Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: dreed on August 21, 2015, 09:48:06 am
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Great review and writing... except that what is the "42.3mm BSI sensor" ? ;)
“Since the start of the digital era, I marry my lenses, but I only date my cameras“. This may in fact become a major factor in the photographic marketplace in the months and years ahead. If one buys quality glass, this is a long-term commitment; one not easily changed out. But of one can now change camera brands at will, this is a sea change which the industry has yet to assimilate into its thinking."
Will Canon and Nikon be comfortable knowing that selling lenses no longer requires selling a camera? Sure it is sales and money is money, but wouldn't those companies prefer to sell cameras to go with those lenses?
Yes, the A7RII is a truly disruptive camera. Will it force until Canon and Nikon to adopt mirrorless and abando mirror slappers so that they can return to building "defendable" lock-in systems? At present I think we're at a rare point in digital camera history where it is possible to change camera brands at will.
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Also, per Michael's review - the camera does have an audio jack, and using a Mini Female to XLR allows you to add a boom mic without having to pay $800. I rent a package with the adapter and Sennheiser MKh50 for $25/day.
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Minor typo :
"A Comment on Lenses
It used to be that Sony’s E-mount week spot was their lens availability."
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Indeed an excellent report. Informative and exciting. Possibly enough to cause me to abandon my nearly two-decades-long marriage to Nikon.
Interesting to me was Chris' choice of location for the presentation. Normally, cameramen avoid hot backgrounds like the plague. Whatever combination of camera hardware and fill light he used, the result is extraordinary. Chris, have you bought an Amira? :)
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i'm still digesting the report and have not yet finished the video but I have to ask, where was that lovely shot taken that appears first under the video. The combination of colors in the mountains and the sky along with the cloud in the top center are great!!
Kevin in CT
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What are thoughts about the lossy-compressed RAW format Sony uses for these A7 cameras? Any concerns? I prefer Nikon's lossless uncompressed RAWs but I'd love to see a side by side comparison of files or large prints from the two.
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Patrick,
Lots of talk about the Sony A7r II RAW format. We know SONY has heard the message loud and clear. Let's see if they do anything about it. Frankly I haven't run into any issues with the RAWs from the a7r II so far and I have been shooting a lot. Just really amazing files seems to be what I see. I use C1 to process my RAWs. Michael uses LR and I haven't heard him say anything negative. There are reports out there though about issues. Not sure if that is a result of the RAW files or a RAW processor. I certainly wouldn't let it hold you off from purchasing the camera. It really does deliver.
Kevin Raber
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Thank you, Kevin! I am on the cusp of a decision ... upgrade from the D800 to D810 and invest in some new Nikon glass (or Zeiss w/Nikon mount) or go this way. The Sony 90mm macro sounds outstanding. My main lens (>50% of what I shoot with) is the 24-70, and I've read the Sony version isn't all that compared to the Nikon (which is being updated very soon to one with VR/IS). I am a jack of all trades shooter (docu/street/landscape/people/nature/etc) so the 24-70 is perfect, though I like primes too. Lots to consider. I love the idea of having the A7s for night and video too and having the lenses for that and the A7RII, and an EVF is certainly an asset at times. If I only shot wildlife and sports I'd stay with Nikon for sure, for now. Oh, a pal who's a Sony guy (Paul Gero) shoots portraits for a living and says the eye-tracking AF is amazing ...really an asset.
#thanks
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What can I tell you? I sold all my Nikon gear and I had a bunch. No regrets. The 24-70 Sony lens is not that bad. The 16-35 is very good. 70-200 outstanding. I am totally hooked on Sony. I will admit that last night though I captured some real nice stuff with the Olympus. I prepping an article on the whole Olympus system. And, I still love my Fuji and wouldn't be surprised to see more from this year. Lots of choices these days.
Kevin
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I certainly wouldn't let it hold you off from purchasing the camera. It really does deliver.
At this point the only thing holding me up is camera availability. As soon as camera stores close to me get stock, it is all gone. Whilst I could go on a waiting list, I'd like to try it out in store before committing.
As an example of "lack of stock", stores do not keep a demo camera in the case/window (unlike a couple of DSLRs that have more MP.)
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Does the AR72 have any sort of sRaw ability? I don't see it listed so assume not....
Thanks
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Thanks Michael and Kevin for the video Discussing the Sony a7r II and thanks Michael for the interesting review.
I agree very much with the comment in the video about people hanging their hat on one single argument about the Raw file bit count. I use the A7R and I'm very critical pixel pepper and I tell you no problems with that.
The only thing that I noticed against the Nikon D800's series is that when you turn the highlights recovery slider on ARC way too much, you get like a halo in the transition between the dark and the light side. Other than that it is way better than any DSLR out there, and when I say better I mean versatility + file quality.
I use the A7R like I said and just have tried a few RAW files from the A7RII. I cannot say about the handling or the IBIS stability but I guess it helps a lot.
Well that said, thanks for this review. By the way I like the the PZ 28-135mm image of the wheat filed very much. Look to have a nice bokeh.
ACH
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Also, per Michael's review - the camera does have an audio jack, and using a Mini Female to XLR allows you to add a boom mic without having to pay $800. I rent a package with the adapter and Sennheiser MKh50 for $25/day.
My error, left over from an early draft.
Applogies.
Michael
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i'm still digesting the report and have not yet finished the video but I have to ask, where was that lovely shot taken that appears first under the video. The combination of colors in the mountains and the sky along with the cloud in the top center are great!!
Kevin in CT
Taken from the lodge at about the 6000 foot level of Mount Hood.
Michael
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Can you comment on any over heating issues with the camera? There seems to be a lot of discussion that it will only run for a limited time before automatically shutting down when shooting 4K video.
Thanks!
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I read about it, but not seen it myself.
I suspect it could happen when shooting long (more than 10 minute) video sequences in very warm weather.
Since few things that I shoot last more than about 30 seconds to 1 minute per take, it hasn't been part of my experience. I suppose that an outdoor interview might do it, like the ones that we do. But the camera hasn't been subjected to this yet by us.
Michael
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<snip> I am totally hooked on Sony. I will admit that last night though I captured some real nice stuff with the Olympus. I prepping an article on the whole Olympus system. And, I still love my Fuji and wouldn't be surprised to see more from this year. Lots of choices these days.
