Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => But is it Art? => Topic started by: Isaac on December 01, 2015, 04:30:01 pm

Title: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Isaac on December 01, 2015, 04:30:01 pm
Quote
"It doesn't matter whether or not something actually happened to the writer -- or to the person interpreting the song. On the contrary, it is the music and lyrics that trigger the emotions within us, rather than the other way around. We don't make music -- it makes us.

Making music is like constructing a machine whose function is to dredge up emotions in performer and listener alike. Some people find this idea repulsive, because it seems to relegate the artist to the level of trickster, manipulator, and deceiver -- a kind of self-justifying onanist. They would prefer to see music as an expression of emotion rather than a generator of it, to believe in the artist as someone with something to say."

page 162 How Music Works (http://www.davidbyrne.com/archive/art/books/how_music_works/)
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: elliot_n on December 01, 2015, 08:52:43 pm
That's how it is. With photography too.
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Rob C on December 02, 2015, 04:46:27 am
Nice; we split the atom, our asses, and now the hairs on Dylan's head. It's part of the 'pixels on a the head of a pin' ethos; doesn't mean a thing.

Rob C
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: stamper on December 02, 2015, 07:56:33 am
Isaac, your epitaph? ;) :)
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 02, 2015, 09:06:00 am
Isaac, your epitaph? ;) :)

Stamper, your best dig ever!  :D
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 02, 2015, 09:12:29 am
.... It's part of the 'pixels on a the head of a pin' ethos;...

Thanks, Rob!

You finally solved my dilemma. As a non-native English speaker, I always struggle with articles. Which shall I use, definite or indefinite, that is always the question. Now, thanks to your ingenious solution, no more struggle: I will simply use both at the same time!  ;)
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Isaac on December 02, 2015, 11:31:22 am
That's how it is. With photography too.

That does seem more plausible than the ego drenched alternative.
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Rob C on December 02, 2015, 12:54:29 pm
Thanks, Rob!

You finally solved my dilemma. As a non-native English speaker, I always struggle with articles. Which shall I use, definite or indefinite, that is always the question. Now, thanks to your ingenious solution, no more struggle: I will simply use both at the same time!  ;)


It's my eyes... sorry!

Rob
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Isaac on December 03, 2015, 12:54:52 pm
Isaac, your epitaph? ;) :)

"To be blunt there are a lot of armchair snipers on the internet who like to snipe and they haven't a clue what they are talking about."
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: stamper on December 04, 2015, 04:44:31 am
"To be blunt there are a lot of armchair snipers on the internet who like to snipe and they haven't a clue what they are talking about."

Humour Isaac. Is there any humour in your life, if there is I haven't seen it in any of your posts. Why don't you try and lighten up and try communicating better with you fellow LULA members? :(
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Isaac on December 04, 2015, 11:30:23 am
I quoted your own words.

You object when other people snipe, but when you snipe at others it's "humour".
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: stamper on December 05, 2015, 04:36:45 am
I quoted your own words.

You object when other people snipe, but when you snipe at others it's "humour".

Which post did you quote from? Did you quote out of context? As stated my post was a humorous one but once again you fail to see the funny side of it. A lot of other members find you difficult to communicate with. You should reflect on that. :(
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Isaac on December 05, 2015, 12:54:08 pm
When someone has repeatedly told you that your remarks are snide and unwelcome, what should you reflect on?
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Jagatai on December 10, 2015, 09:49:35 am
"It doesn't matter whether or not something actually happened to the writer -- or to the person interpreting the song. On the contrary, it is the music and lyrics that trigger the emotions within us, rather than the other way around. We don't make music -- it makes us.

Making music is like constructing a machine whose function is to dredge up emotions in performer and listener alike. Some people find this idea repulsive, because it seems to relegate the artist to the level of trickster, manipulator, and deceiver -- a kind of self-justifying onanist. They would prefer to see music as an expression of emotion rather than a generator of it, to believe in the artist as someone with something to say."

while I think it can be useful to look at the artistic process from a purely mechanistic point of view when you are analyzing how and why an image works, I think it is also important to remember that art is as much a process of discovery as it is one of communication.  Whether writing music or taking a photograph, the artist searches for the elelments that create the right feeling that makes the peice work.

The 'artist' who creates a work purely through known rules is not discovering anything new.  This is the kind of work that takes no risks.

I tend to think of my process of taking a photograph as "learning how to see".  I don't take photographs using the known rules of composition.  Instead, i take photographs to better understand how composition works.  For me, the fun is in learning how to see more deeply.
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Rob C on December 15, 2015, 02:21:14 pm
And poor old Garry Winogrand became so compulsively drawn to it that he died leaving between 2,600 and 4,500 undeveloped cassettes of film... the figures vary from source to source, casting doubt on the entire matter.

