Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: geesbert on October 20, 2015, 03:51:10 pm
-
Have you seen the new SL? What an ugly camera! I can't believe it. Looks like a cardboard parody of a 60ties russian camera. The Lada of cameras. I wish Leica all the best, they make terrific cameras which i happily buy for years now, but this one?
-
Holy good gravy, that looks AWFUL.
Not only cosmetically, but I'm getting very tired of all this minimalist "control dials and a few flat buttons" nonsense. I shoot with the camera to my eye, and I want to be able to control it while it is up there, by touch.
I'll just about bear with the A7RII's hideous menu system because it has customisable buttons (though it is hard to figure which is which with the camera to your eye).
Horrid though the buttons are, 42 megapixels and 5 axis IBIS and electronic first curtain shutter and PDAF and face/eye focus that actually works leads to one indulging, if not forgiving, it's ergonomic sins.
Leica though? I just don't see that they have an excuse. They've been making cameras forever. Plus they are partners with Panasonic, who are capable of putting together the eminently pleasant-to-use GH4 with proper physical controls and details like "nipples" on the central of the three top buttons so you can tell which is which even with gloves on.
I don't think anyone will be doing that with the new Leica.
Leica lenses may be stellar, but have you tried the Sony Zeiss 55/1.8? No lens, however stunning, is going to reproduce detail on a 24 Megapixel sensor the way the Sony does on a 42 megapixel sensor. And is that ANOTHER new lens mount for Leica?
In fact I'm not entirely convinced that the new Leica is actually intended to take photographs with. It appears to be more in the spirit of Hasselblad Lunar hideousness. For that sort of money I just don't see who will buy this instead of a Sony, CaNikon for sports, or MF for detail and colour. Really, if you love Leica, why not head for the full-blown S series instead and get decent resolution to go with those beautiful lenses? How much does a second had Leica S cost these days? You can certainly get a Pentax 645Z for the cost of this Leica and a lens. (If I didn't already have MF kit I would certainly consider the Pentax).
I guess they know their market. And their market isn't me.
Cheers, Hywel
-
Why is this camera featured in the Compact System Camera forum? However, I thank dear Leica for the nice preview of what a future mirrorless medium format camera from Sony would look. Dimensions, weight and priced accordingly.
Now seriously. Other than been unexpectedly big, the design is hard to swallow. I bet in time more than one will acquire the taste, probably me included.
This new mirrorless camera and its whole incipient system is missing one very important thing: A bigger physical sensor or at least 20 more mp's.
I salute Leica for the effort, the guts and their faith for contemporary photography, which more and more becomes uncharted territory.
Eduardo
-
Why is this camera featured in the Compact System Camera forum? However, I thank dear Leica for the nice preview of what a future mirrorless medium format camera from Sony would look. Dimensions, weight and priced accordingly.
My understanding is that the "Compact System Cameras" was where all "Mirrorless" conversations were to be placed. Mind you, at the time the forum category was created, I'm pretty sure none of the Sony A7 gear was public knowledge. That said, my understanding is the SL is a 35mm sensor, right?
-
Most telling sentence from DPReview's hands-on:
"It took several DPR staffers to finally figure out how to change exposure modes."
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7448206943/a-lot-to-leica-hands-on-with-the-leica-sl-typ-601?slide=4
No, Leica. Seven thousand five hundred times no.
Jeez. When is one of these companies actually going to do a proper survey of working professional photographers to figure out what ergonomics a 21st Century camera should have? I know we all have different needs, but it astonishes me how we still don't have routine access to ETTR auto-modes, proper raw histograms, etc..
Michael and many others have been telling them what they should do for YEARS now.
So this Leica has a decent res EVF with acceptable refresh rate now, which is good. But one step forwards and about ten back.
Cheers, Hywel
-
Have you seen the new SL? What an ugly camera! I can't believe it.
Why do all new cameras look so bad? Stop giving design work to design nerds. Look at the Sigma DP2 Quattro ! The A7R II will not win a contest neither.
Time to hire some Italian designers.
-
One thing that must be said though is that this camera further emphazises the strategic mistakes done by Canon and Nikon in terms of product planning.
No, the SL isn't a credible competitor anywhere but in the chinese traders' microcosm as Lamborghini accessories, but it still is the first stepping stone of a FF mirrorless system with interesting technological components (at least the EVF and AF). Where they messed up, even thinking SL, is their lenses roadmap which appears to be extremely slow.
Of course must question the packaging and price point, but they probably make sense for the target buyers. Photographers will continue to buy a7II/D750's and work on their mortgage pay back... for now.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
You think this will have any impact on the market or canon/nikon?
its an utter irrelevance.
looks like a practical joke next to the sony lineup.
-
Why is this camera featured in the Compact System Camera forum?
Indeed.
This shot looks like some weird photoshopping has been done re size.
(https://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/2687/9398/original.jpg)
-
You think this will have any impact on the market or canon/nikon?
its an utter irrelevance.
looks like a practical joke next to the sony lineup.
Leica are not exactly after the same market as those other brands.
-
I'm not sure what market there is for a mirrorless system with a 24-90f4 zoom that is bigger than a 2.8 zoom and SLR?
Leica will of course sell some of these to people with more money than sense and an obsession with the red dot.
Even those will have some trouble figuring out this weeks mount naming policy.
-
You think this will have any impact on the market or canon/nikon?
No, but Canon and Nikon somehow let Leica Tesla them, which is a clear strategic mistake. They are turning into technological followers overall, even if the sensors used in Nikon bodies are still at least one generation ahead.
It could be argued that the Nikon J1/V1 was ahead of its time and shares the exact same design philosophy as recent Leica (and it preceeded them), so the blame may be even stronger for Canon.
Cheers,
Bernars
-
A mirrorless S with more compact lenses would make sense.
This is thing a misfire. I am sure Leica will get it right in due course, but neither the T nor this new SL are the right design.
Sony has got hi-rezh ybrid mirrorless and video down pat by now; they did the work and deserve the sales. Olympus Panasonic and Fuji have also paid their dues and are getting traction because they have standout features, eg. the very good internal video of the GH4 and the nice ergonomics of the OM series.