Kevin
Indeed, lots of choices. In the film days, the only choices really involved acceptable image quality, and for most of us, that meant a 35mm system. Now, there's a whole range of cameras, all providing excellent image quality, only some more excellent than others. I have a D800, which I hardly use any more, because I like the size and weight of the Panasonic m4/3 system, and the Panny quality is good enough for my purposes. By the way, I've been waiting to pounce on the Panasonic GX8, but the release date has now been delayed twice, from mid-August to late August and now to Sept. 7. Hope there's not an issue...
Michael devoted some of his review to Sony history and its aggressiveness; I would point out that it also has a history of losing its way. For example, they were pioneers in high-end TVs, home movie players and portable music players, and were quickly run over by competitors. I think what happens is that it's such a huge and diverse company that the upper management loses its focus on a product, and it's left to languish. Will that happen with cameras? We'll see.
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Excellent article. I only one one thing to point in the dynamic range debate:
"As for dynamic range, both cameras appear comparable in the shadow areas while the Sony has about a stop more recoverable in the highlight end".
When shooting RAW there is no such thing as cameras good in the shadow areas and good in the highlights. There are simply cameras with more or less total dynamic range. Should the Pentax RAW file had been shot at one stop lower ISO (same aperture/shutter) and the highlights would have been the same with increased shadow noise.
Effective ISO gain is arbitrarily set by camera vendors. This makes RAW highlight headroom from camera metering to sensor saturation also an arbitrary value, independent from sensor's total dynamic range.
Regards
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Excellent article. I only one one thing to point in the dynamic range debate:
"As for dynamic range, both cameras appear comparable in the shadow areas while the Sony has about a stop more recoverable in the highlight end".
When shooting RAW there is no such thing as cameras good in the shadow areas and good in the highlights. There are simply cameras with more or less total dynamic range. Should the Pentax RAW file had been shot at one stop lower ISO (same aperture/shutter) and the highlights would have been the same with increased shadow noise.
Effective ISO gain is arbitrarily set by camera vendors. This makes RAW highlight headroom from camera metering to sensor saturation also an arbitrary value, independent from sensor's total dynamic range.
Regards
Understood. But people think in terms of available highlight and shadow detail.
The take-away is that the A7rii has a bit more overall DR.
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Would be much more interesting to compare with a wide, like the new Batis 25/2, against the medium format. 90mm is a sweet spot for the often problematic and picky Sony sensors, with their thick covers. UWA and WA performance has been the issue since the introduction of the series. Still a problem.
Even on the r2 the WATE is the best UWA option, and it does not reach the level of best UWA on Canikon or Leica. The 1635 is very very close to the WATE.
With Kolari mod on the earlier models, it's much better.
A landscape camera which is meh UWA is like......boys without girls ;) I sent my original A7r back for this reason, and now use a Kolari A7 as back to Leica. Hype me once, shame on me. Hype me twice: not happening. :)
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Would you be able to test and comment on the long exposure hot pixel/noise issue? I am very interested in this camera but like to do 5-7 minute LEs and have read that anything over 30 seconds results in an unusable file due to noise or hot pixels.
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Hi Michael
Thanks for this review and this site!
I am a long time reader and like your non-nonsense approach.
I own a Sony Nex 7 and A7R.
I have used them a lot with success with older manual focus lenses and Canon EF lenses (my main system is Canon).
While there is indeed a lot of things to like, there are also several things I dislike with those Sony camera, and I am interested to know your experience:
- sensor dust and stains: with 18mm flange to sensor distance and an always open shutter, the sensor is much more exposed to dust and stains. This turns into a real problem when you use primes and often swap lenses.
I wonder if Sony could find a workaround (closing the shutter during lens swap? )
- LCD screen degradation with time. I used both camera for traveling and daily use and I soon had some non uniform LCD stains on both camera.
On A7R it was replaced under warranty after just 1 year.
This questions the durability of the camera for me.
Could be bad luck... What is your experience?
- As you said, limitations of what you can map to which button. And this even differs from play mode to shooing mode (zoom is an example)
- vertical grip ergonomics (especially with manual lenses) is weak (if you compare to the competition) in vertical mode. Commands are located very differently in both otientations and I often touch vertical shutter when I zoom in image to tune manual focus. ...which closes the zoom.
I then have to switch the vertical shutter off...
Do you experience those issues too?
Have a good day
Raoul
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at least Sony has provided a viable migration path for those with large A-mount lens investments.
Really? A camera costing £2600 to get IBIS for A mount lenses
Point being that I can put my A mount lenses on any mirrorless body not just Sony
I would argue that investing in E mount lenses (or any other native ILC format) is money down the drain for most you can't use them anywhere else
The appeal of ILC's is it's flexibility that same advantage also makes buying native mount lenses a poor choice for longer term use
I've no idea what will happen with A mount but down the road I'd expect E mount to go away too. Makers that change mounts suffer longer term Olympus still evokes an angry response from many they dumped 2 mounts
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Thanks for the video. It’s my experience that people who dedicated their lives to searching and discovering flaws in what are beautiful tools for doing photography, going to extraordinary lengths, filling up the Internet closets, have never discovered the joy and assets of photography. The fact that they actually manifest in self-explaining way.
One thing is certain though, and that the photography won’t die from a lossy compression or from a softer corner wide open when focused at infinity. It can however die fairly easy without the videos, articles done by photographers and of course their presence and work.
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Great review and writing... except that what is the "42.3mm BSI sensor" ? ;)
“Since the start of the digital era, I marry my lenses, but I only date my cameras“. This may in fact become a major factor in the photographic marketplace in the months and years ahead. If one buys quality glass, this is a long-term commitment; one not easily changed out. But of one can now change camera brands at will, this is a sea change which the industry has yet to assimilate into its thinking."
Will Canon and Nikon be comfortable knowing that selling lenses no longer requires selling a camera? Sure it is sales and money is money, but wouldn't those companies prefer to sell cameras to go with those lenses?
Yes, the A7RII is a truly disruptive camera. Will it force until Canon and Nikon to adopt mirrorless and abando mirror slappers so that they can return to building "defendable" lock-in systems? At present I think we're at a rare point in digital camera history where it is possible to change camera brands at will.
