Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: ErikKaffehr on January 24, 2016, 02:41:20 am

Title: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 24, 2016, 02:41:20 am
Hi,

Some interesting things going in recent times. Both Canon and Sony has released new cameras in 2015 which move in the low end MFD territory in resolution.

On the other hand used MFD backs may be much more affordable today than two and a half years ago when I bought mine. Old Hasselblad lenses are available at very affordable prices.

I have made a few comparison shots with my best lenses on both systems, I think they are pretty close. On the Hasselblad I used the Planar 100/3.5, which is known as a very good lens, when used at long distances. The other lens I used was the Macro Planar 120/4 that is corrected for the close up range. From each image I have a "focus crop" and a "bokeh crop".

Doug Peterson, over at Digital Transitions published a studio shot with modern Phase One backs and lenses but also including a Pentax 645Z, Canon 5DsR and Sony A7rII. That test demonstrates the superiority of modern MFD when it works best. Doug's test used a very good setup and a fair comparison. I was much impressed with the Schneider lens used on the Phase One XF. Quite a bit better than what I would have expected. https://digitaltransitions.com/massive-still-life-shootout/

P45+ Planar 100/3.5 - f/8A7rII + Sony 90/2.8G - f/5.6
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/P45+_vs_a7rII/FocusCrop20160123-CF047059.jpg)(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/P45+_vs_a7rII/FocusCrop20160123-_DSC4107.jpg)
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/P45+_vs_a7rII/BokehCrop20160123-CF047059.jpg)(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/P45+_vs_a7rII/BokehCrop20160123-_DSC4107.jpg)

P45+ Macro Planar 120/4 - f/11Sony A7rII + Sony 90/2.8G - f/8
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/P45+_vs_a7rII/20151225-CF047043_focus_crop.jpg)(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/P45+_vs_a7rII/20151225-_DSC3485_focus_crop.jpg)
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/P45+_vs_a7rII/20151225-CF047043_bokeh_crop.jpg)(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/P45+_vs_a7rII/20151225-_DSC3485_bokeh_crop.jpg)

Just to say, these images are not intended as artistic samples, although I actually like the 20151225 images.

Raw files are here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/P45+_vs_a7rII/

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: Zorki5 on January 24, 2016, 10:34:42 am
Just to say, these images are not intended as artistic samples, although I actually like the 20151225 images.

Not sure what you meant by "20151225 images", but IMHO A7RII images are very noticeably better.
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 24, 2016, 12:04:01 pm
Hi Zorki5,

The image would look something like below.

In a sense, the idea is not to say which image is better but to give some kind of idea about the image quality from each system.

Best regards
Erik

Not sure what you meant by "20151225 images", but IMHO A7RII images are very noticeably better.
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: Zorki5 on January 24, 2016, 12:27:18 pm
In a sense, the idea is not to say which image is better but to give some kind of idea about the image quality from each system.

I understand   :D  What I'm saying is that, to me, image quality from A7RII is better.
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 24, 2016, 05:14:05 pm
Hi,

Your opinion is much appreciated! Thank you very much!

Best regards
Erik

I understand   :D  What I'm saying is that, to me, image quality from A7RII is better.
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: uaiomex on January 24, 2016, 09:22:35 pm
I agree with Zorki.
I think it is unfortunate for the sensor size hierarchy but the Sony combo is visibly sharper.
Eduardo


Hi,

Your opinion is much appreciated! Thank you very much!

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: Colorado David on January 24, 2016, 09:53:43 pm
I agree with the others regarding sharpness, but I also prefer the Sony for color and contrast.
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 24, 2016, 10:07:32 pm
Hi,

Some of that depends on processing, I tried to make them similar, without favouring any of them. Foremost I had no WB reference when shooting. The first pair where white balanced on snow behind the subject.

Thanks for your findings.