In the past there have been a lot of remarks about Japanese copying, but in the move to mirrorless we've been treated to an innovation slugfest, and the old heavies are getting spilled out of the competition.
Edmund
No, but Canon and Nikon somehow let Leica Tesla them, which is a clear strategic mistake. They are turning into technological followers.
It could be argued that the Nikon J1/V1 was ahead of its time and shares the exact same design philosophy as recent Leica (and it preceeded them), so the blame may be even stronger for Canon.
Cheers,
Bernars
-
A mirrorless S with more compact lenses would make sense.
Once I'd got over my WTF moment, my first thought was of Richard Young (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Young_(photographer)) ( the original pap) – how he would have loved this cam!
Thinking it over and glancing through the first reports, perhaps Leica aren't quite as dumb as a majority here seems to think. They're the first, and so far only one, to have brought a fully interoperable AF mirrorless to market capable of using their whole range of lenses – 145 of them: including 48 M's, 51 R's, 16 S's and even their C- range cine lenses (21). For anyone with Leica glass, particularly the S & M crowd (unintentional pun) It's the long awaited mirrorless body, in the same vein as the S. No more doubling up on lenses or cobbling a makeshift amalgam of other makes – assuming you 'like' or own Leica glass. It's even probable that you'll be able to use MF Contax and Hassy glass too – although piggy backing adapters probably wasn't uppermost in the design team's thoughts at inception.
For those who are hovering over a move to MF - for the price of a PhaseOne XF IQ140 kit, you could buy a Leica S(006) with 70mm Summarit AND an SL, all interoperable – and still have change left over. Probably the same with an IQ 250/350 vs S(007) comparison – I haven't done the maths yet. You own legacy Leica glass – even more appealing.
The only question mark, IMO, would be Leica's ability/intention to move to a a larger MF sensor in the future. And regarding the €6,000 / $7,500 body only price – well it's about the price of a new M / M-P, so take your pick.
It's not a cam with the appeal of the Sony A7xx series, nor the same price point, but as part of a 'complete' MF system, it has it's merits. I'd reserve any judgement until we get a clearer idea of the IQ.
I won't be buying it, but I give them kudos for having the guts to take on the heavyweights.
I wish them well.
-
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513%2Bn8ov%2BFL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
-
One thing that must be said though is that this camera further emphazises the strategic mistakes done by Canon and Nikon in terms of product planning.
Yup.
No, the SL isn't a credible competitor anywhere but in the chinese traders' microcosm as Lamborghini accessories .. Where they messed up, even thinking SL, is their lenses roadmap which appears to be extremely slow.
Don't think so (see above), but time will tell.
-
Edit:
BTW, Bernard, it's got twin card slots !
Best,
M
-
We don't think they're dumb; we just feel that a 40MP Sony crapocam is probably more useful in *our* ever so trembling and impoverished paws.
Edmund
Once I'd got over my WTF moment, my first thought was of Richard Young (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Young_(photographer)) ( the original pap) – how he would have loved this cam!
Thinking it over and glancing through the first reports, perhaps Leica aren't quite as dumb as a majority here seems to think. They're the first, and so far only one, to have brought a fully interoperable AF mirrorless to market capable of using their whole range of lenses – 145 of them: including 48 M's, 51 R's, 16 S's and even their C- range cine lenses (21). For anyone with Leica glass, particularly the S & M crowd (unintentional pun) It's the long awaited mirrorless body, in the same vein as the S. No more doubling up on lenses or cobbling a makeshift amalgam of other makes – assuming you 'like' or own Leica glass. It's even probable that you'll be able to use MF Contax and Hassy glass too – although piggy backing adapters probably wasn't uppermost in the design team's thoughts at inception.
For those who are hovering over a move to MF - for the price of a PhaseOne XF IQ140 kit, you could buy a Leica S(006) with 70mm Summarit AND an SL, all interoperable – and still have change left over. Probably the same with an IQ 250/350 vs S(007) comparison – I haven't done the maths yet. You own legacy Leica glass – even more appealing.
The only question mark, IMO, would be Leica's ability/intention to move to a a larger MF sensor in the future. And regarding the €6,000 / $7,500 body only price – well it's about the price of a new M / M-P, so take your pick.
It's not a cam with the appeal of the Sony A7xx series, nor the same price point, but as part of a 'complete' MF system, it has it's merits. I'd reserve any judgement until we get a clearer idea of the IQ.
I won't be buying it, but I give them kudos for having the guts to take on the heavyweights.
I wish them well.
-
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513%2Bn8ov%2BFL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
-
Good move from Leica and IMO one that will prove to be successful over time.
If the 50mm Summilux is of the same quality (or better) as its M equivalent they have got a winner!
-
Don't think so (see above), but time will tell.
The ability to mount existing lenses is nice, no doubt. But really, the value of mounting S lenses on the SL is questionable at best. As far as M lenses go, this could be more interesting, but we need to see how well they work with their sensor. Besides, I am not super convinced that this large camera is the best body to mount M lenses on. My Sony a5100 seems like a better match.
Now my comment was more about the roadmap for native AF SL lenses.
BTW, Bernard, it's got twin card slots !
Yep, saw that, no need to jump up an down though, everybody does that except Sony. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Good move from Leica and IMO one that will prove to be successful over time.
If the 50mm Summilux is of the same quality (or better) as its M equivalent they have got a winner!
We'll find out beginning of 2017...
By that time Sony will have released the a7RIII.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
We'll find out beginning of 2017...
By that time Sony will have released the a7RIII.
Cheers,
Bernard
I am guessing probably the a7RIV already...
As an owner of R lenses do you believe this camera could appeal to people with a lot of R glass?
-
We don't think they're dumb; we just feel that a 40MP Sony crapocam is probably more useful in *our* ever so trembling and impoverished paws.
Edmund,
I was one of the first adapters of the 'crapocam', replete with shutter niceties, since it's initial introduction. I still am and 'our' impoverished paws are probably still best served by its second incarnation, even more so as Sony thankfully deprived us of the joys of the original's shutter shake, rattle & roll.
But as part of a larger (MF) system as opposed to purely a standalone mirrorless, Leica may be on the right track. Access to Leica legacy glass changes the price dynamics considerably and if the wide angle woes have been overcome – the appeal will be even greater and the TCO considerably less.
