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Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: dreed on December 29, 2015, 05:29:54 pm

Title: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: dreed on December 29, 2015, 05:29:54 pm
Cost of inkjet printing (http://www.redrivercatalog.com/cost-of-inkjet-printing.html)
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 29, 2015, 05:51:08 pm
I looked through that quickly. Seems to me it is focused only on ink. If you are putting high quality paper through that printer, the cost of paper will exceed the cost of ink by a considerable margin, then depending on throughput the amount to add for depreciation of the printer itself is not insignificant and finally there is wastage from editing errors, the cost of which you need to add to the cost of the prints you keep. I have kept a pretty careful track of all this for 4900 and using Ilford Gold Fibre Silk paper I figure my costs in Canadian dollars are about 1.85 for a single US-Letter size print. The breakdown in CAD is: Depreciation 0.17; Paper 1.32; Ink 0.36. A separate calculation would need to be done for the P800 because the amortization would be lower. But this gives you a fair handle on home printing cost using high quality material.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Eric Myrvaagnes on December 29, 2015, 07:57:49 pm
What I like about the Red River report is that my ancient Epson 3800 seems to cost less (for ink) than any other printer in the list.

For some months now I have used relatively inexpensive Red River papers for initial printing and to show friends, savin the Gold Fibre SilK or Canson Baryta for exhibitions.

Mark's calculations are very helpful in getting a handle on the real costs of prints.

Eric
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: MHMG on December 29, 2015, 09:48:52 pm
Here's how I have started to approach the cost of personal/home printing:

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/p600-part-ii/

The data presented is for the Epson SC P600 using the Epson OEM ink. I'm also working on a similar study for the Canon Pro-1, and Canon Pro-100 printers as well but have not yet published.  I hope to add the Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 into the mix this year as well but still raising funds to purchase those new models.   I am using my delivered cost of the printer (B&H Photo price with no rebates, shipping was free) and inks in the plotted amortization curve. The current rebates on this printer would, of course, get you to a lower point on the amortization curve in fewer prints, but the curve is also slowly going asymptotic to the eventual minimum cost per print level which will be essentially independent of the original printer cost unless of course the printer breaks soon ;).

I am now up to about 160 prints on the P600 and the curve is still coming down as projected in the graph when less prints had been made. I'm still not completely out of all the original inks, but nevertheless, I am well into the second set I purchased for this printer.  To date, the printer has caused two reject prints (equivalent to three 8x10 inch borderless prints). They will get accounted for in the next update of the graph.

One rejected print was caused by a dropped wifi connection.  The other was an ink dribble about .5 mm in diameter in the margin of a 13x19 print.  I could have saved that print for personal display but not if it was intended for sale or for gift where only perfect prints will do. Rejects are realities in home printing as well that often don't get considered. Using good color management practices, I don't have a high personal reject rate, but I'm only accounting for the costs of rejected prints when the printer operation is to blame.  One can multiply any point on the graph by a personal yield factor to end up with your own actual final cost per print.  My personal print quality yield is over 95%.  So far so good with the P600. It has been pretty reliable so far, but the ink dribble I mentioned on one recent print may be a sign that some DIY printer maintenance will have to occur in the not too distant future.

Lastly, with the P600 PK/MK ink switching conundrum, one can waste lots more ink than the Epson specs account for if one is not careful. The printer will not allow the switch if any cartridge is low (not critically low, just low with the ink level indicator registering about 5% remaining). One cartridge almost always seems to be low on this printer, so the end user will have a tough time switching without wasting more ink than the specification says unless you are willing to remove the low cartridge(s), add new ones, switch, then remove new cartridge(s) and replace with old ones until fully consumed. That approach doesn't seem particularly practical to me, but I'm about to find out :(  My wasted ink will get accounted for in the study, but others may waste more or less than me depending on how often they wish to switch and how much hastle they are willing to put up with when setting aside and then reinstalling ink cartridges. I also worry somewhat that reinstalling the older cartridges may invite clogging issues, but I don't really know. I will be discussing the ink swap issue at length in the next update of the cited article.

