Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: JV on September 23, 2015, 09:13:52 pm
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Hmmm, what to think of this...?
http://www.camera-rumors.com/leica-sl-typ-601-to-be-announced-soon/
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Maybe Leica's ties with Panasonic are kicking in. I've got a Lumix GX7 with two Lumix-Leica lenses. I'm having fun for a fraction of the cost. I'm only posting online these days so a Leica would be a waste of money, however it is good to see them getting into the 21st Century.
Cheers,
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Makes sense. After all, the Leica Q is already FF, albeit with a fixed lens. But it is AF and has IS, so they have bridged that gap already.
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An ILC version of the Leica Q, even with one killer lens, would be immensely popular IMO...
But to a large extent it would also cut into M sales, not sure whether Leica is ready to do that just yet...
Also curious whether they will use the T-mount...
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Below are rumored specifications of Leica SL (Typ 601):
Full Frame Sensor
Auto Focus in Camera
New AF lens Lineup
High ISO performance, probably the best in the industry , better than Sony a7S ?
To be released before Christmas 2015
It would be remarkable if they can do that- i do not think so...
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Below are rumored specifications of Leica SL (Typ 601):
Full Frame Sensor
Auto Focus in Camera
New AF lens Lineup
High ISO performance, probably the best in the industry , better than Sony a7S ?
To be released before Christmas 2015
It would be remarkable if they can do that- i do not think so...
Maybe they could manage best in industry if they use the A7S chip and make a better job of it than Sony? That might not be impossible as people say that Nikon do better with Sony chips than Sony themselves. If Sony would sell Leica the chip.
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See also:
http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/high-credibility-rumor-the-new-leica-mirrorless-non-rangefinder-camera-could-be-named-leica-sl/
U$ 8000 expected price tag... :o
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The three lenses to be announced together with Leica SL:
- Leica Vario-Elmarit-SL 1:2.8-4 / 24-90mm ASPH.
- Leica Apo-Vario-Elmarit-SL 1:2.8-4 / 90-280mm
- Leica Summilux-SL 1:1.4 / 50mm ASPH.
Source: Digital Camera Info http://digicame-info.com/2015/09/sl3.html
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I'm surprised by the lens choices, I'd have thought they'd go for a set of three wide aperture primes.
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The three lenses to be announced together with Leica SL:
- Leica Vario-Elmarit-SL 1:2.8-4 / 24-90mm ASPH.
- Leica Apo-Vario-Elmarit-SL 1:2.8-4 / 90-280mm
- Leica Summilux-SL 1:1.4 / 50mm ASPH.
Source: Digital Camera Info http://digicame-info.com/2015/09/sl3.html
Thanks for posting this. The zoom lenses overlap almost completely with the Leica T, only they are FF and faster...
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I'm surprised by the lens choices, I'd have thought they'd go for a set of three wide aperture primes.
I guess that if you want primes, there is the S system?
My bet would be that they are targeting, among other users, the wedding pro segment here and the convenience of zooms is hard to beat.
I will be interesting to see how well it performs compared to a D750 with the new 24-70mm f2.8 VR.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I guess that if want primes, there is the S system?
My bet would be that they are targeting, among other users, the wedding pro segment here and the convenience of zooms is hard to beat.
I will be interesting to see how well it performs compared to a D750 with the new 24-70mm f2.8 VR.
Cheers,
Bernard
Plus the desire to not overlap too much with the M just yet...
Now existing Leica M users are encouraged to buy another body and a few zoom lenses to be more versatile and with the use of the proper adapters I am sure that they will also be able to continue to use their M lenses...
One wonders though why they did not just make an ILC version of the Leica Q...
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One wonders though why they did not just make an ILC version of the Leica Q...
Isn't it exactly what it is?
Cheers,
Bernard
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"Leica Vario-Elmarit-SL 1:2.8-4 / 24-90mm ASPH.
Leica Apo-Vario-Elmarit-SL 1:2.8-4 / 90-280mm"
I'm thinking image stabilisation, where is it?
Leica is in close collaboration with Panasonic, a 90-280mm without stabilisation at Leica prices, it does't make sense.
Cheers,
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Must be more than a rumor - several photographers who ought to know have been dropping major hints without letting the cat out of the bag.
As to IS, It could be incorporated in the body.
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Plus the desire to not overlap too much with the M just yet...
Now existing Leica M users are encouraged to buy another body and a few zoom lenses to be more versatile and with the use of the proper adapters I am sure that they will also be able to continue to use their M lenses...
One wonders though why they did not just make an ILC version of the Leica Q...
Ah, yes, seems likely.
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I see little threat to the M series/system if the reports are true. (Would this be vapour-ware?) Why not? I think they appeal to two different mindsets.
