Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: Bob Rockefeller on October 26, 2015, 10:40:14 am

Title: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Bob Rockefeller on October 26, 2015, 10:40:14 am
I'm contemplating a move from Lightroom to Capture One after the dead of Aperture and a somewhat "forced" move to Lightroom.

The Capture One image processing tools seem to suit me better than Lightroom's and do many of the same things, but in different ways. And I like not switch modes to go from browsing to adjusting.

But Lightroom's DAM features, IMHO, are as far ahead of Capture One's as Aperture's are/were ahead of Lightroom's.

Who had made, or is making, the move to Capture One from Lightroom and finding ways to "make do?" 
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: mgrayson on October 26, 2015, 11:15:31 am
I moved, sort of, from Aperture to C1. Aperture still works, and I haven't moved the 350GB library anywhere, but all my work for the past year or two has been in C1. Catalogs in v8 are stable enough that I'm thinking of moving more stuff over. I have <10,000 pics in a Catalog, and every shoot goes into a Session first, where many of them stay. Catalogs are MUCH better for searching many images, but bad experience with v7 Catalogs has left me shy. I've never had a problem with them in v8.. just being cautious.

The only things that could pry me off C1 are if they 1) go subscription only or 2) I settle on a MF system they don't support (Pentax or Leica), and even then, I might just use C1 with homemade profiles (dcamprof FTW!).

Best,

Matt (who uses LR when there is no alternative, or when printing)
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Bob Rockefeller on October 26, 2015, 11:38:48 am
Matt (who uses LR when there is no alternative, or when printing)

So C1 won't do the printing you need? Is it the quality of output or the convenience of creating recipes that's the problem?

It still makes me crazy trying to delete an image from the disk. If I'm in a collection, it's easy to remove the image from the collection or catalog, but not the disk. How do you handle that?
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on October 26, 2015, 12:34:55 pm
So C1 won't do the printing you need? Is it the quality of output or the convenience of creating recipes that's the problem?

It still makes me crazy trying to delete an image from the disk. If I'm in a collection, it's easy to remove the image from the collection or catalog, but not the disk. How do you handle that?

Hi Bob.

Removing a file is a two-step process. First step moves it to the (session) trash folder, where it can still be salvaged if you get second thoughts. Then, in the Capture One Library, you go to the (session) trash folder, and delete (selected) files and the settings for those files there.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: mgrayson on October 26, 2015, 01:07:29 pm
LR's printing module is one of the few things I like about ... all of Adobe, I guess. Aperture's is easy enough, but I feel more in control with LR, and get, I think, slightly better results. Granted, I've never used QImage.

C1? A few years ago, I got very strange colors printing from it and technical support told me that I couldn't print from a RAW - I had to output a TIFF first. That seemed quite odd. In version 8, I tried again. If I follow the online instructions EXACTLY, especially the order in which I bring up page setup dialogs, and settings, then I often get good results. Certain things, like margins, seem haunted - change one number, and others change in ways I still can't anticipate. Someday, I will learn how to keep an image centered while adjusting margins. But every third or fourth print comes out rotated or the wrong size. Until a new version of C1 touts their new printing module with detailed workflow videos, I'm exporting and printing elsewhere.

LR, by comparison, has clear layout tools. I'm never surprised by image size, placement, or orientation.

--Matt
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Doug Peterson on October 26, 2015, 03:51:06 pm
The only things that could pry me off C1 are if they 1) go subscription only

The C1 team has stated quite clearly that they will never eliminate the option for a perpetual license. They do offer a subscription model, but it's mostly targeted at larger institutions that prefer the subscription model because it spreads their costs out and provides them 100% clarity on their per-month costs (vs unknown intervals of upgrades). A fraction of the users are using subscription; most are buying the normal (perpetual) license once and then choosing to upgrade if/when they want. This provides, in my opinion, a great case study on how many end users PREFER perpetual licenses when offered both options.
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: BobShaw on October 26, 2015, 05:45:14 pm
I am looking at threads like this with interest. I use Aperture still. With apologies to Mark Twain, reports of its death are exaggerated.
I don't like Lightroom. The interface is cumbersome at best.
Capture One and Aperture catalogues can be on a server so they are the only options considered.

