Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: bokehcambodia on September 20, 2015, 03:56:45 am
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One wonders why there has not been any effort so far by one of the mayor players to release a B&W digital camera that would offer better dynamic range, noise performance and overall image quality compared to converting current color images to B&W? Yes, there are two options, either a Phase One back or Leica M (Monochrome), both of with are out of reach for the vast majority of photographers.
Will Sony release an A7M (Monochrome) ILC being the leader in sensor manufacturing? Sony surely could pull this one off and provide a dedicated B&W camera in the range of $1500-$2500.
But till then what to buy to convert color to BW images? I assume great dynamic range and the ability to pull shadow detail are worth having when converting?
What to buy in the range up to $1000 and what up to $2000? Personally i see the Sony RX100 IV a viable option (great to pull shadow detail) in the lower price tier.
Looking forward to reading your comments. (I cross-posted it in the B&W section but i assume more 'gear heads' here)
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Why should manufacturers produce this specialist tool?
Leica already owns the dedicated b/w shooter of means; I don't for a moment imagine there's a crowd, several million deep, of anxious b/w shooters anywhere just praying for a plethora of dedicated b/w cameras. For pretty much everyone, conventional conversion gives all that is sanely required. Manufacturing is about making money. Period.
If you can't live without the true b/white experience, just start buying film again. If you never did, then you have no idea of what the b/w experience really is, and the argument becomes absurd, as does all this crap about DR etc. et bloody cetera. Look at much of good back/white photography and you will discover that it has always led the way in creativity, which means that it constantly breaks the rules because it's only by doing so that something different happens. Because of that, you'll discover that many of the b/w greats never deployed a perfect range of tones from max black to whitest white: they played around with deep shadow, blown highlights and so on.
If you want to invoke St Ansel here, do so at your peril: a superlative craftsman, I would hesitate to think of him as ever being visually exciting.
Rob C
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Why should manufacturers produce this specialist tool?
Leica already owns the dedicated b/w shooter of means; I don't for a moment imagine there's a crowd, several million deep, of anxious b/w shooters anywhere just praying for a plethora of dedicated b/w cameras. For pretty much everyone, conventional conversion gives all that is sanely required. Manufacturing is about making money. Period.
If you can't live without the true b/white experience, just start buying film again. If you never did, then you have no idea of what the b/w experience really is, and the argument becomes absurd, as does all this crap about DR etc. et bloody cetera. Look at much of good back/white photography and you will discover that it has always led the way in creativity, which means that it constantly breaks the rules because it's only by doing so that something different happens. Because of that, you'll discover that many of the b/w greats never deployed a perfect range of tones from max black to whitest white: they played around with deep shadow, blown highlights and so on.
If you want to invoke St Ansel here, do so at your peril: a superlative craftsman, I would hesitate to think of him as ever being visually exciting.
Rob C
Wow..it was only a question!
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Hello Rob,
first thanks for replying to my post although i feel you are overly critical to my post. There are many 'gear heads' out there and i am seemingly also one of these.
Obviously i understand the limited market appeal, but in 2015 digital cameras are more and more focusing on niches and not the camera that does it all.
Sony had the guts to produce the RX1 why not a RX1 M? Sigma produces the Quattro line and i am sure they are not the hottest camera around.
I personally did shoot and develop BW a while back, so i know what it's about (at least a bit imho) and i personally know a Magnum BW shooter that does convert from color to BW (though he surely would replace his current camera with one that had a BW sensor. He did not buy the Leica M after having many issues with Leica digital before and the M is priced very steeply even for pros).
It's about the craft, the image, not DR, but gear that helps with creating what you envision is surely of help. Some mind about technical excellence, some not. It's art, you're free to do what you want.
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I was looking for practical advise/reports from BW digital shooters that do NOT use the Leica M.
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Wow..it was only a question!
It was only a reply.
Rob C
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I was looking for practical advise/reports from BW digital shooters that do NOT use the Leica M.
Exactly, and in another of your posts above you acknowledge the issues.
Having done that, don't you think you've also answered your own basic question? If my response sounded critical of you on a personal lever it wasn't meant to be: I don't feel I know enough about you to form any sort of opinion. My response was aimed at what I see as the commercial viability of producing a camera with very limited appeal. However, I'm very often mistaken, and a new something may well be announced and reviewed here quite soon!
Rob C
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Rob,
as i said i appreciate your answers and your point of view. Friendly discussion only.
And yes 'current' market offerings means conversion from color to BW if you don't have the means for a M.
Exactly, and in another of your posts above you acknowledge the issues.
Having done that, don't you think you've also answered your own basic question? If my response sounded critical of you on a personal lever it wasn't meant to be: I don't feel I know enough about you to form any sort of opinion. My response was aimed at what I see as the commercial viability of producing a camera with very limited appeal. However, I'm very often mistaken, and a new something may well be announced and reviewed here quite soon!
Rob C
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Rob,
as i said i appreciate your answers and your point of view. Friendly discussion only.
