Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Pro Business Discussion => Topic started by: Justinr on September 11, 2015, 09:20:52 am
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Does anyone use a drone for commercial photography or have sense of the costs and pitfalls?
I know of a particular customer base who are increasingly using them but I do wonder whether it's more a case of model aircraft enthusiasts branching out or photographers getting into it as the skill is in piloting the aircraft. I also know that they can be a damn nuisance at times with their unwelcome presence in shots or the operator not being aware of what's going on around him as he is too busy watching the heavens. I've also looked into the restrictions on their use and there don't appear to be that many which surprised me, probably because the busybodies haven't woken up to the joyful opportunity of telling other people what they can and can't do, yet!
EDIT: From a conversation I've just had I think the word 'commercial' changes all that!
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Does anyone use a drone for commercial photography or have sense of the costs and pitfalls?
I know of a particular customer base who are increasingly using them but I do wonder whether it's more a case of model aircraft enthusiasts branching out or photographers getting into it as the skill is in piloting the aircraft. I also know that they can be a damn nuisance at times with their unwelcome presence in shots or the operator not being aware of what's going on around him as he is too busy watching the heavens. I've also looked into the restrictions on their use and there don't appear to be that many which surprised me, probably because the busybodies haven't woken up to the joyful opportunity of telling other people what they can and can't do, yet!
EDIT: From a conversation I've just had I think the word 'commercial' changes all that!
One of the first thing you will find when looking up drone restrictions is you're prohibited from using them for commercial use. The only way around it is to apply to the FAA for permission. Now the FAA is starting to relax on this and issuing some licenses. The so called "busy bodies" are actually working on a set of rules as we type that should include commercial usage. Now with that said, there is no shortage of people using them for commercial use despite the current rules. This is one of the reasons I suspect was behind Congress telling the FAA to create new rules that would allow commercial usage. No one knows for sure what the new rules imply but I suspect they will be similar to the old model aircraft rules, no flying within 1 nautical mile of any airport ( straight line, I hear their pushing for 5 miles) and with a max ceiling of 400 feet ( I'm also hearing 200 feet). That and do going hovering it out side your neighbors windows lol
As for who's branching out, drones are nothing more than model aircraft and they have been around for decades before the public was hearing about drones in the news. The term drone applied to model aircraft was simply a marketing ploy. No different than a gun store selling you an AR15 calling it an M4...M4 are military only. Anyhow, I think drones have exploded due to the ease of operation and more affordable than previous model aircraft. I probably spent more time repairing my old choppers than flying in the first year. It took me about 10 minutes fooling around with my DJI Phanton II to get the hang of it. I've crashed it a couple times but thats due to me flying it in high winds. It took me about 5 minutes to replace the props and without tools.
Anyhow, I think drones are usable in some situations like real estate...especially large properties. That and getting shots of places you other wise can't or better perspectives. The latter in the reason I bought my drone. The more affordable drones are limited to 10-12mp cameras. You're looking at $6,000-10,000 for anything capable of carrying a DSLR with my MPs.
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The FAA draft rules were published in February. There was a sixty day comment period and they are currently drafting the final rules which are expected to go into effect sometime this fall. The Requirement for a pilots license will be replaced by a written test. You can search online for the draft rules.
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One of the first thing you will find when looking up drone restrictions is you're prohibited from using them for commercial use. The only way around it is to apply to the FAA for permission. Now the FAA is starting to relax on this and issuing some licenses. The so called "busy bodies" are actually working on a set of rules as we type that should include commercial usage. Now with that said, there is no shortage of people using them for commercial use despite the current rules. This is one of the reasons I suspect was behind Congress telling the FAA to create new rules that would allow commercial usage. No one knows for sure what the new rules imply but I suspect they will be similar to the old model aircraft rules, no flying within 1 nautical mile of any airport ( straight line, I hear their pushing for 5 miles) and with a max ceiling of 400 feet ( I'm also hearing 200 feet). That and do going hovering it out side your neighbors windows lol
As for who's branching out, drones are nothing more than model aircraft and they have been around for decades before the public was hearing about drones in the news. The term drone applied to model aircraft was simply a marketing ploy. No different than a gun store selling you an AR15 calling it an M4...M4 are military only. Anyhow, I think drones have exploded due to the ease of operation and more affordable than previous model aircraft. I probably spent more time repairing my old choppers than flying in the first year. It took me about 10 minutes fooling around with my DJI Phanton II to get the hang of it. I've crashed it a couple times but thats due to me flying it in high winds. It took me about 5 minutes to replace the props and without tools.
