Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: Dinarius on December 14, 2015, 12:07:47 pm
-
I am using C1 9.0 with Windows 10.
This problem existed with C1 8 and Windows 8 and 10, and it's now worse, for me.
But, I'm raising it here first before opening a (yet another!) support case to see if others have the same issue.
The problem is simply as follows:
1. Open the Advanced tab in the Color Editor tool.
2. Pick a color correction on an image, using the tool's eyedropper, from an area of solid color in the image. (an area of solid color makes it easier to compare the readings)
3. Note that in the Color Tool dialog, the before/after RGB readings are the same - which is what they should be. Great.
4. Now, assuming that the color picker tool hasn't been moved from the selection point in the image, note the RGB reading at the top of the screen above the image. Is it the same as the RGB/RGB readings in the Color Tool?
For me it isn't. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the discrepancy is now worse than it was with Windows 8/C1 8.
The RGB readings at the top of the screen are way below those in the Color Tool dialog. Typically, I might get 169/173/188 on the screen, and 248/248, 248/248, 247/247 in the dialog. (This is a reading I just took from an image in order to post this observation.) That's almost an 80 point difference. This is nuts!
Which readings are correct? Which readings do I edit to? Or do I have something wrong in my setup?
Thanks.
D
-
In Mac OSX 10.11.2 I see the same thing, but the difference is much smaller. The readings at the top of the window is a few points lower than the readings in the advanced color tool.
So it's on Mac, too.
-
I am using C1 9.0 with Windows 10.
This problem existed with C1 8 and Windows 8 and 10, and it's now worse, for me.
But, I'm raising it here first before opening a (yet another!) support case to see if others have the same issue.
The problem is simply as follows:
1. Open the Advanced tab in the Color Editor tool.
2. Pick a color correction on an image, using the tool's eyedropper, from an area of solid color in the image. (an area of solid color makes it easier to compare the readings)
3. Note that in the Color Tool dialog, the before/after RGB readings are the same - which is what they should be. Great.
4. Now, assuming that the color picker tool hasn't been moved from the selection point in the image, note the RGB reading at the top of the screen above the image. Is it the same as the RGB/RGB readings in the Color Tool?
For me it isn't. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the discrepancy is now worse than it was with Windows 8/C1 8.
The RGB readings at the top of the screen are way below those in the Color Tool dialog. Typically, I might get 169/173/188 on the screen, and 248/248, 248/248, 247/247 in the dialog. (This is a reading I just took from an image in order to post this observation.) That's almost an 80 point difference. This is nuts!
Which readings are correct? Which readings do I edit to? Or do I have something wrong in my setup?
Thanks.
D
Did you not create a support case and already get an explanation for the difference?
-
Did you not create a support case and already get an explanation for the difference?
If you did get an explanation, please share it.
-
If you did get an explanation, please share it.
"Hello,
This is becuase the value you see at the top is the color after it has been converted to your output space, whereas the value in Colur editor is based only in the input profile you are editing."
-
"Hello,
This is becuase the value you see at the top is the color after it has been converted to your output space, whereas the value in Colur editor is based only in the input profile you are editing."
That is what I also expected, but was not sure enough about to state it as a fact. It also suggests that the Color Editor works at a low level, early in the Raw conversion pipeline. The R/G/B and brightness display values at the top of the preview, and the optional Color readouts in the preview area are proofed output RGB colors. It is the latter colors that are meaningful to me, even when I use the Advanced or Skin Color Editor tabs.
It's a bit similar to Lightroom which shows RGB percentages while in Raw data, and 8-bit RGB values when in proofing mode.
Cheers,
Bart
-
"Hello,
This is because the value you see at the top is the color after it has been converted to your output space, whereas the value in Colur editor is based only in the input profile you are editing."
David,
Just to be clear, I want to edit and save in ProPhoto RGB.
So, with ProPhoto set as my Proof Profile (View/Proof Profile) and then Exporting in ProPhoto (obviously), I must ignore the RGB values in the Color Tool dialog and only read those at the top of the screen. Correct?
Thanks.
D.
-
"Hello,
This is becuase the value you see at the top is the color after it has been converted to your output space, whereas the value in Colur editor is based only in the input profile you are editing."
why the change of the proof space changes the values in ColorEditor then ? if you say "only" that implies that no other color profiles shall affect the numbers in color editor, but it is not so... I change the proof from Prophoto to sRGB and I see that the same color selected in ColorEditor will get new RGB numbers... can actual developers (a-la Esben for example) explain the flow of data for color editor ? is it [raw rgb] -> [color transform using input profile] only to display RGB numbers in color editor ? then there shall be no difference when I change the proof profile... if it is [raw rgb] -> [color transform using input profile] -> [color transfor using proof profile] to display RGB numbers in color editor then it is not "only".