If anyone is having printing problems from anything then I recommend getting Mirage and all of your printing problems go away. Why print from an editing programme? You have keep repeating the same process over and over. Export a 16bit TIFF once and print from that, any size. I use it with a 3880.
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: kirmo on October 26, 2015, 06:10:20 pm
Started using Lightroom from 1.0 and been slowly switching to C1. Still some work done in LR.

Had mysterious printing problems with LR some years ago and switched to Mirage and 100% satisfied.

I also agree C1 lacks some of the DAM features that LR has and been long time hoping that something like
keywording would be better done in C1.

Anyhow more work goes through C1 and will never upgrade too monthly paying software.

Kirmo
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on October 26, 2015, 06:39:06 pm
Hi,

Staying with LR for a couple of reasons:


So, my heart is with Lightroom. But, I also feel that Lightroom has real issues with handling non OLP filtered sensors. Issues they need to fix and I have seen little movement in that direction.

But, hell will freeze to ice before I switch to Capture One, it is sort of personal so I can't explain it. I would much more likely use RawTherapee or Iridient's raw developer as alternative tools. I have a license for the present version of C1 and I use try it time to time. But we make no friends, simple as that.

Best regards
Erik

I'm contemplating a move from Lightroom to Capture One after the dead of Aperture and a somewhat "forced" move to Lightroom.

The Capture One image processing tools seem to suit me better than Lightroom's and do many of the same things, but in different ways. And I like not switch modes to go from browsing to adjusting.

But Lightroom's DAM features, IMHO, are as far ahead of Capture One's as Aperture's are/were ahead of Lightroom's.

Who had made, or is making, the move to Capture One from Lightroom and finding ways to "make do?"
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Hoggy on October 27, 2015, 04:53:45 am
Staying with LR for a couple of reasons:

  • Significant lock in because I have 70k+ images in Lightroom
  • I feel that Lightroom has been consistent since beta 3 back in 2006 when I started using it
  • Lightroom has DNG support
  • Not least because of DNG, Lightroom is much better documented
  • I find Capture One marketing a bit over the edge

So, my heart is with Lightroom. But, I also feel that Lightroom has real issues with handling non OLP filtered sensors. Issues they need to fix and I have seen little movement in that direction.

But, hell will freeze to ice before I switch to Capture One, it is sort of personal so I can't explain it. I would much more likely use RawTherapee or Iridient's raw developer as alternative tools. I have a license for the present version of C1 and I use try it time to time. But we make no friends, simple as that.

I tend to agree with this, especially the part about DNG support (in which Phase One seems to be starting support for, abeit it kicking and screaming  ;D ).  Although I only have about 6,000 images in total, I've done way too much work on them to switch completely.  LR's cataloging facilities are also lightyears ahead.

That being said, C1 is looking like something I will want to use from time to time.  The fact that it doesn't (yet) write anything back into the DNG's XMP is both a blessing and a curse for C1, IMO.  I'm finding it nice to have a secondary catalog that, coupled with not having any history, is wholly and completely separate from my main files to be an interesting creative outlet to experiment with alternative renderings of another processor's interpretation of the raw data (also without cluttering up my main [LR] catalog).  The downside to me of it not writing back into the DNG's is that I'm missing the reassurance of having a belt-and-suspenders type of backup, complete with snapshots/variants that would otherwise be stored into XMP - should any catalog issues ever occur.  Needles to say, I'm doing incredibly frequent backups - and on that note, it's nice that C1 doesn't force you sit and wait while it zips them up.

I'm also looking at DXO right now.  And DXO is much more suited to a LR workflow - and in fact it seems to be centered around it.  It can even save out 16 bit linear DNG's!  I think that allows for other additional LR corrections like WB-control, and even highlight and shadows recovery options..  And especially spot healing!  I'm finding LR's spot healing to be much better than both DXO & C1.
As far as noise goes, I've seen an article that showed C1's v7 noise reduction to be better than both DXO & C1.  However, in the couple tests I've done so far - LR seems much better than C1, but DXO seems better than LR.  Especially considering Luminance noise, here - chroma seems to be good in all of them.

