Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: ThirstyDursty on September 06, 2015, 06:30:59 pm
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Looking at options for mounting on Gatorboard some panoramic
I'm not going to frame, as cost would bankrupt me. Although I have it all costed for sales.
So I came up with plan to
- mount on Gatorboard
- varnish
- edge with a canvas float mount frame.
I've looked at a few options
1) buy Gatorboard and pressure activated adhesive and try myself (high risk as I'm ignorant and unskilled at this process
2) some local framers gave quotes (expensive)
3) the local wholesaler of Gatorboard to framers also mounts. And their price is appealing.
Issue...they said they use a heat process that gets to about 70c
Will this damage my prints? Chanson Baryta paper, Epson P800 printer.
They said to varnish after mounting as heat will mess it up.
Any advice or opinions?
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Heat will not hurt the print. At least hasn't hurt mine.
For Canson I use 185 F. Platine and Baryta.
I use Bienfang rag mount for my mounting.
Paul
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Heat will not hurt the print. At least hasn't hurt mine.
For Canson I use 185 F. Platine and Baryta.
I use Bienfang rag mount for my mounting.
Paul
Thanks for the reply. Do you varnish before or after? Or at all? These won't be glazed.
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For paper prints I don't varnish. I dry mount then mount with glass. Mat and glass.
But for sure don't varnish before you dry mount as the heat more than likely would re-activate the varnish.
Paul
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Why don't you just hing/T mount them?
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I have dry mounted inkjet both dye based and pigmented prints on gatorfoam for years and have never seen any ill effects yet. However, I never mount at temperatures above 190 degrees. I would assume your guy would use the mounting tissues designed for the low temp mounting.
bob snow
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You can always hinge mount. With 100% cotton rag papers, if you have a humid climate, the print will not stay down and will ripple over time. At least from my experience. Matte papers are better for the hinge mounting, glossy are more prone to show the ripples.
Paul
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Just in case you don't already know, Gatorboard is not acid free or archival. Dry mounting with low temperature tissue will be OK.
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Just in case you don't already know, Gatorboard is not acid free or archival. Dry mounting with low temperature tissue will be OK.
For this purpose, I'm not too worried about that. 31 days in a gallery.
However, the on sales I'm worried about...I've priced traditional framing and have print prices.
All that said...if I could make a better choice..I would.
Looking for an option without frame and glazing.
Panos are 1-1.8m and 40 cm tall.
I just couldn't justify framing and glazing them.
Do you have a suggestion?
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If you are selling artwork for under $1,000, I wouldn't hesitate to dry mount onto gator board and use flat black metal frames (glazing not necessary). If someone inquires about longevity, offer to sell the print unmounted/unframed. Metal frames are inexpensive and you can assemble them yourself. Most people who buy art priced under a few thousand dollars are interested in how well a piece will fit above the couch or decorate a wall. I wouldn't hesitate to print onto a satin finish PK paper such as Epson Ultra Premium Luster. The wider color gamut along with deeper blacks will work to your advantage.
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Next time out you might try canvas. I have seen public places, i.e. restaurants and offices, etc that have pretty decent prints that are simply canvas on a stretcher frame.
I approached a Museum gallery that I have some stuff in and they were not thrilled with the idea, but they are art snobs.
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Next time out you might try canvas. I have seen public places, i.e. restaurants and offices, etc that have pretty decent prints that are simply canvas on a stretcher frame.
I approached a Museum gallery that I have some stuff in and they were not thrilled with the idea, but they are art snobs.
Not a fan of canvas. I totally get what your saying, and maybe I'll come around...but I feel like a snob about it.
The texture just seems too course. I much prefer the look of a Baryta paper or the very fine texture mat papers
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If you are selling artwork for under $1,000, I wouldn't hesitate to dry mount onto gator board and use flat black metal frames (glazing not necessary). If someone inquires about longevity, offer to sell the print unmounted/unframed. Metal frames are inexpensive and you can assemble them yourself. Most people who buy art priced under a few thousand dollars are interested in how well a piece will fit above the couch or decorate a wall. I wouldn't hesitate to print onto a satin finish PK paper such as Epson Ultra Premium Luster. The wider color gamut along with deeper blacks will work to your advantage.
Yes. Under $1000
I am selling prints of the panoramas for ~$300-400
Currently I'm pricing my unframed prints
at
A2 $200
A3 $75
A4 $45
As I print myself this seems to be fine.
