Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: sgwrx on October 27, 2015, 07:00:20 pm

Title: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: sgwrx on October 27, 2015, 07:00:20 pm
i was thinking about hyperfocal focusing/distance and it's either all or nothing isn't it?

meaning, you use the hyperfocal distance to focus at in order to pretty much get everything in frame to be in focus.

what you can't do is, get a foreground object in focus, then everything behind that object for the next say, 500ft to be out of focus, then beyond that 500ft to infinity to be in focus?

so lets say you were photographing a person standing 20ft away with say a field of flowers from 30ft - 500ft and a mountain several miles away.  there's no way to have the person in focus, then the field of flowers out of focus, but the distant mountain in focus.
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: tom b on October 27, 2015, 08:56:35 pm
The answer to your quest is called Photoshop.

Cheers,
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: rdonson on October 27, 2015, 09:02:17 pm
Think focus stacking.  As Tom points out that's a strength of Photoshop.
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: sgwrx on October 27, 2015, 09:12:36 pm
ok got it - not possible in one shot.  cool actually, never thought about using focus stacking that way.
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on October 28, 2015, 04:18:23 am
ok got it - not possible in one shot.  cool actually, never thought about using focus stacking that way.

Hi,

Focus stacking is one way of achieving it. You need to shoot slightly wider than intended, because both images will have a different magnification factor, and the focus stacking algorithms will resize to get both images into registration. The narrower angle of view of the closer shot (with most lens designs) will dictate the image boundaries of the composite.

Another way would be by using software like Photoshop or Topaz Labs LensEffects (http://www.topazlabs.com/lenseffects), which allow to create/use a depth map (distance map) which guides the lens blur algorithms to add realistic blur that transitions between no blur and full blur with specific lens/aperture characteristics. So you start with a fully focused image and add blur in a controlled fashion. This also allows to create more complex (de-)focus transitions.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: tom b on October 28, 2015, 06:16:51 am
You can do it with one image, think…
Photoshop
Masks
Filters
Gradients
These are skills more associated with a graphic artist than a photographer, good luck.

Cheers,
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: SanderKikkert on October 28, 2015, 06:59:28 am
This one seems to fit the bill, (foreground in focus then an area oof and then in focus again), anyone here any idea how this might have been done ?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/quizz/4786321803/in/dateposted/

I would be inclined to think it was with a lot of downward tilt movement as the oof area lies beneath the flat plane straight forward from the camera, however it may well be something completely different, done in post.

I thinks it looks magnifficent.

Stumbled upon this via onlandscape (http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2015/10/endframe-bogna-patrycja-altman/)

Cheers, Sander

Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: Jose Viegas on October 28, 2015, 07:13:30 am
This one seems to fit the bill, (foreground in focus then an area oof and then in focus again), anyone here any idea how this might have been done ?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/quizz/4786321803/in/dateposted/

I would be inclined to think it was with a lot of downward tilt movement as the oof area lies beneath the flat plane straight forward from the camera, however it may well be something completely different, done in post.

I thinks it looks magnifficent.

Stumbled upon this via onlandscape (http://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2015/10/endframe-bogna-patrycja-altman/)

Cheers, Sander

That image could also be two different images stack together, one for the foreground and another the background with the trees, might not even be taken on the same place.
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: Jimbo57 on October 28, 2015, 08:45:38 am

so lets say you were photographing a person standing 20ft away with say a field of flowers from 30ft - 500ft and a mountain several miles away.  there's no way to have the person in focus, then the field of flowers out of focus, but the distant mountain in focus.

Actually, with a 28mm lens (or shorter) at f/11 (or smaller), focussed on a point roughly 25 feet from the camera, that whole scene is likely to be perfecty acceptable "in focus".

If you want the person filling more of the frame, do it by cropping rather than moving closer.
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: AFairley on October 28, 2015, 11:27:31 am
If memory serves from my large format days (it has been quite a while), you may be able to obtain such an effect (fore and back ground more in focus than mid ground) by using a tilt lens and tilting it at wide aperture.  Current practitioners will be able to tell you if I'm right.
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: MarkL on October 28, 2015, 03:07:56 pm
so lets say you were photographing a person standing 20ft away with say a field of flowers from 30ft - 500ft and a mountain several miles away.  there's no way to have the person in focus, then the field of flowers out of focus, but the distant mountain in focus.