So all in all, I think it's good to have a couple/few raw processors to keep your options open.  Each one seems to have pros and cons.
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Tony Jay on October 27, 2015, 05:24:17 am
Capture One is a very good raw converter.
However, to change from Lightroom to C1 would entail some major revisions to workflow.
Lightroom is so much more than a raw converter and that is really the issue.
The Digital-asset-managment capability of Lightroom is massive (the recent upset with the import module notwithstanding) and one way or another C1 is just lost in action here.

This is not really a criticism of C1 since the design of C1 is just to another workflow philosophy.
Apart from the fact that they are raw converters they are not really comparable as software packages as far as I am concerned.

Tony Jay
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Jimmy D Uptain on October 27, 2015, 07:05:56 am
I use both and will continue to do so.
C1 is much faster and way more customizable. Their process recipe options are to be envied by LR. Lets not forget sessions.
C1 biggest fault (in my situation) is the skewed colors on D800 files. They refuse to acknowledge its a problem. Thats their "look". ::)
However LR is just better for some files, has a much better search feature, and better soft-proofing.

Also using the CC model, I'm able to utilize PS's cloning and healing tools which are far superior to either LR or C1.

I honestly don't understand why folks feel like they have to choose one or the other. They work fine side by side.

Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Paul2660 on October 27, 2015, 08:26:14 am
I use both, and find each has unique features that I need.  Edit, amazingly I forgot to mention LR's history of adjustments. 

Capture One:

0.  LACK OF HISTORY OF ADJUSTMENTS PROCESS, MAKES WORKING BETWEEN IMAGES QUITE DIFFICULT
1.  By far the best color editor I have ever used.
2.  The fact you can now use the color editor/WB tool in local adjustments is also a very powerful tool
3.  Local adjustments, period, C1 does it better as they are treated as independent layers, unlike the adjustment brush/multiple brushes in LR
4.  The ABILITY to use sessions.  I have no desire to keep all my images in a catalog, just does not work for me.
5.  By far the best tool for Phase One back raws,
6.  LCC process is easy to use and works, unlike the LR process which I have never been able to get to work
7.  I have never tried to print from C1, and probably never will, as LR works great here.
8.  C1 can have bugs, (I run in windows) but they are few and far between
9.  C1 is fast and does seem to UNDERSTAND how to best use a graphics card, unlike LR
10. Zooming to 100% takes no extra time and is seamless

Lightroom

0.  HISTORY FEATURE, To me a huge advantage over ACR/CC and C1, invaluable for my workflow.***
1.  The new HDR and Pano tools are excellent additions.  The ability to create a multi-image pano, as a dng and still use the LR tools is very powerful.
2.  The new auto mask is amazing also and has huge potential
3.  Catalog only, I would prefer a session work flow
4.  Local adjustments are all on or all off, no way to only turn of one (which to me is an Adobe feature cut to keep CC use going), i.e. LR adjustments are
     seen as independent layers.
5.  Color editor in adjustment brush is OK, but nothing like the power in C1
6.  Toolset is good and getting better with each release
7.  LR is slow at times and seems to get memory leaks if open for a long period of time, requiring  reboot.
8.  I see excessive times (30 seconds to 45 seconds) to re-open some images and zooming to 100% can be worse if images have many adjustment
     brushes
9.  I still feel LR doesn't like working with a 30 inch monitor when zooming to 100% (something that has been around for years)
10.LR DOES NOT seem to handle a graphics processor well, in fact if enabled on my PC"s LR tends to slow down, GX470 Nvidia 1GB of ram
11.LR seems to work better for me on both Nikon and Fuji files but LR still needs to improve on their Fuji processing algorithm.
12.Print module works great and handles my printing needs for images up to 36" x 96"

Both tools can work to produce excellent results, and as many others have already commented, I can't ever see just moving to one of them. 

Paul C

*** Just today, I went back to some shots taken in April of 2015, and I can still see exactly what I did to get to where I currently have the image, C1 in session mode just can't offer this.  If you work a lot on your files in the raw converter as I do, such a history of adjustments is invaluable.  LR's is even better that CC (when working in CC not ACR) as once you close a file, the history is gone.  So for me this one single feature is a HUGE plus.  I have never understood why C1/Phase One can't make their software do this or why Phase One doesn't see this as  huge advantage.  It might have something to do with how C1 implements the local adjustments in layers?  I have asked many times on this forum and Phase's forum, but never have been given any answer other then use the back key, which is WORTHLESS if you are working on two or more images at a time as you will get lost where you are.  So C1 seems bogged down in a "work only on one image at time" mentality.  Sad.

Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Rory on October 27, 2015, 08:54:51 am
2.  The new auto mask is amazing also and has huge potential

What is this?
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Paul2660 on October 27, 2015, 09:20:25 am
The auto mask feature came out a few releases ago.  It IMO is the best selection tool I have ever seen or used, and really wish that Abode would move to CC, as selection over fine details are still very hard to do at least to me.  The auto mask can select a sky against a tree loaded horizon with amazing accuracy.  Here is link to a video that shows some of the features, by Wayne Fox.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LypUUCT7XFQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LypUUCT7XFQ)

Paul C
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Rory on October 27, 2015, 11:07:13 am
The auto mask feature came out a few releases ago.

Oh, okay.  You confused me with "new".   ;D Wayne's use is pretty ingenuous and I use it quite often.
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Paul2660 on October 27, 2015, 11:08:50 am
Yes, I guess it's been around enough it's no longer "new". 

Paul
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: christwo on October 27, 2015, 11:49:28 am
Using the trial version at the mo, not keen on the method of key wording or not being able to change the colour tag titles. However, I am processing images a lot quicker that I ever did in LR and I have been using that since VER 1.
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on October 27, 2015, 12:25:35 pm
Hi,

I've 'moved' to Capture One Pro a long time ago (although I keep using LR sometimes, for comparisons), because it's a better Raw converter (with more to come), and I do not need the kind of cataloging that LR offers. For postprocessing I use the best tools I can find/afford, so there are several of those (non-of them LR) as a Photoshop plugin or stand-alone application (FocusMagic, several of the Topaz-Labs plugins, PixInsight, HeliconFocus, PTGUI, etc.). For printed output, Qimage Ultimate is hard to beat

LR is a bit too much of Swiss-Army knife, lot's of tools in a compact envelope, but no real superior tools when compared to dedicated solutions. I'd need to trade too much quality for some convenience (and subscription aggravation).

So Capture One offers a much better start of the life of my images, for me.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: orc73 on November 04, 2015, 11:07:17 am
ok after all the highly professional(and highly appreciated) posts let me come with the stupid answer :)

Depending on the camera model the c1 converted images look just much better. maybe if you spend hours on LR you will get similar results.

If you need a big database to find and organise files for the future, LR is much better.
I ended up doing a c1 catalog now for every job and store them together with the photos. This makes me loosing control over my whole work, I can not search over all my files. On the other hand if you have a big database in LR, you better make sure you have 1(one) big storage device and a good migration process...if you start to split locations on different devices, it tends to get a mess and you are quite sure to run into data loss in the next migration. And you loose a lot of power each time you have to open the catalog with your files from the past 5 years work.
Not an option for me, they need to be splited in some way anyway.

So for now I go with the rather unprofessional solution to do projects 1by1.
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Shiever on November 04, 2015, 09:13:27 pm
Like Bob I am an Aperture user who has been using LR for about 16 months.  I am currently trialing C1.  I am finding that the image adjustments in C1 result in images that are a lot closer to those I did in Aperture.  It is a much more "controlled" experience.  There is a learning curve to C1, but much of the process is more similar to Aperture than LR, eg moving the "adjustment bricks" onto the image.  Yes the DAM aspect is inferior to LR, but since I am an enthusiast/amateur with just over 10K images, this is not a major issue with me.  I have not tried printing, but I may keep LR for those functions.  I am just tired of both Apple and Adobe jerking me around.  I am hoping Phase One is more focused on the photographer and not diverted to other things. 
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Doug Peterson on November 04, 2015, 11:11:49 pm
I ended up doing a c1 catalog now for every job and store them together with the photos.

You might want to consider Sessions instead.

This is exactly what they exist to do.
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: orc73 on November 05, 2015, 12:11:51 am
Thanks Doug, I was not quite sure if the sessions are till recommended for that or if they are just left over from legacy versions.