Anyhow, I think drones are usable in some situations like real estate...especially large properties. That and getting shots of places you other wise can't or better perspectives. The latter in the reason I bought my drone. The more affordable drones are limited to 10-12mp cameras. You're looking at $6,000-10,000 for anything capable of carrying a DSLR with my MPs.
Having looked around a bit more I see that in the UK there is a code of practice and certain catch all laws which may be applied, but as yet I can't find any requirement for actually holding a license issued by a government authority. Instead, you will need a BNUS-S qualification for commercial work which probably amounts to the same thing to us, but to a lawyer there may be a world of difference.
Ireland normally (always) follows the UK in these sort of matters, but I'm not sure if any regulations are in force at the moment.
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Justin,
...I see that in the UK there is a code of practice and certain catch all laws which may be applied, but as yet I can't find any requirement for actually holding a license issued by a government authority.
In order for the Civil Aviation Authority (https://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=2345) (which is a public body) to grant permission for a drone to be used for commercial work, the drone operator must demonstrate their competence (https://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1995&pagetype=90&pageid=11190), normally by providing evidence of successful completion of a CAA-recognised course, for example this (http://www.aerialmotionpictures.co.uk/training/).
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In Canada, you need a "SFOC" - Special Flight Operations Certificate" to fly commercial in almost all urban and built up areas. Out in the country, in Class "G" airspace, might be different as long as you have your commercial insurance.
Again, in Canada, if you want to go commercial, I highly, highly, highly recommend you take a ground school course. The one I am taking cost $250, text book another $100, and some charts and maps will likely run you anywhere form another $100 to $200. You will need other publications, but those area almost all online, in PDF format, and downloadable for free. The one I am taking gives you 9 months to finish, but after three months, I am about 50% through.
What you need to look for is this, quoting: "The course is in compliance with TP 15263E (08/2014) Knowledge Requirements for Pilots of Unmanned Air Vehicle Systems UAV 25 kg or less, Operating within Visual Line of Sight."
Once you get that under your belt, trust me, things are much easier.
Another thing to consider. Putting words in the mouth of Transport Canada, their attitude seems to be this: If you are a hobbyist flyer, no problem, but if you go commercial, then you are a pilot, and you will be a pilot, training and all.
Hope that helps a bit. I think the world of drones / UAVs will explode commercially, so now is the time to jump in ahead, but you have to decide what way you are going.
good luck
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As for who's branching out, drones are nothing more than model aircraft and they have been around for decades before the public was hearing about drones in the news. The term drone applied to model aircraft was simply a marketing ploy. No different than a gun store selling you an AR15 calling it an M4...M4 are military only. Anyhow, I think drones have exploded due to the ease of operation and more affordable than previous model aircraft. I probably spent more time repairing my old choppers than flying in the first year. It took me about 10 minutes fooling around with my DJI Phanton II to get the hang of it. I've crashed it a couple times but thats due to me flying it in high winds. It took me about 5 minutes to replace the props and without tools.
-snip-
The stuff I am looking is is bigger. Like you said, something that will carry a DSLR is $10,000 or more, but that is pretty basic. For example, in Detroit, Lockheed-Martin is building Police UAVs. Comparing these things to a DJI phantom or similar is like comparing your AR15/ M4 to a Red Ryder BB gun. Some amazing stuff out there.
:D
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You have to go for ground school in Canada as part of your SFOC.
I have $12,000+ into mine and I could spend another $5-8000. I bought the wrong gimbal (photohigher) and once I upgrade to a DJI Ronin, I will have to upgrade ESCs, props and motors. Plus the insurance company wants $1500-2000 for liability every year. I was planning on using my Black Magic 4k and D800.
I burns me up that every real estate agent and their dog is using UAVs to do aerial photos/videos. The fines for not following the SFOC is $5,000 personal and $25,000 for a company
In Canada, you need a "SFOC" - Special Flight Operations Certificate" to fly commercial in almost all urban and built up areas. Out in the country, in Class "G" airspace, might be different as long as you have your commercial insurance.
