Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: stamper on July 29, 2015, 03:48:36 am
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http://animalpetitions.org/115193/punish-hunter-who-illegally-murdered-cecil-the-lion/
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http://animalpetitions.org/115193/punish-hunter-who-illegally-murdered-cecil-the-lion/
I find the killing and the petition pretty much equally disturbing.
Jeremy
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What do you find disturbing about the petition then ?
If find the killing of the lion disturbing, paying 55k USD to brutally (yes, google 'cecil the lion' if you will) murder a neigh tame animal...what a sport.
He should have dropped that amount of cash on the new Phase One..could have a shot a whole lot more lions with that ;)
Cheers, Sander
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"
Officials in Zimbabwe have reported that Cecil the Lion was illegally hunted for $55,000 by Walter James Palmer, a dentist from Minnesota. Cecil was allegedly lured out of his home in a national park using food, shot with a crossbow, tracked for 40 more hours, then murdered with a gun. Cecil’s head was cut off as a trophy of his murder, and he was skinned. Cecil was part of an Oxford University research project and wore a GPS collar.
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If true and illegal, then a warrant for his arrest should be issued and an application to have him extradited should follow. Something tells me that the USA, though keen to extend the reach of the DoJ worldwide, aren't so enthusiastic when it comes to reciprocity.
I'm also told that this is being widely reported today across the EU , including the BBC, Times, Guardian and petitions are gathering 'substantial momentum'.
Personally, I'd crucify the 'low-life'.
@kikashi
Jeremy, can't follow your thought process here - perhaps you could expand ?
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I think that the numptie who drafted the petition is every bit as mentally disturbed as the "hunter" who killed the tame lion.
I make no excuses for the American dentist who did the killing nor for the PH who laid it on for him. But the petitioner is obviously one of those animal "rights" weirdos.
Wouldn't a sanely worded petition have gathered much more support? Including that of genuine hunters who abhor this type of lunacy.
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I couldn't access the actual petition here (at work) so didn't read the text and see how weird the text of the petition is. I assumed that the text was only about making sure that if what is claimed to have happened actually happened, the dentist would be brought to justice.
Don't expect too much from that though, if i read correctly he has been fined in the past: a measly USD 3000 for killing a black bear, an endangered species. As long as there are people who can drop 50K - 350K for a single hunt/kill/trophy the fines should be the double amount of that really, otherwise it's just another fee for them which they'll happily pay.
Best Regards, Sander
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I couldn't access the actual petition here (at work) so didn't read the text and see how weird the text of the petition is. I assumed that the text was only about making sure that if what is claimed to have happened actually happened, the dentist would be brought to justice.
The petition is a rambling mess of ideas that the author has not really given enough thought to to create a cogent argument. IMO not worth signing onto.
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If the identity of the poacher is correct,
I certainly hope that the residents of Min will take their business elsewhere.
Punishing him professionally and financially may be a more fitting punishment.
That's how I word a petition.
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ITM, #justiceforcecil is trending big time.
And try one of the other petitions (https://www.change.org/p/justice-for-cecil-the-iconic-collared-lion-slaughtered-by-trophy-hunter?source_location=trending_petitions_home_page&algorithm=curated_trending) ...
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BBC television this morning had a grovelling apology from the killer this morning so a confession has been made. I doubt he will be allowed into Africa again unless he is extradited. I suppose the game hunting fraternity in the USA won't agree he has done something wrong only that he has been outed?
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I doubt he will be allowed into Africa again unless he is extradited.
Big place Africa. Lot's of different countries.
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Big place Africa. Lot's of different countries.
Are you sure?
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I find the killing and the petition pretty much equally disturbing.
Jeremy
How so?
Peter
Jeremy is a lawyer so he will probably have a different perspective on things.
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A new unpalatable dimension to the word 'sport' ..
(http://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/1fde3a831f5235fcdc8895ea8c66a2c664bf44e7/0_2_620_372/master/620.jpg?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=f7d26d881f9669e767e15314525a457d)
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I suppose the game hunting fraternity in the USA won't agree he has done something wrong only that he has been outed?
Well, at least Newt Gingrich came straight out with it when he tweeted
" The entire team that killed the lion cecil should go to jail including the Minneapolis dentist"
You can change the law but how do you change the mindset ?
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(http://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/1fde3a831f5235fcdc8895ea8c66a2c664bf44e7/0_2_620_372/master/620.jpg?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=f7d26d881f9669e767e15314525a457d)
"I deeply regret that my pursuit of an activity I love and practice responsibly and legally resulted in the taking of this lion."
