Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: tom b on November 23, 2015, 04:12:04 am
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The partition, India and Pakistan.
"In the riots which preceded the partition in the Punjab region, between 200,000 and 500,000 people were killed in the retributive genocide between the religions. UNHCR estimates 14 million Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims were displaced during the partition; it was the largest mass migration in human history".
We must get the "Paris attacks" in perspective.
Cheers,
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Yes - we British do not have a great record when it comes down to attempting to solve problems by partitioning countries.
Ireland, India and Palestine are the obvious examples.
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The partition, India and Pakistan.
"In the riots which preceded the partition in the Punjab region, between 200,000 and 500,000 people were killed in the retributive genocide between the religions. UNHCR estimates 14 million Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims were displaced during the partition; it was the largest mass migration in human history".
We must get the "Paris attacks" in perspective.
Cheers,
Only 130 people were murdered in Paris? So what, in perspective? Is that what you're saying? If not, you're very close to doing so.....
You can make valid and interesting points about the chaos of Indian Partition, or many other tragedies, without such an odious and equally-irrelevant comparison with Paris.
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We must get the "Paris attacks" in perspective.
Does this means we should care more about "non-western" deads or that we should care less about western deads?
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I can't see what the perspective is that we should glean from the OP.
Is it merely a numbers game?
As far as I am concerned comparing what happened in the Indian subcontinent 60-70 years ago with a terrorist attack in Paris a few days ago is meaningless.
Neither the overall landscape of world affairs then and now nor the political motives leading to the events then and now have any real basis for comparison.
If there is any real basis for comparison then it should be spelt out - the fact that both were awful events with lots of deaths does not count.
Tony Jay
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I don't see any connection. An ill judged thread. :( :o
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Most people don't know what or where the Punjab is. Of course, trying to downplay the horror of Paris by comparing numbers is a little odious. It's all pretty sickening.
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I don't think anyone is trying to downplay Paris.
There are plenty of people on this earth trying to up-play it, however, for a wide variety of reasons.
Paris is a reminder, uncomfortably close to home, uncomfortably western, of how unpleasant people can be to one another. Will it be of great historical weight? Only if it serves successfully as a point upon which the West can be whipped into a frenzy of poor decisions. Was it terrible and incomprehensible for those directly affected, for those involved, for those who lost loved ones? Of course it was.
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What happened in the Punjab won't effect is here in the US. However, what ISIS did in Paris will continue to happen. So discussing what we should do or not do is certainly important and timely.
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One million dead in the Iraq Iranian war. Nobody gives a damn, fought using French and American weapons, shame!
Cheers,
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One million dead in the Iraq Iranian war. Nobody gives a damn, fought using French and American weapons, shame!
Cheers,
Sorry, but it's you who should feel shame for your initial misjudged post. Why not just say you were drunk instead of digging your hole deeper? Other bad things happened in history, sure. That doesn't mean Paris needs to be put "in perspective" against them in the crass way that you accomplished.
Now you introduce another irrelevant comparison! Don't let facts get in your way, but just who exactly supplied Iraq's tanks, APCs, air defences... and trained its army? French-made T55s and T62s, eh? Iraq had a handful of Mirages but had been a Soviet ally for 20+ years up to that period, and Iran had turned against the Satans in the West. That war was nowt to do with us. So stop beating yourself up, mate, you'll be blaming the West for the Mongols next. Billions of cuddly dinosaurs died, too. Wow, puts "Paris attacks" in perspective, eh?
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One million dead in the Iraq Iranian war. Nobody gives a damn, fought using French and American weapons, shame!
Cheers,
I still don't understand if this means we should care more about "non-western" deads or that we should care less about western deads.
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One million dead in the Iraq Iranian war. Nobody gives a damn, fought using French and American weapons, shame!
Cheers,
How many more conflicts are you going to dredge up? :o
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Hey, 130 persons died in Paris. Three thousand died in New York during 911.
One million plus muslims died in the Iraq/Iran war.
Half a million muslims plus died in Indonesia due to the cold war.
