Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: aragdog on September 19, 2015, 11:40:23 am
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I was in the French Quarter with some out of town friends who were here to take some photos. I know that LULA is coming here for a workshop but then I will be out of town on business for most of the visit. My reason for writing here is here we were in 95 degree heat lugging big Nikon SLR's and lenses. So near heart attacks a person walks up with a Sony A7RII and that was so light. By agreement it seems that us very old guys will have to make some switches. Thanks Kevin and the Boss for advising us and now if you cannot lug this stuff around, join the crowd as we will. So a lot of Nikon for a fire sale.
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It's fascinating that for all their product planning and market research, some companies have simply ignored the very real demographic change caused by an aging population.
Michael
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I recall, 30 years ago, happily hauling my 4x5 camera, a husky tripod, couple of lenses, a bunch of film holders, spot meter, loupe, shroud, and other necessities up and down hills and valleys. I could not do it now.
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Been there- used to have an RB67 hanging around my neck. Sony makes sense to anybody, unless the big dslr's have a feature that Sony doesn't.
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Heck RB, used to run around with that and a Hassy with a case and a bunch of lenses. When I say a case I mean a Halliburton. So what a fan I was. Now at 76 cannot do that at all, knee replacement and all. So on to whatever is light. I agree times are a changing.
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I do enjoy the smaller, lighter body and lenses of mirrorless gear, especially APS-C. There are other reasons for my transition too. For most of what I photograph these days there is no perceptible gain in using my DSLR. With mirrorless I also don't have to worry about front/back focus adjustments. Finally, with my Fuji X-T1 I just simply like the controls better and how it feels in my hand.
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It's fascinating that for all their product planning and market research, some companies have simply ignored the very real demographic change caused by an aging population.
Hum... maybe... or they looked at a world map and realized that we were mostly irrelevant compared to the growth in China, India and AP South? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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It's fascinating that for all their product planning and market research, some companies have simply ignored the very real demographic change caused by an aging population.
Michael
The average new car buyer in France now is ... 54 years old, I read in the newspaper today. Kids move to cities when young, don't drive and later and don't buy new cars.
Edmund
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The average new car buyer in France now is ... 54 years old, I read in the newspaper today. Kids move to cities when young, don't drive and later and don't buy new cars.
Edmund
Maybe parents buy cars for their children. ;D
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The average new car buyer in France now is ... 54 years old, I read in the newspaper today. Kids move to cities when young, don't drive and later and don't buy new cars.
Anyone who has tried driving in Paris should be able to understand why car ownership is seen by younger urban generations as a problem rather than as a solution...
The problem with cars isn't really the spec of the cars, is it the environment around the car, starting by the attitude of other drivers. ;) A car should be considered as one element of a super complex inter connected system made up of roads, people and other road users. The only real solution for cars in urban settings is a lot less cars followed by owners giving up their freedom to drive in the selfish way they want in favor of global optimization (the Singapore model).
Cameras are much more simple in that their main functions are a lot less impacted by the matrix.
Besides, cameras are currently mostly global products (same product/same spec for all worldwide customers) and the strategic technological investments and main product development efforts are mostly driven by an identification of the main worldwide trend. Which of developped countries population aging or developping nations increasing buying power is the key trend is debatable year on year, the resulting prorities are probably very different:
- compactness for the developped elder -> mirrorless?
- status and perception of absolute performance for the younger developping -> DSLR?
Cars, on the other hand, are now mostly developped locally on top of modular platforms and are targetting narrow population niches when need be. The car industry is a lot closer of being able to deliver real mass customization.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard
That all sounds very profound. Somebody less smart and technically less savvy than you might point out the obvious: There is a traffic matrix (roads) for cars, and a traffic matrix (the interwebs) for pictures. And a decent modern SLR or mirrorless's pictures cannot ride the interwebs without catching a ride via a computer, while a phone is a natural inhabitant of the information highway. Which is why cameras are losing traction, regardless of weight, MP or features. Sorry Michael, paper is so ... wait, I think Bernard has the word ... passé :)
Edmund
Anyone who has tried driving in Paris should be able to understand why car ownership is seen by younger urban generations as a problem rather than as a solution...