Yes, you can tell how much he regrets it from this photo.
This photo is repeated hundreds of times a year with different animals and different people. Hopefully society is reaching a turning point in how it views trophy hunting. The attempt to boost your ego by killing an animal and mounting it's head on your wall in an attempt to impress your friends is the height of selfishness. It's time for civil society to start shunning anyone who condones this. It's perverted and sick.
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I'm not a fan of trophy hunting, we get plenty of it here in Western Colorado. I find it sickening.
But sustenance hunting is another matter. I don't hunt myself but I do eat game that friends have taken and understand hunting has its place in the modern ecosystem (in which top predators have been eliminated or drastically reduced in numbers).
But the people calling for this guys death are also out of line and I hate to be aligned with them because I also object to this hunt.
I think he deserves some kind of punishment, and I'm sure he is getting his fair share at the moment. I'd like him to be an example for other trophy hunters, especially if they might be tempted to go on an illegal or questionable hunt. If he is correct that the guides misled him, that buys him a smidge of sympathy from me. But then again he is a trophy hunter, killing exotic animals for fun and (I imagine) status.
Ugh.
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aren't so enthusiastic when it comes to reciprocity.
and extrajudicial killings for that matter :D ... but that's expected
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Wouldn't a sanely worded petition have gathered much more support?
if there is a law that makes it a crime to participate as a combatant in a conflict abroad then the law is due to make it a crime to go hunting big game abroad either... just like a trade in poached skins, etc.
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Hopefully society is reaching a turning point in how it views trophy hunting.
Most-of-us don't trophy hunt, so most-of-us can partake of some cheap outrage - stopping trophy hunting wouldn't cost most-of-us anything.
Most-of-us do buy out-of-season produce cheaply in supermarkets, so most-of-us are complicit in the large scale destruction of wildlife habitats to grow those rich country crops.
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Most-of-us don't trophy hunt, so most-of-us can partake of some cheap outrage - stopping trophy hunting wouldn't cost most-of-us anything.
Most-of-us do buy out-of-season produce cheaply in supermarkets, so most-of-us are complicit in the large scale destruction of wildlife habitats to grow those rich country crops.
Animals bred for eating is different from the crime the dentist committed. Do you know the difference are are you deliberately confusing the two to sound different from all of the other posters? :(
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Animals bred for eating is different from the crime the dentist committed. Do you know the difference are are you deliberately confusing the two to sound different from all of the other posters? :(
Are "animals bred for eating" ever "out-of-season"? Perhaps you are thinking of Australian organic beef air-freighted to the US?
When I wrote "out-of-season produce" I was thinking of fresh green beans for UK Christmas dinner (http://www.theguardian.com/food/focus/story/0,,956536,00.html) -- "Local environmentalists blame the water problems here, as in other parts of Kenya, on the country's growing horticultural activities - on excessive abstraction to water the crops, on pollution from pesticide run-off, and on deforestation caused by migrant workers cutting wood for cooking fuel."
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Are "animals bred for eating" ever "out-of-season"? Perhaps you are thinking of Australian organic beef air-freighted to the US?
When I wrote "out-of-season produce" I was thinking of fresh green beans for UK Christmas dinner (http://www.theguardian.com/food/focus/story/0,,956536,00.html) -- "Local environmentalists blame the water problems here, as in other parts of Kenya, on the country's growing horticultural activities - on excessive abstraction to water the crops, on pollution from pesticide run-off, and on deforestation caused by migrant workers cutting wood for cooking fuel."
Lord save us from the argument of 'moral equivalence'. The resort of the banal and a perfect way to be totally non-judgemental lest (heaven forbid!) we hurt someone's feelings.
We accept killing a few animals so why not kill a few people without compunction - better still let's get a few of the better specimens and let them loose in forests so that hunters can have their fill and maybe keep human population under control. Maybe the dentist can even propose some of his patients who annoy him with their piss-poor dental hygiene and making him suffer with their horrendous bad breath.
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Lord save us from the argument of 'moral equivalence'.
When someone makes the argument of 'moral equivalence' feel free to complain.
The consequences of our rampant consumerism are vastly more destructive.
The resort of the banal and a perfect way to be totally non-judgemental lest (heaven forbid!) we hurt someone's feelings.