One million plus muslims/hindus died due the partition of India.
Paris is a tragedy, please don't forget history.
Cheers,
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Hey, 130 persons died in Paris. Three thousand died in New York during 911.
One million plus muslims died in the Iraq/Iran war.
Half a million muslims plus died in Indonesia due to the cold war.
One million plus muslims/hindus died due the partition of India.
Paris is a tragedy, please don't forget history.
Cheers,
Again, I still don't understand if this means we should care more about "non-western" deads or that we should care less about western deads.
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Hey, 130 persons died in Paris. Three thousand died in New York during 911.
One million plus muslims died in the Iraq/Iran war.
Half a million muslims plus died in Indonesia due to the cold war.
One million plus muslims/hindus died due the partition of India.
Paris is a tragedy, please don't forget history.
Cheers,
Well, it seems your grasp on it is as lame as your comparisons are obnoxious - and ridiculous.
Hey, next time you meet an Aborigine, just tell him to put "in perspective" the decimation of his people in the settlement of Australia. Get over it, mate, in S America the Spanish wiped out 50 or more times as many people and their culture was far more developed than anything in pre-colonial Australia. Good luck.
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Hey, 130 persons died in Paris. Three thousand died in New York during 911.
One million plus muslims died in the Iraq/Iran war.
Half a million muslims plus died in Indonesia due to the cold war.
One million plus muslims/hindus died due the partition of India.
Paris is a tragedy, please don't forget history.
Cheers,
Will you be paying the proposed 12 dollars a year to continue posting these kind of comments? Is this you farewell contribution to the forum?
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Maybe more related to the 130 people that got killed in Paris is the ongoing bombardment on the territory of IS in Syria.
The French, Americans, British, Dutch ,Russia etc bombs kill a lot of people, al put away as terrorists, almost called to be not human. As a reaction of the paris attacks these bombings are intensified.
As we know even ‘smart bombs’ tend to kill the wrong people, giving rise to feelings of revenge and hate. ( as often - no side has a benefit in counting these victims)
In Dutch newspapers these reactions are questioned to be increasing the conflict rather than solving it.
I would like to see a different, less violent approach to this conflict, that would include isolating IS; making sure IS cannot buy weapons and goods nor sell oil; creating large save havens in Syria for people that want to escape this terrible war and can live in peace, while building a new society.
Also i would like to see more support for countries with good governments like Tunisia.
Tunisia is the only country were the Arabic Spring led to a stable democracy.
In the case of Tunisia for instance one attack on a resort ( el Qaida/IS) was enough to diminish most of the tourist-industry of the country, effectively trying to stabilize this country.
We better put some of the money we spend on weapons into helping these countries that want to do right instead of only destroying people and goods while feeding feelings of hatred.
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The partition, India and Pakistan.
"In the riots which preceded the partition in the Punjab region, between 200,000 and 500,000 people were killed in the retributive genocide between the religions. UNHCR estimates 14 million Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims were displaced during the partition; it was the largest mass migration in human history".
We must get the "Paris attacks" in perspective.
Cheers,
What perspective? From wide angle or telephoto lens?
1 dead is a tragedy, 130 are not statistics...
I could also say that after the 1974 revolution in Portugal and the independence of former African colonies, Portugal had to receive about 500,000 people returning from those countries. We were a country in turmoil at the time, but we received them. I could also perspectivate that compared to 500,000 coming to one country, 200,000 refugees coming into Europe in nothing... that does not diminish their suffering, or put it in perspective.
Do yourself a favour, go to Paris and talk some perspective into the victim's families...
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It looks like several things got lost, in the irrelevant perspective of mere numbers.
1. The latest Paris attack was a (symbolic) attack on Western society as a whole as a product of Enlightenment. Free thought is an abhorrence in the eyes of dogmatic/brainwashed/misguided loons, and France is in their eyes the symbol/source of that freedom. This attack was the first in what they hope to be a string of attacks meant to destabilize "the West". It is also an a-symmetric war tactic to divert the attention from their military losses in the Iraq/Syria region.