I too thought that glass was forever, but in reality it isn't—lenses, like camera bodies are not immune to technological progress.
As far as Canon and Nikon are concerned, their fear should come, not in selling bodies, but in possibly becoming irrelevent. The A7RII can be a highly effective trojan horse that initially augments a Canikon shooter's tool bag and then, over time, completely displaces the legacy system.
The A7RII, as Michael has sated, could be a truly universal camera!
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"I've no idea what will happen with A mount but down the road I'd expect E mount to go away too."
Does "down the road" mean 2-5 years, or 10 years or more?
If the later, you may be right. Nothing is forever, especially in an industry changing as rapidly as digital imaging. But I would put real money on Sony hanging its hat on the FE mount for at least the next half decade, and likely longer.
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Makers that change mounts suffer longer term
Like FD -> EF ?
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...Interesting to me was Chris' choice of location for the presentation. Normally, cameramen avoid hot backgrounds like the plague. Whatever combination of camera hardware and fill light he used, the result is extraordinary. Chris, have you bought an Amira? :)
I wish!... but no just the trusty Panny GH4 and serendipitous fill from a car in the car park opposite. If I take away one thing from the blown bg, it is is that if you are going to let something blowout, it is better to have it completely, all-channels, irretrievably blown ;D
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"I've no idea what will happen with A mount but down the road I'd expect E mount to go away too."
Does "down the road" mean 2-5 years, or 10 years or more?
If the later, you may be right. Nothing is forever, especially in an industry changing as rapidly as digital imaging. But I would put real money on Sony hanging its hat on the FE mount for at least the next half decade, and likely longer.
Well credit for trying (asking the question) But it's a bit like politicians you'll never get a straight answer from them, I just wish Sony would "man up" and be honest with users; but it's possible they don't even know themselves.
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Thanks for the useful, concise and thorough review. I'm a long time Canon user and have been shooting with the A7RII for about a week with Sony's low end 24-240 zoom and the Metabones Mark 4 adapter with my collection of L series lenses. It's like shooting left handed at first getting used to the Sony layout and way of thinking. But I'm happy and a little surprised to say that they system is very responsive and well laid out even for my pudgy hands. I shoot a 1DX and a lot of martial arts competitions and I was hot for the silent shutter - it rocks BTW. Now it doesn't sound like a migration of locusts when I'm shooting. Anyway, I mention this because the rep insisted that the stills are true 14bit UNLESS you use the silent shutter and ONLY THEN are they 12 bit. Is it true that they are all what you term "quasi 12 bit" ? Was I spun a line ? Not that the human eye can even tell, anyway... :) Thanks Again, m
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Very nice review Michael, I'm sure it was tough to cover all the bases in a reasonable length.
"My first gripe is with the locking Mode dial. It is not possible to change the shooting mode unless the center button of the dial is depressed and held in while turning the knob. Who at Sony thought that this was a good idea?"
Certainly no one who owned an old Canon A2. They had the same brilliant idea back in the '90s. Mine went in for repair twice because of that awful design.
I'm curious what additional custom functions you would like to see programable. For me I wish "Format card" was available. I'd program that to C4. Kinda matches the icon too.
Oh, BTW, can I buy you a second bookcase?
😎
Dave
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"I've no idea what will happen with A mount but down the road I'd expect E mount to go away too."
Does "down the road" mean 2-5 years, or 10 years or more?
If the later, you may be right. Nothing is forever, especially in an industry changing as rapidly as digital imaging. But I would put real money on Sony hanging its hat on the FE mount for at least the next half decade, and likely longer.
Nice review. Kudos!
Re the longevity of a lens system... I bet it has to last way more than 10 years to survive (as a system) in the marketplace. Lenses are not throwaway electronics. There are superb lenses made 40/50 years ago still superb performers. Coatings have changed but lens design was very good long ago - Zeiss for sure.
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Very nice review Michael, I'm sure it was tough to cover all the bases in a reasonable length.
"My first gripe is with the locking Mode dial. It is not possible to change the shooting mode unless the center button of the dial is depressed and held in while turning the knob. Who at Sony thought that this was a good idea?"
Certainly no one who owned an old Canon A2. They had the same brilliant idea back in the '90s. Mine went in for repair twice because of that awful design.
I'm curious what additional custom functions you would like to see programable. For me I wish "Format card" was available. I'd program that to C4. Kinda matches the icon too.
Oh, BTW, can I buy you a second bookcase?
😎
Dave
All later Canons like the 5D III, 5Ds, 7D, 7DII has the lock in the center og the program dial. You need to push to turn it. I think it works very well and don't see the problem with that. On the contrary the old design without it on the Canon the program dial could easily be turned when taking the camera out of the camera bag. This happened quite often with my old 5D.
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Reading the review on this camera is like on dpreview.com. I have a distinct feeling that the reviewers talk like salesmen from Sony. I still remember the very positive reviews coming out on the A7R and the issues with the shutter shock was strongly dismissed as not a problem here on LuLa. Now later on with the A7R II Sony is praised by the same people to have solved the shutter shock problem, huh? Sony never acknowledged there was a shutter shock problem so why is it that the shutter was totally redesigned and EFCS was introduced? Sony never tried to at least diminish the problem for A7R owners. I'm sorry to say this sucks. I'm not impressed by a company acting this way. I'm not saying that all other companies are totally different. It took Canon some hard beating to acknowledge the AF problems with the Canon 1D III and for Nikon to admit the oil problems on the D600. After these blunders both Canon and Nikon are quite quick to solve any problems. Their service organisations are excellent. How about Sony?
These reviews leaves me with a distinct feeling that there are issues that a balanced and critical review will reveal that is not revealed. Regarding the RAW format, do you really believe that Sony will solve this issue with the A7R II? What if this is not only in firmware but a part of how the hardware works? Then a firmware update cannot solve the issue. Trying to ridicule people who don't like this is not worthy of a reviewer. Making comments relative to Canon and Nikon without a hands on review of these cameras is not very professional in my opinion.