I hope to post more updated information on this project in the next couple of weeks, so check back if you are interested in this approach to home printing costs.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: GrahamBy on December 30, 2015, 05:37:33 am
Of course what is not included in this is that if you print at home, you will print more, just for the joy of seeing the prints :-)

Which for those of us not actually making money from photography, is pretty much the point of the exercise :-)
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Jager on December 30, 2015, 07:06:16 am
Of course what is not included in this is that if you print at home, you will print more, just for the joy of seeing the prints :-)

Which for those of us not actually making money from photography, is pretty much the point of the exercise :-)

This.  Plus the reality that non-printmaking-photographers must accept "good enough" from a lab; or else leave an image un-printed.

To me, the ability to print at will - iteratively, if necessary, in order to achieve the ultimate best I and my image are capable of - is priceless.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: MHMG on December 30, 2015, 08:40:23 am
This.  Plus the reality that non-printmaking-photographers must accept "good enough" from a lab; or else leave an image un-printed.

To me, the ability to print at will - iteratively, if necessary, in order to achieve the ultimate best I and my image are capable of - is priceless.

Agreed. I've made almost all of my own prints for over forty years. I have always believed that creating my own finished work was a very personal and important part of my photography.

Also not included in my print cost evaluation is all the supporting costs of computers, monitors, scanners, cameras, albums, framing materials, flat file cabinets, dedicated space in one's home, etc., but on a total amortized basis for serious photography as a hobby, those other supporting expenses are pretty much also needed whether you use an outside lab or DIY.  Photography is indeed an expensive hobby, but come to think of it, I don't know of any cheap hobbies these days :)

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Herbc on December 30, 2015, 10:11:28 am
Amen about printing.  Having been in LF for decades, it never occurred to me that one would want to only have digital images floating around on a screen.
As to being an expensive hobby, ask a serious fisherman about his costs. 8)
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Dan Vincent on December 30, 2015, 03:30:45 pm
Talk about a small world, Mark, your studio is right down the street from where my sister used to live in Lee. I grew up in Pittsfield, so it's nice to see a kindred spirit.

Quote
Lastly, with the P600 PK/MK ink switching conundrum, one can waste lots more ink than the Epson specs account for if one is not careful. The printer will not allow the switch if any cartridge is low (not critically low, just low with the ink level indicator registering about 5% remaining). One cartridge almost always seems to be low on this printer, so the end user will have a tough time switching without wasting more ink than the specification says unless you are willing to remove the low cartridge(s), add new ones, switch, then remove new cartridge(s) and replace with old ones until fully consumed. That approach doesn't seem particularly practical to me, but I'm about to find out :(  My wasted ink will get accounted for in the study, but others may waste more or less than me depending on how often they wish to switch and how much hastle they are willing to put up with when setting aside and then reinstalling ink cartridges. I also worry somewhat that reinstalling the older cartridges may invite clogging issues, but I don't really know. I will be discussing the ink swap issue at length in the next update of the cited article.

I'm sure the P-series printers also do this, but the 3880 does a MK/PK switch every six months, regardless of whether or not you want to. So even if you never use MK ink, it will consume ink as it switches from MK and back.

I've been trying to keep track of my materials usage since procuring a 3880 a few years ago, and I've found that the Red River numbers are pretty good for average coverage prints. My prints don't always fall within that boundary, but I'd say it's a reasonable shorthand for the cost of ink only to give someone the idea of ink costs. Ink is a constant, while paper is a variable, as we're not making every single print on fine art paper. Mark's graph is excellent at showing this.