2. IS is a direct product of the War in Iraq. The IS leadership is formed by former top ranking Iraqi military and political leadership, removed from the elite positions they got as Arab Socialist Ba'ath party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba'ath_Party) members under Saddam Hussein, and who were marginalized under the transition leadership of the US diplomat Paul Bremer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bremer) who also led the De-Ba'athification of the Iraqi civil service (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bremer#.22De-Ba.27thification.22_of_the_Iraqi_civil_service)) as the leader of the Coalition Provisional Authority. They went from their high elite status and well paid positions to nothing, and had no other option than to leave the country and they took the opportunity to create a state of their own, where they could proclaim their (in Iraq a minority) Sunni Arab dominated faction. Being well educated and trained in running a dictatorship, it was a relatively small step for them.
Cheers,
Bart
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Hey, the Paris attacks have been sensational.
Millions have been killed by the allies, Britain, France, Russia, America, etc. Nobody gives a damn!
Cheers,
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Hey, the Paris attacks have been sensational.
Millions have been killed by the allies, Britain, France, Russia, America, etc. Nobody gives a damn!
Cheers,
No, no-one gives a damn because your comparison is simply sick, and your grasp of history is just half-baked. Give up drinking, mate.
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Hey, the Paris attacks have been sensational.
Millions have been killed by the allies, Britain, France, Russia, America, etc. Nobody gives a damn!
Cheers,
Again, I still don't understand if this means we should care more about "non-western" deads or that we should care less about western deads.
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Bart. Paris and the Russian jet incidents may not be attacks on Western enlightenment. It could just be one side returning attacks made by the other side. That usually happens in war.
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Bart. Paris and the Russian jet incidents may not be attacks on Western enlightenment. It could just be one side returning attacks made by the other side. That usually happens in war.
Hi Alan,
If I'm to believe the former Major General Frank van Kappen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_van_Kappen) of the Netherlands Marine Corps (who also acts in his current role as commentator after his retirement from the military), a-symmetric warfare is a common tactic when an army (IS in this case) is incurring losses caused by material superiority of their opponent. Take the guerilla battle to the streets of the opponent, in order to weaken public support (it's more a morale thing than creating real casualties).
Remember, we are dealing with the military elite of the former Iraqi government, in their new role. They are clever people with warped ideologies. That's why it will also be brought to the USA, to undermine public support for the actions against them in the Syria/Iraq region.
Cheers,
Bart
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Bart, I think you are going off topic - though whether the original topic has any value....
There is a big difference not just in the role of the ex-Iraqi military, but also in the ideology. While there appears to be involvement for reasons such as you suggest, pan Arabist Baathism was very different from the Islamist agenda. Secondly, Isis has until now been distinguished from other Islamist terrorism by its focus on establishing a viable geographical state and on not attacking the "far enemy". It fell out with Al Qaeda precisely because of this emphasis on the local concern of overthrowing Sikes Picot borders (see Fisk's article (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/robert-fisk-the-old-partition-of-the-middle-east-is-dead-i-dread-to-think-what-will-follow-9536467.html)). My reading, influenced by the work of Jason Burke (http://www.theguardian.com/profile/jasonburke), is that the Paris attacks do not appear at all consistent with the ex-Baathist leadership, but are probably more a case of ISIS's European adherents reverting to more AQ style methods. These individuals' objectives may well be as you describe, but I think it's a mistake to confuse their actions with the role of ex-Iraqis.
John
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The Paris attacks do not appear at all consistent with the ex-Baathist leadership, but are probably more a case of their European adherents reverting to more AQ style methods.
John, I see it differently. Also look at the timing (with military precision), a few weeks before French elections where a weak President François Hollande (who didn't handle the economic/banking crisis well at all) is potentially going to lose a lot of power to right-wing Nationalists (Marine le Pen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen)) that play the anti-Islam agenda. Social unrest may result, an unlikely climate for prolonging military intervention but likely to create more local social unrest.
The coming American elections will also be a significant timing exercise for IS, to get the candidate elected that will do worst for US international relations, thus isolating the USA from support in the international arena. Classic divide and conquer ...