Selling them framed adds a few buck, but hassle too. An A3 in a basic black or white wood frame for $220 and A2 for $350
They are selling well. So am thinking of raising the prices. Thinking of going to limited edition prints and raising the price x% each sale.
While I'm enjoying this...it is taking away from capturing photos and planning/thinking about creative ideas.
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Not a fan of canvas. I totally get what your saying, and maybe I'll come around...but I feel like a snob about it.
The texture just seems too course. I much prefer the look of a Baryta paper or the very fine texture mat papers
Sarcasm - Too bad there have not been any important or expensive paintings done on canvas, just too course.
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Not a fan of canvas. I totally get what your saying, and maybe I'll come around...but I feel like a snob about it.
The texture just seems too course. I much prefer the look of a Baryta paper or the very fine texture mat papers
Inkjet canvas can produce excellent fine details. And for larger prints, it can be a very cost effective way to see your work on a wall.
Gallery wrap, or mounted. When I produce a really large print, I always move towards a canvas solution.
The framing costs add up very fast when trying to frame a 24 x 60, or 40 x 60 sized print.
I have standardized on Breathing Color's canvas, both matte and glossy. Excellent fine details.
Epson 9900.
Paul
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Inkjet canvas can produce excellent fine details. And for larger prints, it can be a very cost effective way to see your work on a wall.
Gallery wrap, or mounted. When I produce a really large print, I always move towards a canvas solution.
The framing costs add up very fast when trying to frame a 24 x 60, or 40 x 60 sized print.
I have standardized on Breathing Color's canvas, both matte and glossy. Excellent fine details.
Epson 9900.
Paul
cost always seems the driving factor.
But maybe I should get a roll and see how I feel. Rather then be an armchair opinion.
I see you can even get canvas for watercolor painting now...what has the world come too!
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...
Do you have a suggestion?
Not one that fits all of the requirements. Custom framing is expensive and doing all of that yourself is a huge undertaking in terms of equipment and learning curve along with everything else you're doing. You say "While I'm enjoying this...it is taking away from capturing photos and planning/thinking about creative ideas". Based on experience that problem will only get worse. The obvious and simple fact is that the more things you do the less time you have for each.
I'm used to situations where a gallery sells what they have on display. Once in a long while they may change a frame or a mat, or we might get a request to make a larger or smaller version of a certain print, but prints usually sell as-is straight off the wall. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, you will display prints with a varnished finish that are framed with no mat or glass, and these prints are only for display and not for sale. Oddly or not, I've never seen that situation. The mounting material wouldn't matter but I'd still be concerned about displaying anything that is visually different, or on different media, than what people will purchase.
Then there's your preferences. Like you I happen to prefer prints on smooth surfaced baryta paper or smooth surfaced (hot press) matte finished papers, and those papers are the only media I use. There's nothing wrong with cold press paper, metal, canvas, or any other media, but I'd rather use those papers. IMO signing and selling a print means it's 100% as you'd like it for yourself. I'd advise making what you are most happy making, and with a little luck the rest will follow.
Whatever you do, best of luck with it.
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Not one that fits all of the requirements. Custom framing is expensive and doing all of that yourself is a huge undertaking in terms of equipment and learning curve along with everything else you're doing. You say "While I'm enjoying this...it is taking away from capturing photos and planning/thinking about creative ideas". Based on experience that problem will only get worse. The obvious and simple fact is that the more things you do the less time you have for each.
I'm used to situations where a gallery sells what they have on display. Once in a long while they may change a frame or a mat, or we might get a request to make a larger or smaller version of a certain print, but prints usually sell as-is straight off the wall. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, you will display prints with a varnished finish that are framed with no mat or glass, and these prints are only for display and not for sale. Oddly or not, I've never seen that situation. The mounting material wouldn't matter but I'd still be concerned about displaying anything that is visually different, or on different media, than what people will purchase.
Then there's your preferences. Like you I happen to prefer prints on smooth surfaced baryta paper or smooth surfaced (hot press) matte finished papers, and those papers are the only media I use. There's nothing wrong with cold press paper, metal, canvas, or any other media, but I'd rather use those papers. IMO signing and selling a print means it's 100% as you'd like it for yourself. I'd advise making what you are most happy making, and with a little luck the rest will follow.
Whatever you do, best of luck with it.