All best,
M
-
We'll find out beginning of 2017...
By that time Sony will have released the a7RIII.
Cheers,
Bernard
Sony have a good AF 50 cheapie in their range.
If I were to use a Leica it would be the S - get an S used and you have a decent piece of gear.
Edmund
-
That is the ugliest camera I have ever seen.
-
I am guessing probably the a7RIV already...
As an owner of R lenses do you believe this camera could appeal to people with a lot of R glass?
Yes, perhaps. Those who have not yet converted them to another mount I guess?
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Edmund,
I was one of the first adapters of the 'crapocam', replete with shutter niceties, since it's initial introduction. I still am and 'our' impoverished paws are probably still best served by its second incarnation, even more so as Sony thankfully deprived us of the joys of the original's shutter shake, rattle & roll.
But as part of a larger (MF) system as opposed to purely a standalone mirrorless, Leica may be on the right track. Access to Leica legacy glass changes the price dynamics considerably and if the wide angle woes have been overcome – the appeal will be even greater and the TCO considerably less.
All best,
M
Manoli,
I believe that a mirrorless S could crop any lens under the sun, and would knock the ball out of the park. But a huge 20MP 35mm camera? For people who bought M glass to have something small and tidy?
Apart from that, if all you want is 20MP, any used camera on the market can give it to you - my Canon 1Ds3 & 85 1.2 combo is now "worth" less than $1500 on the used market, just to put things in perspective, the dealer won't even part-exchange it for a crapocam, and its only real issue is the dreadful weight. .
Edmund
-
Yes, perhaps. Those who have not yet converted them to another mount I guess?
Cheers,
Bernard
R glass will work fine on the Sony crapocam ...not only on the Leica luxocam.
Edmund
-
Sony have a good AF 50 cheapie in their range.
If I were to use a Leica it would be the S - get an S used and you have a decent piece of gear.
Agreed on both accounts.
The S lenses are very appealing, the S body less so to me, but I could see myself using one. Anyway, it really depends on the target applications, the shutter lenses obviously shine for outdoor flash but I don't do much of that. And even if that were to change, I would probably go the phase route I guess. They should have something real nice once (if ?) the 36x48mm CMOS 100mp~ chips become available. Something that wouldn't have to be replaced for many many years to come.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
Apart from that, if all you want is 20MP, any used camera on the market can give it to you - my Canon 1Ds3 & 85 1.2 combo is now "worth" less than $1500 on the used market ...
Edmund,
I've sent you a PM.
M
-
But a huge 20MP 35mm camera?
24mp.
A reminder, again, that Leica trades in the luxury goods market. The needs & desires of more practical-minded folk aren't of much concern, nor do they need to be (for now anyway).
-Dave-
-
Purely judging by the hostile reactions of Sony shooters Leica must have done something right...
-
What I find interesting is that people refer to a 3000 USD+ camera as a "crapocam"... So 3000 USD seems to be the new "cheap" and affordable price tier...
As for the new Leica, well, it costs a lot, its controversy worthy, so what is new really?
And it is not a new mount, as someone said, it is T mount.
-
What I find interesting is that people refer to a 3000 USD+ camera as a "crapocam"... So 3000 USD seems to be the new "cheap" and affordable price tier...
Edmund is in fact a Chinese trader from HK pretending to be a unioned French worker. 3,000 US$ is the average price of the wine glass he drinks at lunch on week days.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
So 3000 USD seems to be the new "cheap" and affordable price tier...
3000 US is a significant price drop from what the pro Nikon & Canon bodies cost not long ago.
I think the D810 / 5DIII / Sony A7rII are pretty good value given the image quality.
Without knowing how talented it is yet, the New Leica seems expensive for a 24mp FF IMHO.
-
R glass will work fine on the Sony crapocam ...not only on the Leica luxocam.
Edmund
I find it really disappointing to see comments like this. For whatever reason I expect better on this site.
I do have an interest as the A7 plus the 35mm f2.8, 55mm f1.8 and my manual lenses is the best camera I've ever owned for my needs but even so, bad form eronald, IMVHO.
-
R glass will work fine on the Sony crapocam ...not only on the Leica luxocam.
I agree, bad form. The Sony a7-series cameras have left lots of room for improvement but I would not characterize it as a crapocam, not even facetiously, likewise I'd avoid a sound-bite-worthy luxocam label just because it's not the right camera for me.
Regarding R lenses on the a7-series: what I'd like to see is a smaller first viewfinder magnification step, a shutter that is as quiet and responsive as it is with EFC at speeds faster than 1/1000 sec where EFC fails (or a better way of switching EFC on or off other than menu-diving), and an adapter that operates the auto-diaphragm of the lens.
-
I think it is one of the best Leïca camera to date, no compromise. It is extremely solid and weather sealed, the EVF seems finally reasonably big / bright and adjustable (on/off sensitivity), the video part is perfect and solid for most applications, 24 well resolved millions pixels @ 11 fps if needed... seems perfect by today standards, even for big printing, the lenses are big and expensive but one would expect very good IQ across the range.
Next year will be about the prime range, expect a 24/35 and 85 f1.4 by the end of 2017 so it will be pretty cool.
It ain't a camera for ppl who like to "upgrade" every 3 month and rent their cars. It is for ppl who like to OWN a good piece of durable gear and are not too sensitive to the marketing. Such a solid camera can be a long term investment (more than 5 years) as the D700 was (and still is, It's my main gear).
The price might drop with time, like S and S2 price dropped with time.
A correct review of Ming : http://blog.mingthein.com/2015/10/21/premiere-review-2015-leica-sl-601/
-
I think it is one of the best Leïca camera to date, no compromise. It is extremely solid and weather sealed, the EVF seems finally reasonably big / bright and adjustable (on/off sensitivity), the video part is perfect and solid for most applications, 24 well resolved millions pixels @ 11 fps if needed... seems perfect by today standards, even for big printing, the lenses are big and expensive but one would expect very good IQ across the range.
Next year will be about the prime range, expect a 24/35 and 85 f1.4 by the end of 2017 so it will be pretty cool.