But is that healthy? Surely that's obsession and little more? But then isn't all of art compulsive? You are, or you are not an artist, something entirely outwith your control...

But, is compulsively shooting everything that passes you, that seems to fit within your obsession of frame, truly art, especially if you never see the result? He apparently once claimed to photograph things just to see how they would 'photograph' which, if you abandon processing them, you never know or, on the other hand, you do know just so completely that, in effect, you do have all the answers and your life's journey is over: you achieved the understanding and it doesn't matter anymore - it's the doing that becomes absolute master of you.

I tend to believe this is true, because I find that I also seem to be clicking away like a machine on auto, simply because I have always clicked... what to do if there's silence?

Rob C
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: GrahamBy on December 15, 2015, 03:50:56 pm
Isn't this close to the thought that drove Henri C-B to put down the Leica and concentrate on drawing?
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Rob C on December 15, 2015, 05:30:41 pm
Isn't this close to the thought that drove Henri C-B to put down the Leica and concentrate on drawing?

I'm not sure about the reasons - I haven't read enough about him to come across a defining moment (ironic!) that would explain this. If Russ is reading this, perhaps he has the answer, as his library if far, far more extensive than my meagre one!

There may be practical reasons, such as the fading market interest in photojournalism over the span of his time, or as I think you suggested, boredom born from the knowledge that he already knew what he was going to get. Possibly, as with myself, as time goes by the world becomes a less interesting place in some ways, and you find more interesting things inside than without.

The unknown is exciting when you don't know much, but the more you learn the fuller your life has become and, as with anything, you reach your personal saturation point. He did travel a lot beyond the French borders, saw much of mid-century history being made... and best of all, he got the fame in his lifetime and never needed the money.

It sure helps that he was always an artist, though!

Rob C
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: GrahamBy on December 15, 2015, 06:03:51 pm
Now, thanks to your ingenious solution, no more struggle: I will simply use both at the same time!  ;)

Hmm, I think you're Serbian, from the name? Anyway, another gent I know with similar origins solved it in the other way... he never used either. Gave his writing a punchy feel :-)
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: tnargs on December 15, 2015, 06:37:34 pm
(writing to someone else)...You object when other people snipe, but when you snipe at others it's "humour".

Thank you, I agree with this wholeheartedly. I too am sick of people who write 'smartypants' comments that are sarcastic and negative either directly or by implication, but because they wrap it in notional humour or wit, they think it's okay.

Leave that stuff for your personal blog, people. For a community forum, be genuinely nice. When necessary, disagree with people cordially and respectfully.
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 15, 2015, 06:51:53 pm
... they think it's okay....

You bet :)

I would rather poke my eye with a plastic spoon than talk to "genuinely nice" people (a PC term for those whose sense of humor was surgically removed at birth) that are genuinely booooriiing.
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: tnargs on December 15, 2015, 08:44:55 pm
You bet :)

I would rather poke my eye with a plastic spoon than talk to "genuinely nice" people (a PC term for those whose sense of humor was surgically removed at birth) that are genuinely booooriiing.
Classic example. Yet you talked to me. Self-contradictory. Pointless.
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Rob C on December 16, 2015, 04:06:23 am
Thank you, I agree with this wholeheartedly. I too am sick of people who write 'smartypants' comments that are sarcastic and negative either directly or by implication, but because they wrap it in notional humour or wit, they think it's okay.

Leave that stuff for your personal blog, people. For a community forum, be genuinely nice. When necessary, disagree with people cordially and respectfully.


Are you suggesting we all get us to a nunnery?

The nightmare that you suggest would mean that this entire site would be closed in under two weeks due to lack of clicks; then, of course, your own 'blog' or whatever you suggest could/would be the new fanstasy world and reign supreme: a perfect world with you the sole commander, contributor and reader! Heaven - for you. Why would you need Lula at all? Why do you need it now?

Lighten up or light out, would be my attitude, and FWIW I'd hoof the PC angels out before most of the spammers or trolls; at the very least, if a bit bent or misguided, the trolls are of this world.

Rob C
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: stamper on December 16, 2015, 04:34:09 am
Classic example. Yet you talked to me. Self-contradictory. Pointless.

I believe there is a vacancy for a moderator on the forum....hopefully you won't apply and better still if you do then you won't get it. Could you stick to posting with regards to photography and leave the moderation to the owners of the site? ::)
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Rob C on December 16, 2015, 10:08:21 am
I believe there is a vacancy for a moderator on the forum....hopefully you won't apply and better still if you do then you won't get it. Could you stick to posting with regards to photography and leave the moderation to the owners of the site? ::)

stamper! Merry Christmas!