Best regards
Erik

I agree with the others regarding sharpness, but I also prefer the Sony for color and contrast.
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on January 25, 2016, 12:18:37 am
the sharpness on the P45+ is softer than on the Sony, and I also think color contrast maybe better...if you look at the 3rd and fourth frames with spiky grass.

here is another compare...

https://youtu.be/Ku8xRf72xFA
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 25, 2016, 02:18:02 am
Hi Phil,

Thanks for that video.

Something no one seems to have discussed is the "bokeh", which is most obvious in the forth row of images. These shots were at "equivalent" apertures f/11 on the P45 and f/8 on the Sony.

To me, the amount of bokeh looks very similar. I don't know about the "look" of the bokeh, though. Neither is truly horrible, but these are medium aperture shots.

Best regards
Erik

the sharpness on the P45+ is softer than on the Sony, and I also think color contrast maybe better...if you look at the 3rd and fourth frames with spiky grass.

here is another compare...

https://youtu.be/Ku8xRf72xFA
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: John Lytton on January 25, 2016, 03:43:23 pm
Hi Erik,

I went through a similar exercise when I acquired my Canon 5DsR and comparing to my Contax 645 IQ160.  Adjusting distance for equivalent lens focal lengths and format differences as much as practical, I used a Sigma 70mm F/2.8 macro on the 5DsR and a  Zeiss 120mm F/4 Apo Makro Planar on the Contax.

I was shocked how close the Canon system came to the Contax in terms of resolution.  So much so that I was "forced" to upgrade to a IQ180 to maintain a more clear resolution advantage. ;-)

Maybe a 60MP XF system might show a bit more resolution advantage than the Contax, but it's clear to me that The Sony and the Canon are defintely in what was exclusively 39-60 MP MFD territory, resolution-wise.

The attached jpegs are 100% crops of my test.  (Grayscale just save on space)  Looking at the images at 200% is really the only way to see any differences, and others may even disagree with me on which is actually sharper.

Regards,

John
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 30, 2016, 03:52:08 am
Hi John,

Thanks for posting your comparison. Nice to have affordable alternatives at 40-50 MP. It seems that Sigma makes quite a few really good lenses.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik,

I went through a similar exercise when I acquired my Canon 5DsR and comparing to my Contax 645 IQ160.  Adjusting distance for equivalent lens focal lengths and format differences as much as practical, I used a Sigma 70mm F/2.8 macro on the 5DsR and a  Zeiss 120mm F/4 Apo Makro Planar on the Contax.

I was shocked how close the Canon system came to the Contax in terms of resolution.  So much so that I was "forced" to upgrade to a IQ180 to maintain a more clear resolution advantage. ;-)

Maybe a 60MP XF system might show a bit more resolution advantage than the Contax, but it's clear to me that The Sony and the Canon are defintely in what was exclusively 39-60 MP MFD territory, resolution-wise.

The attached jpegs are 100% crops of my test.  (Grayscale just save on space)  Looking at the images at 200% is really the only way to see any differences, and others may even disagree with me on which is actually sharper.

Regards,

John
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 21, 2016, 05:20:14 pm
Hi,

Just want to say thanks for all postings.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: Alan Klein on February 21, 2016, 05:42:22 pm
Clyde Butcher is now shooting digital with the A7R.  I've seem some really impressive digital large prints from them in his Florida gallery. 
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on February 21, 2016, 08:13:14 pm
Great samples to look at...thanks Erik, and John.

The Contax does look sharper/ flat, and I hope with a Zeiss120 it better.
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: uaiomex on February 21, 2016, 08:22:11 pm
Is he shooting stitches with Actus?


Clyde Butcher is now shooting digital with the A7R.  I've seem some really impressive digital large prints from them in his Florida gallery.
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 21, 2016, 10:34:53 pm
Hi,

It seems both lenses "outresolve" the sensor, very clearly the Contax 645/120/IQ-160 combo has a bit higher resolution, corresponding to the 60MP vs 50MP advantage.

But as John says it is close. The Sigma 70/2.8 macro John used in his test is a very good lens, may be on my shopping list.

Best regards
Erik

Great samples to look at...thanks Erik, and John.