Having said that I do understand that grown up men become like boys having new toys for their reviews ;D
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All later Canons like the 5D III, 5Ds, 7D, 7DII has the lock in the center og the program dial. You need to push to turn it. I think it works very well and don't see the problem with that. On the contrary the old design without it on the Canon the program dial could easily be turned when taking the camera out of the camera bag. This happened quite often with my old 5D.
Hans,
I get it on the Canon design where the mode dial sticks up on the left with nothing around it. Same was true with the old A2 so I admit my comment above is little more than a misguided rant. However, on this camera I agree with Michael. The mode dial is well-protected and I don't ever remember having a problem on the a7r.* It just makes the camera more fiddly. Next week I am headed to the Mount Blanc massif for some fun in the mountains. One of the things I've been practicing is changing that dial with one hand. It's actually possible if you press the button with your forefinger and rotate the dial with your thumb. But with gloves on it is hit or miss.
Dave
Edit: I do note the dial in these new 7's is a little bigger in both height and diameter. Perhaps people reported issues with this larger dial moving on its own. But I haven't heard that anywhere.
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About Hans Kruse's comment:
I appreciate Michael's reviews and I'm sure he does them honestly.
And I do especially appreciate that he actually uses (some) camera to take actual pictures.
That's not what most reviewers do.
The point for me is: Michael, you change camera once or twice a year!
As you said, you just "date" your camera.
On my side, I'd like to change only every 5 or so years.
It's not just a matter of money (well, it is too), it's also that learning a new tool takes time
and when you're not a pro it take months to get the maximum out of it.
That was my point with my previous comment (and the reason I asked Michael for a feedback):
You have the technology -which is brilliant and evolves through fixing some issues which each new model (why not all?)- and then you have the day to day usability and reliability.
Utlimately, I need BOTH technology, usability and reliability to rely on a camera, to be comfortable enough I can rely on it, and then to use for my day to day use.
The few issues I listed are the kind of issues that don't make me feel comfortable.
And this gives me a mixed feeling about the A7R, and Sony camera in general.
There will still be a long way, in my opinion, before Sony will be able to build that confidence.
It's not a matter of technology only, it's a matter of company mindset.
This mindset leads to techological choices, marketing choices (No battery loader in the box? Come on! And, as Hans said: why to Replace model every year without bother to fix issues on previous model at all?) and organisation (/support) choices.
I'm afraid Sony still has a long way to go. If I wanted to be rude, I'd say they look still too much "Tech snob oriented" for my taste.
(You may count me as one "tech snob" somehow. I like new techs. But this is not enough a reason by itself for compromises when I choose a tool for day to day usage.)
Yes I appreciate the technological advances in those camera.
And, yes, I'm also convinced that EVF is the way for the future.
But at the end, I prefer to buy a Canon (or a Nikon, that's not the point) where I know by experience that -except in case of an accident- it will not let me down in the next 3 years.
Even if it's bigger, heavier, has no electronic viewfinder with focus magnification in, can't mount my older (Canon FD) lenses and, for Canon, has less dynamic range (yes, that's a true limitation for me).
And yes, that's frustrating.
For sure, this is based on my own experience only. And I'm in no way a pro photographer.
Just somebody shooting pictures regularly since 35 years.
But is that only me?
What to do to convince Sony to change mindset and to propose products that actually inspire prise AND confidence?
(Or maybe that's me who should change mindset, and accept that I have to switch to a "smartphone-like" mindset, where we replace a camera each 2 years, because the battery is dead and there is no way to replace it. Is it where the hi-end camera market is going ?)
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Just a passing thought....
Watch for a review from me this week of a new camera from one of the world's oldest and most respected makers.
"What to do to convince Sony to change mindset and to propose products that actually inspire prise AND confidence?" This may not ring quite so loudly once that report is read.
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I haven't been in the loop. Does the A7RII or any other modern camera accept Leica R and M lenses?
Thanks,
Mitchell
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I haven't been in the loop. Does the A7RII or any other modern camera accept Leica R and M lenses?
Dumb adapters from many sources and with varying levels of quality are available for most SLR lenses and for M lenses. SLR lenses usually work well assuming you're comfortable with completely manual operation; several M lenses suffer from the angle-of-incidence woes that made a digital M camera difficult to make.
Smart adapters are available for Canon EF-mount lenses that operate the diaphragm and AF with varying degrees of success. A smart adapter for Nikon AF lenses is supposedly in the pipeline.
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I haven't been in the loop. Does the A7RII or any other modern camera accept Leica R and M lenses?
Thanks,
Mitchell
Yes. For the most part R lenses are very good on the A7 series. M lenses depend; in general 35mm and wider are questionable because the corners smear due to the A7's thick cover glass, with a few exceptions. For example the WATE is quite good. Longer M lenses are very good.
Dave
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Thanks for the review Michael.
I find Sony a really an interesting company that seems to be innovating more than anyone else.
I picked up an RX100m4 the other day and have been very impressed. What really surprised me though was the quality of the construction of the body (with the exception of the small fiddly controls on the back). Also the ability to pick up the camera and just shoot with it.
I owned a NEX-7 when it first came out, loved the tri-navi system, hated the menu, hated the lack of customizability.
The one thing that always drove me crazy about the Sony cameras though is the fact that you can't set a button to cycle through the LCD and EVF.
You also cannot set the EVF to permanently on.
Proximity sensors on any camera have always been much too slow to switch the EVF on for the type of work that I do which is all candid quick documentary and street photography.
If Sony just allowed you to set a custom function button to cycle through; EVF on, EVF/LCD autoswitch (with proximity sensor), LCD on, I'd seriously consider ditching my micro 4/3 and Fuji gear.
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UWA and WA performance has been the issue since the introduction of the series. Still a problem.
This is true of lenses, such as those designed for Leica M cameras, with exit pupils relatively close to the sensor. Not an issue with SLR lenses. Nor is it a fault per se, rather just a design choice that happens to degrade image quality if you insist on using (most) wide rangefinder camera lenses on A7x cameras. Don't do that. ;)
-Dave-
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Hi,
It is possible to replace the "cover glass" with thinner glass. Not exactly cheap, but doable.