Desktop printers can have a tough calculus for users who aren't generating revenue. Even with generating revenue there is a certain floor where it still makes sense to get prints done in bulk. But this is an art, so money shouldn't be the primary factor in deciding what to do unless you are on the border of affordability. Indeed, there are no cheap hobbies these days!
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: adias on December 30, 2015, 04:30:04 pm
These cost studies are interesting and useful, but I think they apply for high volume printing. By high volume I mean daily printing or at least several prints per week. I, and many others do not print for weeks. Printer idling adds to the cost because the non-clogging printers are running ink periodically, and the clogging printers... oh those need to go through de-clogging runs. In my experience that uses a lot of ink.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Jeff-Grant on December 30, 2015, 05:55:30 pm
I'm sure the P-series printers also do this, but the 3880 does a MK/PK switch every six months, regardless of whether or not you want to. So even if you never use MK ink, it will consume ink as it switches from MK and back.



Dan, I'm surprised to read this. It is something that I have never seen happen. I'm not doubting you for a minute but I'm surprised that I have not noticed it happen. Other than exercising the ink selector, I can't see what the swap would achieve.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: alain on December 30, 2015, 06:00:53 pm
These cost studies are interesting and useful, but I think they apply for high volume printing. By high volume I mean daily printing or at least several prints per week. I, and many others do not print for weeks. Printer idling adds to the cost because the non-clogging printers are running ink periodically, and the clogging printers... oh those need to go through de-clogging runs. In my experience that uses a lot of ink.

Calculating print cost for really low volume printing  is not easy, maybe not possible.  As long you're volume is lower (or close to) the "minimum volume" for the printer, it can be cheaper to print than not to print.  Printing a few small prints, on a cheaper rc-paper,  every week that you're not doing "fine-art" work, will be better than not printing.  I also found that those prints can be good gifts.

Things change when somebody ask you a favour for doing 10 A2 fine art prints for a small "exhibition", then you have to have an idea what you're cost for those prints is.  At least when it's a favour.  For a business labor cost will take a large portion of the cost and the "exact" calculation for inkt will be far less important.

A very uncertain question is how long the printer itself will live and how much prints it will deliver.

BTW. My now retired 3800 had between 20 and 30% of it's used ink unaccounted for (aka wastebin) and I printed weekly, at least a 11" by 16.5" or more.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: alain on December 30, 2015, 06:04:17 pm
I'm sure the P-series printers also do this, but the 3880 does a MK/PK switch every six months, regardless of whether or not you want to. So even if you never use MK ink, it will consume ink as it switches from MK and back.



Dan, I'm surprised to read this. It is something that I have never seen happen. I'm not doubting you for a minute but I'm surprised that I have not noticed it happen. Other than exercising the ink selector, I can't see what the swap would achieve.

I've seen it to on a 3800 and after some (5?) years it started to dump more MK, until the original cartridge was empty and replaced. 
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Dan Vincent on December 30, 2015, 06:36:30 pm
Dan, I'm surprised to read this. It is something that I have never seen happen. I'm not doubting you for a minute but I'm surprised that I have not noticed it happen. Other than exercising the ink selector, I can't see what the swap would achieve.

You'll only notice it as the printer taking a far longer time to start up and ready than usual. I never print with MK on my 3880 (other printers do MK work) and it's already consumed a third of the MK cart over two years. My understanding is that it does this to make sure there's at least some fresh/non-stagnant MK ink in the MK line and that you can change over in the future, if you decide to.

I don't know if doing a manual MK/PK change resets the timer on this, but I do know that the printer will do it on a six month schedule if you don't do manual switches.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Rand47 on December 30, 2015, 07:35:02 pm
Quote
Other than exercising the ink selector, I can't see what the swap would achieve.

I'm not sure if my R3000 did this swapping exercise automatically... but I can tell you this - after printing PK exclusively for about 7 months, I switched over to MK for a few days to make a client some prints.  Worked fine.  Switched back to PK and it killed the printer dead.  Stone dead, not fixable by Epson service provider dead.  Doorstop dead.  Paperweight dead. 

The printer was just out of warranty, of course.  Ended up as e-waste.  The service center didn't even want it for free for parts.   This was a fairly lightly used printer, in pristine condition otherwise.

So, perhaps an auto swap is designed to prevent this?