As for the picture quality have a look at the first Canon image in my experience report here:
http://www.valentino-photography.com/comparison-medium-format-hasselblad-vs-canon-5dsr/

The difference is significant enough for me. Sharpness and color is just much better out of the box.
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: budjames on November 09, 2015, 06:20:43 pm
I dumped my Canon 5D Mark III DSLRs and L lenses. For the past 2 years, I shoot exclusively with Fuji-XT1 and X100T.

I gave up on LR6 after seeing the incredibly better conversions I get from CaptureOne Pro 8 with the Fuji-X RAW files. I'm using the same year/month/day folder structure and reference this in C1P8. This way it works the same as LR. I can output finished Tifs to the same folder as the original RAW files then sync the folder in LR to bring in the new Tifs for DAM and printing capabilities. LR is still stronger than C1P8 with DAM and printing.

The image quality is worth the change over even though I have 100k+ images in my LR database representing over 2TBs.

Cheers.
Bud

www.budjames.photography
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Doug Peterson on November 09, 2015, 06:44:06 pm
Thanks Doug, I was not quite sure if the sessions are till recommended for that or if they are just left over from legacy versions.

As for the picture quality have a look at the first Canon image in my experience report here:
http://www.valentino-photography.com/comparison-medium-format-hasselblad-vs-canon-5dsr/

The difference is significant enough for me. Sharpness and color is just much better out of the box.

Sessions are not legacy. They are a core part of he program and the preferred option for most professional c1 workflows.
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Hoggy on November 09, 2015, 09:06:40 pm
I'm trying to get an understanding though of why C1 seems much less advanced in several areas (though a much better starting point than LR -- C1's auto actual works)..  Was Phase One just letting it languish by the wayside for a while there?  And now they're finally starting to give it some more TLC?
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: HCS on November 10, 2015, 07:18:38 am
I'm trying to get an understanding though of why C1 seems much less advanced in several areas ...

Could you elaborate a bit on that statement? I'm not understanding where it is less advanced, let alone much. And less advanced than what? Lr?
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: ErikKaffehr on November 10, 2015, 01:53:05 pm
Hi,

Right now, I feel that Capture One has a small (or even significant) advantage over Lightroom on non OLP-filtered camera systems. Lightroom may have advantages is some other areas. I honestly don't care. Lightroom is about parametric workflow. If you process more than a few images in Photoshop, you are not in a parametric workflow. In that case you may use any good raw converter.

Personally, I feel that I want to learn to make best use of single raw converter and the raw converter of my choice is Lightroom. Not because it is best, but because it fits my workflow.

Best regards
Erik

Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Paul2660 on November 10, 2015, 03:23:28 pm
To my liking neither C1 or LR really does a great job on Fuji X-trans raw.  I started with LR, moved to C1, then back to LR, overall in images with a lot of finer details, I feel I get more out of LR, especially in 300dpi conversions.  C1 seems to have a bit better color at first but in LR I can get there.  I wrote a bit on my findings here:

http://photosofarkansas.com/2015/10/27/fuji-x-trans-raw-conversions-which-is-best-lightroom-or-capture-one/ (http://photosofarkansas.com/2015/10/27/fuji-x-trans-raw-conversions-which-is-best-lightroom-or-capture-one/)

Make sure to click on the examples to see them at 100%.  I realize it's a totally personal pref.  Actually to me the best converter on Fuji is Iridient, but they have their own problems for my workflow.  Being MAC only is just one of them.
Paul C
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 12, 2015, 12:40:45 pm
If you are an artist, or a pro photographer that is interested in the best looking files, you are not moving anywhere. You are not moving from one to another as an end all. You will make use of each for each strong points.

If you are a business man and need to make things at the most efficient under a business model as first interest, you will want to stick with one. I would think that would be LR for a number of reasons. But I can also see the very deep yet opposite selection choosing C1 for some.
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: fdisilvestro on November 17, 2015, 05:46:35 am
I have starting using C1 as an alternative to LR. So far I like the results I get, but still consider myself a novice, discovering features every time I use it.

I find the sessions very useful for working tethered on location, usually on a portable computer. In the end a session is just a catalog (same data model) and a series of folders, where the paths to the images are relative instead of absolute (this is set in a flag in the catalog), which makes them easy to move from one location to another.