Rob C

;-)
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: stamper on December 16, 2015, 10:26:08 am
stamper! Merry Christmas!

Rob C

;-)

Merry Christmas to you Rob!
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Isaac on December 16, 2015, 01:47:13 pm
Classic example. Yet you talked to me. Self-contradictory. Pointless.

Food for trolls ;-)
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on December 16, 2015, 03:32:48 pm
Food for trolls ;-)

Merry Christmas, Isaac!  :)
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: AreBee on January 24, 2016, 02:45:46 pm
Isaac,

Quote from: David Byrne
Making music is like constructing a machine whose function is to dredge up emotions in performer and listener alike. Some people find this idea repulsive, because it seems to relegate the artist to the level of trickster, manipulator, and deceiver -- a kind of self-justifying onanist. They would prefer to see music as an expression of emotion rather than a generator of it, to believe in the artist as someone with something to say."

Who is the machine constructor?
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Isaac on January 24, 2016, 04:51:28 pm
Who is the machine constructor?

In the analogy, those making music.
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: AreBee on January 24, 2016, 05:52:35 pm
Isaac,

Quote
In the analogy, those making music.

Perhaps those with something to say trick/manipulate/deceive others in order to ensure that their message cannot be misinterpreted.
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Isaac on January 24, 2016, 08:42:17 pm
Perhaps you prefer "to believe in the artist as someone with something to say."
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: AreBee on January 25, 2016, 05:51:47 am
Isaac,

Quote
Perhaps you prefer "to believe in the artist as someone with something to say."

As before, perhaps trickster/manipulator/deceiver and someone with something to say are not mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Jagatai on January 28, 2016, 01:27:53 pm
The idea expressed in the original post, I think, more rightly refers to the problem of the hack artist.  An artist like Thomas Kinkade can find an effective emotionally manipulating technique and then use it to get a specific and predictable reaction from the viewer.  But I don't think that is what is effective in art.  Good art is an exploration that is begun by the artist and picked up and continued by the audience.  Art, like science, should never begin with the answer it is looking for, but instead look at evidence or experiences as the raw material to propel one toward a new or more complex understanding of the world.

The idea that an artist "has something to say" is a bit of a confounding point.  My take on this issue is that art is not about saying something.  It is about searching and discovering and communicating an experience.  If you begin a work of art with the intention of making a specific statement, what you are actually doing is creating propaganda.  It might be very nice propaganda, but it isn't going to be a transformative experience for the viewer.  Where art can be quite powerful is when the artist is open to new experience and searching for answers they do not already have.  If that artist has adequate skill, they may be able to create an image that communicates that discovery to an audience.
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Isaac on January 28, 2016, 01:53:00 pm
The idea expressed in the original post, I think, more rightly refers to the problem of the hack artist.

That was David Byrne (https://www.ted.com/talks/david_byrne_how_architecture_helped_music_evolve?language=en) writing about what he experienced making music.

I don't think the intention was to disparage others as "the hack artist".
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on January 28, 2016, 02:31:37 pm
Yo, man, Jagatai, how rude of you to interrupt such a nice string of mind-numbing bickering that was going on before you decided to interrupt it with your reasonable comments! ;)
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: GrahamBy on January 29, 2016, 09:43:57 am
One man's hack...

I once spoke with a film critic who felt that any use of music in film was a cheap trick to manipulate the emotions of the viewer. He thus held that the film "The Piano" was second rate, since the music was emotionally powerful...

His point of view seemed to me to be arbitrary hair-shirt purism, but maybe moving on from the silent era degraded cinema's pretension to art...
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: AreBee on March 30, 2016, 02:15:10 pm
Quote from: Thom Hogan
...film and video directors know about perspective. It’s one of the ways they manipulate you. So why aren’t you using it in your still work (http://www.dslrbodies.com/lenses/lens-articles/choosing-lenses/choosing-a-simple-prime-kit.html)?
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: James Clark on April 07, 2016, 05:28:22 pm
Quote
Quote from: Thom Hogan
...film and video directors know about perspective. It’s one of the ways they manipulate you. So why aren’t you using it in your still work?

Fascinating thoughts.  And, for me at least, almost spot on:

Quote
The in between crowd? Probably 24mm and 85mm
Title: Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
Post by: wmchauncey on April 09, 2016, 09:15:17 am
Quote
Yo, man, Jagatai, how rude of you to interrupt such a nice string of mind-numbing bickering that was going on before you decided to interrupt it with your reasonable comments!
To me, that sounded more like the blather that one might receive during a "philosophy of art class".