-
It also suggests that the Color Editor works
because C1 Color Editor can save adjusted input profiles as new input profiles it is certainly so - but what color editor displays as numbers is a different matter - see the point about changing proof profile affecting numbers in color editor... where and when it works modifying something (with AtoB0 tage from input profile with LUT, that converts raw rgb to a proper colorimetric color space, PCS = cieLAB or cieXYZ) is not linked as to what it displays to you in C1 user interface (it seems)
-
because C1 Color Editor can save adjusted input profiles as new input profiles it is certainly so - but what color editor displays as numbers is a different matter - see the point about changing proof profile affecting numbers in color editor... where and when it works modifying something (with AtoB0 tage from input profile with LUT, that converts raw rgb to a proper colorimetric color space, PCS = cieLAB or cieXYZ) is not linked as to what it displays to you in C1 user interface (it seems)
Hi,
I agree it is not that intuitive, but maybe it is due to Rendering intent that feeds back to how the base color conversion is approached? I don't know the exact reason, because I do not have insight in the exact conversion engine's inner workings.
What's most important for me, is that the (delta) changes in the Color Editor are indicative, and they do not translate 1-on-1 to the output RGB changes (which is ultimately what counts, for me anyway). If one is interested then cloning a before-variant and placing a/some Color Readout(s) will do the trick.
Cheers,
Bart
-
I agree it is not that intuitive, but maybe it is due to Rendering intent that feeds back to how the base color conversion is approached? I don't know the exact reason, because I do not have insight in the exact conversion engine's inner workings.
so why don't we ask David Grover to be so kind again (as he did recently) and ask people in P1 who knows to provide a more precise answer ! I mean as to why the change in proof profile means change in rgb numbers in color editor... input (camera) and output profiles stay the same
-
The reason I wrote to Support again was because the discrepancy between the RGB readings in C1 9.0/Windows 10 was even greater than C1 8/Windows 8. (I haven't had a reply)
Anyway, below is the text of my last correspondence with them re C1 8/Windows 8. I presume it's applicable to the current situation.
Me: "Thanks for the reply. So, let me rephrase the question........ If I want to edit *AND* save in ProPhoto RGB, what must I do? What preference settings must I apply to the software and where? And will I then see the same readings both at the top and in the Colour Tool dialog?"
Support: "Hi,
Editing in and saveing in Profot RGB does not make sense... becuase your camera is not aligned to Profoto RGB which is a working space, not a camera input space. If you want to see the same numbers you can set your output profile to "Embed Camera profile."
I assume what you are really trying to do is hit certain numbers in the final image. In that case place a color readout dropper (can be found in the list of eyedroppper tools in the curser toolbar) and place a color readout on the patch you want to edit. then adjust the color editor for that color but pay attention to the final numbers displayed on readout, not the color editor tool.
Best regards,
Team Phase One Support"
Make sense?
D.
-
One further point on all of this...........
If I select View/Proof Profile and select Adobe RGB (1998), and then select Color/Base Characteristics/Adobe RGB (1998), when I now take a sample from an image using the colour picker in the Color Tool/Advanced Tab, the RGB readings in the Color Tool dialog, and the RGB readings at the top of the screen are identical.
This is great and exactly what I wanted all along.
My problem is this: unless I'm going blind, ProPhoto RGB is NOT an option in the Base Characteristics drop down menu. Is it there? If not, can I add it to the list?
Thanks.
D.
Ps. Or let me rephrase my question above: MUST I leave Base Characteristics set to the camera model whose files I'm editing? (In which case the RGB reading discrepancies would continue)
-
One further point on all of this...........
If I select View/Proof Profile and select Adobe RGB (1998), and then select Color/Base Characteristics/Adobe RGB (1998), when I now take a sample from an image using the colour picker in the Color Tool/Advanced Tab, the RGB readings in the Color Tool dialog, and the RGB readings at the top of the screen are identical.
This is great and exactly what I wanted all along.
My problem is this: unless I'm going blind, ProPhoto RGB is NOT an option in the Base Characteristics drop down menu. Is it there? If not, can I add it to the list?
Thanks.
D.
Ps. Or let me rephrase my question above: MUST I leave Base Characteristics set to the camera model whose files I'm editing? (In which case the RGB reading discrepancies would continue)
Base Characteristics describes the ICC profile of your camera. If you want totally wacky colours, then sure, change it to something other than your camera profile! But this makes no sense whatsoever.