I have also set up a workflow to use C1 as a raw converter for LR, (not fully automatic) which allows me to keep LR as a DAM, stacking the C1 conversion to the original image just as another version.

Contrary to what it seems the general preference, I opted for the subscription model giving myself one year to learn the application and make a final decision.
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Doug Peterson on November 17, 2015, 05:08:44 pm
Contrary to what it seems the general preference, I opted for the subscription model giving myself one year to learn the application and make a final decision.

Subscription is used by maybe 10% of our customers. Most prefer to own the software. But it makes sense to use subscription as a sort of trial-run if the built-in 30 day trial is not enough for you.

When you're ready to buy a license you can get a Capture One Discount here (https://digitaltransitions.com/product/capture-one).
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: budjames on November 29, 2015, 05:44:59 am
To my liking neither C1 or LR really does a great job on Fuji X-trans raw.  I started with LR, moved to C1, then back to LR, overall in images with a lot of finer details, I feel I get more out of LR, especially in 300dpi conversions.  C1 seems to have a bit better color at first but in LR I can get there.  I wrote a bit on my findings here:

http://photosofarkansas.com/2015/10/27/fuji-x-trans-raw-conversions-which-is-best-lightroom-or-capture-one/ (http://photosofarkansas.com/2015/10/27/fuji-x-trans-raw-conversions-which-is-best-lightroom-or-capture-one/)

Make sure to click on the examples to see them at 100%.  I realize it's a totally personal pref.  Actually to me the best converter on Fuji is Iridient, but they have their own problems for my workflow.  Being MAC only is just one of them.
Paul C

I have been a LR user since the pre-public beta. After ditching Canon FF DSLR for Fuji-X (X-T1, X-E2 and X100T currently), I've been a quest for better RAW conversions that I was experiencing with LR (now v6 CC). I've been CaptureOne Pro 8 for the past two months and to me the improvement over LR is significant enough to warrant a change in my workflow.

Based on my personal experiences and lots of testing, I'm surprised by your conclusion. I hope that Adobe improves Fuji-X RAW conversions with future releases of LR, but for now, I'm happy with C1P8.

You can check out my latest Fuji-X portfolios one my website: www.budjames.photography

Cheers.
Bud James

www.budjames.photography
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: kencameron on November 29, 2015, 10:34:16 am
The auto mask feature came out a few releases ago.  It IMO is the best selection tool I have ever seen or used,
Agreed. Capture One also has an auto mask feature, but it doesn't work well, to the extent that even one of C1s own instructional videos is discouraging about its use. In other respects, C1 has some positives on local adjustments (layer based approach with the ability to name layers, color editing  and the ability to copy and invert selections). We can only hope that the two sets of engineers compete. I do find that LR gives me a more direct relationship with my files, as if I were painting on them rather than applying software to them. But that is a very personal reaction.
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Paul2660 on November 29, 2015, 10:59:09 am
Hi Ken,

Yes, I agree on the auto mask feature in C1,  in fact I had opened this thread a while back:

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102915.0 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102915.0)

Hoping to get a response from David G, but never did.  He sometimes avoids the possible negative issues others times not. 

Auto mask in C1 on a solid line, say a building works very well, as good as LR, but get to a tree line against a blue sky, or white sky etc, can't do it as well.  Sometimes it seems to get a good selection, others it can't. 
But I also agree with you 100% on C1 and layers/local adjustments.  A huge plus for C1, and I have to assume LR is not allowing it as it will complete with use of CC Photoshop, again a bit sad if true.  Also LR's inability to allow you to turn off 1 of multiple brush adjustments to see the effect is a big weakness to me, again I guess that would mean layers, so LR won't go there.  LR still is all or none on adjustment brushes (I tend to use many on one image). 

I would also love to see an invert button for a selection/bush etc. 

C1's local color adjustment tool within a local adjustment, also great, but again you can't overlap multiple local adjustments and make a color selection as the 2nd one will act blown out. 

To me the single greatest issue with C1, is lack of a history, but C1 has known about this for years, and has never addressed it.  Their method of just hitting the back button is OK for one image but what if you have several open at one time?  Not why a history is such a hard thing to code, or it's just possible C1/Phase One don't see it as important.  If C1 did not offer so much power in image adjustment, then I could see this, but again I may be the only person who finds the lack of a history of steps a bit important.  I am sure it's all about developed workflow.