If the reports are true, I think that Leica has made a mistake. What's missing is a real standard FF R system, not a contemporary botch-up. There are plenty of people around whose minds are conditioned to work very well within the 135 format, whose understanding of lens/effect and ability to see DOF at different apertures (yes, you can, regardless of the naysayers who claim it impossible; they just don't do it enough to acquire the feel) is totally instinctive due to years of familiarity. Once, not long after I had my first heart attack, I got into a conversation with my wife about her options should I die. When asked if she'd care to remarry, with my full blessing, should she want to, she looked at me in disbelief. She told me she felt horror at the thought of having to adapt to another person sharing her intimate life. I see the clear parallel with photography and familiarity with systems.
I never bought into the Leica system when I could afford it (working), and because I wanted to do so. Why? The M system didn't include enough frame accuracy for my requirements (and neither any indication of DOF, vital to me) and the R system didn't show full field coverage either: not full-frame view in the prism. This may sound trivial to some, but when your work incorporated using the entire 135 format and expecting to blow up to 40" x 60" displays for fashion stands and, more demanding yet, large calendars in colour, the latter viewed quite close up, filling the space Barnack gave you meant a lot.
For anyone starting from scratch or able to move painlessly from one system to another, a real but contemporary R would have my vote.
Rob C
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For anyone starting from scratch or able to move painlessly from one system to another, a real but contemporary R would have my vote.
I fail to understand how this would be preferable to a full-frame mirrorless camera that can use lenses from multiple systems. Having a long mount register, the R system is among the least adaptable to other lenses. If you want painless migration to another system you want to be able to use your existing lenses. R isn't it.
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I'm surprised by the lens choices, I'd have thought they'd go for a set of three wide aperture primes.
I am sure you will be able to use the M lenses with an adapter. Plenty of choice in FF. :)
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I fail to understand how this would be preferable to a full-frame mirrorless camera that can use lenses from multiple systems. Having a long mount register, the R system is among the least adaptable to other lenses. If you want painless migration to another system you want to be able to use your existing lenses. R isn't it.
But I didn't ask for that.
And if I was buying into a new R system, why would I want other types of lenses? I didn't buy anything but Nikkors ever since the F came into my life; were I into Leica R, imaginary new or established old, I'd be of the same faithful disposition.
As I wrote, I never personally owned Leica of any type, but as an assistant at one stage, I did print from one or the other of the 21mm lenses in black/white, and there was a quality there that I never got from anything else. It was not imaginary. In fact, perhaps a bit naughty, but I kept a print from that M3/21mm combo in my portfolio as an example of my printing ability. Many decry the difference between Leica optics and others; having printed from some of them I know the differences are real. I have had them happen to me, with no horse to back in any personal race. Just was. I also, years later, had a client request Cibas from another photographer's Leica shoot. The colour, in this instance, was wonderful too.
There's a funny story related to this concerning Stan Malinowski: he used all sorts of cameras trying to catch the colours on Kodachrome that he saw in the work of Francis Giacobetti. He assumed that they were Leitz optics and so he bought. Then, working for an art director who knew both photographers, he was told that no, Giacobetti used Zeiss... however, I think that was either a diplomatic fib or that the latter changed equipment, for a while later I saw his work in French PHOTO and he was using Leica 180mm...
The story comes from my memory of Stan's website, which I can no longer open despite finding several links to it in Google. He used to use it under the name modelpix, which still appears under his actual name in Google. Wonders of the new world.
Rob C
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But I didn't ask for that.
Really?
For anyone starting from scratch or able to move painlessly from one system to another, a real but contemporary R would have my vote.
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The three lenses to be announced together with Leica SL:
- Leica Vario-Elmarit-SL 1:2.8-4 / 24-90mm ASPH.
- Leica Apo-Vario-Elmarit-SL 1:2.8-4 / 90-280mm
- Leica Summilux-SL 1:1.4 / 50mm ASPH.
Source: Digital Camera Info http://digicame-info.com/2015/09/sl3.html
If true, these initial choices sound eminently pragmatic, leaving "all prime purism" to the M system, where it belongs.
I particularly like the ”moderately fast but variable" aperture approach of zooms, like f/2.8-4 or f/2.8-3.5; as far as I can tell, such a lens need be no bulkier or more expensive than a constant f/4, so why not use more of the light that the front element captures when away from the long end? The traditional prestige of constant minimum f-stop zoom lens designs seems based on now-irrelevant considerations with purely mechanical aperture controls, which caused the f-stop to rise higher than the setting on the lens as one zoomed in with those older variable minimum f-stop designs.
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I like the extra length of the 24–90mm compared to the now-standard 24–70mm (or equiv). I often end up cropping long-end pics taken with the latter due to the lack of that extra bit of reach. Must have a ~22° diag FOV burned into my optic nerve. :)
-Dave-
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Really?