It ain't a camera for ppl who like to "upgrade" every 3 month and rent their cars. It is for ppl who like to OWN a good piece of durable gear and are not too sensitive to the marketing. Such a solid camera can be a long term investment (more than 5 years) as the D700 was (and still is, It's my main gear).
The price might drop with time, like S and S2 price dropped with time.
A correct review of Ming : http://blog.mingthein.com/2015/10/21/premiere-review-2015-leica-sl-601/
:)
I also like this comment:
"Ming Thein says:
October 21, 2015 at 12:54 PM
Compared to the A7RII, it focuses faster, shoots faster, turns on faster, reviews faster, writes faster, has (mostly) better UI and controls, better sealing, MUCH better battery life. I agree none of these things should increase the cost by 2x, but people who think the A7RII is God are deluded. I bought one with my own money and have been shooting it for the last three months: it still feels like a beta exercise."
-
Time to hire some Italian designers.
That worked so well for Hasselblad. http://press.hasselblad.com/press-releases/2012/2012-10-10_idc.aspx
-
I agree, bad form. The Sony a7-series cameras have left lots of room for improvement but I would not characterize it as a crapocam, not even facetiously, likewise I'd avoid a sound-bite-worthy luxocam label just because it's not the right camera for me.
You know, I think you're right. I'll call the A7RII the wondercam from now on, as everyone here seems to agree that Sony has done a nice job. Of note, the fact that the A72 sells at less than E2K in Europe, so the wondercam is also doing wonders for Sony's bottom line :)
As far as the Leica is concerned, I'll change my Luxocam labelling when the first forum buyers defend it wit firsthand knowledge ...
Edmund
-
"Ming Thein says:
October 21, 2015 at 12:54 PM
Compared to the A7RII, it focuses faster, shoots faster, turns on faster, reviews faster, writes faster, has (mostly) better UI and controls, better sealing, MUCH better battery life. I agree none of these things should increase the cost by 2x, but people who think the A7RII is God are deluded. I bought one with my own money and have been shooting it for the last three months: it still feels like a beta exercise."
It feels like a beta exercise since day one of the Nex series. PPl who use those camera and say "ho !! ha!! this is the best !! ho!! ha!!" just crack me up. Those ppl never used a Nikon D700/800/3/3s/4/4s (or canon counterparts) . Just because of the UI, the whole mirror-less Sony venture stay and will stay a joke compared to a pro Nikon menu and ergonomic. Some ppl cry out loud when someone say those Sony gear are "toys" but hey !! They are toys, expensive toys, who feel and act like toys, with miserable user experience.
When you see supposedly very good and respected photographers endorsing and saying that Sony is the pinnacle in photography ... I just want to go AFK walking and forgetting.
For me, the more the fact of "taking a photography" is easy, the less is the pleasure of photography. Ofc there is a threshold but I do not know yet any ppl who get personal satisfaction / achievement out of easy work.
The ones who stand straight in their boots saying me the contrary are just a bunch of lazy potatoes or weak jerky hipsters.
When a pro become a fashion victim, it ain't a pro anymore. H.Bowman
-
I don't think it is fair to call any of these cameras crap. Everyone has different use cases after all, and all of these cameras are astonishing technological triumphs compared with the old Canon D30 I still have in my storeroom for sentimental reasons.
I did have a go at the SL earlier in the thread, but it was unfair of me. It was without having hands on of course, and it might just be sublime to use despite what look to me like ergonomics that are far from my own tastes.
I'm a bit of an iconoclast when it comes to ergonomics- I still think Lightroom is a ghastly mess, and Photoshop is even worse.
Clearly, few photographers agree with me (except for those few brave souls who prefer Aperture, Capture One, Phocus or DXO...)
BUT BUT BUT... the Leica does not even begin to tempt me to part with any cash. If it had been a mirrorless Leica S medium format with that wicked viewfinder, on the other hand, I'd definitely want to hire it for a day or two's test shoot.
I can see I might feel differently if I had a case full of Leica glass already. But even then I can't help thinking I'd be a lot more excited by a mirrorless EVF-driven Leica S.
Cheers, Hywel
-
I can't help thinking I'd be a lot more excited by a mirrorless EVF-driven Leica S.
Cheers, Hywel
Maybe we'll get that ... from Hasselblad or Pentax :)
Edmund
-
I don't think it is fair to call any of these cameras crap.
Yes, the Interwebs are already clogged with fanboy silliness. Let's try to be more real.
IMO the Sony A7x series is still a work in progress. The "2" versions are more pleasant to use than the originals and have some nice functional improvements too. The A7r2's image quality is very impressive, far beyond my needs to be frank. The system does need a broader stable of native lenses, and the way certain features are implemented is annoying. OTOH I can use nearly every 35mm format lens I own on it, though with caveats when it comes to many wider rangefinder optics. (If someone were to make a Zeiss Contaflex adapter—a tricky proposition for multiple reasons—I could use every lens.)
My interest level in the new SL is pretty low. No strong feeling either way. Still I hope it does well 'cuz I have a sentimental fondness for Leica…and IMO the more players in the camera market the better.
-Dave-
-
Yes, the Interwebs are already clogged with fanboy silliness. Let's try to be more real.
IMO the Sony A7x series is still a work in progress.
-Dave-
Ok, ok, I grovel and promise I will call it the Wondercam until I get one.
Edmund
-
You know, I think you're right. I'll call the A7RII the wondercam from now on, as everyone here seems to agree that Sony has done a nice job. Of note, the fact that the A72 sells at less than E2K in Europe, so the wondercam is also doing wonders for Sony's bottom line :)
As far as the Leica is concerned, I'll change my Luxocam labelling when the first forum buyers defend it wit firsthand knowledge ...
Edmund
No prejudice there at all, Edmund. ::)
-
Hi Dave,
I would agree on what you say about the A7x mark II versions. Personally I can live with any user interface if the image quality is great. I can set up the A7rII so it works for me.
Regarding Leica SL, it may be an excellent camera. It may be worth money for those who need or want it. Who would need a Leica SL? Perhaps someone shooting birds and having quite a few Leica R telefotos, just as an example. If the viewfinder works, response time is fast and high ISO performance is great it may just be the right camera for such a person. That person is not me :-)
Best regards
Erik
Yes, the Interwebs are already clogged with fanboy silliness. Let's try to be more real.