The problem with cars isn't really the spec of the cars, is it the environment around the car, starting by the attitude of other drivers. ;) A car should be considered as one element of a super complex inter connected system made up of roads, people and other road users. The only real solution for cars in urban settings is a lot less cars followed by owners giving up their freedom to drive in the selfish way they want in favor of global optimization (the Singapore model).
Cameras are much more simple in that their main functions are a lot less impacted by the matrix.
Besides, cameras are currently mostly global products (same product/same spec for all worldwide customers) and the strategic technological investments and main product development efforts are mostly driven by an identification of the main worldwide trend. Which of developped countries population aging or developping nations increasing buying power is the key trend is debatable year on year, the resulting prorities are probably very different:
- compactness for the developped elder -> mirrorless?
- status and perception of absolute performance for the younger developping -> DSLR?
Cars, on the other hand, are now mostly developped locally on top of modular platforms and are targetting narrow population niches when need be. The car industry is a lot closer of being able to deliver real mass customization.
Cheers,
Bernard
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...... Kids move to cities when young, don't drive and later and don't buy new cars.
Edmund
I'm delighted to hear that. I wish more would move to the huge metropolitan areas of the world. Without cars they'll likely stay there and avoid the peaceful countrysides that I inhabit. Of course, many feel that the countrysides should provide them with energy, food and water but that's a different story.
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It's fascinating that for all their product planning and market research, some companies have simply ignored the very real demographic change caused by an aging population.
Michael
Aging demographic that actually has some disposable money.
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The dSLR makers have a big problem.
Their customer base is aging to the point they don't want to carry big cameras anymore, and the younger generation is not interested in giant flappy-mirror cameras that suck for video.
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Bernard
That all sounds very profound. Somebody less smart and technically less savvy than you might point out the obvious: There is a traffic matrix (roads) for cars, and a traffic matrix (the interwebs) for pictures. And a decent modern SLR or mirrorless's pictures cannot ride the interwebs without catching a ride via a computer, while a phone is a natural inhabitant of the information highway. Which is why cameras are losing traction, regardless of weight, MP or features. Sorry Michael, paper is so ... wait, I think Bernard has the word ... passé :)
Edmund
:D
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Bernard
That all sounds very profound. Somebody less smart and technically less savvy than you might point out the obvious: There is a traffic matrix (roads) for cars, and a traffic matrix (the interwebs) for pictures. And a decent modern SLR or mirrorless's pictures cannot ride the interwebs without catching a ride via a computer, while a phone is a natural inhabitant of the information highway. Which is why cameras are losing traction, regardless of weight, MP or features. Sorry Michael, paper is so ... wait, I think Bernard has the word ... passé :)
:-)
Cheers,
Bernard
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I think Americans especially still like LARGE cameras, and i can see it here in SE Asia that the size of the camera/white L-lens is a status symbol for many shooters.
But mirrorless is fast catching up in the rest of SE Asia, outside of Japan.
Hum... maybe... or they looked at a world map and realized that we were mostly irrelevant compared to the growth in China, India and AP South? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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It isn't just a matter of heavy vs light cameras as you age.
To a large extent, it also becomes a matter of mental maturity, of eventually knowing what works and what doesn't.
Like others here have, I, too, wandered parts of the world, poor shoulder laden with either three Nikons and at least seven lenses or two 'blads and three lenses. I was younger, but also had a real requirment: work. Then, I had to be capable of attempting a wide range of images on any single assignment, so all that I owned of the format that was relevant had to travel with me.
Today, I'm not young, neither do I have photographic responsibilities. Today I am just another amateur going about the business of perhaps finding a single picture worth spending time on at the computer.
So, does it make sense to cart around a load of stuff that prevents me from going to the loo should I need to, simply because there's nobody around to keep an eye on my junk as I use the washroom? Am I likey to want to shoot something happening a hundred yards away from me – if I can't even tell what that might be? No.
Freedom of mind is an essential part of creativity.
Putting a single camera/lens combination over your shoulder as you leave the house is the answer to pretty much everything: it frees the mind to concentrate in one direction, which is really what concentration implies.
Travel simple; free your eye. If even one camera/lens is too much, then it may be time to think again and do something else. As I wrote elsewhere in LuLa, you can find a helluva lot to shoot just at home, if you but look for it. If you can't see it there, what makes you imagine that you'll see it somewhere else? Your old slr/dslr can give you all you ever need if your stuff just ends up on the web. Why impoverish yourself buying loads of obsolescent junk?