Rand
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Jeff-Grant on December 30, 2015, 07:59:17 pm
It's interesting that the swap happens. I know from recent experience with Piezography inks that an ink swap doesn't move enough ink to overcome sedimentation. It can only be to exercise the ink swap mechanism.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 30, 2015, 08:11:06 pm
It's interesting that the swap happens. I know from recent experience with Piezography inks that an ink swap doesn't move enough ink to overcome sedimentation. It can only be to exercise the ink swap mechanism.

Yes, from what I have seen first hand with internals of my 4900, the ink swap happens within the damper using a switch that moves out a really small amount of the one ink and replaces it with the other - almost like how a trolley track can be switched to move the vehicle in one direction or the other. The swap happens when the user switches between matte and gloss papers and according to the technician I have discussed this with, the procedure and the printer are unaffected by how long the one ink or the other may have been dormant, but gently rotating a cartridge that has gone unused for a long while is a good idea.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: MHMG on December 30, 2015, 08:21:48 pm
Talk about a small world, Mark, your studio is right down the street from where my sister used to live in Lee. I grew up in Pittsfield, so it's nice to see a kindred spirit.

If you ever get back to home town, please give me a call and let's get together.

I'm sure the P-series printers also do this, but the 3880 does a MK/PK switch every six months, regardless of whether or not you want to. So even if you never use MK ink, it will consume ink as it switches from MK and back.


My P600 has now been in operation since April 2015, and I pay close attention to its print cycles in order to identify an autoclean cycles. I have not yet noticed an auto ink switch. I did deliberately switch just once from PK to MK and then soon back to PK in order to print a few light fade test samples early on in May, 2015,  so the printer has now been in PK ink mode for several months. MK is still registering full. Hence, if the P600 is programmed to do an automatic ink swap occasionally, it's a very low frequency indeed, and not cause for much concern since it doesn't affect the economics of ownership in any significant way. User requested deliberate ink swap decisions are another matter, and cause for concern for anyone who likes to print regularly on both matte and glossy media.  In that situation, one would be best served by purchasing the SC P400 instead of the P600 or, sad to say, buying two P600 units in order to dedicate one to Matte papers and one to gloss/luster papers.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 30, 2015, 08:34:24 pm
If you ever get back to home town, please give me a call and let's get together.

My P600 has now been in operation since April 2015, and I pay close attention to its print cycles in order to identify an autoclean cycles. I have not yet noticed an auto ink switch. I did deliberately switch just once from PK to MK and then soon back to PK in order to print a few light fade test samples early on in May, 2015,  so the printer has now been in PK ink mode for several months. MK is still registering full. Hence, if the P600 is programmed to do an automatic ink swap occasionally, it's a very low frequency indeed, and not cause for much concern since it doesn't affect the economics of ownership in any significant way. User requested deliberate ink swap decisions are another matter, and cause for concern for anyone who likes to print regularly on both matte and glossy media.  In that situation, one would be best served by purchasing the SC P400 instead of the P600 or, sad to say, buying two P600 units in order to dedicate one to Matte papers and one to gloss/luster papers.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

The round-trip on an ink switch is generally said to be less than 4 ml. You would need to do one hell of a lot of ink switching to make it worthwhile tying up money in a second printer for this purpose alone.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: MHMG on December 30, 2015, 09:43:20 pm
The round-trip on an ink switch is generally said to be less than 4 ml. You would need to do one hell of a lot of ink switching to make it worthwhile tying up money in a second printer for this purpose alone.

