Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: shadowblade on February 04, 2016, 10:17:19 pm
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Looks like a few of the lenses some of us have been waiting for are about to be released, and the samples look pretty good.
Sony are also claiming even higher resolution, with fewer aberrations and smoother bokeh: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/motoyuji-ohtake-interviewed-by-dpreview-and-ir-gm-lenses-are-made-for-future-high-res-cameras/
I wonder how they stack up against the Nikon 24-70 and Canon 70-200, as well as how close they get to the best Zeiss primes. Anyone seen any MTF charts yet?
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Surely excellent lenses, but they appear to completely kill the compact aspect of the a7 system.
A 5Ds with the 85mm f1.2 is shorter than the a7rII with the 85mm f1.4...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Surely excellent lenses, but they appear to completely kill the compact aspect of the a7 system.
A 5Ds with the 85mm f1.2 is shorter than the a7rII with the 85mm f1.4...
Cheers,
Bernard
Compactness was never the point of these lenses. If you want a compact system, you have other options.
These appear to be designed for performance - something many of us have wanted for a long time to go with the high-performance (sensor-wise, at least) bodies. And, with the non-sensor aspects of the A7 bodies improving with every iteration, as well as a rumoured full-featured body being developed, it will be great to have some high-performance lenses that can take advantage of every aspect of Sony's system - hybrid AF, eye-focus AF, better overall AF performance and anything else they come up with that takes advantage of the through-the-sensor nature of a mirrorless system.
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Posted a similar topic here yesterday:
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=107932.0
For the forum managers, should we discuss these lenses here, or in the Compact System Cameras forum?
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Surely excellent lenses, but they appear to completely kill the compact aspect of the a7 system.
A 5Ds with the 85mm f1.2 is shorter than the a7rII with the 85mm f1.4...
Cheers,
Bernard
I think "kill" is exaggerated. All one has to do to get better balance is to grip the camera. IMO, it is a matter of providing options to a wider clientele. Want a compact set up? A7 camera with say the FE 35 f2.8; a lot smaller than say a 6D with pancake 40 f2.8.
F2.8 zooms were a glaring omission from the system thus far. As for the 85 f1.4, I think it is more a status lens, rather than a necessity, given the Batis 85. Even then, Sony does not see one cent from the Batis sales, so they want to go there too.
Curiously, the 85 f1.4 is part of this new G Master lens line, whereas the previous Zony 35 f1.4 was not. The G lenses seem to be 100% Sony, no input from Zeiss.
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While it is VERY unlikely I will buy one of the G lenses due to their size, you have to give Sony a lot of credit for making them. The statement about their being able to judge results of design changes via their software without having to actually make the lens is pretty impressive. Between Zeiss and Sony, the Nikon and Canon folks have some very worthy competition. 8)
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I'll buy whichever of the Sony GM 85 mm or Zeiss Batis 85 mm are first actually available in the UK!
I've had the Batis on order since before Xmas... I wonder if the Sony will actually ship first :)
I'm not especially interested in the 24-70 or 70-200 f/2.8 zooms. I might have gone for the 70-200 if I'd not purchased the f/4 version recently- although the weight saving is considerable compared with the f/2.8 and I usually use that lens in the mountains.
But great to see Sony filling out its lens lineup; personally I'd like to see something around 135 mm f/2 too. And I might collect the macro at some point.
Cheers, Hywel
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Surely excellent lenses, but they appear to completely kill the compact aspect of the a7 system.
A 5Ds with the 85mm f1.2 is shorter than the a7rII with the 85mm f1.4...
Cheers,
Bernard
I think these are not designed for compactness, but from what I hear on the rumor sites, bleeding edge resolution.
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Hi,
I will be more enthusiastic when I have seen some measured data from respected testing sites.