And yes 'current' market offerings means conversion from color to BW if you don't have the means for a M.
Hi,
IMHO, a monochrome sensor doesn't add to the technical quality of a B&W output, it only limits the possibilities. And by limiting the technical quality, it also somewhat limits the 'creative quality'.
Shooting for B&W output also means that one is required to filter the incoming light to improve tonal separation based on color differences. That is extremely hard to achieve when shooting, so one has to rely on gut feeling and experience. On the other hand, shooting in Color and then in postprocessing having the possibility to tweak the color sensitivity with luminance enhancements is vastly superior.
It also add a new level of creativity during post-processing, as one can actually see the gradually image gaining in strength where needed, locally. The sensation is a bit like traditional darkroom processing with local acceleration of the development process by raising the temperature of some spots with your fingers in the developer bath.
I like the level of control that Topaz B/W effects gives, but I've heard that Google Silver Efex Pro 2 also is very good.
The only benefit of a monochrome sensor is a marginally (approx. 6% at most) higher resolution (with apochromatic lenses(!)), but that is dwarfed by the negative aspects (price, and especially loss of control).
Cheers,
Bart
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Cheers Bart,
that's very helpful insights!
Using the B&W Mix sliders in LR (what i currently use and as you said provides a nice see-what-you-get approach) the freedom to achieve a look/tonal separation is simple, instead the use of color filers on BW cameras a steep learning curve.
I was not aware that only apochromatic lenses would help for IQ improvements.
With this approach (color to BW) i see a polariser very helpful most of the time.
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As, in the end, we all seem to agree, here's something for those who enjoy trains:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAnKqdlPWDo
;-)
Rob C
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I have some nice Ilford and Trix X profiles, but I expect a donation. People who are interested can PM me.
The advantage of the profiles is they are one-click in Photoshop (or Preview, I guess).
Edmund
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Despite its issues with color work X-Trans does quite well for b&w, no real complaints. You can find various combinations for those price limits.
Camera wise quality it's a wash and it's mostly a handling/extras difference. Lenses vary from good to great.
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I was not aware that only apochromatic lenses would help for IQ improvements.
With monochromatic sensors, the Chromatic Aberrations (both longitudinal and lateral) are baked into the Luminance signal. With a color recording, one can (partially) restore the original signal by realigning or defringing the signal.
Cheers,
Bart
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Just get an A7r II and convert the images to b&w and get results at least as good as the M246, according to Diglloyd.
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I can't imagine the market for a b&w only camera is big enough for canon/sony/nikon to bother with given it would need an entirely new sensor unlike say, the 'A' version of the D810. Even a lot of die hard b&w photographers would prefer the flexibility of having colour information to tweak the b&w tones and I wonder if they are also more malleable in post due to the information captured over than a file from a monochome sensor taken with an orange or red filter.
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You can always go back to film, develop and scan the negatives. I find no real issues with the various digital conversion tools and I still do a lot of B/W work.
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I've shot b&w film for decades and enjoy the whole process, including using filters. But I doubt there are enough me-type people ;) out there to justify niche products from mass market electronic camera makers. A pity because taking pics with b&w as the only possible outcome (not counting split-toning & such) makes you see different.
-Dave-
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It seems you already aware of Sigma cameras. Their Merrill series use three layers each capturing certain color data, all at the same pixel level. You can think of these cameras as monochrome cameras, even working on exporting one layer for a true monochrome capture. All the Merrill DP series cameras are well under your budget, and would I think be cameras to consider for your particular application.
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It seems you already aware of Sigma cameras. Their Merrill series use three layers each capturing certain color data, all at the same pixel level. You can think of these cameras as monochrome cameras, even working on exporting one layer for a true monochrome capture. All the Merrill DP series cameras are well under your budget, and would I think be cameras to consider for your particular application.
I was just going to chime in that the Sigma DP Merrill cameras are VERY good monochrome machines - assuming of course that you can put up with their glacial operational pace.
Rand
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If you aren't shooting high-frame rate, large buffer B and W, or at ISO 3200 or above, Sigma Merrills are splendid.
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I really enjoy the B&W results I attain from my old D800e. There's something special about them, whether it's just the dynamic range or the color response or a combination of factors, I don't know. But converting to B&W with either Google/Nik software or OnOne Perfect Effects software gives me terrific results that I (and others - even my wife) can distinguish from other cameras I own, particularly my Canon 5D2 and 5D3. I also use a D810 and Sony A7II and A7R2 but I really haven't pitted the D800e against them yet when it comes to B&W. Even if they're as capable as (or better than) the D800e for B&W, a low priced, used D800e would rock as a dedicated B&W cam if one already has appropriate lenses.
As for the Sigma Merrills and B&W, I rented a DP2 with which to play and agree that it produces very, very nice B&W images. A friend here in Juneau who is a full time award winning pro photog and Nikon devotee keeps a DP2 around just for B&W work.