Again, in Canada, if you want to go commercial, I highly, highly, highly recommend you take a ground school course. The one I am taking cost $250, text book another $100, and some charts and maps will likely run you anywhere form another $100 to $200. You will need other publications, but those area almost all online, in PDF format, and downloadable for free. The one I am taking gives you 9 months to finish, but after three months, I am about 50% through.
What you need to look for is this, quoting: "The course is in compliance with TP 15263E (08/2014) Knowledge Requirements for Pilots of Unmanned Air Vehicle Systems UAV 25 kg or less, Operating within Visual Line of Sight."
Once you get that under your belt, trust me, things are much easier.
Another thing to consider. Putting words in the mouth of Transport Canada, their attitude seems to be this: If you are a hobbyist flyer, no problem, but if you go commercial, then you are a pilot, and you will be a pilot, training and all.
Hope that helps a bit. I think the world of drones / UAVs will explode commercially, so now is the time to jump in ahead, but you have to decide what way you are going.
good luck
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You have to go for ground school in Canada as part of your SFOC.
I have $12,000+ into mine and I could spend another $5-8000. I bought the wrong gimbal (photohigher) and once I upgrade to a DJI Ronin, I will have to upgrade ESCs, props and motors. Plus the insurance company wants $1500-2000 for liability every year. I was planning on using my Black Magic 4k and D800.
I burns me up that every real estate agent and their dog is using UAVs to do aerial photos/videos. The fines for not following the SFOC is $5,000 personal and $25,000 for a company
Yep, that sounds about right. There was a lad at the ploughing match with a cheapo machine wandering round looking very pleased with himself, ten to one he was a chancer with not a scrap of paper to his activities. He went unchallenged, I thought about it but was unsure of my ground.
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I thought about it but was unsure of my ground.
You could have engaged him in a conversation on the uselessness of AE and he'd have left the event without flying his drone.
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You could have engaged him in a conversation on the uselessness of AE and he'd have left the event without flying his drone.
I could of, and that would have been my approach, but it wasn't quite as simple as that. He was in fact in the press tent surrounded by colleagues who probably thought that drones are the latest whizz bang super dooper gadgets ever invented as well.
Sometimes it's best to keep your mouth shut and get on with your own job.
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Hi Justin, I'm a long way from Tipperary but in the US we now need to file for what's called a Part 333 exemption to fly for commercial use. Our FAA is requiring that the operator have a Sport Pilot Certificate at a minimum. I've been a fixed wing pilot for many years, and I am currently awaiting the approval of my application so I can begin to legally operate commercially. One thing I would strongly advise you is to have one person do the flying and another operate the camera. It is much less stressful and a whole lot safer IMHO. Right now my fleet consists of a DJI Vision 2+ and an Inspire 1. My aim is to offer services for Real Estate and construction.
Best of Luck!!
Kevin in CT USA
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-snip-
The stuff I am looking is is bigger. Like you said, something that will carry a DSLR is $10,000 or more, but that is pretty basic. For example, in Detroit, Lockheed-Martin is building Police UAVs. Comparing these things to a DJI phantom or similar is like comparing your AR15/ M4 to a Red Ryder BB gun. Some amazing stuff out there.
:D
Oh sure, you can go forever with any hobby or field. Example, the oil field is one of the first allowed to use commercial drones in the U.S. I believe they use primarily Boeing ScanEagles which can run $100,000 or more. However, you can pick up a Cessna 172 under $25k and a 182 around $40k. Hell, I can charter a helicopter service here locally for $500 an hour and take all the photos I need. It's all relative to what you need i suppose. I'm a retired oilfield worker/landscape photographer. We could easily afford a $25k drone but we simply don't need it. The DJI Phantom does great for my needs...although I may upgrade to the dJI Inspire.
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Hi Justin, I'm a long way from Tipperary but in the US we now need to file for what's called a Part 333 exemption to fly for commercial use. Our FAA is requiring that the operator have a Sport Pilot Certificate at a minimum. I've been a fixed wing pilot for many years, and I am currently awaiting the approval of my application so I can begin to legally operate commercially. One thing I would strongly advise you is to have one person do the flying and another operate the camera. It is much less stressful and a whole lot safer IMHO. Right now my fleet consists of a DJI Vision 2+ and an Inspire 1. My aim is to offer services for Real Estate and construction.