Best regards
Erik
This is true of lenses, such as those designed for Leica M cameras, with exit pupils relatively close to the sensor. Not an issue with SLR lenses. Nor is it a fault per se, rather just a design choice that happens to degrade image quality if you insist on using (most) wide rangefinder camera lenses on A7x cameras. Don't do that. ;)
-Dave-
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The one thing that always drove me crazy about the Sony cameras though is the fact that you can't set a button to cycle through the LCD and EVF.
You also cannot set the EVF to permanently on.
I can set the a7II to EVF only, LCD only, or automatic switching.
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The one thing that always drove me crazy about the Sony cameras though is the fact that you can't set a button to cycle through the LCD and EVF.
You also cannot set the EVF to permanently on.
Proximity sensors on any camera have always been much too slow to switch the EVF on for the type of work that I do which is all candid quick documentary and street photography.
For 2 or 3 years I've had my Sony α35 display camera settings on the LCD and then automatically switch to display the scene in the EVF.
You've made me realize that I know how I use the camera very well now: I don't need to see those camera settings on the LCD; I can just "set the EVF to permanently on" and have the LCD switched-off.
So thanks for complaining! ;-)
Incidentally, the NEX-7 manual does talk about a "FINDER/LCD Setting" in the "Shooting Settings" menu, page 35 --
Sets how to switch between the viewfinder and the LCD monitor. (Auto/Viewfinder/LCD Monitor)
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Making comments relative to Canon and Nikon without a hands on review of these cameras is not very professional in my opinion.
Having said that I do understand that grown up men become like boys having new toys for their reviews ;D
Hi Hans, If I remember well the same happened 10 years/ 6 years ago, when Canon was dominating the market , and they did for many years. Nothing new... As working tool, the Canon has my attention too, looks a great camera to work with, and the results I saw on the web look fantastic. As for me its an investment for 5--6 years again, so I will follow the reviews on both cameras and probably try them at a shop later to get the feel they give me. Also wonder what Nikon will come up now. Interesting times again... As an intermediate I bought a Fuji, its a really nice thing, but it feels small in my hands to work with a for long period. Maybe a keeper for shooting more anonymously.
Personally I like these a ' just bit less scientific" ;D reviews, from enthusiastic but real photographers (real people) with lot of experience, and yes, as all enthusiastic people they have there own preferences. Nice.
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@Isaac
You are right about the NEX-7 being able to set Finder/LCD setting. The problem here is twofold; that you can't set a button to cycle through (similar to Olympus, Panasonic, Samsung, and Fuji offerings), and that even when the LCD is set to 'on' it remains off until the proximity sensor is activated. This creates a delay for the EVF to activate when you bring the camera to your eye.
@wildlightphoto
As I mentioned to Isaac above, the complaint is twofold. One; you can't set a button cycle through options, so you have to dive into the menu every time you want to switch. Two; that even when the LCD is set to 'on' it remains off until the proximity sensor is activated. This creates a delay for the EVF to activate when you bring the camera to your eye. For the type of work I sometimes do, this 1/2 second difference (when the proximity sensor is activating EVF) can make you miss the shot.
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Anyway, I mention this because the rep insisted that the stills are true 14bit UNLESS you use the silent shutter and ONLY THEN are they 12 bit. Is it true that they are all what you term "quasi 12 bit" ? Was I spun a line ? Not that the human eye can even tell, anyway... :) Thanks Again, m
The review says regarding the 12-bit / 14-bit issue: "Is this issue real? Yes it is, and a senior Sony executive from Japan has stated that it is being looked into. But in the meantime, the sky isn’t falling, and I for one am not giving this a moment’s further thought as I shoot with my Sony A7II and new A7RII."
It seems to me that Sony's intransigence or hesitation on this issue is misplaced. They can say that the difference is de minimus -- and it may be -- but from a marketing perspective and what customers might want, it may not be de minimus. It's hard to image that Sony can't, technically, do 14-bit, or that the cost of doing it is prohibitive. So why not just do it and eliminate it as an issue, and eliminate it as a barrier to sales to a significant segment of the market? What's the problem with just doing it?
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The problem here is twofold; that you can't set a button to cycle through (similar to Olympus, Panasonic, Samsung, and Fuji offerings), and that even when the LCD is set to 'on' it remains off until the proximity sensor is activated. This creates a delay for the EVF to activate when you bring the camera to your eye.
1) Camera makers just can't please everyone -- my Sony α35 does have a dedicated button to switch between EVF / rear LCD and I have covered over the button with black tape (I've pretty much forgotten that the EVF/LCD, MOVIE, and D-RANGE buttons exist, now that they are hidden by tape.)
2) Now that I have "set the EVF to permanently on" the EVF stays-on for as-long-as the "Power Save" setting allows (as-long-as 30 minutes).
After "Power Save" starts, for "candid quick documentary" (mine are usually at dinner parties and parties in people's homes) a half-press of the shutter button will waken the camera to "shooting mode" and turn the EVF on -- before I raise the camera to my eye.
Again, thanks for complaining, this new set-up is going to work well for me!
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Thank you Michael and thank you Kevin for the "good stuff" on this camera and the Batis lenses. It's very curious that Sony prevented any significant pre-launch testing by you guys (and others) but hey-ho maybe this is the new post Canikon order?
I got my suite of lenses and my A7RM2 before these reviews were published - a first for me as I have come to rely on LuLa's good analysis of new products. I have read the extensive "nit-picking" and "I told you so's" and also the euphoric " a new age has dawned" and it is in my opinion all bunkum.
Is this camera and are these lenses perfect? No they are not. Are the better than my D810 and my Hasselblad - not significantly IMO. Have I sold my Nikon - you bet. Have I sold my Hasselblad - no way. It's horses for courses. In 35mm I want a light as possible portable system that can produce great images (and certainly much better than my skills can produce). I want to use autofocus that gets me a higher percentage of potential keepers. I want high quality Zeiss glass without having to use manual focus. I don't want to use a tripod unless I really have to. This camera and the Zeiss lenses tick all this boxes and it all sits in a bag that I can actually carry. In MFD I want really good skin tones and that certain something that I cannot quantify about MFD images.
Sony may not be perfect but they have really moved the game on - I have no regrets about moving and nearby pro friends have or are making the same decision.