Noting that "most-of-us are complicit in the large scale destruction of wildlife habitats" is judgmental and spares no ones feelings.
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This issue with trophy hunters being publicly pointed out and shamed is more serious than I thought. As a native Texan I once worked as an art director for an eccentric millionaire with a lot of time on his hands as well as a bunch of trophy animal heads hanging on the walls of his Spanish style hacienda. I was really hired to sort through hundreds of photo prints he took depicting his adventures acquiring these trophies to hang on the walls of his new gaming and fishing resort down in Mexico. I knew I wasn't going to last at that job upon seeing what my real duties were to be.
I didn't and still don't see the appeal of shooting and mounting animals. Any animal! Too much work and expense along with the sight of seeing just the head with those glass eyes staring back at me just creeps me out and reminds me too much of Norman Bates from Hitchcock's "Psycho" movie.
What's telling on the seriousness of this issue is a while back I visited a local long standing, well known taxidermist to see if I could take some shots of the inside of shop and mentioned the name of this millionaire trophy hunter and that's when he decided to say no to my photographing his workshop or any of the pieces. He said he didn't want the photos to end up in online social network sites in order to protect the identity of his clientele. I took it that the millionaire was one of his clients though he never admitted he'ld heard of him.
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I find the killing and the petition pretty much equally disturbing.
Jeremy
Jeremy is a lawyer so he will probably have a different perspective on things.
Quite. The comments others have made on the petition make my point. There are two aspects to the detestation of the dentist's action: legal and moral. If what he did was illegal (and I've seen nothing to suggest that it, as opposed to what his guides did, was in fact illegal), then he should be prosecuted; and the penalty, if he is convicted, should be appropriate. It should not be influenced by any hysterical rants.
Morally, it's an entirely different matter. The thought processes, if any, involved in deciding to kill a lion for fun mystify me; but then, much that is beautiful, both natural and man-made, is wilfully destroyed by vandals and their thought processes, whether mindless or underscored by religious fanaticism, mystify me too. If people are sufficiently troubled by his actions to boycott his practice, that's his problem and their affair: I doubt I'll ever find myself in need of his services, so I don't take a view on a personal approach.
What also mystifies me (maybe it's just an easy thing to do) is the hysterical mentality of the animal rights fanatics.
Hence my being equally disturbed.
Jeremy
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I find the killing and the petition pretty much equally disturbing.
Jeremy
And so I find the hysterical petition to be disturbing.
If only the same focus could be on the 1251 rhinos that were poached in 2014 in South Africa and the 393 up to April this year that is on the one lion or polar bear that was shot somewhere in the world it would maybe make some slight difference to the rhino population that is fast disappearing here.
https://www.savetherhino.org/rhino_info/poaching_statistics
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I happen to have hunted animals on occasion, for the sole purposes of eating them. Never once for obtaining any kind of trophy. I only went after species that were so plentiful as to need human culling, since the creatures that naturally preyed upon them had long since been eliminated from the areas in question. In one case, I was in a survival situation, and trapped a few small ground squirrels, which turned out to be the basis for perhaps the most unpleasant soup I've ever tasted.
My personal feeling is that anyone who regularly eats meat should strongly consider hunting once, or at the least "cleaning" an animal, so you get the fullest possible understanding of what it means to kill another creature with the intention of consuming it. I'm sure some will be terribly outraged by that, and I certainly accept that as your prerogative.
At any rate, one of my great uncles (who passed away in the early 1960s) was in fact a trophy hunter. He was a sort of Teddy Roosevelt kind of character, and passed away in the early 1960s. He'd grown up in a remote, mountainous wilderness where hunting was a form of survival, but eventually made a small fortune operating heavy equipment, and thus had the means to travel the world in search of trophy game. Despite his wealth in later years, he still hunted during legal seasons. He was particularly fond of squirrel meat, something I'll never understand.
Being a trophy guy, he had a strong relationship with a local taxidermist. For reasons lost to history, he had the taxidermist mount one of his squirrels in a human stance; sitting as if on a chair or something. I don't really know why, but his wife sewed a little suit for it too, and thus began one of the strangest projects I've ever encountered. Eventually, they constructed a large diorama "squirrel wedding." I believe there are about 100 squirrels and chipmunks in it, each dressed in their finest Sunday outfit. There are elaborately crafted pews for each row of guests, complete with tiny hymnals. There's a full carriage, ring bearers, you get the picture.