Cheers!
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I consider my D800 pretty meh in terms of color output, but it does make a wonderful B&W camera. The tonality is quite creamy and Silver Effex Pro, followed by tweaks in PS gives me images I am very happy with.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5636/21415218820_8c99129e97_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/567/21577203676_e91bf4c867_b.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3908/15150589039_940357a1f7_b.jpg)
I echo the sentiments of some folks above. I personally see no need for a monochrome camera, when oen has so many more creative options in post with a color camera. The retro cool of a Leica Monochrome makes for a great hipster accessory, but you're basically boxing yourself into a corner with a lot less creative options with a tool like that.
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One wonders why there has not been any effort so far by one of the mayor players to release a B&W digital camera that would offer better dynamic range, noise performance and overall image quality compared to converting current color images to B&W? Yes, there are two options, either a Phase One back or Leica M (Monochrome), both of with are out of reach for the vast majority of photographers.
Will Sony release an A7M (Monochrome) ILC being the leader in sensor manufacturing? Sony surely could pull this one off and provide a dedicated B&W camera in the range of $1500-$2500.
But till then what to buy to convert color to BW images? I assume great dynamic range and the ability to pull shadow detail are worth having when converting?
What to buy in the range up to $1000 and what up to $2000? Personally i see the Sony RX100 IV a viable option (great to pull shadow detail) in the lower price tier.
Looking forward to reading your comments. (I cross-posted it in the B&W section but i assume more 'gear heads' here)
Hello,
I went with a lot of different cameras but about B&W and B&W field shooting experience, nothing came close yet to the DP Merrill (for me). So yes, it is not full frame, there is no OVF or EVF but... it work. The DR is TREMENDOUS in B&W.
I'm doing reportage with it. It is very discrete, solid, work from ISO 100 to 3200 in B&W with STUNNING IQ, even by today standard and especially if the goal is printing.
There is a also the little ricoh GR.
Some basic examples: Right click to show bigger.
(http://i.imgur.com/WHa0DNU.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Q0UyX2c.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/eKBRC5O.jpg)
Hope this help :)
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I was looking for practical advise/reports from BW digital shooters that do NOT use the Leica M.
Look at a used Leica M8.
Use a Yellow filter when you know in advance that you will convert to Monochrome.
I have the M Monochrom- but expended some effort on Monochrome conversions from the M8 and M9 to see how close they could come.
https://www.leicaplace.com/threads/1145/page-2
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8824/16991248947_6487e3a71f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/rTsAm4)M1012676_small (https://flic.kr/p/rTsAm4) by fiftyonepointsix (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90768661@N02/), on Flickr
https://www.flickr.com/photos/90768661@N02/albums/72157649097415584
The M8 also makes for some very interesting color IR images.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8740/16402890674_44bb43be6b_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/qZt6VU)I1015872 (https://flic.kr/p/qZt6VU) by fiftyonepointsix (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90768661@N02/), on Flickr
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From the original post
.......But till then what to buy to convert color to BW images?..........
Don't buy anything. Use what you have and convert to B&W.
Brad
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Hello,
I went with a lot of different cameras but about B&W and B&W field shooting experience, nothing came close yet to the DP Merrill (for me). So yes, it is not full frame, there is no OVF or EVF but... it work. The DR is TREMENDOUS in B&W.
As far as I have read this has always been a limitation for these cameras, why is it so much better in b&w?
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One wonders why there has not been any effort so far by one of the mayor players to release a B&W digital camera that would offer better dynamic range, noise performance and overall image quality compared to converting current color images to B&W? Yes, there are two options, either a Phase One back or Leica M (Monochrome), both of with are out of reach for the vast majority of photographers.
I would like to see X-Rite try a B&W Profile using the ColorChecker Passport or with some other new target. Not sure if it would even be possible.
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From the original post
Don't buy anything. Use what you have and convert to B&W.
Brad
Yes, stop buying gear & take some photo's.
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As far as I have read this has always been a limitation for these cameras, why is it so much better in b&w?
Absolutely not. The Dr on Merrill is kind of awesome especially with fill light. In colour it can result in ugly HDR but in B&W it is a miracle tool. Here are one example, not an extreme one, per say :
ISO400 over exposed by 3 stops (even a bit more than 3 stops) : Right click/show image.
General view :
(http://i.imgur.com/meX5ZCb.jpg)
Crop :
(http://i.imgur.com/365i7E1.jpg)
Crop after rescue :
(http://i.imgur.com/5Irudrt.jpg)
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Echoing Armand: I've found that the files from my Fuji X-Pro1 cameras convert very well to black and white. I used to love 35mm HP5 pushed to 800 and souped in X-Tol and it's fairly easy to get a similar look out of the Fuji files through Lightroom with minimal fuss. And, the files look good clean, too.
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Thanks for your replies. It seems to really come down to the ergonomics/lens choice here, and the Sigma DP Merrill or Sony A7R/S series will be it for me.