But if its what you want then go ahead.
Are you adjusted colours in the color editor to achieve an exact output based on readings of a colour patch? If so, then simply ignore the readings in the Color Editor and use the readings at the top of the screen.
-
Base Characteristics describes the ICC profile of your camera. If you want totally wacky colours, then sure, change it to something other than your camera profile! But this makes no sense whatsoever.
But if its what you want then go ahead.
Are you adjusted colours in the color editor to achieve an exact output based on readings of a colour patch? If so, then simply ignore the readings in the Color Editor and use the readings at the top of the screen.
I agree, and suggest people to forget their old paradigms, like editing in ProPhoto RGB inside Capture One. It makes no sense, and one can always output (by making a recipe for that) to "Embed Camera Profile" (which is a large enough space to avoid losing data to clipping), and then in Photoshop convert from that colorspace to ProPhotoRGB if one must. Or one could do it the easy way, and just output in Prophoto RGB from an output recipe which is what the output was proofed for.
Cheers,
Bart
-
Base Characteristics describes the ICC profile of your camera. If you want totally wacky colours, then sure, change it to something other than your camera profile! But this makes no sense whatsoever.
But if its what you want then go ahead.
Are you adjusted colours in the color editor to achieve an exact output based on readings of a colour patch? If so, then simply ignore the readings in the Color Editor and use the readings at the top of the screen.
David,
Perfect.
What I had been doing is leaving the ICC Profile as per my camera, and editing to what I'm seeing at the top of the screen. It's exactly as it should be.
But, purely from a convenience point of view, if I could use the CT dialog RGB readings, there would be less too-ing and fro-ing, so to speak.
But, thanks for the clarification. Sorted now.
D
-
"...then adjust the color editor for that color but pay attention to the final numbers displayed on readout, not the color editor tool..."
Make sense?
this part does not make any sense - why in the world you have some RGB numbers (and HSV representation of the same numbers) in Color Editor and nobody can clearly tell you what they actually are ;D - and a direct recommendation from P1 not to pay attention to the numbers that C1 itself displays is odd, isn't it ?
-
In editing, for colour accuracy purposes, I'm trying to hit specific RGB numbers - sometimes in ProPhoto, sometimes in Adobe 1998.
Unlike Bart, I want to edit in these spaces within C1.
Do anyone have the remotest clue of what their camera profile (Base Characteristics/ICC Profile) RGB numbers correspond to on a Gretag Colour Checker? I don't. But, I know exactly what the RGB numbers are for PP, Lab, 1998, sRGB and Apple. They're readily available.
So, I guess what I'm really saying is, I don't understand why the RGB readings in the Colour Tool retain the camera's ICC Profile values, when you've decided to edit in a standard space.
The colour I'm getting via the RGB numbers at the top of the screen is excellent. But, the workflow would be greatly simplified if I could fully utilize the Colour Tool.
Hope I'm making sense.
D.
-
I want to edit in these spaces within C1.
we were through this recently in a different topic - you can't edit in those spaces in C1 (as in when you move exposure slider the C1 code does not use any of those color spaces to adjust the data) - you can only use them as a proof profile (for example to see RGB numbers in color readout) and/or output profile (proof profile can be set to be = output profile automatically, if that's what you want), that's it... so while you are not editing (as in what RGB coordinates are that C1 code deals with inside) in them you (visually and/or by numbers and/or clipping indications) can control to some extent the result of your manipulations.
but then you need to clearly define what do you mean by "editing" and what is the purpose of what you try to achieve.
-
In editing, for colour accuracy purposes, I'm trying to hit specific RGB numbers - sometimes in ProPhoto, sometimes in Adobe 1998.
Unlike Bart, I want to edit in these spaces within C1.
Hi D.,
You can hit these numbers, just set the output recipe to the required colorspace (assuming you want to also output in that colorspace). Alternatively you can set the proofing profile to the particular output colorspace via the menu, but that doesn't automatically becomes the output profile (it's only for proofing on display).
So, to me, switching between output recipes has more benefits. Firstly you can leave the proofing settings to use the active output recipe, and secondly you cannot forget to set the correct profile for output, WYSIWYG.
The only thing is that one has to use the colors readout above the preview (that's why it's a preview), or set one or more Color readout(s) in the image itself. Simple.
Do anyone have the remotest clue of what their camera profile (Base Characteristics/ICC Profile) RGB numbers correspond to on a Gretag Colour Checker? I don't. But, I know exactly what the RGB numbers are for PP, Lab, 1998, sRGB and Apple. They're readily available.