Yep really. What I am writing there is about those able to move painlessly: i.e. money doesn't matter, you simply trade one marque for the new one of choice.
However, I grant you that your interpretation could be an honest one of what I had written.
Rob C
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If true, these initial choices sound eminently pragmatic, leaving "all prime purism" to the M system, where it belongs.
Why on Earth should an all prime set be the preserve of the M System?
It just seems a great reason for people to say "I came, I saw zooms and I bought a Sony A7 series camera and three primes instead."
Even my GX7 comes with a nice selection of fast primes.
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Why on Earth should an all prime set be the preserve of the M System?
initial... were you expecting them to announce more than 3 lenses right away ? they announced one prime, they certainly will release more if the system lives.
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initial... were you expecting them to announce more than 3 lenses right away ? they announced one prime, they certainly will release more if the system lives.
As something been announced or is it still just a rumor?
Cheers,
Bernard
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As something been announced or is it still just a rumor?
this assumption is as good as assumption that there will be no more primes released in addition to "Leica Summilux-SL 1:1.4 / 50mm ASPH" ... if Leica is not selling something cheap why 'd they not release and sell more Leica AF primes ? unless you assume that Leica SL will be a lot cheaper tha Leica M
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this assumption is as good as assumption that there will be no more primes released in addition to "Leica Summilux-SL 1:1.4 / 50mm ASPH" ... if Leica is not selling something cheap why 'd they not release and sell more Leica AF primes ? unless you assume that Leica SL will be a lot cheaper tha Leica M
Sure, I totally agree.
But even without going there, I was questioning the claim that we know for a fact what they will release as initial lenses line up.
Cheers,
Bernard
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The whole shebang is vaporware at this point. Let's just wait & see what Leica actually does…or does not. :)
-Dave-
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wait & see
not our motto !
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Some observations and history:
http://overgaard.dk/Leica-Camera-Typ-601.html
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The whole shebang is vaporware at this point. Let's just wait & see what Leica actually does…or does not. :)
Time for another debate about correct or incorrect use of pejorative terms?! For now, it's just a rumor, which is the opposite of vaporware (as is "a concrete announcement of an imminent product release made when in fact there is no product anywhere close to fully developed"). We all get to give Leica our wisdom about if and how this for now imaginary product line should be developed.
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Yes, vaporware is the wrong term.
-Dave-
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Yes, vaporware is the wrong term.
-Dave-
Just hot air then.
I think we've sucked this topic dry.
Edmund
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Why on Earth should an all prime set be the preserve of the M System?
To which I am tempted to reply "Why on earth should any new camera system be completely devoid of zoom lenses?" The only good reason I can see for a primes-only system is that it uses a true optical rangefinder viewfinder system; a mechanism that is inherently ill-suited to zoom lenses. Any system with a "through the lens" viewfinder can handle zoom lenses, and so will benefit from offering at least the dominant type of zoom lens, starting with a "wide to short telephoto" and a matching moderate telephoto.
(Straw-man/misunderstanding alert: I am saying nothing against developing a good array of primes as well as having at least the dominant zoom lens types, as for example with the Fujifilm X system.
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If this rumour proves to be correct, it will be interesting to see how this new system will fair against Sony A7, which for now is the only FF MILC system. I know that Leica lives in a separate world, but once they step out of the RF system, they will be the subject of comparison against similar systems.
After all, even Leica aficionados will think it over, when deciding between the new system and a Sony. And even the lenses bit will not stick, as one can use Leica M mount, or Zeiss glass, on the A7.
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To which I am tempted to reply "Why on earth should any new camera system be completely devoid of zoom lenses?"
Zoom lenses are perfectly fine although personally I associate Leica with wide to normal primes and I suspect that some potential buyers would prefer to see a camera launched with a basic prime line up.
I'm sure zooms are lovely but IMO a camera and three fastish primes would be so much sexier. Zoom lenses could come along later.
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initial... were you expecting them to announce more than 3 lenses right away ? they announced one prime, they certainly will release more if the system lives.
I wssn't expecting any number of lenses but I didn't expect a prime and two zooms. Rather boring IMO :D and I suspect that some buyers will be rather disappointed. I may be wrong but it's a personal view and my view is... yawn.
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Off on a tangent…
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Cheers,
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Zoom lenses are perfectly fine although personally I associate Leica with wide to normal primes and I suspect that some potential buyers would prefer to see a camera launched with a basic prime line up.
I'm sure zooms are lovely but IMO a camera and three fastish primes would be so much sexier. Zoom lenses could come along later.
Fair enough: boring to you, and I also think that adding one or two more primes ASAP would be nice – and even Leica's previous SLR systems (R and then S) started with mostly or entirely prime lenses and then added a few zooms later.