Paul C
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Mike Guilbault on November 29, 2015, 10:24:52 pm
I was just lamenting today about missing the history in C1. Mind you, I didn't use it much, but when I needed it it was there in LR.  My main reason for switching to C1 is simply the speed. LR bogs down way too much and too frequently on my old MacPro.

I've actually had better success with the auto mask feature in C1 than I did in LR. Funny how that happens.


Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on November 30, 2015, 04:48:54 am
Hi Ken,

Yes, I agree on the auto mask feature in C1,  in fact I had opened this thread a while back:

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102915.0 (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102915.0)

Hoping to get a response from David G, but never did.  He sometimes avoids the possible negative issues others times not. 

Auto mask in C1 on a solid line, say a building works very well, as good as LR, but get to a tree line against a blue sky, or white sky etc, can't do it as well.  Sometimes it seems to get a good selection, others it can't. 
But I also agree with you 100% on C1 and layers/local adjustments.  A huge plus for C1, and I have to assume LR is not allowing it as it will complete with use of CC Photoshop, again a bit sad if true.  Also LR's inability to allow you to turn off 1 of multiple brush adjustments to see the effect is a big weakness to me, again I guess that would mean layers, so LR won't go there.  LR still is all or none on adjustment brushes (I tend to use many on one image). 

I would also love to see an invert button for a selection/bush etc. 

C1's local color adjustment tool within a local adjustment, also great, but again you can't overlap multiple local adjustments and make a color selection as the 2nd one will act blown out. 

To me the single greatest issue with C1, is lack of a history, but C1 has known about this for years, and has never addressed it.  Their method of just hitting the back button is OK for one image but what if you have several open at one time?  Not why a history is such a hard thing to code, or it's just possible C1/Phase One don't see it as important.  If C1 did not offer so much power in image adjustment, then I could see this, but again I may be the only person who finds the lack of a history of steps a bit important.  I am sure it's all about developed workflow.

Paul C

That's a bit unfair Paul!  I don't police LL daily, if I catch something I do.. if I don't, its more enough that I have simply missed it.

I would say if anyone is having an issue or usability problem with Capture One then the first port of call should be Phase One Support.  Its free, and you are untitled to it!

With regards to history, it is not actually an often requested feature.  People often see it as a 'nice to have' but don't really use it a great deal.  Main reason is that working on a RAW file is non destructive and any tool can be 'undone' at any point with no ill effect.

But again, if you want it in there - make a feature request via support so its logged.  ;)

Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Paul2660 on November 30, 2015, 09:50:43 am
Sorry David, did not mean to make it sound like I don't appreciate the time you spend here, I do.  That comment was a bit harsh.   I have used C1 is the 3.7x days longer than most. That goes back to 2003 or so. My post must have come across as a negative, which I guess it was in regards to the auto mask. 

I have given up on the need for history.  I have opened so many feature requests over the years on this, it's obvious that the design team has a totally different idea for the basic workflow than mine.  However I guess most folks just don't use the vast array of toolsets in this software.  I challenge you or anyone else to work up 6 files, with involved local adjustments and the like, or even worse IQ LCC files and Phase files, which sometimes need more tweaking.  If you are making a lot of smaller changes and doing a lot of work on the raw in C1, then having a history of steps is invaluable.  It's easy to get into an involved workflow in C1 on multiple files and end up needed to back out several steps.  The "back" button crosses each actual change, so it's going to back out across various files unless you have only worked 1 image at a time.  The only way I have current to file, is create a virtual copy, and start over. 

Yes, I use the tools in C1, they are extremely powerful, most times the raw conversion, only need slight tweaks in CC later on, mainly Topaz clarity and that is nominal.  C1 offers the end user huge benefits with the color editor and the fact that you can pin point an individual color in a local adjustment layer. 

I just don't see the need to use CC anymore with the tools available in C1 or LR both.