And all colors that are not in the colorchecker may be more or less off ... Really, in my experience, it's more important to have a good profile than to match 18 color and 6 greyscale patches out of the hundreds / thousands of actual/different colors in the subject. Only matching CC24 patch values (have you really measured the ones of your target? There is some variance depending on batch and age ...) creates a false sense of security if that's the only check. Real subject colors may suffer from metamerism, and the CC24 will never tell you that, because its colors have been designed to avoid metamerism issues ...
Cheers,
Bart
-
what their camera profile (Base Characteristics/ICC Profile) RGB numbers correspond to on a Gretag Colour Checker
input profile (camera profile) just defines how raw RGB data that C1 operates on will be mapped into coordinates in a proper color space (PCS) which is either cieLAB or cieXYZ...
consider a simple case when your input profile is just matrix with PCS = cieXYZ (can't be cieLAB in this case by definition)... matrix M (3x3) describes the linear operation /color transform/ {R, G, B} * M = {X, Y, Z} ... so the code knows which specific coordinates of color in cieXYZ color space those {R, G, B} numbers actually are.
that makes it possible to do further in the pipeline various color transforms into your output space (or you can "embed" your camera profile and postpone the deed) and/or your proof space.
so when you add a new camera you need to add just a new input profile, w/o redefining how its Raw RGB numbers will be mapped into all variety of other color spaces in the universe, that's what PCS and definition of a color transform to PCS is for.
-
Really, in my experience, it's more important to have a good profile than to match 18 color and 6 greyscale patches out of the hundreds / thousands of actual/different colors in the subject.
and what is the "good" profile ? excluding your "eyes" please.
-
Thanks for the replies.
I have the ICC Profile set to my camera (the default) and View/Proof Profile set to ProPhoto (usually) and Adobe 1998 occasionally.
As I wrote above, a straight (out of the camera) reading from a patch in a Gretag CC will give a Color Tool reading vastly different from the RGB (Proof Profile) at the top of the screen.
However, for what it's worth, if I make a few basic corrections (I'm talking about controlled studio lighting) such as White Balance and Levels, and then take another reading, the RGB values (top of screen and in Colour Tool) are much closer to one another. Also, they are very, very close many of the Gretag patch numbers - as long as I've set the gamma for the image too. (I use a basICColor grey card for this.)
So, happy days, on balance.
Thanks for all the feedback.
D.
-
But, I know exactly what the RGB numbers are for PP, Lab, 1998, sRGB and Apple. They're readily available.
except that when you have a specific target in your shot then you really don't "EXACTLY" (only approximately) because of variations in manufacturing process (as a minimum) and then whatever numbers for example the manufacturer published... do you really know how they were obtained ? I bet that when X-Rite published new Lab values for November 2014+ CC24 or CCSG targets what happened was that some tech grabbed some i1Pro2 laying around and one of the actual charts (not even several from various batches) and measured (good thing if several times and averaged and not even with different spectometers)... so yes, within several dE2K (<= ~3) those numbers are what they shall be... exactly ? dream on
-
Thanks for the replies.
I have the ICC Profile set to my camera (the default)
if that is a profile supplied by P1 with C1 and you are not using C1 CH edition camera profiles/curves (as in "linear scientific", w/o instructions for C1 to reconstruct clipped highlights, etc - which makes a difference for areas near sensor saturation) then you can't really hope to get a match (a match let us define as in within 1.x dE2K across all patches vs your measurements of your target... you can't seriously claim a match if your average is > 2.x and max > 3.x )... that profile was not created for that purpose.
-
except that when you have a specific target in your shot then you really don't "EXACTLY" (only approximately) because of variations in manufacturing process (as a minimum) and then whatever numbers for example the manufacturer published... do you really know how they were obtained ? I bet that when X-Rite published new Lab values for November 2014+ CC24 or CCSG targets what happened was that some tech grabbed some i1Pro2 laying around and one of the actual charts (not even several from various batches) and measured (good thing if several times and averaged and not even with different spectometers)... so yes, within several dE2K (<= ~3) those numbers are what they shall be... exactly ? dream on
I can't argue with that. But, there will always be a margin of error. And then, up the line, there is the colour management at the offset printing stage which, as someone who has shot hundreds of catalogues, I can tell you is c**p! :)
I can only make it as good as I can. It's then up to someone else to keep it looking that way.
Thanks again.
-
if that is a profile supplied by P1 with C1 and you are not using C1 CH edition camera profiles/curves (as in "linear scientific", w/o instructions for C1 to reconstruct clipped highlights, etc - which makes a difference for areas near sensor saturation) then you can't really home to get a match... that profile was not created for that purpose.