Best of Luck!!
Kevin in CT USA
Thanks for the info Kevin, but having looked into the potential this end I'm not sure that there would be the demand to justify getting a drone let alone embarking on the journey to being fully compliant with requirements. There are a few companies that would worry about the legalities of it all but most wouldn't care or want to know, just so long as any fall out didn't land in their lap. As for the quality of the image I despair over how businesses promote themselves over web and social media in particular. They'll talk the big talk about SEO and click throughs etc etc and then post the most God awful snaps of something pertaining to their company! But that's probably a subject for another thread.
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Thanks for the info Kevin, but having looked into the potential this end I'm not sure that there would be the demand to justify getting a drone let alone embarking on the journey to being fully compliant with requirements. There are a few companies that would worry about the legalities of it all but most wouldn't care or want to know, just so long as any fall out didn't land in their lap. As for the quality of the image I despair over how businesses promote themselves over web and social media in particular. They'll talk the big talk about SEO and click throughs etc etc and then post the most God awful snaps of something pertaining to their company! But that's probably a subject for another thread.
In my area (US southwest) there are a few people offering drone imagery along with stills for RE photography. The typical fee is $385 for a set of drone images or short video along with approx. 40 photos of the property.
This is clearly an attempt to attract a client by getting a slight upcharge for the drone images.
In the end there is only a small market for drone images as very few people need more than one or two stills and a few seconds of video. As the public believes these are cheap toys they cannot feature paying anything resembling a professional fee.
Anyone wanting real production will not be talking to a newbie no matter what gear they bring to the table. They will be calling someone with a portfolio that displays the kind of production value they are looking for. There are already real production houses that have built a portfolio of great aerial work with conventional aircraft and can now bring their expertise to drones but will not be downsizing the price.
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In the end there is only a small market for drone images as very few people need more than one or two stills and a few seconds of video.
Agreed, the only real estate usage I've run across has been larger homes with land....usually vacation lake homes etc.
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You could have engaged him in a conversation on the uselessness of AE and he'd have left the event without flying his drone.
;D
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http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=19555
SkyPan fined $1.9 million for using a drone in 65 unauthorized operations.
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Agreed, the only real estate usage I've run across has been larger homes with land....usually vacation lake homes etc.
Personally I was thinking more of companies with large outdoor installations or new facilities that can only be appreciated from the air and it was these that I originally had in mind, but I rather think that the market is too limited to justify the time and money getting all the certification, certainly here in Ireland anyway.
There are also companies that do it by helicopter and they tend to bundle up the jobs into a days shooting which probably brings the cost down to something similar to doing it by drone, but that's only a guess.
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Check carefully as you are dealing the Federal Law Enforcement.
Some locations, such as the State of North Dakota - are free fly zones for Unmanned Aerial Vehicles - drones. A lot of that is University of North Dakota having one of the top UAV programs in the nation - and Grand Forks Air Force Base next door which is helping them.
Check carefully so you don't get a surprise visit from law enforcement.
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Check carefully as you are dealing the Federal Law Enforcement.
Some locations, such as the State of North Dakota - are free fly zones for Unmanned Aerial Vehicles - drones. A lot of that is University of North Dakota having one of the top UAV programs in the nation - and Grand Forks Air Force Base next door which is helping them.
Check carefully so you don't get a surprise visit from law enforcement.
DJI who is one of the more popular quad chopter manufactures is starting to install built in no-fly zone maps into their drones. This will prevent their drones from entering into no fly zones. This is monitored through the built in GPS guidance programing. I think this is a step in the right direction to help prevent issues we're seeing with drones around airports.
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Update:
FAA issued new small UAV or Drone rules.
https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=84384
Starting December 21st, all Drones bought on or after this date is required to register their drones with the FAA. Drones bought prior to December 21st has until February 19, 2016 to register.
Now these new rules are more to do with Registration than they are about rules. I mean the only real change is the fact that you have to register your drone, whether it be a toy, hobby, or commercial drone. They so far have still failed to make revisions to the rules that would streamline the use for commercial drones. You can apply to the FAA for a Special Airwrothiness certificate or Waver Certificate. The original plan by Congress was to make rules that would streamline the use of commercial drones but that mission was hijacked by the folks miss using drones and the hysteria it created with people.