Well, I had four cartridges registering about 5% left when the P600 refused to make the swap due to "low ink cartrdridge" Only one low cartridge of any color is required for the P600 to refuse the PK/MK ink swap.  I decided to keep printing with PK ink and not make the swap to MK when I wanted to.  I have now made well over 30 8x10 equivalent sized prints, and I still have one of those original low cartridges still not fully out of ink and in need of imminent replacement. So, I still can't make a cost-effective PK/MK ink swap which would use Epson's specified 3 ml wastage scenario since I'd also be discarding unused ink in the low cartridge(s). And now, another cartridge is registering in the 5% low territory, so it too will cause the printer to balk at the desired switch condition.  Had I elected to discard those cartridges in order to complete my desire to switch from PK to MK at that time, my best guess at this point is I would have thrown away somewhere between $10 and $15 dollars worth of ink in the low ink cartridges in addition to the 3 ml of ink the printer would then consume from the new cartridges according to Epson's specs.  That tells me that ink switching in the P600 between matt and glossy papers is going to be a deal breaker for folks wanting to regularly print on both types of papers.  One will have to either schedule black ink changes very infrequently on the P600, or be prepared to wait until a relatively narrow window of opportunity occurs when no ink cartridges are getting low, or be prepared to do annoying and possibly clog inducing ink replace-new-swap-replace old-swap-replace new again procedures, or accept well over 3 ml of wasted ink per switch, or buy that second printer to circumvent the issue entirely. Not an easy calculation by any means :(.

This is a problem... just saying, but Canon printers in this desktop printer category aren't necessarily ideal either. The Canon Pro-1, for example, can make the ink swap seamlessly, but it has such very restrictive fine art media margin settings that in all honesty, makes the Pro-1 only truly a good printer for folks who print primarily on luster/glossy media only. There seems to be no free lunch in the 13 inch carriage width printer category at the moment. All of these 13 inch carriage width printers have serious software/hardware flaws. The newest offerings from Epson and Canon in the  17 inch printer class suffer from similar fates I would expect, but I don't own them, so I can't say for sure.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 30, 2015, 09:53:26 pm
What you saw registered isn't necessarily an exact amount. The printer firmware knows whether there is sufficient ink to safely make the swap. Epson always maintains a safety margin of ink in the tank over and above its stated capacity to protect the print-head from the risk of air infiltration. Whenever you run into a "not enough ink" situation at a time when you need to clean the print head or make an ink swap, the simple solution is to swap out the cartridge that is almost empty for a new one, do what you need to do and then replace the old one till it is exhausted. This is a very well known approach which Epson even recommends to prevent people from prematurely disposing of their remaining ink. The cost of an ink switch is the number of ml for the switch times your price per ml. Not more, not less.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: MHMG on December 30, 2015, 10:40:18 pm
What you saw registered isn't necessarily an exact amount. The printer firmware knows whether there is sufficient ink to safely make the swap. Epson always maintains a safety margin of ink in the tank over and above its stated capacity to protect the print-head from the risk of air infiltration. Whenever you run into a "not enough ink" situation at a time when you need to clean the print head or make an ink swap, the simple solution is to swap out the cartridge that is almost empty for a new one, do what you need to do and then replace the old one till it is exhausted. This is a very well known approach which Epson even recommends to prevent people from prematurely disposing of their remaining ink. The cost of an ink switch is the number of ml for the switch times your price per ml. Not more, not less.

I disagree. At best the swap old, put in new, swap new, put in old approach is an incredible PITA which also waste inks as the printer recharges the ink lines, and at worst it may lead to air bubbles in the system that will require additional cleaning cycles. Moreover, after producing well over 30 some 8x10 equivalent sized prints and still not out of the original ink in all four cartridges that registered low at the time I wanted to switch, and recognizing in my amortization study that the inks don't stay in synchronized harmony of fill levels very long, we are discussing a very high probability that the P600 simply won't be ready to make the black ink switch effortlessly when you are unless you are willing to waste more money or more manual labor than Epson would have you believe.  This practical problem is simply glossed over in the Epson printer specifications that seem to indicate the only issue is a mere loss of a few ml of ink during the switching cycle.  It's a clever under reporting of the truth, and none of the Epson facilitated reviews of this printer that I have read to date appear to acknowledge this reality. Perhaps the reviewers simply didn't spend enough time with the printer to even realize the issue exists.  The practical solution for serious printmakers who want the superior B&W print quality in the P600 compared to the P400, IMHO, is to buy two P600 units and dedicate one to PK and one to MK... I have no allegiance to Epson, Canon, HP, or any other manufacturer. They don't loan or give me free stuff to test and I wouldn't accept if they offered. I call it as I see it.

best,
Mark
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: adias on December 30, 2015, 10:57:58 pm
You'll only notice it as the printer taking a far longer time to start up and ready than usual. I never print with MK on my 3880 (other printers do MK work) and it's already consumed a third of the MK cart over two years. My understanding is that it does this to make sure there's at least some fresh/non-stagnant MK ink in the MK line and that you can change over in the future, if you decide to.