But, I'm trying to match that. I'm trying to match the Proof Profile via what I reading at the top of the screen. I have to say that, on my calibrated monitor, Gretag CCs look pretty darned on the money.
D.
-
and what is the "good" profile ? excluding your "eyes" please.
Depends on the actual subject colors and illumination conditions. Thus custom made. The CC24 colors are a step in the good direction, especially if one is to make reproductions of, ... CC24s. ;)
Cheers,
Bart
-
Depends on the actual subject colors and illumination conditions. Thus custom made. The CC24 colors are a step in the good direction, especially if one is to make reproductions of, ... CC24s. ;)
Cheers,
Bart
still how do you actually check that ? as a minimum good process of the profile building shall ensure that you can hit (using the final or intermediate, in case when you then want to fine tune it away from precision towards subjective colors/contrast/etc, profile in raw converter, comparing the actual output from the shot of that actual target with the target measurements using something like babelcolor patchtool) that specific target itself with a certain precision (demonstrated in numbers) - no challenging colors, no metameric issues... but if you can't then it is a matter of subjective opinion only to call it "good"
-
I have to say that, on my calibrated monitor, Gretag CCs look pretty darned on the money.
and I have to say that you need to use something like patchtool that can eliminate a lot of subjective things, example... I still can't hit this match, which I did with my A7, for my A7R2... I am dE2K = ~1 worse across several patches and stuck there for a few weeks... and _NO_ = looking @ 2 targets (one from converter, one from spectral data) separately and near each other on my calibrated monitor does not show the difference that looking @ this + actual statistic for dE numbers can illustrate... I do not consider visual match between 2 targets w/o actually intersecting each patch a good match at all...
(http://s9.postimg.org/6vnkxrqb3/match.jpg)
-
I noticed a really strange thing with color readings.
A model's forehead, brightly lit, only read 35 brightness.
This happened several times. Once it got resolved by double-clicking, and the reading jumped to 230.
Other times I think moving the exposure slider, and back, got the tool unstuck.
It's not the whole image the tool gives wrong read-outs, but weird enough brighter areas of the image, around 210 to 235 - and not all of them.
-
I noticed a really strange thing with color readings.
A model's forehead, brightly lit, only read 35 brightness.
This happened several times. Once it got resolved by double-clicking, and the reading jumped to 230.
Other times I think moving the exposure slider, and back, got the tool unstuck.
It's not the whole image the tool gives wrong read-outs, but weird enough brighter areas of the image, around 210 to 235 - and not all of them.
Hi,
Have you tried switching hardware acceleration on/oFF to see if that makes a difference in behavior? Also make sure your video drivers are up to date.
Cheers,
Bart
-
Resurrecting this thread....... 8)
Which rendering intent (Edit/Preferences/Colour/Rendering Intent) are people using?
Do you always use the same one?
Thanks.
D.
-
Ps.
Some might be interested in reading (http://www.sfoto.se/sites/default/files/article_attachments/imagingetc_hasselblad.pdf) how another RAW editing software can be used to address the issue of colour repro, when used in conjunction with a third party plug-in.
D.
-
Resurrecting this thread....... 8)
Which rendering intent (Edit/Preferences/Colour/Rendering Intent) are people using?
Do you always use the same one?
Hi,
I mostly use Perceptual (like how the output profiles were made), but it depends on the subject and specific image. I might occasionally also try Relative Colorimetric should banding issues in certain gradients appear.
Cheers,
Bart
-
Update:
After an extended ticket correspondence with Support, it is now accepted that, at least with my setup (Windows 10 Pro x64 / C1 Pro), there is a bug in the Colour Editor.
This is after testing it with files from three different cameras. Canon 1Ds Mklll, 5D Mk IV and Sony RX100; all in RAW mode.
With a file in the browser that has NO edits applied to it, if I click on the image with the CE eye-dropper tool, the RGB readings in the CE and top of the screen are identical. Also, the colour swatch in the CE is the same as the colour in the image.
If I make a change to, say, Exposure and then take a sample, the RGB readings in both readouts remain identical.
However, if I make a change to Levels and take a sample, the RGB in the CE is about 20 points higher than the top of the screen readout.
If I make a change to a LUMA curve and take a sample, the RGB in the CE is about 20 points lower than the top of the screen readout.
This is the same pattern for all three cameras.
Editing changes introduce discrepancies in RGB readings, which I'm assuming shouldn't be the case. Support seem to agree with me.
They are not sure when this bug will be fixed.
D.