Here is a handheld shot (Zeiss Batis 85mm 1/80 at f8 ISO 400).
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The video review is really interesting; thanks. There is one point I may have missed and am unsure how to interpret the user manual on the Sony website. Is it possible to turn off the IBIS when taking images of fast moving wildlife when using very short exposures, e.g. 1/1000 sec or less?
Jonathan
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Is it possible to turn off the IBIS when taking images of fast moving wildlife when using very short exposures, e.g. 1/1000 sec or less?
You can turn IBIS off…but there's no shutter speed threshold you can set above which it'll auto shut off. Not a bad idea, though…
-Dave-
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Hi Hans,
DPreview does a good job reviewing cameras, IMHO. They walk trough features and, most importantly, post raw images. DPreview is a very useful resource.
The shutter shock is a real issue with the A7r, but more measurable than visible. It was a significant degradation of image quality to something like 24 MP level under some conditions. Those conditions were exactly the ones I shoot. Lack of EFCS was one of the main reasons I didn't buy the A7r. My immediate reaction was: "That's and old sensor with old technology I don't buy into it".
Folks shooting fast shutter speed, handheld, etc would not see double contours. Actually, I have never seen a sample from the A7r with double contours. Took some pixel peeping to observe it. But why buy a 36MP camera that produces 24MP images under my shooting conditions?
Regarding the raw compression it is twofold. First part is a tonal compression, a bit like a gamma curve. Several knowledgeable persons analysed it and the principle is basically sound. It is quite probable that this compression is applied in the ADCs before the signal processing ASICs, so I guess that he ASICs are optimised for 12 bits. In that case I don't think Sony will change this with a firmware update.
The second part is the delta compression. That should normally be lossless except in the presence of large gradients, like the star tracks image, in which case it will cause artefacts. I guess that can be removed with a simple firmware upgrade.
The folks here are not testers, like DPReview or ImagingResource, who follow a strict protocol. They are photographers sharing their experience and opinion. They may certainly be biased, but we mostly are just that. Following a stringent protocol can suppress bias. That said, neither DPReview nor Imaging Resource reported on the shutter related vibration and they don't have that problem on their studio shots. Lloyd Chambers reported it first.
Michael and Kevin like shooting with the A7II and now they got the A7rII, they are happy as kids with new playthings under the christmas tree.
Best regards
Erik
Ps. A "real engineer" has measured A7r vibration during the shutter release process and has found that the vibration was mostly produced by the release and breaking of the first shutter curtain. The second curtain caused similar vibration, but that happens in a part after the exposure. What this has shown was that Sony needed to redesign the shutter and no solution with a firmware update was possible.
Reading the review on this camera is like on dpreview.com. I have a distinct feeling that the reviewers talk like salesmen from Sony. I still remember the very positive reviews coming out on the A7R and the issues with the shutter shock was strongly dismissed as not a problem here on LuLa. Now later on with the A7R II Sony is praised by the same people to have solved the shutter shock problem, huh? Sony never acknowledged there was a shutter shock problem so why is it that the shutter was totally redesigned and EFCS was introduced? Sony never tried to at least diminish the problem for A7R owners. I'm sorry to say this sucks. I'm not impressed by a company acting this way. I'm not saying that all other companies are totally different. It took Canon some hard beating to acknowledge the AF problems with the Canon 1D III and for Nikon to admit the oil problems on the D600. After these blunders both Canon and Nikon are quite quick to solve any problems. Their service organisations are excellent. How about Sony?
These reviews leaves me with a distinct feeling that there are issues that a balanced and critical review will reveal that is not revealed. Regarding the RAW format, do you really believe that Sony will solve this issue with the A7R II? What if this is not only in firmware but a part of how the hardware works? Then a firmware update cannot solve the issue. Trying to ridicule people who don't like this is not worthy of a reviewer. Making comments relative to Canon and Nikon without a hands on review of these cameras is not very professional in my opinion.
Having said that I do understand that grown up men become like boys having new toys for their reviews ;D
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Hi Hans,
DPreview does a good job reviewing cameras, IMHO. They walk trough features and, most importantly, post raw images. DPreview is a very useful resource.
The shutter shock is a real issue with the A7r, but more measurable than visible. It was a significant degradation of image quality to something like 24 MP level under some conditions. Those conditions were exactly the ones I shoot. Lack of EFCS was one of the main reasons I didn't buy the A7r. My immediate reaction was: "That's and old sensor with old technology I don't buy into it".
Folks shooting fast shutter speed, handheld, etc would not see double contours. Actually, I have never seen a sample from the A7r with double contours. Took some pixel peeping to observe it. But why buy a 36MP camera that produces 24MP images under my shooting conditions?
Regarding the raw compression it is twofold. First part is a tonal compression, a bit like a gamma curve. Several knowledgeable persons analysed it and the principle is basically sound. It is quite probable that this compression is applied in the ADCs before the signal processing ASICs, so I guess that he ASICs are optimised for 12 bits. In that case I don't think Sony will change this with a firmware update.
The second part is the delta compression. That should normally be lossless except in the presence of large gradients, like the star tracks image, in which case it will cause artefacts. I guess that can be removed with a simple firmware upgrade.
The folks here are not testers, like DPReview or ImagingResource, who follow a strict protocol. They are photographers sharing their experience and opinion. They may certainly be biased, but we mostly are just that. Following a stringent protocol can suppress bias. That said, neither DPReview nor Imaging Resource reported on the shutter related vibration and they don't have that problem on their studio shots. Lloyd Chambers reported it first.
Michael and Kevin like shooting with the A7II and now they got the A7rII, they are happy as kids with new playthings under the christmas tree.
Best regards
Erik
Ps. A "real engineer" has measured A7r vibration during the shutter release process and has found that the vibration was mostly produced by the release and breaking of the first shutter curtain. The second curtain caused similar vibration, but that happens in a part after the exposure. What this has shown was that Sony needed to redesign the shutter and no solution with a firmware update was possible.