But the rumor fits with Leica is trying to be relevant to the current market for a high quality yet mobile camera system, rather than either the marketplace of years past, or targeting primarily the old guard of long-time Leica users whose priorities and tastes reflect Leica's previous products. For a lot of us, the original core Leica value of highly portable agile system is still very relevant, and now that zoom lenses can be very good, they can help a lot with that.
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I was quite puzzled when I heard that the Q would have a 28mm lens. For me Leica was 90% a camera made for the 35mm lens. If the rumors are right not issueing the new camera with a good 36 cron or lux lens feels wrong
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I was quite puzzled when I heard that the Q would have a 28mm lens. For me Leica was 90% a camera made for the 35mm lens. If the rumors are right not issueing the new camera with a good 36 cron or lux lens feels wrong
They're now talking of $10K with one lens.
E
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They're now talking of $10K with one lens.
E
The word for Europe is Euro 12,000 with the 24-90 lens... I think that even for Leica, this is overpriced... for much less one can get the Sony A7xx with a 35 f1.4, 55 f1.8, or Batis, all nice Zeiss glass... after all, it will be a FF MILC with EVF and some lenses, right?
Perhaps it is of similar ilk as the T, polished from a single block of unobtainium:)
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The word for Europe is Euro 12,000 with the 24-90 lens... I think that even for Leica, this is overpriced... for much less one can get the Sony A7xx with a 35 f1.4, 55 f1.8, or Batis, all nice Zeiss glass... after all, it will be a FF MILC with EVF and some lenses, right?
Perhaps it is of similar ilk as the T, polished from a single block of unobtainium:)
I have found that the DMR's files can handle a lot more abuse than the a7II's files. I'd like to see how robust the SL's files are before making any judgement about the camera's value.
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The word for Europe is Euro 12,000 with the 24-90 lens... I think that even for Leica, this is overpriced... for much less one can get the Sony A7xx with a 35 f1.4, 55 f1.8, or Batis, all nice Zeiss glass... after all, it will be a FF MILC with EVF and some lenses, right?
Perhaps it is of similar ilk as the T, polished from a single block of unobtainium:)
All rumors up till now obviously... but personally for the body and the 24-90mm zoom lens I wouldn't expect anything cheaper than $8-10K...
I don't believe Leica is going to release a body that is cheaper than the M (which is $7K) and the Leica T 18-56 zoom lens (27-84 eq) is already $1,750 (without current US savings)...
Releasing only the 24-90 initially (as some rumors say) would IMO not be a good idea... you need at least one fast and very good prime...
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I have found that the DMR's files can handle a lot more abuse than the a7II's files. I'd like to see how robust the SL's files are before making any judgement about the camera's value.
Arguably Sony has hit a sweet spot with the new A7RMKII, and the glass (Sony G, Sony Zeiss, or Zeiss) is top quality too. In the past, one could argue that Leica RF were overpriced, but there were no viable options really. Now, with the Leica T, and the new FF SL, there are very viable alternatives.
Honestly, I see very few people shelling out Euro 12,000 for a kit of camera plus zoom lens, when you can have for all intents the same IQ with Sony A7 system.
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Honestly, I see very few people shelling out Euro 12,000 for a kit of camera plus zoom lens, when you can have for all intents the same IQ with Sony A7 system.
I am a bit curious to see what it will do better than a 5Ds/D810 and 24-70mm f2.8 VR costing 1/3 the price... ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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I am a bit curious to see what it will do better than a 5Ds/D810 and 24-70mm f2.8 VR costing 1/3 the price... ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
Maybe the Leica + zoom are 1/3 lighter than the Nikon + zoom thus justifying the higher price!
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I am a bit curious to see what it will do better than a 5Ds/D810 and 24-70mm f2.8 VR costing 1/3 the price... ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
Even so within Leica, IQ-wise the Leica T with the Vario-Elmar-T 18-56mm f/3.5-5.6 ASPH lens (27-84mm eq) is not a bad combination...
It also remains to be seen how good the high ISO truly is and whether it is really better than the competition...
I bought a Sony A7s last year but sold it, held on to the lenses till it was announced that the A7sII was 12 MP again. If Leica can couple best high ISO with 24MP they might have a win...
It remains to be seen if the new offering from Leica is unique or superior in quality to the competition. If it's not then the rumoured pricing would be very difficult to justify.
Time will tell.
+1.
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The prices seem to get confirmed. From La Vida Leica!:
We have word that some Leica store managers will be flown to Germany ahead of the official launch in nine weeks (mid-December). Pricing will be kept "as close to the Leica M (Type 240) as possible" on the body, which is currently just shy of $6,400 USD - making the lenses around $3-4K USD each. Our earlier report of $10,000 USD (with the 24-90mm zoom) appears to be on-target. We're also told that Panasonic had a significant contribution in implementing the electronics of the camera.
Pretty much what I personally expected...