Do not underestimate the people that are heading IS, they know what it takes to run a dictatorship in the international arena (getting around sanctions is a way of life, they still sell oil/gas/minerals/food produce/etc. and buy weapons and fund recrutement). Recrutement of easy to influence marginalized locals (e.g. in Belgium, and in the Paris suburbs, but also in other countries) is for them just another part of the war effort as they see it. These guys were trained in Syria on the use of weapons, and making bombs from household components that do not draw the attention from the authorities until it is too late.
Cheers,
Bart
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But concern about French/US elections is as much evidence of European/AQ-influenced views on what the conflict in Syria/Iraq is, and those are contrary to the raison d'etre and the track record of IS. It's been specifically about local concerns, not about attacking the far enemy. As with Al Qaeda, it's too easy to see a leadership or guiding organisation where there is really something more like a movement or range of ideas.
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But concern about French/US elections is as much evidence of European/AQ-influenced views on what the conflict in Syria/Iraq is, and those are contrary to the raison d'etre and the track record of IS. It's been specifically about local concerns, not about attacking the far enemy. As with Al Qaeda, it's too easy to see a leadership or guiding organisation where there is really something more like a movement or range of ideas.
ISIS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant) is nothing like Al Qaeda, they are very much more efficient in using the internet and other modern techniques. As the quote Wikipedia article says, "Islamic State (IS), is a Wahhabi/Salafi jihadist extremist militant group. It is led by and mainly composed of Sunni Arabs from Iraq and Syria." The former Iraq Ba'ath party leadership was also much more aggressive than their Syrian 'fellows', that's why they (when they fled Iraq) started in Syria. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (a born Iraqi) is the leader of their self-proclaimed caliphate.
Cheers,
Bart
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ISIS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant) is nothing like Al Qaeda, they are very much more efficient in using the internet and other modern techniques. As the quote Wikipedia article says, "Islamic State (IS), is a Wahhabi/Salafi jihadist extremist militant group. It is led by and mainly composed of Sunni Arabs from Iraq and Syria." The former Iraq Ba'ath party leadership was also much more aggressive than their Syrian 'fellows', that's why they (when they fled Iraq) started in Syria.
Cheers,
Bart
Use of the internet really isn't a distinction. AQ's propaganda was of its day, after 2001 it was fragmented and forced underground, while in 2015 IS can operate openly from cities in a more highly developed region than Waziristan. The idea that the Iraqi leadership has fled Iraq is also doubtful since Mosul and other major cities, some close to Baghdad, are were firmly under their control.
Both groups are indeed Wahabi/ Salafi. Beyond that, yes, IS is different from Al Qaeda, and that is exactly my argument. Rather than portraying this as the ex-Iraqi leadership switching to tactics contrary to their raison d'etre and track record, it's probably better to see Paris as their foreign adherents adopting AQ-style behaviour.
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Use of the internet really isn't a distinction.
Again, don't underestimate them. They publish a magazine, they take active part in fora, they use mosques and shopping malls in the Western countries to debate with and pick up new potential followers, they lead protest marches in democratic western countries, etc., all focused at recrutement, and successfully so. A whole different approach.
Cheers,
Bart
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I'm not underestimating anyone, just showing how it's bogus to say use of the internet is a distinction between the two (it's merely the difference between an underground orgn in Waziristan post 2001 and a pseudo state in urban M East 2015) or the IS leadership having fled Iraq, which they haven't. AQ also had a magazine, Inspire, so that's no different, and those who used to support AQ also had demos, protests and recruitment. I actually photographed one guy (a Mohammed Hamid) doing so at London's Speakers Corner c2006 and later recognised him when he was convicted of recruiting people to go to Syria and was nicknamed Osama Bin London in the press (FWIW at the time I thought he was a nice, engaging personality). What you're still doing is confusing IS, a group with an explicit local track record and raison d'etre, with foreigners who bought into that franchise but have added their AQ behaviour.
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Hey, I just wanted to make you think!