IMO the Sony A7x series is still a work in progress. The "2" versions are more pleasant to use than the originals and have some nice functional improvements too. The A7r2's image quality is very impressive, far beyond my needs to be frank. The system does need a broader stable of native lenses, and the way certain features are implemented is annoying. OTOH I can use nearly every 35mm format lens I own on it, though with caveats when it comes to many wider rangefinder optics. (If someone were to make a Zeiss Contaflex adapter—a tricky proposition for multiple reasons—I could use every lens.)
My interest level in the new SL is pretty low. No strong feeling either way. Still I hope it does well 'cuz I have a sentimental fondness for Leica…and IMO the more players in the camera market the better.
-Dave-
-
Most telling sentence from DPReview's hands-on:
"It took several DPR staffers to finally figure out how to change exposure modes."
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7448206943/a-lot-to-leica-hands-on-with-the-leica-sl-typ-601?slide=4
No, Leica. Seven thousand five hundred times no.
Why the 'no'? It's so easy.
Who cares that it's different, as long as it's quick and easy, which it is. DPR staffers want every new camera to be the same as every old camera, because they are constantly trying new cameras. Whereas an owner just wants one camera to work well.
I mean, we don't know how many DPR staffers it takes to change a light bulb.
-
I care that it is different. Even more so, I care that it is so unintuitive that a bunch of people who use lots of different cameras couldn't figure it out with the camera in hand.
Why? Because I use different cameras as the situation calls for it. I get stuff into muscle memory eventually, but for the first six months at least, I like to have these strange things called "labels" to tell me what to press if I have by chance forgotten how to do that particular thing on this particular camera.
When I've been shooting moving pictures for two weeks with a RED and a GH4, and I need to swap back to shooting stills this morning on a Hasselblad/Canon/Sony/whatever, I don't want the camera to hide the functions from me on unlabelled buttons. That confused DPR staffer will be me, especially for controls I use rarely, like.... well, like changing exposure mode actually. I usually shoot the whole day in Manual, but may head for Aperture priority at golden hour and forego the studio flash for the last hour of the shoot. So I actually change that setting only once or twice a day.
It's even worse if the unlabelled buttons have no tactile differentiation either. Position isn't enough for me to get stuff into muscle memory on a sensible timescale- I need the controls to have a certain feel, too.
For example, the Sony A7RII has two dials on the back at the top of the camera- one does shutter speed or program shift, one does exposure compensation. It is possible to get the wrong one, they are fairly close together, but they feel different, there's a knobbly bulge under the operating thumb for the EC dial whereas the bulge under the thumb for the shutter dial is smooth, and the shutter dial knurling is coarser than the EC dial so they feel different. Which means I can tell I've got my thumb on the wrong dial with the camera to my eye without having to twiddle it, notice it is doing something slightly different from what I expect by processing the math from the viewfinder, turning the dial back, and moving my thumb.
This for me is a good ergonomic feature of the A7RII.
An example of a bad one is the fact that the play and delete buttons are almost in the same place and feel pretty much identical- a pain if I want to queue up a review of the last shot in the EVF with the camera to my eye. Since I never, ever delete shots in the field, I've turned off the delete button (I might put something else there in due course once my muscle memory is much better attuned to the camera).
Although customisation is nice, it doesn't help when you haven't laid hands on the camera in a few weeks and can't remember where the hell the ISO button is on the damn thing.
Ideally I'd like smart buttons, each of which is a mini-screen and displays an icon for what it is currently set to. And I'd like each button and dial (or at least each one in reasonably close proximity on the camera) to have a tactile identifying feature- either a texture, or something next to it with a texture so you can tell which is which with your eyes closed.
But as I said higher in the thread, I'd also like a proper auto ETTR exposure mode- set the exposure such that no more than (user-settable) n% of pixels of any channel clip. And raw histograms in camera.
I'd also like someone to come up with a really well thought-out way to control focus points when you have 400 PDAF points and the camera has picked the wrong one- ideally with the camera to the eye. Touch screens and live view manual focus work just fine in my experience when shooting landscapes, but for my core fetish fashion activity I have to refocus quicker than that, adjusting to a fluid situation as the model poses. Bizarrely, for this use case the single central focus point/recompose and shoot method is the best I've found. It's actually a lot quicker to get the Hasselblad to refocus if it has chosen wrong than it is the A7RII; I ended up crippling my Canon's AF by setting central point AF only for these shoots because at least I *knew* then where I was focussing.
All large rear screens should fully articulate, be of iPhone retina quality and be touch screens, these days.
Menu systems should be designed by someone other than an infinite bunch of monkeys with typewriters (looking at you, Sony).
Zoom in on playback should give you actual 100% resolution (ideally from the RAW- if it has to shoot JPEG as well to achieve that, it should tell you in the damn manual). What do designers imagine we zoom in to 100% for? It is to check critical sharpness and focus, and for no other reason. So if the camera needs to generate a JPEG and render that when I zoom in to 100% on a RAW, it should do it as soon as I hit the zoom in button. I'll take a 0.3 second wait if that's what it takes to deliver me the visual info I need to properly assess the shot.
And many other gripes with the current state of camera ergonomics... none of which are specific to the SL, just illustrations of why I think there is a lot more to good camera UI design in the digital age than ANYONE has really explored yet. Not one digital camera really handles the way a top-flight film camera did. There's more variables, more data to show, more control options, it's a more complex beast altogether. Emulating film cameras is not the way to go, but nor in my opinion is unlabelled smooth control buttons, stacked menu systems, or pure touch screen control.
Cheers, Hywel
-
I care that it is different. Even more so, I care that it is so unintuitive that a bunch of people who use lots of different cameras couldn't figure it out with the camera in hand.
And many other gripes with the current state of camera ergonomics... none of which are specific to the SL, just illustrations of why I think there is a lot more to good camera UI design in the digital age than ANYONE has really explored yet. Not one digital camera really handles the way a top-flight film camera did. There's more variables, more data to show, more control options, it's a more complex beast altogether. Emulating film cameras is not the way to go, but nor in my opinion is unlabelled smooth control buttons, stacked menu systems, or pure touch screen control.