Thanks Erik, for the explanations and opinions :) Regarding the shutter shock of the A7R I do understand that it was easily overlooked and especially without a rigorous enough approach to testing. I assume the reviewers that did not spot has learned something from that experience. I assume the Sony engineers had also overlooked it... I question the comment on that Sony could not have done anything with a firmware update like giving the option of a delay in the closing of the first shutter before it opens again to start the exposure. I'm pretty sure that would have helped to cure the problem and maybe not entirely. Thom Hogan did discover the shutter shock issue and did not recommend the A7R http://www.sansmirror.com/cameras/a-note-about-camera-reviews/sony-nex-camera-reviews/sony-a7-and-a7r-review.html
On paper the new A7R II looks very good and that a lot of weaknesses and problems of previous models have been solved or at least appear to have been solved. First impressions which are still what we have at this point like Lloyd Chambers (although I don't subscribe i see his blog posts), dpreview and Imaging Resource. If all are excited I can understand that, but what I'm looking for is also the downsides and to what impact these might have. There is nothing wrong with being excited, of course :) In any case I'm waiting to see what the final verdicts are and what comes out later on.
I'm looking forward to see your A7R II in action in the Dolomites in late September. I'm currently shooting Canon 5DsR and D810. I have the Canon 16-35 f/4L IS, 24-70 f/2.8L II and 100-400 f/4.5-5.6L IS II and they all live up to the resolution of the 5DsR even fully open with only a tiny bit of softness in the corners. Stopped down to f/8 for landscapes they all are amazingly sharp. The D810 performs now very well with the EFCS and redesigned shutter compared to the D800E where I got slightly blurred shots sometimes. This does not happen with the D810. So for landscape photography I now have excellent tools. I might be tempted to get the Sony A7R II later on and especially if many of my workshop participants show up with the camera as I would like to know the details of the camera. So far I only had one Sony camera, the RX100 III which I sold again. Despite all the technology that is put into this camera, it is not (in my opinion) a great camera. It is way too slow and the zoom level drove me nuts. Design faults like shutting down the camera when you pop down the EVF is also beyond me. At least an option in the menus could have solved this I would think unless this also was hard wired into hardware. An enthusiast camera? No, so I sold it again. For snapshots my iPhone 6+ works great and for serious work my Canon and Nikons are dependable and great to work with.
Of course, as Michael and Kevin also points out, photography and getting great pictures does involve compromises and small technical faults may not impact the final image. The handling and robustness og a camera system is important to be able to act fast enough when the situation is there for great shots.
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Hi Hans, If I remember well the same happened 10 years/ 6 years ago, when Canon was dominating the market , and they did for many years. Nothing new... As working tool, the Canon has my attention too, looks a great camera to work with, and the results I saw on the web look fantastic. As for me its an investment for 5--6 years again, so I will follow the reviews on both cameras and probably try them at a shop later to get the feel they give me. Also wonder what Nikon will come up now. Interesting times again... As an intermediate I bought a Fuji, its a really nice thing, but it feels small in my hands to work with a for long period. Maybe a keeper for shooting more anonymously.
Personally I like these a ' just bit less scientific" ;D reviews, from enthusiastic but real photographers (real people) with lot of experience, and yes, as all enthusiastic people they have there own preferences. Nice.
Hi Hans, I don't think Canon has exactly gone out of the market :) They waited too long to respond to the high resolution of the D800 and some Canon shooters switched. If my workshops are any guide then what I saw a few Canon shooters changed to Nikon, a few also added a Sony A7(R). The absolute majority stayed with Canon or Nikon and I see only few cameras other than Canon and Nikon (like Hassy and Phase One, Olympus, Pentax, Panasonic and Sony). That's for landscape photography and that's where mirrorless should have been making inroads. So far not the case from what I see. I see as many MF cameras as Sony cameras. I now have the Canon 5DsR also and sold the 5D III. There were hundreds of preorders of 5Ds(R) in the shop in Copenhagen where I bought it. They had never seen anything like it before. Canon has made some amazing zoom lenses in the later years to go with the high resolution 5Ds(R). Nikon also has and are releasing new designs of lenses like the new 24-70 f/2.8 and the 70-200 f/4 VR is also quite new and very good (I use the D810 as well). So Canon and Nikon seems just to refine what they have been doing for years. For a reviewer that is not so sexy as e.g. the new mirrorless cameras. I don't think that either Canon or Nikon is going to give up the market to Sony. When they feel and have a mirrorless camera will will beat the DSLR's they will come out with that and I have no doubt about that. I'm sure they have such cameras in their labs. The bigger question is the destiny of still cameras.
I was not saying that I did not like the article, but I think I was saying that I did not feel this was a review. In my view a review does not have to be only a dry scientific one, but if I don't feel that they reviewers have really gone into the details then it is just an impressions report and nothing else. The fact that Michael had been invited for a 3 day event with Sony before did not swing me further into believing that the details had been scrutinized. The LuLa folks can do whatever they choose to do and they may even get more press by doing it this way ;D. I don't know about Kevin, but Michael always had a talent for reporting things in a way that ignited a lot of discussions, which is not a bad one to have!
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Now if Sony could just come out with a 70-200/2.8... (I don't like adapters), my Canon gear would go :)
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Hi Hans,
This image shows the camera vibrations recorded on an oscilloscope:
The full size image is here: http://www.kasson.com/ll/a7R_shutter_annotated.png
http://www.kasson.com/ll/a7R_shutter_annotated.png (http://www.kasson.com/ll/a7R_shutter_annotated.png)
What is quite obvious that the release of the first shutter curtain causes much more shake than the cocking process, at the end of exposure shake is almost zero. So, I don't think that adding a delay between cocking and release would have helped. God speculation but an erroneous one.
The guy who measured it used simple tools. A loudspeaker was used as a pickup with a roll of post it as actuator and plotting on an oscilloscope.
Full article is here: http://blog.kasson.com/?p=4459
Best regards
Erik
Thanks Erik, for the explanations and opinions :) Regarding the shutter shock of the A7R I do understand that it was easily overlooked and especially without a rigorous enough approach to testing. I assume the reviewers that did not spot has learned something from that experience. I assume the Sony engineers had also overlooked it... I question the comment on that Sony could not have done anything with a firmware update like giving the option of a delay in the closing of the first shutter before it opens again to start the exposure. I'm pretty sure that would have helped to cure the problem and maybe not entirely. Thom Hogan did discover the shutter shock issue and did not recommend the A7R http://www.sansmirror.com/cameras/a-note-about-camera-reviews/sony-nex-camera-reviews/sony-a7-and-a7r-review.html
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So, I don't think that adding a delay between cocking and release would have helped.