I don't know if doing a manual MK/PK change resets the timer on this, but I do know that the printer will do it on a six month schedule if you don't do manual switches.

I NEVER print on matte paper. I have no use for MK. Why pay for one and have it idling and ink cycling for nothing? What happens to the ink drained on ink sponges after a while? Not a good thing. This is another reason why I decided to skip the current inkjet printer generation and try a calibrated printing service for a while.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Wayne Fox on December 31, 2015, 12:16:11 am
I'm sure the P-series printers also do this, but the 3880 does a MK/PK switch every six months, regardless of whether or not you want to. So even if you never use MK ink, it will consume ink as it switches from MK and back.
  I have a 5 year old 9900, and I'm not aware of the machine ever doing it.  I did run some MK stuff several years ago, which left my MK ink very low.

So either the 9900 doesn't do this, or you can prevent it from happening by keeping a MK cartridge in the machine which is low enough in ink the machine can't make the switch.  I'm moving the machine to my store soon, maybe after I do I 'll see if there's enough ink to make the switch (if so the machine doesn't trigger one automatically, if not then either it doesn't trigger one, or keeping a low ink cartridge prevents it ... I guess that sort of makes sense :) )

If you never make the switch, the problem might be the MK drying up to the point of being  unusable - never really thought of that.  but I don't like matt papers so never really worried about it.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 31, 2015, 07:22:13 am
I disagree. ............. I call it as I see it.

best,
Mark

That's fine, good for you.

I can't relate to just about every statement in that post, so we'll agree to disagree.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on December 31, 2015, 07:39:02 am
Well, I had four cartridges registering about 5% left when the P600 refused to make the swap due to "low ink cartrdridge" Only one low cartridge of any color is required for the P600 to refuse the PK/MK ink swap. 
Is this a new "feature?"  I have a 3880 and regularly print on both matte and glossy paper.  I've never noticed (I'm pretty sure) that the printer has failed to switch with low ink warnings showing.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Dan Vincent on December 31, 2015, 10:05:46 am
If you ever get back to home town, please give me a call and let's get together.

I was just in town for Christmas, so it may be a few months. But that sounds like an excellent offer.

Quote
My P600 has now been in operation since April 2015, and I pay close attention to its print cycles in order to identify an autoclean cycles. I have not yet noticed an auto ink switch. I did deliberately switch just once from PK to MK and then soon back to PK in order to print a few light fade test samples early on in May, 2015,  so the printer has now been in PK ink mode for several months. MK is still registering full. Hence, if the P600 is programmed to do an automatic ink swap occasionally, it's a very low frequency indeed, and not cause for much concern since it doesn't affect the economics of ownership in any significant way. User requested deliberate ink swap decisions are another matter, and cause for concern for anyone who likes to print regularly on both matte and glossy media.  In that situation, one would be best served by purchasing the SC P400 instead of the P600 or, sad to say, buying two P600 units in order to dedicate one to Matte papers and one to gloss/luster papers.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

This is good to know; perhaps the P-series are less aggressive about this. As I said, I never run MK on this particular printer, but I do notice when it does the scheduled ink switch; the machine takes an extra five minutes to start up. I have the automatic ink switch turned off in the menu (I have to manually change it to MK in case I accidentally pick the wrong paper type). The new reformulations of the black inks may also have something to do with it (less prone to clogging the switch mechanism?), but I do not know.