Cheers, Hywel
Cameras could be "skinned" like software. There is no excuse anymore for not offering a customisation SDK that lets programmers set up menus and button assignments for you, maybe some custom applets like Raw histogram, and sell them as a package.
I see NO REASON why the setup for football-tracking sports shooters with 6-pound handheld telephotos should be the same as that for an architectural photographer with a shift lens doing panos off a tripod.
Edmund
-
Cameras could be "skinned" like software. There is no excuse anymore for not offering a customisation SDK that lets programmers set up menus and button assignments for you, maybe some custom applets like Raw histogram, and sell them as a package.
I see NO REASON why the setup for football-tracking sports shooters with 6-pound handheld telephotos should be the same as that for an architectural photographer with a shift lens doing panos off a tripod.
Never understood why any software is not completely customisable, it will also get rid of so much negative feedback.
No design is suitable for all customers, no matter how well thought out
-
Never understood why any software is not completely customisable, it will also get rid of so much negative feedback.
No design is suitable for all customers, no matter how well thought out
Some current cameras are quite customizable. You just have to go through the 500 page manual and figure it out:) So if you are shooting football from the side-lines, or shooting landscapes, you should learn how to customize your camera ref. frame rates, AF types, etc.
-
Never understood why any software is not completely customisable, it will also get rid of so much negative feedback.
No design is suitable for all customers, no matter how well thought out
As someone who builds software (ok, web developer, but with as technical as the back-end work is, they are full fledge software pieces) all I can say is NO. Bad idea. Building an API to access the core abilities of the device (ala smartphones) is not a bad idea, but allowing users to alter that core software is a horrible idea.
So, the core software package should be locked down, but allowing people to build new UIs/apps and load them is a great idea. Didn't Sony allow you to create apps for some of their cameras? And I know there have been a few Android powered cameras on the market.
-
Some current cameras are quite customizable. You just have to go through the 500 page manual and figure it out:) So if you are shooting football from the side-lines, or shooting landscapes, you should learn how to customize your camera ref. frame rates, AF types, etc.
The minority of vendors doing the sensible thing does not negate the fact that it is the exception rather than the rule for software/hardware interfaces. Not doing so shows a sense of arrogance with the designers who think they know one way works best for everyone, despite their customers doing a huge variety of very different tasks
I have a E5II for when I don't want a big camera to lug around. Customised it quite thoroughly, without having read a huge manual. I simply sat down and went through the various options. Only had to check online as what a couple of abbreviations/symbols meant. It may be a faff, but once a camera or a software UI is sorted, you rarely need to bother with it again.
-
As someone who builds software (ok, web developer, but with as technical as the back-end work is, they are full fledge software pieces) all I can say is NO. Bad idea. Building an API to access the core abilities of the device (ala smartphones) is not a bad idea, but allowing users to alter that core software is a horrible idea.
So, the core software package should be locked down, but allowing people to build new UIs/apps and load them is a great idea. Didn't Sony allow you to create apps for some of their cameras? And I know there have been a few Android powered cameras on the market.
I hope you can parse code better than you can a simple paragraph in response to camera interfaces. I was talking about the design/UI, not altering the core software or underlying code.
-
I hope you can parse code better than you can a simple paragraph in response to camera interfaces. I was talking about the design/UI, not altering the core software or underlying code.
Your assumption is that those are two separate pieces, my assumption is that they are not. I would wager a bet, that it is 50/50 at best on the amount of cameras where either assumption is correct.
P.S. Really, a personal attack on me when all I said was an idea was bad...
-
It would be interesting to walk around with this thing and show it off. I wouldn't mind that at all. Take pictures too. Looks like fun.
-
Your assumption is that those are two separate pieces, my assumption is that they are not. I would wager a bet, that it is 50/50 at best on the amount of cameras where either assumption is correct.
Firstly coding where the UI and the functionality of software are linked code wise is not smart design. Secondly offering customization of interface is done by many people with no affect on how a programme works.
P.S. Really, a personal attack on me when all I said was an idea was bad...
So you can [inaccurately] claim my suggestion to be a very bad thing despite it having been done for decades, but I can't say you misread posts. Nice double standard.
-
Firstly coding where the UI and the functionality of software are linked code wise is not smart design. Secondly offering customization of interface is done by many people with no affect on how a programme works.
So you can [inaccurately] claim my suggestion to be a very bad thing despite it having been done for decades, but I can't say you misread posts. Nice double standard.
You could, hypothetically, create an SDK/compiler (which is what they all probably are working with anyways) or similar to allow completely customized software, but that would need to come with an "at your own risk" philosophy. From a customer service standpoint, allowing consumers to alter things like this at the core level, is a nightmare that can easily be avoided. Probably the reason you haven't seen more SDKs out there. This is essentially the firmware level, and has potential to do lots of harm in the wrong hands as you are working directly at the hardware/software interface level.
But, the better way is to have a middle tier software in there that can handle all of it while keeping core functionality protected and hidden. That way loading a bad UI/app won't do harm to the device and it's software/hardware interface. This leads to increased bloat in your software, requiring a higher hardware cost. This is more an option now (look how much power is in an iPhone) than it was 10 years ago, and may even be how more companies are doing it.
As for the double standard, a dig at my coding skills with a personal attack is not the same as pointing out a weakness in my argument. You could point out that I misunderstood your post with out making it a personal attack.
-
I posted the same comment on the Camera, lenses forum.
A Leica SL is not likely to be in my future – I am happy enough my my M9, which is getting a free replacement sensor, and my Canon 5D2. Still, I am interested in what that camera may be and, who knows, be in my future after all. I am looking forward to Michael's review of the camera when he gets hold of one. In the meantime, a review by Jono Slack, who has used a pre-production camera, can be found at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2015/10/leica-sl-test-jono/ No speculations, only a report on real use photography.
Jean-Michel
-
I find it quite entertaining seeing so many of you criticizing the price. The same people who spent even more on Canon 1Ds cameras.
-
I find it quite entertaining seeing so many of you criticizing the price. The same people who spent even more on Canon 1Ds cameras.
How do you know they are the same people? ;)
But I am one of them and I don't see these positions as being incompatible.