Thanks...prints on wall will be for sale as is...but I expect to mostly sell prints. And if I do sell mounted/framed prints...I'll outsource those parts.
Regardless, I've sorted this for this occasion. Just had a wholesaler mount the prints. And I'll frame them in a canvas floater...and varnish the print. I'll offer this and a bare print for purchase...or contact, discuss and quote for other desires. I'll also be offering bare prints at 1/2 size.
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F'me
The latest part of the saga!
Prints got dry mounted today.
Get home to inspect work
- rough edge trim. Not perfectly lined up with edge, so some white showing and inconsistent.
- under the right angle of light...scratched to crap. Almost looks like sandpaper or angle grinder (swirls) not visible from straight on, but if you look and move around it...it is obvious.
Phoned...guy was nice but not helpful.
Said that they change the blade...but guy had noticed the ink flaking. Didn't know about the scratches...suggested I apply the varnish and see how they turn out.
I'm pissed as 1) there is no way I can frame them in a canvas float frame...edge looks too sh!t
And scratches...can't put that up
Someone said they should be reimbursing me the print cost too. Fair bit of paper, ink and time.
No sure what I'm going to do...but I can't use these.
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Sorry to hear of your woes, TD. Alas, that's the kind of thing that prompts me to do everything print-related myself, outside of very conventional matting and framing. I do intend to explore dry mounting at some point, but have yet to invest in the Seal Dry Mount Press which is on my wish list.
Good luck in sorting out your next steps.
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Sorry to hear about the problems - I refuse to mount other peoples baryta prints - edge chipping can be a real nightmare with these papers, particularly if the images are full bleed. In fact, we very rarely take on mounting work for images which we have not printed, as if there is a problem, we re-run the work internally, there by avoiding the whole cost battle if things go wrong.
When we do mount baryta prints full bleed, we'll oversize the print by a couple of mm, mounting to substrate at final size, then trim with the print face down (on tissue, on a cutting matt) using a fresh scalpel blade for each edge! Trying to cut baryta and pvc at the same time is pretty much guaranteed to cause chipping and flaking.
One of the most robust, that we have found, of the baryta papers is the Innova Fiba Print Ultrasmooth Gloss (IFA49). Though this is still damned fragile...
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Sorry to hear about the problems - I refuse to mount other peoples baryta prints - edge chipping can be a real nightmare with these papers, particularly if the images are full bleed. In fact, we very rarely take on mounting work for images which we have not printed, as if there is a problem, we re-run the work internally, there by avoiding the whole cost battle if things go wrong.
When we do mount baryta prints full bleed, we'll oversize the print by a couple of mm, mounting to substrate at final size, then trim with the print face down (on tissue, on a cutting matt) using a fresh scalpel blade for each edge! Trying to cut baryta and pvc at the same time is pretty much guaranteed to cause chipping and flaking.
One of the most robust, that we have found, of the baryta papers is the Innova Fiba Print Ultrasmooth Gloss (IFA49). Though this is still damned fragile...
It is still fair of me to ask for my money back? Correct? The face abrasions just seem wrong.
I offered them a sample and they refused, say they did heaps of this stuff and there shouldn't be an issue.
I won't seek print costs...even though I feel out of pocket on this. Over ~6 meters of 40cm tall panos
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When we do mount baryta prints full bleed, we'll oversize the print by a couple of mm, mounting to substrate at final size, then trim with the print face down (on tissue, on a cutting matt) using a fresh scalpel blade for each edge! Trying to cut baryta and pvc at the same time is pretty much guaranteed to cause chipping and flaking.
Thanks for this! Earlier I started a thread about mounting baryta prints to MDF, and this sounds like excellent advice. (And apologies - I don't want to derail this thread).
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Thanks for this! Earlier I started a thread about mounting baryta prints to MDF, and this sounds like excellent advice. (And apologies - I don't want to derail this thread).
I saw your thread and was just about to point you here.
This has turned slightly nightmarish for me
I'm re-printing over 6 meters of panoramas and having to sort another option as I don't have time or money anymore to experiment/in this case waste.
I'm going to go with thin metal frames (easy, look decent and reasonable)...going to plexi and mat. Not how I wanted it to go...I'll try and figure out the gatorboard and frame in a canvas float frame later. On a small print with no time constraints or using as sales pieces in show .
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I hope you got a refund.