My P-7000 Commercial was just installed a month ago, so I cannot say how the new wide formats behave. I cannot recall if the 7900 did a scheduled black switchover because I ran MK jobs on that machine every few months. I will be running MK jobs on the P-7000 and one thing I noticed is that it consumes a lot more ink during a switch than the 7900 did. I have 700mL carts in that thing so it's a drop in the bucket, but still something I noticed.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: MHMG on December 31, 2015, 01:29:47 pm
Is this a new "feature?"  I have a 3880 and regularly print on both matte and glossy paper.  I've never noticed (I'm pretty sure) that the printer has failed to switch with low ink warnings showing.

I have never encountered the issue before on my 3880 either, and as i noted earlier, I don't have a P800, so I cannot confirm whether the P800 with its bigger volume cartridges will negotiate the low ink status PK/MK swap differently than the P600 with its much smaller cartridges, but here is a shot that shows the P600's low ink warning "feature". The image showing the yellow triangle (very low ink) on the yellow cartridge was recorded with an iphone right off the LCD panel of the P600 printer,and also shows the warning you get when trying to switch black inks.  Note in this very current photo of my P600's status that both PK an MK are quite full, thus proving that any low cartridge not just a low PK or MK can trigger the P600's refusal to make the Black ink swap.

The other two attached images are screen shots of the utility panel you can check on your computer. In one image you can see that four inks are low including the PK ink, but none have posted that yellow triangle warning yet, and in the other screenshot the low PK ink was replaced (but didn't solve the switch refusal) while the cyan cartridge had next reached the yellow triangle low warning. What this all means is that there are actually two "low" levels, the really low level where a cartridge shows a yellow triangle warning and another lesser low level that still has enough ink not to trigger the triangle warning but still too low to allow the swap. Lastly, it can be seen in these photos that the cartridges really don't stay in syncronization, so just about the time you get one replaced another is now heading into that low zone which is going to negate the opportunity to make a black ink switch.

While I may try to study this whole low ink cartridge temporary removal and then replace strategy as a way to circumvent the ink swap refusal when you only own one printer, I don't have high confidence that constant swap outs and set asides of opened ink cartridges is a very good idea. But it's worth understanding as a possible work around to the black ink swap conundrum, so I will probably give it a try.

To me, if you are a serious printmaker who wants very best image quality in smaller sized prints, The P600's 5760dpi setting does deliver subtle yet noticeably superior image detail compared to 2880 dpi, albeit at significantly slower print speed. Hence, even if I owned a P800, I'd still be tempted to have the P600 in my studio as well. Thus, the ideal situation if you want to print regularly on both matt and glossy media and if room space isn't a problem, is to own two of them, one dedicated to PK and another dedicated to MK. Another advantage of that approach is one can swap the mostly still full PK and MK cartridges periodically and directly between the two printers (ie. not have them lying around outside the printer), thus effectively managing any potential concerns about shelf life of the lesser used black ink in each printer.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Wayne Fox on December 31, 2015, 03:24:08 pm
regarding not swapping if other colors are too low, I know on the larger printers, you have to have enough LK ink because it is consumed in the swap as well. Not sure about the smaller printers, but guessing some other inks are used in a swap, I don’t think they can clean out just the pk/mk line.  Also in the larger printers an ink swap triggers an auto nozzle check and clean if necessary.  So it could be the printer won’t swap if there isn’t enough ink for a clean, even if there is enough black ink for a swap.
Title: Re: What does it really cost to make a print at home?
Post by: Mark D Segal on December 31, 2015, 04:37:42 pm
regarding not swapping if other colors are too low, I know on the larger printers, you have to have enough LK ink because it is consumed in the swap as well. Not sure about the smaller printers, but guessing some other inks are used in a swap, I don’t think they can clean out just the pk/mk line.  Also in the larger printers an ink swap triggers an auto nozzle check and clean if necessary.  So it could be the printer won’t swap if there isn’t enough ink for a clean, even if there is enough black ink for a swap.

In the 4900 the whole swap is between MK and PK and it happens via a small switch in the damper which allows through either the one ink or the other - like a switch between tram tracks going in divergent directions. No other inks are involved with this. I've seen actually how this mechanism works.