Paul C
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Paul Steunebrink on December 01, 2015, 02:50:41 pm
As a side mark in this discussion I found the auto mask feature in CO Pro 9 much improved. No jaggies along the borders as before. Not a feature mentioned in the marketing materials spread on the web (I even did not mention it in my review at http://imagealchemist.net/capture-one-pro-9-review/) but one of a (long?) list of improvements that came with the new release.
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Dan Wells on December 01, 2015, 06:13:58 pm
Interestingly, C1 v9 includes both keywording and masking improvements (as well as a better raw engine). I made the move to v8 a month and a half ago, and just upgraded to v9 today (with some great help from David at Phase One). I'm pretty confident that Phase is moving to better cataloging - they own Media Pro, which is a very powerful cataloging system, and the new keywording in C1 v9 (which I haven't had a chance to experiment with yet) seems suspiciously like they got it from Media Pro. My guess is that the reason we haven't seen a lot of updates to Media Pro lately is that they're busy integrating it into C1! If that IS what they're doing, when they finish, C1 will have the best cataloging system in the business.

I agree with the earlier posters who commented on C1's much better handling of X-Trans (compared to Lightroom) - that was one of the reasons I made the move (along with Adobe's import downgrade, which led me to worry about Adobe becoming more beginner-focused with Lightroom).

One huge advantage to C1 is Phase One - David reads these forums and responds regularly (and I'm sure he passes our feedback on to the development team). Their other product is $20,000+ digital backs - they're interested in the needs of serious photographers, not in converging photography and mobile phones.Whether or not they succeed with the backs long-term (and I have my doubts, both because of Pentax (and possibly Fuji in the near future) introducing MUCH cheaper MF digital, and because of the increasing image quality of smaller formats), they know serious photographers, and they're a tiny company whose whole focus is on serious photographers who actually use CAMERAS...

Much of Adobe's recent innovation is on the mobile side, and it almost has to be, given how big a company Adobe is, and the relative size of the phone and camera markets. Yes, Adobe backed down on the import downgrade, but I suspect we'll see an increasing number of beginner-focused and mobile-focused features, due to the sheer size of that market. Adobe's real long-term interest is in getting people to use Lightroom Mobile to manage and edit their iPhone photos, because so many people have iPhones.

Will Phase One ever match Lightroom's integrated modules (print, slideshow, etc.)? I don't know. I hope so - they could acquire the technology, as they seem to have done with cataloging by buying Media Pro...
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Bob Rockefeller on December 01, 2015, 06:23:23 pm
My guess is that the reason we haven't seen a lot of updates to Media Pro lately is that they're busy integrating it into C1! If that IS what they're doing, when they finish, C1 will have the best cataloging system in the business.

I really hope this is true. The poor cataloging system is my primary gripe with C1 and the main reason I stick with LR. I've kept updating C1, which is starting to get expensive - I just updated to v8 on 10/23/15 - a little outside the free update window.  :(

So I'll probably have to wait for a while before upgrading to v9. I can at least experiment with the trial, in the meantime.

One day, maybe v11, maybe v12, I'd be able to switch to C1 full time. As an old Aperture user, I like the interface better. But continue to hope Phase One will ditch to collections and follow Aperture's lead on cataloging a little more closely.
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Dan Wells on December 01, 2015, 06:32:26 pm
Try contacting P1 support on that upgrade! I had the same problem with being JUST outside the window, and David from P1 (active on the forum) made it right for me...
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Bob Rockefeller on December 01, 2015, 06:33:47 pm
Try contacting P1 support on that upgrade! I had the same problem with being JUST outside the window, and David from P1 (active on the forum) made it right for me...

Great tip! How did you contact them, via a support request ticket?
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Dan Wells on December 01, 2015, 06:41:14 pm
I got in touch with David through the forum (I was one of several to post on this issue in the long v9 thread and he PM'd me), while another user had a similar result through a support request ticket. It seems like Phase One is aware of a lot of folks with this issue, and they are working with people individually to make it right. Can you imagine Adobe doing this?
Title: Re: Who's moved from Lightroom to Capture One?
Post by: Bob Rockefeller on December 01, 2015, 06:43:33 pm
Thanks. I've submitted a support ticket.

And no, I can't imagine Adobe being accommodating at all. They're too huge.

But they may have been taken down a peg after the reaction to their changes to LR's import tool. :)