This would be one strange looking picture.
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: Lightsmith on October 28, 2015, 09:01:33 pm
A distant mountain is not truly going to be in sharp focus at infinity to any degree unless you are using a super telephoto lens. Even with a 85-105mm lens the distant mountain will not be in sharp focus with the limited amount of magnification. There is also the subjective aspect of such a scene for the viewer and having the individual in sharp focus with a relatively large aperture of say f4, the flowers will be out of focus but the lack of sharp focus will be much less apparent with the distant mountain.

Use a 24mm lens for example and the mountain will be greatly diminished in its relative size in the scene as compared to anything in the foreground. This perspective distortion can only be overcome with a 100mm focal length that presents the scene in a manner that is closer to what we perceive when viewing the scene with our eyes.

The question I have with regard to hyperfocal focusing is in the real world with a foreground object at a distance of 10 feet from the camera and a middle ground that is 30 feet from the camera and a background mountain at miles from the camera does using the calculated hyperfocal distance for the lens provide the sharpest image or is it better to focus at the foreground object that is 10 feet away. I have not seen anyone empirically evaluating the two different approaches with actual images created out in the field.
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: sgwrx on October 28, 2015, 10:24:28 pm
The question I have with regard to hyperfocal focusing is in the real world with a foreground object at a distance of 10 feet from the camera and a middle ground that is 30 feet from the camera and a background mountain at miles from the camera does using the calculated hyperfocal distance for the lens provide the sharpest image or is it better to focus at the foreground object that is 10 feet away. I have not seen anyone empirically evaluating the two different approaches with actual images created out in the field.

not understanding the physics behind it, i wondered to some extent the same thing.  and similarly are all areas in as good of focus as they would be if you focused on that area specifically regardless of whether or not other things are in focus.

i look at cell phone cameras, it's a tiny lens and sensor and pretty much everything seems in focus - for example when taking a shot of 4 or 5 people "at the game". so does lens size or sensor size majorly impact dof and how?  i know from my new full frame digital camera that oof areas are different than a smaller sensor - 6d compared to 7d.

thanks
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on October 29, 2015, 04:34:35 am
not understanding the physics behind it, i wondered to some extent the same thing.  and similarly are all areas in as good of focus as they would be if you focused on that area specifically regardless of whether or not other things are in focus.

i look at cell phone cameras, it's a tiny lens and sensor and pretty much everything seems in focus - for example when taking a shot of 4 or 5 people "at the game". so does lens size or sensor size majorly impact dof and how?  i know from my new full frame digital camera that oof areas are different than a smaller sensor - 6d compared to 7d.

Hi,

Smaller sensor cameras have shorter focal lengths, which thus magnify the optical detail/blur less, and as a consequence have more DOF.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: SanderKikkert on October 29, 2015, 04:55:45 am
The question I have with regard to hyperfocal focusing is in the real world with a foreground object at a distance of 10 feet from the camera and a middle ground that is 30 feet from the camera and a background mountain at miles from the camera does using the calculated hyperfocal distance for the lens provide the sharpest image or is it better to focus at the foreground object that is 10 feet away. I have not seen anyone empirically evaluating the two different approaches with actual images created out in the field.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/depth-of-field.htm

Remember that even within the range that is in focus according to hyperfocal math there is still within that range a difference in sharpness, the area close to the plane of focus appears (is) sharper then for example the extreme backend of the range, even though that would then still be 'acceptibly' sharp according to the formula.

If you want examples I strongly suggest doing some experiments yourself, work with different focal distances apertures etc. ,make notes while doing so and afterwards use your notes to check on screen how it all ended up looking.  A fun way to master how your different lenses beahve and how you can get the desired look you want/need ánd understand better how this stuff works. ;)

Cheers, Sander

Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: bjanes on October 29, 2015, 07:15:14 am
Actually, with a 28mm lens (or shorter) at f/11 (or smaller), focussed on a point roughly 25 feet from the camera, that whole scene is likely to be perfecty acceptable "in focus".

If you want the person filling more of the frame, do it by cropping rather than moving closer.

The problem with depth of field and hyperfocal calculations is that the calculations (and depth of field markers on the lens) often assume a small print size (~8x10 inches) and a viewer with less than 20/20 vision. For a viewer with 20/20 vision and a print size of 16x24 inches, the depth of field is considerably less.

Here are the results for your parameters as calculated by the Cambridge in Color calculator:

Regards,

Bill
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: elf on November 01, 2015, 03:04:02 am
i was thinking about hyperfocal focusing/distance and it's either all or nothing isn't it?

meaning, you use the hyperfocal distance to focus at in order to pretty much get everything in frame to be in focus.

what you can't do is, get a foreground object in focus, then everything behind that object for the next say, 500ft to be out of focus, then beyond that 500ft to infinity to be in focus?

so lets say you were photographing a person standing 20ft away with say a field of flowers from 30ft - 500ft and a mountain several miles away.  there's no way to have the person in focus, then the field of flowers out of focus, but the distant mountain in focus.