The Contax does look sharper/ flat, and I hope with a Zeiss120 it better.
Title: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 22, 2016, 12:51:04 am
Hi,

A small reflection. The differences I see are very small. When pixel peeping on the screen we scrutinise an image that would be around 50"x70" on the wall (assuming a pixel pitch 100 PPI on the monitor).

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: Alan Klein on February 22, 2016, 12:53:44 am
Is he shooting stitches with Actus?


I believe he does.   But not sure if all of them are stitched.
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: uaiomex on February 22, 2016, 10:53:42 pm
Thanks Alan. It is kind of fantastic to think that a great landscape photographer familiar to shoot bigger than 8X10 and to print verrry large is now using digital 35.
I'd love to hear whatever Clyde can say about his experiences with the Sony.
Eduardo


I believe he does.   But not sure if all of them are stitched.
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: Alan Klein on February 22, 2016, 11:20:27 pm
Butcher's getting old.  LF equipment appears to be pretty heavy for him nowadays, it appears.  You got to do what you got to do.
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: uaiomex on February 24, 2016, 11:10:00 pm
Right, we're all getting older. Myself now shooting a lot more from the A6000 than from the EOS in part for the heft. But if quality was not there, I would be mainly using the EOS gear or as a matter of fact the Hasselblad V with Velvia or the Tachihara 4X5 with Astia.
Eduardo

Butcher's getting old.  LF equipment appears to be pretty heavy for him nowadays, it appears.  You got to do what you got to do.
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: synn on February 25, 2016, 05:11:43 am
I agree with Zorki.
I think it is unfortunate for the sensor size hierarchy but the Sony combo is visibly sharper.
Eduardo

It has a lot less to do with the sensor hierarchy than what's in front of the sensor.
I have seen much sharper images from the P45+ mated to a more modern body and lenses than what Erik usually posts.

Not a knock on Erik, just that when you use legacy gear, expect legacy results.
Title: Re: Some comparisons between my Sony Alpha A7rII and my Hasselblad V and P45+ back
Post by: ErikKaffehr on February 25, 2016, 04:59:54 pm
Hi Synn,

The lens I used for the large tree trunk was shot with the Hasselblad Zeiss 100/3.5, it is known to be one of Hasselblad's sharpest lenses. Hasselblad compares this lens with the HC2.2 100/3.5 at infinity here:
http://static.hasselblad.com/2015/02/the_evolution_of_lenses.pdf

Now, what Hasselblad writes about the lens is not very relevant for my sample. On the other hand, I have shot my sample on the A7rII and it performs really well, it outresolves the Sony sensor and it is a good match for the Sony 90/2.8G.

I have also developed the P45+ image with Capture One 9.0.2 using default sharpening, it oversharpens quite a bit, check the enclosed MTF. MTF between 0 and 40 lp/mm exceeds 1.0, which means oversharpening. LR 6 is nearly ideal in this case. But LR 6 has a lot more colour aliasing than C1.

These shots were about finding out the lens and all shots were at approximately at 50x focal length.

John Lytton has also posted a comparison, using a Canon 5DsR with a Sigma 70/2.8 macro and a Zeiss 120/4 APO Macro Planar, with a Contax 645 and an IQ160. He also found those images similar.
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=107680.msg886251#msg886251

Now, the Zeiss 120/4 APO Macro may also be regarded to be a legacy lens but it is a modern design, with floating elements and said to have apochromatic correction.

Best regards
Erik

Sorry for technical stuff, I know you dislike curves and technical discussion, but being an engineer I find that a curve says more than 1000 web size images.

So I enclose and image that is utterly irrelevant in the context but has been take a few hours ago:
(https://echophoto.smugmug.com/Landscapes/Sweden/Winter/i-GZDWqP2/0/X3/20160225-_DSC4326-Pano-X3.jpg)







It has a lot less to do with the sensor hierarchy than what's in front of the sensor.
I have seen much sharper images from the P45+ mated to a more modern body and lenses than what Erik usually posts.

Not a knock on Erik, just that when you use legacy gear, expect legacy results.