In the end, you can't buy yourself great vision.
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The average new car buyer in France now is ... 54 years old, I read in the newspaper today. Kids move to cities when young, don't drive and later and don't buy new cars.
Edmund
I 10 years from now (or sooner) nobody will buy a car in the city anyway as selfdriving electric cars will take you around where you want ordered by smartphone apps. It will also limit health threatening diesel busses and make most taxi drivers unemployed ... I find no real analogy with cameras though. Except that at that time phones with multiple lenses will have replaced and made redundant most cameras.
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Travel simple; free your eye. If even one camera/lens is too much, then it may be time to think again and do something else. As I wrote elsewhere in LuLa, you can find a helluva lot to shoot just at home, if you but look for it. If you can't see it there, what makes you imagine that you'll see it somewhere else? Your old slr/dslr can give you all you ever need if your stuff just ends up on the web. Why impoverish yourself buying loads of obsolescent junk?
In the end, you can't buy yourself great vision.
Seeing is the Art...how we present that is our voice choice.
Peter
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I do enjoy the smaller, lighter body and lenses of mirrorless gear, especially APS-C. There are other reasons for my transition too. For most of what I photograph these days there is no perceptible gain in using my DSLR. With mirrorless I also don't have to worry about front/back focus adjustments. Finally, with my Fuji X-T1 I just simply like the controls better and how it feels in my hand.
I just got back from 3 months in San Miguel de Allende. Took 800E plus 35mm and 28mm, and X-E2 with 27mm and 18mm. Shot every day. End up taking the Nikon out 2 or 3 times. Turns out the Fuji's lighter weight, quieter operation and pre-exposure histogram offset the pretty much marginal amount of IQ and DR I was giving up on my usual 17x22 print size. And I used to be fine with lugging the D800 + 24-70mm f.2.8 around.... The times they are a changin'. The Sony may be on the horizon for me.
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Here's my current take, although I don't know where I fit in the demographic(s). I (strictly amateur) walked around/traveled first with various 35mm cameras, and then with a 35mm camera and lenses, winder, film, etc. Actually took a holiday from photography for some years after getting tired of lugging the kit around. Digital came around and after trying my hand at printing, ripped out the darkroom and moved forward. After close to ten years I once again found myself lugging a pretty heavy (APSC) camera and a few lenses around. Have mostly cut that back to the camera and one lens, either prime or zoom. Just came back from a three week trip (photography secondary) where I carried one camera, a Fuji X100T. I bought this camera because it had an APSC sized sensor, I liked the form factor and was curious about the Xtrans sensor. About an hour ago I printed some of the pictures that I took on the trip and am very pleased with results. Laying aside the camera's quirks and the fact that I'm not used to the fixed, wider focal length (purposely didn't want to buy into another system..yet), I am very happy with the combination of camera size and picture quality. As far as the demographics go, I am over 70 and the next camera I buy, will most definitely be mirrorless.
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Here's my current take, although I don't know where I fit in the demographic(s). I (strictly amateur) walked around/traveled first with various 35mm cameras, and then with a 35mm camera and lenses, winder, film, etc. Actually took a holiday from photography for some years after getting tired of lugging the kit around. Digital came around and after trying my hand at printing, ripped out the darkroom and moved forward. After close to ten years I once again found myself lugging a pretty heavy (APSC) camera and a few lenses around. Have mostly cut that back to the camera and one lens, either prime or zoom. Just came back from a three week trip (photography secondary) where I carried one camera, a Fuji X100T. I bought this camera because it had an APSC sized sensor, I liked the form factor and was curious about the Xtrans sensor. About an hour ago I printed some of the pictures that I took on the trip and am very pleased with results. Laying aside the camera's quirks and the fact that I'm not used to the fixed, wider focal length (purposely didn't want to buy into another system..yet), I am very happy with the combination of camera size and picture quality. As far as the demographics go, I am over 70 and the next camera I buy, will most definitely be mirrorless.
This is one reason I think Fuji has been very smart in sticking at aps-c size given the performance of sensors now. Full frame cameras like Sony will still end up with the same size lenses. I think they would be well advised to also make f/2 primes that are much smaller and lighter than try and match the 1.4 slr lenses for which good performing versions require them to be zeiss otus and sigma art sized.