It all depends on where each object is in relation to the focus plane.  If the person and the mountain are on the focus plane and the flowers are not, then you could make the desired photograph.  I'd recommend reading everything Harold Merklinger has written on the subject.
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: Wayne Fox on November 02, 2015, 03:08:24 pm
This would be one strange looking picture.
just what I was thinking ...
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on November 02, 2015, 10:41:52 pm
You can get the desired effect in one shot, with limited composition options, by using a "split field" filter, which is like a close-up filter cut in half.
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: Allen Bourgeois on January 06, 2016, 08:43:20 pm
I use the DoF scales on my lens.

If you are using a view camera you can control a lot by tilting the front lens board.
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing, strictly talking
Post by: ErikKaffehr on January 07, 2016, 02:45:48 pm
Hi,

Strictly speaking, hyperfocal focusing is a technique that guaranties that everything will be out of focus except a single plane of focus which happens to be half way between infinity and closest distance.

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing, strictly talking
Post by: AFairley on January 08, 2016, 11:58:59 am
Hi,

Strictly speaking, hyperfocal focusing is a technique that guaranties that everything will be out of focus except a single plane of focus which happens to be half way between infinity and closest distance.

Best regards
Erik

+1  :)
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing
Post by: dwswager on February 20, 2016, 10:19:02 pm
The problem with depth of field and hyperfocal calculations is that the calculations (and depth of field markers on the lens) often assume a small print size (~8x10 inches) and a viewer with less than 20/20 vision. For a viewer with 20/20 vision and a print size of 16x24 inches, the depth of field is considerably less.

Here are the results for your parameters as calculated by the Cambridge in Color calculator:

Regards,

Bill

What's missing from the Cambridge calculator is what "circle of confusion" their calculator selects to use for the hyper focal calculations with a 24" print size, 25cm viewing distance and 20/20 vision.   

I consider the used parameters not only meaningless, but foolish.  I have 24" (long edge) prints on my wall and usually they are viewed by some 10 feet, not 10 inches!  If we just change the viewing distance to 1m (3ft), then the hyperfocal distance becomes 13.18ft and we get 6.8' to infinitity in focus even with 20/20 vision.

Hyperfocal calculations are based on the CoC which should be selected based on print size and REASONABLE viewing distances.  We cannot control for eyesight so "normal" vision is assumed.  A 4"x 6" print would normally beviewed from 10" or more. I am reminded of early ink jet printesr and people screaming "I can see the dots".  Well yeah, when viewing a print with a 4x loupe!
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing, strictly talking
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on February 21, 2016, 03:48:53 am
Hi,

Strictly speaking, hyperfocal focusing is a technique that guaranties that everything will be out of focus except a single plane of focus which happens to be half way between infinity and closest distance.

Best regards
Erik

Well, I guess you refer to the non-linear distance scale of the lens (hyperbolic) because strictly speaking, something half way between infinity and anything is at infinity too, but I'm sure you know that.  :)

I find it easier to understand is that the single plane of focus which is sharp (hyperfocal distance), is at twice the closest distance.

E.g, for a 50 mm lens for 35 mm full frame, using the "classical" criteria, the hyperfocal distance at f/16 is 4.94 m. and the closest distance is 2.47 m.  -> 4.94 = 2.47*2
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing, strictly talking
Post by: dwswager on February 22, 2016, 08:53:41 am
Hi,

Strictly speaking, hyperfocal focusing is a technique that guaranties that everything will be out of focus except a single plane of focus which happens to be half way between infinity and closest distance.

Best regards
Erik

Not sure the point of this statement because it is true, strictly speaking, no matter what focusing technique is used or where the lens if focused.  There will be a single plane in absolute focus and everything else will be out of focus.

The point of hyperfocal focusing is to permit imagery where there are close foreground objects and far background objects that are intended to be in focus.  Of course, applying this technique when the closest object in the image is beyond the hyperfocal distance means the photographer is foolish, but the technique is still sound.. 
Title: Re: hyperfocal focusing, strictly talking
Post by: Ludwig Nobel on February 26, 2016, 01:03:37 am
There will be a single plane in absolute focus and everything else will be out of focus.

Chuck Norris has everything in focus. From zero to infinity. And beyond. At f 1.4. Handheld in low/no light. Even without a lens.