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The floater frame for the gator mount may not have been the best solution, as you will see the rough edge, unless you try to flush mount inside the floater, and that's not the look most want from a floater, you want to have a bit of gap. Floaters are mainly used for canvas, thus you can see the wrap around the edges, at least the floaters I have worked with.
Part of the problem you may have had, or the framer is that they were cutting the print on top of gator. I have used Platine this way but not had any issues with edge flaking. But gator is not very forgiving. Foam core will probably allow for a less damaging cut. But again with a floater frame, you will see the edge.
With the prints you have mounted, you could consider a frame either wood or metal (metal is not always the cheapest), but wood frames needs to be joined and then you need a tool to mount the print into the frame like the Fletcher gun. Metal, you can assemble with no extra tools. All frames, should have enough edge to cover the rough edge of your cuts, not sure how big or long the scratches are from the edge but they might stick out from the edge.
You could also consider printing on an RC paper, since you were not considering glass (if a float frame was being used). The RC papers are a bit more durable and scratch resistant. Epson, Ilford both have several good ones. The surface will be more durable than the Baryta.
Just some thoughts for the future.
Paul
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The floater frame for the gator mount may not have been the best solution, as you will see the rough edge, unless you try to flush mount inside the floater, and that's not the look most want from a floater, you want to have a bit of gap. Floaters are mainly used for canvas, thus you can see the wrap around the edges, at least the floaters I have worked with.
Part of the problem you may have had, or the framer is that they were cutting the print on top of gator. I have used Platine this way but not had any issues with edge flaking. But gator is not very forgiving. Foam core will probably allow for a less damaging cut. But again with a floater frame, you will see the edge.
With the prints you have mounted, you could consider a frame either wood or metal (metal is not always the cheapest), but wood frames needs to be joined and then you need a tool to mount the print into the frame like the Fletcher gun. Metal, you can assemble with no extra tools. All frames, should have enough edge to cover the rough edge of your cuts, not sure how big or long the scratches are from the edge but they might stick out from the edge.
You could also consider printing on an RC paper, since you were not considering glass (if a float frame was being used). The RC papers are a bit more durable and scratch resistant. Epson, Ilford both have several good ones. The surface will be more durable than the Baryta.
Just some thoughts for the future.
Paul
Yes...a few good lessons learned. Which is a positive.
I've seen this done...not sure it was gator as a substrate. Had no idea the surface would be an issue, now I know.
I could live with the chipping, but they should have told me they had issues on pick-up...not leave me to discover it at home. Also once I saw how the edge would turn out...I knew even with a good cut the float wouldn't work and resigned to a thin metal frame...
But then I saw all the faint scratching that becomes evident in side lighting.
The real piss offs are
1) not telling me
2) not critically evaluating their work
3) not accepting the small sample print as a test...and by doing this the validated my concerns on the large production pieces in a bulk process...rather then small test and evaluate. They assured me they do heaps and there would be no issue. I brought sample pieces when I dropped it off and they dismissed the idea as unnecessary.
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Something like this is what I wanted.
http://www.posterjack.ca/gallerybox.php
I just wanted a black void of ~5mm and print flush or 1-2mm sunk
I've seen them (not from that company).
They where paper prints and edge was black.
Next time, when I figure out how to achieve
For now
Reprint-thin metal frame and plexi. Bummer
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You could also consider printing on an RC paper, since you were not considering glass (if a float frame was being used). The RC papers are a bit more durable and scratch resistant. Epson, Ilford both have several good ones. The surface will be more durable than the Baryta.
Paul, what about mounting RC? I seem to have read every opinion and its opposite on what will or won't stick, or cause puckering, or wrinkling...
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Paul, what about mounting RC? I seem to have read every opinion and its opposite on what will or won't stick, or cause puckering, or wrinkling...
RC in my experience will work fine with a dry mount with heat, like from a press. I would use Bingfang rag mount, as I like the extra thickness of the material. RC will often pull back from a spray mount over time if you mount by hand, but if you combine RC, spray mount and then a press, odds are it will hold.
It's hard to beat a press, just the best way to mount a print.
Paul
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You just need to be very careful with the amount of heat of the press. RC papers can easily warp and melt under heat. I use my dry mount press for flattening prints all the time and I'm very reluctant to put rc material in it if I can help it. With fiber gloss and matt media dry mounting is a breeze and probably the most permanent adhesion you can find.
john