E-M1 does with delay = http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3651827 , was it something like 25ms ?
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This mindset leads to techological choices, marketing choices (No battery loader in the box? Come on! And, as Hans said: why to Replace model every year without bother to fix issues on previous model at all?) and organisation (/support) choices.
I'm afraid Sony still has a long way to go. If I wanted to be rude, I'd say they look still too much "Tech snob oriented" for my taste.
(You may count me as one "tech snob" somehow. I like new techs. But this is not enough a reason by itself for compromises when I choose a tool for day to day usage.)
FYI, although the original a7 series indeed did come without a battery charger and just the USB power supply that allowed to charge within the camera, the new a7R II does also include the battery charger in the package. So it seems Sony learned a lesson with this.
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Hi Hans,
This image shows the camera vibrations recorded on an oscilloscope:
The full size image is here: http://www.kasson.com/ll/a7R_shutter_annotated.png
http://www.kasson.com/ll/a7R_shutter_annotated.png (http://www.kasson.com/ll/a7R_shutter_annotated.png)
What is quite obvious that the release of the first shutter curtain causes much more shake than the cocking process, at the end of exposure shake is almost zero. So, I don't think that adding a delay between cocking and release would have helped. God speculation but an erroneous one.
The guy who measured it used simple t ;) ;)ools. A loudspeaker was used as a pickup with a roll of post it as actuator and plotting on an oscilloscope.
Full article is here: http://blog.kasson.com/?p=4459
Best regards
Erik
I noticed that the word think was used about if putting a delay in would not help. I can say this much: On my old Canon 1Ds III live view shooting behaved exactly like the Sony A7R and this generated vibrations for longer focal length that could easily be seen as blur. Using MLU did not generate this blur. So therefore I think that a delay actually would help an the A7R. How long the delay should be is another question. I'm not a major in physics or a mechanical engineer so I may be wrong, but to me it is logical that two movements like closing the shutter and immediately open it again will create much more vibrations that just opening the shutter, but I may be wrong and it would not be the first time ;)
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E-M1 does with delay = http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3651827 , was it something like 25ms ?
Exactly and I had this in mind as well. But since Sony did not do such a firmware update or if they couldn't because of the design of the shutter, we will not know for sure...
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Exactly and I had this in mind as well. But since Sony did not do such a firmware update or if they couldn't because of the design of the shutter, we will not know for sure...
Maybe. But certainly the data from the link and looking at the chart definitely shows the vibrations are pretty stable and at baseline after the 1st curtain is wound and the action of the first curtain firing and stopping cause the main vibration at the start of the exposure. sony engineers certainly had even better equipment to test with.
None of us a7r owners liked their answer that it wouldn't help, but to me it looks like they were being honest.
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I had a chance to try one out in store... mind you I was under time pressures..
The store did not have a Metabones III/IV adapter, only the Viltrox one. With the Sony lens on (24-70/f4), no problem. With the Viltrox + Canon 24-70/f4...
Focusing on a person, it could do easily.
Focusing on the shelf on the other side of the store (maybe 5m away), with lots of cameras and a backlit wall, it had a lot of trouble with.
That didn't concern me as much as...
The A7RII has no equivalent (that I was able to use with Canon lenses) to the contrast-detect AF feature on Canon cameras. This is a method where the joystick is used to move a box around the screen, do a digital zoom in (5x/10x) and press AF to focus. The closest Sony comes to that is "focus magnification" that only worked with manual focus which then relied on focus peaking to ensure you get your subject in focus. I'm not sure that would work for me.
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I'm intrigued by the logic of this. It seems to me that all the hardware and software needed to decide if the scene is focused or not lives in the body. All the link to the lens has to do is instruct it which way to move. So at the first level, if the camera can focus on a given scene with one lens, why should it not be able to do it with any other with equivalent aperture and the basic connections correct?
Agreed, when it comes to treating the lens camera system as an active negative feedback system to track focus, the speed of the communication and the lens movement becomes critical, but why should that be the case focusing on a shelf in a store?
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This is true of lenses, such as those designed for Leica M cameras, with exit pupils relatively close to the sensor. Not an issue with SLR lenses. Nor is it a fault per se, rather just a design choice that happens to degrade image quality if you insist on using (most) wide rangefinder camera lenses on A7x cameras. Don't do that. ;)
-Dave-
If you think SLR glass 35 and wider is "not and issue" you are just not looking closely at a proper landscape test. Certainly the sensor induced FC is more subtle, but it's there. The only way to go with these Sony A7 series is native glass if you are looking to rival a D810.
Sure you can slap anything on there and central frame will be fine. And closer shots may even seem very good outside the central frame. But hit infinity and the weirdness begins. So if IQ is really the goal, better study up on the Sony glass. No UWA yet. The camera cannot compete with M240 or D810 wider than 25mm, or at 28mm for that matter. You need the huge Batis 25/2 if you want serious performance, then FE 35/2.8, then 55/1.8 and that new 90.
or have Kolari strip off the silly thick cover glass for 500USD (r2), and things get alot better non-native.
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From the Sony website:
Sony has announced an uncompressed Raw option for its forthcoming a7S II model and will offer firmware updates for some existing models, starting with the a7R II. Up to now, Sony's cameras have only recorded compressed Raw files which can have a visual impact on some images (as we detailed in a recent article). The company says the move comes in response to feedback from its users.
I guess they have been listening
Robert Katz
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From the Sony website:
Sony has announced an uncompressed Raw option for its forthcoming a7S II model and will offer firmware updates for some existing models, starting with the a7R II. Up to now, Sony's cameras have only recorded compressed Raw files which can have a visual impact on some images (as we detailed in a recent article). The company says the move comes in response to feedback from its users.
I guess they have been listening
Robert Katz
It is a start, though lossless compressed would be better. I imagine the gimped 12bit mode in bulb, long exposure noise reduction, continuous and silent still remains.
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From the Sony website…
See LuLa A7RII - uncompressed RAW coming soon (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=103863.msg852697#msg852697)