Indeed, I'll probably be buying a Nikon D5 but would not consider the SL for the following reasons:
- I own a large array of lenses that I will be able to mount on the D5. The equivalent lenses are not available today on the SL and some will probably never be (fast super tele),
- I shoot a large majority of images in portrait orientation when I use my 400mm f2.8 and like the ergonomics of pro full size DSLRs,
- I believe that the D5 will be much better at high ISO than the SL (I need excellent ISO 25,600 for some projects),
- I believe that the D5 will have a must faster AF in low light where I use super tele lenses most,
- I believe that the battery life will be significantly superior.
So the problem of the SL isn't its price, it is what it offers for that price relative to other existing or soon to become available options.
Cheers,
Bernard
-
I find it quite entertaining seeing so many of you criticizing the price. The same people who spent even more on Canon 1Ds cameras.
Yes, every generation of 1 series.
But cameras have gone up in talent and down in price since the last 1Ds and I wonder could even the mighty Canon or Nikon expect to get the same sort of money for the next models in the current climate ?
I also don't think the price of the Leica SL or the 24mp sensor is going to be as much of a sticking point as the lack of lenses available at launch.
-
I find it quite entertaining seeing so many of you criticizing the price. The same people who spent even more on Canon 1Ds cameras.
Nice you are entertained. At least with Canon and Nikon, the lenses are arguably good and don't cost an arm and a leg.
-
I find it quite entertaining seeing so many of you criticizing the price. The same people who spent even more on Canon 1Ds cameras.
Hehe. The problem is that the Leica does not seem to do substantially more than say a 5D3; In fact it does less since it needs a battery to make the VF work, and many of us spend hours behind the VF *not* taking the shot. And "allowing access to the Leica lens range" is not as if it *did* something, the A7R2 does that too, and so in fact does the $1K A7 and $2K A7II.
My Leica dealer is not enthusiastic, and neither am I. Leica is simply trying to sell the same mucho rico buyer 4 or 5 cameras, each of which will be left in the cupboard, while in the end the Dlux or MiniLux or whatever a Panasonic is called these days get all the use. And also, the local enthusiasts simply don't have the money anymore for this game.
Look at the Panasonic LX100 - now that is a cutie.
Edùund
-
... "allowing access to the Leica lens range" is not as if it *did* something, the A7R2 does that too, and so in fact does the $1K A7 and $2K A7II.
I don't see how to use a Leica S lens on any E-mount camera.
-
It will still take some time before hard core news, sports and documentary professionals switch to EVF system cameras. I admit I have started using Fujifilm X-T1 cameras for my assignments, because they are so small and light and unassuming compared to a pair of D4s. But I am not doing much hard news or sports anymore, still I keep the Nikons because I have practically all possible lenses and they get the shot when going gets tough. And 36 MPix is nice sometimes. EVF on those Fujis is good and fast. It is really not the resolution or refresh speeds/lag which is the problem, but that the viewfinder is not "perfect" in low light and that I can not see through the viewfinder until the darn contraption has turned on. It is just a second or two, but still… Also for this reason it just eats batteries (maybe couple of hundred shots, Nikon >1000). I suspect the new Leica does have the same inherent problems, and it does NOT have the advantage of being light and small like Sony and Fujifilm (which is APS-C, but good).
If the camera was called Exacta SL, introduced with one lens and costing maybe 2000 bucks, nobody would bat an eyelid. The read dot does have some magic in it. Even if it was capable of using old Leica manual focus lenses, what is modern in that? Others have a huge array of fast AF lenses already, Leica will never catch up with them.
-
If the camera was called Exacta SL, introduced with one lens and costing maybe 2000 bucks, nobody would bat an eyelid. The read dot does have some magic in it. Even if it was capable of using old Leica manual focus lenses, what is modern in that? Others have a huge array of fast AF lenses already, Leica will never catch up with them.
Given some of the features and construction, $2000 seems a little low, even from an off-brand. I think if it came out with another brand for $2500 to $3000, it still would be priced accurately. With the red dot, I would say $4000 to $5500 seems accurate for the body. Honestly, Leica should be selling their bodies at just a bit above the competition, and focusing on making the money from the optics.
My guess is though, the sales volume is so low on their bodies compared to Sony and the likes, that they need to add a lot more R&D cost and Production cost per body than everyone else.
On a side note, did you know Exacta means "a bet in which the first two places in a race must be predicted in the correct order"? Just found that interesting, and yes, I did have to look it up.
-
On a side note, did you know Exacta means "a bet in which the first two places in a race must be predicted in the correct order"? Just found that interesting, and yes, I did have to look it up.
For me Exacta means a SLR camera from the fifties. As a kid I could not afford to dream about Nikon, so I dreamed about an Exacta kit…
;D
-
Posted on fredmiranda.com by a visitor to PhotoPlus:
"The EVF is something very very special. I would say that without question, this is the best and fastest responding EVF that I have every seen. The color and fidelity and refresh rate of the EVF were excellent. Now at the show we did not have taxing lighting conditions, but much of the time I almost felt like I was looking through a good OVF possibly approaching that of my R8 which is saying something."
-
For me Exacta means a SLR camera from the fifties. As a kid I could not afford to dream about Nikon, so I dreamed about an Exacta kit…
;D
Then enjoy your parallel universe.
Those cameras were Exa and Exakta Varex; I had two of the latter, and damned good they were for the times...
;-)
Rob C
-
It will still take some time before hard core news, sports and documentary professionals switch to EVF system cameras.
I think this is a fundamental question, and at the core of the future for EVF cameras' potential in the pro applications.
I am convinced that if they wanted, Canon and Nikon would have produced EVF cameras for the pros already; but the acceptance of EVF cameras by pros will probably be slow. One other very important aspect is related to lenses: if Canon and Nikon introduce EVF cameras for pros, they better be sure that:
a. the existing lenses work in the new camera seamlessly and without loss of performance;
b. otherwise, if a new mount needs to be created, and pros need to replace their lenses, all hell will break loose, so to speak. And if the thing works via adapters, then point a above needs to be ensured.
-
The SL as a sports camera with a prototype 90-280 APO:
https://www.facebook.com/oliver.richter.509/posts/895510983863749
-
I think this is a fundamental question, and at the core of the future for EVF cameras' potential in the pro applications.