The Allies won WWII, how many Muslims have died due to their polices since.
Cheers,
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Hey, I just wanted to make you think!
The Allies won WWII, how many Muslims have died due to their polices since.
Cheers,
I don't have answer to your question, but over 100,000 people die annually just in USA due to prescribed medications. Going back to WWII, those losses would add up to more than 6 million. And that includes all denominations.
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I don't have answer to your question, but over 100,000 people die annually just in USA due to prescribed medications. Going back to WWII, those losses would add up to more than 6 million. And that includes all denominations.
Oh, no, Les, what have you done!? Now Tom is going to segue to his favorite subject: bashing the U.S. health care system ;)
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Hey, I just wanted to make you think!
The Allies won WWII, how many Muslims have died due to their polices since.
Shame on you for not having done so first.
Keep beating yourself up, mate. I just read that humans wiped out the Neanderthals. 100%. Puts the "Paris attacks" in perpective, eh? /irony
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Hey, I just wanted to make you think!
The Allies won WWII, how many Muslims have died due to their polices since.
Cheers,
I think I still don't understand if this means we should care more about "non-western" deads or that we should care less about western deads.
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Shame on you for not having done so first.
Keep beating yourself up, mate. I just read that humans wiped out the Neanderthals. 100%. Puts the "Paris attacks" in perpective, eh? /irony
Talking of which the Neanderthals were German.* Had it coming to 'em huh!
*First discovered in the Neandertal valley.
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Talking of which the Neanderthals were German,* had it coming to 'em huh!
*First discovered in the Neandertal valley.
The last ones are thought to have been in southern Spain so if we play Tom's game and discount a few facts they might have been the Muslims of Andalus who were persecuted and driven out in the 15th century. Puts the "Paris attacks" into perspective. Made you think, eh? No?
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The last ones are thought to have been in southern Spain so if we play Tom's game and discount a few facts they might have been the Muslims of Andalus who were persecuted and driven out in the 15th century. Puts the "Paris attacks" into perspective. Made you think, eh? No?
You are all playing a game.
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You are all playing a game.
No, just mocking his half-baked knowledge of history.
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No, just mocking his half-baked knowledge of history.
Which is exactly the same thing, and it's not just the knowledge of history that counts, but also its interpretation and relevance to modern events.
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Which is exactly the same thing, and it's not just the knowledge of history that counts, but also its interpretation and relevance to modern events.
When the OP's knowledge is so half-baked, interpretation or comparison with recent events is worthless and in that case pretty sick.
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The point is that while people are dying, you lot are entertaining yourselves comparing the size of your ignorances.
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The point is that while people are dying, you lot are entertaining yourselves comparing the size of your ignorances.
Look at yourself in the mirror if you want to see ignorance.
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Hey, I just wanted to make you think!
The Allies won WWII, how many Muslims have died due to their polices since.
Cheers,
Well It's very thoughtful of you to make us think - I really didn't give a thought to the whole thing when we were in Paris a couple of weekends ago. I mean all those sirens going all night....
And anyway - are you trying to tell me people actually died in the Second World War - I thought they were just playing soldiers.
I really must try to start thinking about the bigger picture.
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Look at yourself in the mirror if you want to see ignorance.
It is to laugh!
This is seriously the best you've got? You are a ridiculous child.
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It is to laugh!
This is seriously the best you've got? You are a ridiculous child.
You blundered in with nothing to say apart from calling other posters ignorant. If all you have to offer is insults, expect the same back, jerk.
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If your memory extended back to more than the most recent post, you would realize that I've contributed a bit more than that in this thread and the other one.
But the internet is converging on an output only medium anyways, so I will let you get back to your yelling.
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If your memory extended back to more than the most recent post, you would realize that I've contributed a bit more than that in this thread and the other one.
But the internet is converging on an output only medium anyways, so I will let you get back to your yelling.
Ooh, an "an output only medium". Check out the big brain on Andrew.
Couldn't care less about the other post. All you have contributed here is throwing insults, so you reap what you sow.
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Enough. Topic locked