Best regards
Erik
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Hi BC,
I am not that familiar with the A7sII. So I may be off, but with the A7rII if you are using a Sony A-mount SSM lens like the 24-70 2.8 ZA then you should use the LA-EA3, as this allows the use of the cameras focus system (and all its lovely goodness), not the AF module in the adaptor like the LA-EA4 (which sucks to be honest). You only need to use the LA-EA4 if your lens has a screw drive.
You should check the LA-EA3 out, if it works with the A7sII in the same manner as the A7rII then it is a huge improvement.
Kind regards,
Jason.
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The new lenses appear to be focus by wire ?
Ridiculous for lenses of this quality.
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Focus by wire is not bad if properly done.
Best regards
Erik
The new lenses appear to be focus by wire ?
Ridiculous for lenses of this quality.
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The new lenses appear to be focus by wire ?
Ridiculous for lenses of this quality.
Looks like they've got mechanical focus rings.
The 85/1.4 even has a mechanical aperture ring, which can be switched between going in steps (i.e. 2.0 to 2.2 to 2.5 to 2.8 and nothing in between) or adjusting smoothly.
I hope this is impetus for Sigma to start releasing its Art-series lenses in native FE mount (thus allowing Sony's AF system to be used to its full capability), so that we no longer have to rely on adapters.
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Looks like they've got mechanical focus rings.
Any particular confirmation or hint for this? (So it did when they announced the FE35/1.4, yet it turned out to be the focus-by-wire ring... Not a big fan of those; although, yes, you learn to live with that)
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Any particular confirmation or hint for this? (So it did when they announced the FE35/1.4, yet it turned out to be the focus-by-wire ring... Not a big fan of those; although, yes, you learn to live with that)
You mean apart from the fact that it would be absurdly stupid to do that?
Also, why would you go to the trouble of adding a mechanical aperture ring to a lens - with a click switch, no less - only to then make its use far less tactile by making it focus-by-wire?
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Check out the latest TCS video at the Sony event. Jordan the video guy mentions that the new lenses are focus by wire.
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Hi BC,
Yes the Sonys are a work in progress, which is why I don't have one yet. Shame the A7sII is contrast detect only. Perhaps the III will be the one to get. :)
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Hi,
It is about sensor technology, newer technology works better phase detection.
Best regards
Erik
Hi BC,
Yes the Sonys are a work in progress, which is why I don't have one yet. Shame the A7sII is contrast detect only. Perhaps the III will be the one to get. :)
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I think Sony is on the Iphone schedule, or in other words consumer electronics.
Ship, send, wait . . . then ship send wait . . .
That's their business model, can't knock it if it works, but for a user that has work to do, waiting for the right use camera is not an option.
I'll see what Canon does next. If the 1dxII is really a multimedia camera for professionals and the footage holds up in post i'm good, if not I'll stay with what I have and probably ad a C300II.
IMO
BC
Lots of pros around here using the A7II/r/rII/s right now. Particularly the A7II and A7rII, it seems, for everything from wedding videography, to studio work, to even photography, to landscapes and architectural work (for the latter, it's pretty much a no-brainer). It doesn't work for some things (chiefly fast action, I don't know anything about video), but, for the areas it works in, it does extremely well. There's a reason so many people are showing up to paid shoots these days with Sony bodies and non-Sony lenses.
It's definitely a work in progress, though.
I'd say the release schedule is more like that of an emerging, rapidly-progressing product than that of a consumer product. Canon/Nikon only release a 1Dx or D800 every three years or so because, any less than that, it wouldn't be worth upgrading. Even with a three year cycle, the improvements are largely incremental, since it's a mature product - there are more improvements between Sony cameras 1 year apart than between Canon cameras 3 years apart. Once mirrorless technology - specifically, the speed and accuracy of AF and intelligent acquisition and tracking (face detect, eye detect, detect animal, follow red cars only, etc.) - becomes more mature, I'd also expect Sony to settle into a slower product cycle.
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Hi,
I don't understand the complaints about Sony's rapid update cycle. They have two generations of A7 models. First generation was:
- A7 - base model
- A7r - high resolution model
- A7s - model optimised for low light and video
At that time I skipped the A7 series as I felt that the sensor in the A7r lacked some modern features like PDAF and EFCS. I had both of the features on my Alpha 99 and was aware of their benefits.