I am convinced that if they wanted, Canon and Nikon would have produced EVF cameras for the pros already; but the acceptance of EVF cameras by pros will probably be slow. One other very important aspect is related to lenses: if Canon and Nikon introduce EVF cameras for pros, they better be sure that:
a. the existing lenses work in the new camera seamlessly and without loss of performance;
b. otherwise, if a new mount needs to be created, and pros need to replace their lenses, all hell will break loose, so to speak. And if the thing works via adapters, then point a above needs to be ensured.
Call me dim, but what the hell is it about an EVF which would cause (a) to occur, let alone (b) to become necessary?
-
Call me dim, but what the hell is it about an EVF which would cause (a) to occur, let alone (b) to become necessary?
I think he is equating EVF to the loss of the mirrorbox, thus a shorter mount to sensor distance. While this doesn't have to be the case (didn't Pentax or someone make a mirrorless with the same distance?), it seems that it is a trend that will continue, and logically so.
-
. . . if Canon and Nikon introduce EVF cameras for pros, they better be sure that:
a. the existing lenses work in the new camera seamlessly and without loss of performance;
b. otherwise, if a new mount needs to be created, and pros need to replace their lenses, all hell will break loose, so to speak. And if the thing works via adapters, then point a above needs to be ensured.
These are good points, but this question is fair too:
Call me dim, but what the hell is it about an EVF which would cause (a) to occur, let alone (b) to become necessary?
The main concern with (a) is that with some mirrorless cameras, their contrast-detect AF system does not work well with lenses designed for phase-detect AF. The issue seems to be that CDAF often requires several rapid changes of direction (""hunting"), so that lenses with heavy, strong ring-style AF motors, excellent at adjusting focus with a single fast movement in one direction, are sluggish with CDAF. (I experience this with Four Thirds SLR lenses adaptor-mounted to a Micro Four Thirds EM5 body.) Thus, CDAF-friendly lenses use linear stepper motors instead.
So long as that is so, getting decent AF with an "EVF camera" does require new lenses as in (b). However, the good news is that more recent advances in on-sensor PDAF, refinements of CDAF, and Panasonic's "depth by defocus" are closing that gap, and both Canon and Nikon are already working on some of this. Canon is even doing innovative things with on-sensor AF in some SLR's, for the sake of their live view and video modes.
Aside: As others have said, it might be that progress in digital still photography will more and more be driven by "trickle down" from video, so tilting the playing field towards EVF cameras.
P. S. I was pleased to see Sean Reid in his Leica SL review here (https://luminous-landscape.com/some-thoughts-on-the-leica-sl/) try to move away from the negative term "mirrorless" toward a more positive naming based in the presence of an EVF, just a day or two after I tried the same thing! But I doubt that his EFC = Electronic Finder Camera will catch on.
-
In the end news/sports etc pros will start buying and getting EVF cameras when they are good enough. No sooner, no matter how much people who do not really know enough the realities in the field praise the advantages of EVF over the good old mirror box. I use both EVF and DSLR systems professionally, and if I had to choose between them I would still choose DSLR, because 95% of the assignments can be handled with those, 80% with EVF cameras. I do not believe Leica SL changes the situation, even if it had a decent set of lenses.
-
If the ability to do video clips is part of the requirement for pro sports reportage (and it is!), the EVF technology is far superior.
-
P. S. I was pleased to see Sean Reid in his Leica SL review here (https://luminous-landscape.com/some-thoughts-on-the-leica-sl/) try to move away from the negative term "mirrorless" toward a more positive naming based in the presence of an EVF, just a day or two after I tried the same thing! But I doubt that his EFC = Electronic Finder Camera will catch on.
EFC has already been used: Electronic First Curtain. Perhaps this could be re-named E1C.
-
P. S. I was pleased to see Sean Reid in his Leica SL review here (https://luminous-landscape.com/some-thoughts-on-the-leica-sl/) try to move away from the negative term "mirrorless" toward a more positive naming based in the presence of an EVF, just a day or two after I tried the same thing! But I doubt that his EFC = Electronic Finder Camera will catch on.
Why is it a negative term? Most cameras of a similar form/function have used mirrors, so by stating there is no mirror, it is easily understood what they are. It's a relative term, not a negative one.
Making up very clunky names like Electronic Finder Camera, years after a simple word has already become commonplace for such cameras is a bit foolish. Particular when there already exists a common phrase/acronym for such ways of viewing, i.e. EVF.
EFC has already been used: Electronic First Curtain. Perhaps this could be re-named E1C.
Like this will ever happen.
-
Why is it a negative term? Most cameras of a similar form/function have used mirrors, so by stating there is no mirror, it is easily understood what they are. It's a relative term, not a negative one.
Like topless.
-
Perhaps semantics but I don't think the SL fits in this forum since it is titled Compact Systems Camera..... ;)
-
Why is it a negative term? Most cameras of a similar form/function have used mirrors, so by stating there is no mirror, it is easily understood what they are. It's a relative term, not a negative one.
Making up very clunky names like Electronic Finder Camera, years after a simple word has already become commonplace for such cameras is a bit foolish. Particular when there already exists a common phrase/acronym for such ways of viewing, i.e. EVF.
I agree that "mirrorless" is not negative in the sense of being disparaging, just as "wireless networking" is fine. But I am going to quixotically allude to the virtues of having an EVF, with wording like "EVF camera". I doubt that will catch on either, but people should understand what I mean.
-
Perhaps semantics but I don't think the SL fits in this forum since it is titled Compact Systems Camera..... ;)
Actually, despite the mischievous use of a very small model at DPReview, the SL body is not so bulky, and is lighter than almost every 35mm format DSLR. It is the 24-90/28-4 lens that fails to be compact!
-
'Mirrorless' is a positive in the same sense as 'horseless carriage': it is clear what a piece of unnecessary baggage you are getting rid of.
Even 'compact' is a negative term in an American market that still buys more new F150 'cars' than Corollas.
In evolutionary terms, I am kind of glad that the SL is not particularly compact or cheap, because it helps the new camera form to get over the hump of being seen as only a size or money saver. The SL is saying "I'm going to be so great to look through and so super responsive that you will realize that this actually a better way to do cameras". A kind of myth-buster.