So for now, we're back at square one with the original rules stating you can't use drones for commercial use...barring a special certificate from the FAA.
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Whoa! :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJu4kmcy8gQ
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Whoa! :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJu4kmcy8gQ
That was not good, it appears to be something a lot heavier than the usual 2 pounder and most certainly have caused a great deal of damage.
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Update:
FAA issued new small UAV or Drone rules.
https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=84384
Starting December 21st, all Drones bought on or after this date is required to register their drones with the FAA. Drones bought prior to December 21st has until February 19, 2016 to register.
Now these new rules are more to do with Registration than they are about rules. I mean the only real change is the fact that you have to register your drone, whether it be a toy, hobby, or commercial drone. They so far have still failed to make revisions to the rules that would streamline the use for commercial drones. You can apply to the FAA for a Special Airwrothiness certificate or Waver Certificate. The original plan by Congress was to make rules that would streamline the use of commercial drones but that mission was hijacked by the folks miss using drones and the hysteria it created with people.
So for now, we're back at square one with the original rules stating you can't use drones for commercial use...barring a special certificate from the FAA.
Actually, the registration requirement is for units weighing 1/2 pound or more. This effectively eliminates the registration of the "toy" class of aircraft. The bad news is that it applies to all model aircraft; fixed wing, rotary wing, and multi rotor craft. The Part 333 exemption process for commercial use is a bit intimidating at first but there is no charge for the exemption per se from the FAA. If you know where to look you will finds folks that will prepare your application for darn near free and walk you through the application process. Like anything else in life there are those that are looking to make a quick buck on this and will charge multi thousands of dollars to "prepare" your application. You should be aware that a pilot's license is not necessary to apply for and be granted the exemption, it is only necessary for the person flying the drone (PIC in FAA terms).
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That was not good, it appears to be something a lot heavier than the usual 2 pounder and most certainly have caused a great deal of damage.
They say it was filming for tv broadcast. I wonder what impact this could have on regulation? Would have been bad if it hit him, even if he was ok because it would have disrupted his run.
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Actually, the registration requirement is for units weighing 1/2 pound or more. This effectively eliminates the registration of the "toy" class of aircraft. The bad news is that it applies to all model aircraft; fixed wing, rotary wing, and multi rotor craft. The Part 333 exemption process for commercial use is a bit intimidating at first but there is no charge for the exemption per se from the FAA. If you know where to look you will finds folks that will prepare your application for darn near free and walk you through the application process. Like anything else in life there are those that are looking to make a quick buck on this and will charge multi thousands of dollars to "prepare" your application. You should be aware that a pilot's license is not necessary to apply for and be granted the exemption, it is only necessary for the person flying the drone (PIC in FAA terms).
Toy is a relative term...the difference between a boy and a man is the price of their toys? It does exclude the chap walmart toys but it does target the entire hobby community. This new ruling actually contradicts the FAA's section 336 rules which exempts model aircraft from such rules as registration.
Anyhow, as mentioned above, you can apply to the FAA for a Special Airworthiness Certificate or a Waver Certificate in order to use your drones for commercial use.
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I'm finally getting around to applying for my Section 333 Exemption.
First off, if you plan on using your drone for commercial use, you can to register your drone the old fashion way, using official FAA forms and the US mail. The online registration is for hobbyist only. The FAA does mention they plan to launch an online commercial registration mid year. It's more in-depth is one reason in terms of information you must give the FAA is the possible reason as to why it will be a while. You have to prove the drone has never been registered outside the U.S. for example...a paper receipt works.
Second of all, the FAA doesn't require the person applying for the Section 333 Exemption to be a certified pilot. A non pilot can apply and receive one. BUT, The FAA does require the drone operated to be a certified pilot. There is at this time no way around this one folks. If you don't have a license, either hire someone who does or get one your self...hot air ballon pilot's license seems to be a popular choice due to low cost and speedy certification.
Now with that said, the FAA is hinting at a UAV specific license. This only makes sense, I don't know about you but I don't see my self working for peanuts videoing homes for real estate agents when I could make $60-100k with a pilots license. So if you're interested in using drones for commercial use, I would go ahead and apply for your 333 Exemption since it can take up to 120 days for approval. Who knows, the FAA could introduce an attainable UAV license in that time.