So now we have a new generation of cameras, much improved in many senses. A much improved sensor came along with A7rII.
- A7II - base model
- A7rII - high resolution model
- A7sII - model optimised for low light and video
It may have been better if the first series were more finished and there may have been less need for a second generation. But I don't see why Sony needs bashing for updating their product line.
Best regards
Erik
Lots of pros around here using the A7II/r/rII/s right now. Particularly the A7II and A7rII, it seems, for everything from wedding videography, to studio work, to even photography, to landscapes and architectural work (for the latter, it's pretty much a no-brainer). It doesn't work for some things (chiefly fast action, I don't know anything about video), but, for the areas it works in, it does extremely well. There's a reason so many people are showing up to paid shoots these days with Sony bodies and non-Sony lenses.
It's definitely a work in progress, though.
I'd say the release schedule is more like that of an emerging, rapidly-progressing product than that of a consumer product. Canon/Nikon only release a 1Dx or D800 every three years or so because, any less than that, it wouldn't be worth upgrading. Even with a three year cycle, the improvements are largely incremental, since it's a mature product - there are more improvements between Sony cameras 1 year apart than between Canon cameras 3 years apart. Once mirrorless technology - specifically, the speed and accuracy of AF and intelligent acquisition and tracking (face detect, eye detect, detect animal, follow red cars only, etc.) - becomes more mature, I'd also expect Sony to settle into a slower product cycle.
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Check out the latest TCS video at the Sony event. Jordan the video guy mentions that the new lenses are focus by wire.
That seems a bit odd.
Still, it matters much less for a mirrorless lens than for an SLR lens, since, without the camera being on, you can't see anything in the viewfinder anyway. As long as it's just as instantly responsive as a mechanical focus ring, and has the same tactile feel.
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That seems a bit odd [focus by wire].
Sony is, among other things, aiming at eliminating mechanical complexity (and thus extra co$t) so IMO this makes sense.
-Dave-
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Sony is, among other things, aiming at eliminating mechanical complexity (and thus extra co$t) so IMO this makes sense.
Margins are an important target for Sony considering their overall financial situation. They aim for high value equipment selling at premium price with high margins. So it does make sense.
Besides, I believe that they designed these lenses under the assumption that they would be autofocused most of the time considering the advantages of mirrorless in terms of focusing (that I would summarize with eye detection).
Cheers,
Bernard
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Sony is, among other things, aiming at eliminating mechanical complexity (and thus extra co$t) so IMO this makes sense.
-Dave-
Focus-by-wire is adding mechanical complexity, not taking it away. You still have a focus ring. Only that, instead of moving the lens elements directly, turning it drives a motor that then moves the elements. Which requires more mechanical parts as well as more circuitry.
That's just another thing that can fail. I've had AF fail in a lens during a long trip before. Fortunately, I was able to MF for the rest of the trip and come back with great photos. Had the lens been completely unusable, I'd probably have abandoned the rest of the $15k trip and come home, since there'd be little point in continuing if I couldn't shoot anything. And, unlike bodies (where you will usually have a backup), you don't normally carry more than one of the same lens on a trip.
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Have you had a look at http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/12/sony-fe-35mm-f1-4-za-lens-teardown ?
It's fascinating. The Sony FE lenses genuinely do focus in a completely different way from everyone else's.
As Roger says, he doesn't know whether it is better or worse, and neither do you or I, and Sony probably don't know yet either.
But they are trying to do something different, and that's why these lenses are fly-by-wire: the lens elements are moved electro-magnetically instead of mechanically.