Personally the size doesn't bother me too much since I go out to take photographs specifically rather than take a camera along on a day out so I am interested in mirrorless for other reasons. There are times when a less ostentatious camera would be welcome and for this reason I own a second camera alongside the dslr and would rather not have to.
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Full frame cameras like Sony will still end up with the same size lenses. I think they would be well advised to also make f/2 primes that are much smaller and lighter than try and match the 1.4 slr lenses for which good performing versions require them to be zeiss otus and sigma art sized.
A Sony A7 series camera and just about any lens is still going to be smaller and lighter than a FF DSLR and the same lens. My A7 and 35mm f2.8 or 55mm f1.8 fit in the same small bag I'd take one of my MFT cameras out in.
I see other advantages in mirrorless other than just bulk and weight but if those are the main priorities then I think that an A7 plus one of the native primes makes an attractive and relatively small and light package and certainly not significantly larger or heavier than any of the other interchangeable lens mirrorless options unless you go for one of the smallest MFT cameras and a pancake lens.
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does it make sense to cart around a load of stuff that prevents me from going to the loo
:D!!!
Not to mention not being able to see straight, shaky hands, time to waste, way too much money... isn´t this why others buy sports cars?
Look what happened to 4WDs: they used to be designed for off-road adventure until some suit monkies found out most of the people buying them were driving to the supermarket and changed their products accordingly, so now we have 4WDS that are great for going to the supermarket and if you are so old-fashioned you want to head for the hills then you are probably better off with a 10 year old 4WD than a new one.
So maybe camera sellers are just catching up with everybody else if they start designing high end cameras for people who want one that doesn´t prevent them from going to the loo?
Hmmm... is this why I just bought an A7?
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The dSLR makers have a big problem.
Their customer base is aging to the point they don't want to carry big cameras anymore, and the younger generation is not interested in giant flappy-mirror cameras that suck for video.
Not all DSLRs are big anymore, let alone giant... even in film days, there were big (read pro) cameras and small (read amateur) cameras. My first SLR was a Canon EOS 1000 (aka Rebel) that I bought in 1990 or 1991. The equivalent DSLR today is still small, and packs enormous IQ.
The fact is, the majority of tourists I see in Lisbon, London, Paris, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, and Muscat, still carry small DSLRs. Some will even have (God forbid!) big DSLRs with L zooms...
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The camera industry is undergoing an evolutionary surge currently.
What things will look like once the storm settles is anyones guess.
Nonetheless current mirrorless cameras are stirring up the industry like nothing has since the transition to digital imaging.
(Although thinking about it the wholesale move from point-and-shoot cameras to Smartphones is also right up there.)
Sony products in particular will likely force both Canon and Nikon to radically revise their whole product development and marketing strategy - in fact it almost certainly has already.
Global economic conditions are also going to impact how things develop over the next few years.
Hopefully, both Canon and Nikon will respond constructively and creatively to push the industry to new highs.
One also hopes that the ghost of Kodak is intimidating enough to preclude either putting their heads in the sand.
We are living in uncertain times and time will tell as to who is reading their tealeaves the best.
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Hi,
Just a small comment after shooting Sony A7rII on two weeks of vacation...
The camera is quite nice. What I observed is that it is sort of nice at higher ISOs, so I think we can have smaller maximum apertures on lenses like the Batis 85/1.8 or 24-70/4 zooms. That said, the A7rII still needs a standard zoom to match. Long lens options are also needed. I was shooting the A-mount 70-400/4-5.6G with adapter, and it worked very well.
Best regards
Erik
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I am getting older and I do feel the weight more than I used to but I still lug my 810 around for landscape, surfing and birding, anything else I take my Leica M and usually one lens. The Sony bandwagon does not appeal.
And going in a completely opposite direction - have anyone of you seen the files from the new Leica S007? There is a good reason for those larger sensors.
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the majority of tourists I see in Lisbon, London, Paris, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, and Muscat, still carry small DSLRs. Some will even have (God forbid!) big DSLRs with L zooms...
Many I see are using tablets, which suggests to me size may not be the main consideration.
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It's fascinating that for all their product planning and market research, some companies have simply ignored the very real demographic change caused by an aging population.
Not wrong.
I can't believe the amount of text around that is simple unreadable for me - even with my glasses.