You are right that AF reliability might be an issue especially for long trips. I think unless I was really carting everything on my back the whole time I'd have a full backup with me, at least to cover my most common shooting lengths. A spare body with a 24-240 or 24-70 or whatever, or a Panasonic GH4 and 7-14, 12-35, 55-200 would probably be my minimum choice of backup on any significant trip. (Normally I take my Hasselblad kit, plus A7RII and 28, 55, 70-200. From now on I'll be adding the 24-240 as well).
I always try to avoid a single point of failure, so we try to travel with two MacBooks, enough cards to cover the whole trip if we can't offload, etc.. Batteries are about the only thing I don't take enough of to cover the whole trip (although maybe I should!)
Cheers, Hywel
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Hi,
Everything can fail.
Now Sony's technology is new (at least in this context) so lesson will be learned.
There is a reason for using linear drives, CDAF requires very fast movement of the focusing element. CDAF is possible with normal focusing like USM but it would be slow.
Very clearly, USM/HSM/SSM lenses may focus manually if USM/HSM/SSM fails. But if aperture control fails the lens may also become less than usable.
Best regards
Erik
Focus-by-wire is adding mechanical complexity, not taking it away. You still have a focus ring. Only that, instead of moving the lens elements directly, turning it drives a motor that then moves the elements. Which requires more mechanical parts as well as more circuitry.
That's just another thing that can fail. I've had AF fail in a lens during a long trip before. Fortunately, I was able to MF for the rest of the trip and come back with great photos. Had the lens been completely unusable, I'd probably have abandoned the rest of the $15k trip and come home, since there'd be little point in continuing if I couldn't shoot anything. And, unlike bodies (where you will usually have a backup), you don't normally carry more than one of the same lens on a trip.
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Hi,
Everything can fail.
Now Sony's technology is new (at least in this context) so lesson will be learned.
There is a reason for using linear drives, CDAF requires very fast movement of the focusing element. CDAF is possible with normal focusing like USM but it would be slow.
Very clearly, USM/HSM/SSM lenses may focus manually if USM/HSM/SSM fails. But if aperture control fails the lens may also become less than usable.
Best regards
Erik
Any reason why it can't be mechanically linked to a focus ring, rather than relying on an electronic link?
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Hi,
The more things you add the more probable failure will be…
Most cameras today have electronically operated apertures, as electronic control is needed for fully automatic exposure. Also, we really want view and focus at full aperture and expose stopped down. So, some version of automatic aperture is needed and it has been a standard since 1960-es.
Just some oil on the aperture blades would stop the automatic aperture from working. To put it in perspective, I have been taking pictures since 1965 and had something like 50 lenses until today and aperture only failed in one. Bayonet needed replacement on a 1985 generation lens and automatic aperture failed on a Hasselblad CF lens I used to have. Other than that I had no lens repairs/failures.
I guess that modern lenses may be more prone to failure, though.
Lenses that are used stopped down all the time (like Leica M-lenses) may be less prone to failed aperture. But I know of some cases where Leica S system had malfunctioning apertures.
The way I see it, any component of any system may fail. 2012 I was on a trip to the US, my tripod mount on the 70-400/4-5.6 G got stuck and my brand new RRS tripod came all loose first day. I could repair both in the evening…
Best regards
Erik
Any reason why it can't be mechanically linked to a focus ring, rather than relying on an electronic link?
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Any reason why it can't be mechanically linked to a focus ring, rather than relying on an electronic link?
The way they have done it, yes. The lens element is purely a component in a linear electric motor. It isn't moved mechanically, it is moved directly by the action of an electro-magnet on the lens element.
That's not amenable to any sort of mechanical link. Because the lens element is moved directly by an electro-magnetic signal, it HAS to be fly-by-wire. You have to translate from any sort of physical mechanical control input to an electric signal, because the electric signal directly moves the focussing element of the lens.
It's not translating a physical movement to an electrical one then using a motor to rotate a traditional helical focus system. The electric signal moves the lens element directly.
Really, their only choice once they had decided to opt for that system was whether to provide a free-rotating ring, or provide physical stops. Presumably the free-rotating ring is easier for them to do, so they did that.
Cheers, Hywel