My family is still in possession of this bizarre artifact. It was once featured on the cover for an album by a well-known punk rock band, and a famous documentary film maker is in the early stages of filming a feature about it. Really.
http://www.amazon.com/Crazy-Uncle-Pauls-Dead-Squirrel/dp/B000001V1J
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Quite. The comments others have made on the petition make my point.
No, they really don't. Even a cursory review of the news reports would have indicated the seriousness and depth of ill-feeling that this was to generate. So all it shows, at best, is a rather superficial glossing over the real 'rub'.
If what he did was illegal (and I've seen nothing to suggest that it, as opposed to what his guides did, was in fact illegal), then he should be prosecuted; and the penalty, if he is convicted, should be appropriate.
The Zimbabwean Parks Authority statement (http://www.zimparks.org/index.php/mc/210-joint-press-statement-by-zimbabwe-parks-and-wildlife-management-authority-and-safari-operators-association-of-zimbabwe-on-the-illegal-hunt-of-a-collared-lion-at-antoinette-farm-hwange-district-on-1-july-2015-in-gwayi-conservancy-by-bushman-safaris-profess) says it all : “The rules are clear in Zimbabwe that no protected lions should be hunted. Both the professional hunter and landowner had no permit or quota to justify the offtake of the lion and therefore are liable for the illegal hunt”
According to a police spokeswoman, If convicted, the men face up to 15 years in prison. Palmer also faces poaching charges, “We arrested two people and now we are looking for Palmer in connection with the same case,” she said.
Cecil was shot with a bow (by Palmer), injured, pursued for close on 40 hours then shot, skinned, beheaded – and finally attempts were made to hide the GPS collar. Not exactly the innocent acquiescence of a naÏf.
For the manner and duplicity of the crime (again, if he's convicted) - I'd say 15 years without parole, in a Zimbabwean jail sounds about right. That he's also got previous 'form' for similar crimes should, of course, not be considered in the sentencing for this one. But it certainly does no harm in appeasing any thoughts about a miscarriage of justice.
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The taking of this lion may have been illegal. But trophy hunting is encouraged by many countries in Africa. They make big bucks on hunting fees and money spent by hunters that support the local economy. There's a lot of trophy hunting here in America. Some hunters use bow and arrow to make it more challenging than guns. People mount antlers from elk, deer etc. I think the problem, beside the illegal nature of taking this particular lion, is that this lion was "friendly" and "sweet". If the dentist shot a nasty crocodile or big slimy lizard, it wouldn't even be news.
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But trophy hunting is encouraged by many countries in Africa. They make big bucks on hunting fees and money spent by hunters that support the local economy.
right... and there was a time when trade in slaves was actually encouraged by many "countries" in Africa, no... so ?
There's a lot of trophy hunting here in America. Some hunters use bow and arrow to make it more challenging than guns. People mount antlers from elk, deer etc. I think the problem, beside the illegal nature of taking this particular lion, is that this lion was "friendly" and "sweet". If the dentist shot a nasty crocodile or big slimy lizard, it wouldn't even be news.
true, and it takes a particular outrageous killing of a negro to give some attention to the situation with those matters in USA, no ? so is the situation with wildlife in Africa... hopefully Cecil's death will not be in vain.
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Well, I wouldn't compare killing of humans and the slave trade with hunting. My point was that although you (and I) don't hunt, many people do and many places allow even encourage it. While there were violations in this case (the lion was in a protected area), hunting lions apparently is legal there. People in the US hunt bear, deer, elk, moose, squirrels, duck (Donald) , water fowl, etc. States reap the bounty from hunting licenses and permits, companies for equipment, hotels and towns and camps when hunters stay overnight, etc. Also hunting reduces over-population that would get out of hand because we have pushed out their natural hunters like wolves. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.
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Well, I wouldn't compare killing of humans and the slave trade with hunting.
why ? I am talking about the local powers making profit from the business... so the mere fact that some activity brings $$$ does not mean it shall continue
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Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.
I am pro hunting to control the game population, eradicate disease, protect humans from attacks (nothing wrong to shoot Cecil if he attempts to eat you or yours outside of the nature park), may be protects crops in some cased or provide food (not lions and not to dentists) ... I am against hunting as a sport or entertainment or for profit (other than see above about crops)
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Well, I am grateful to those hunters who keep the local white-tailed deer population under control. Who wants starving sick deer, which is what you get with over-population? The only other predator of the deer, besides the hunter, is ..... the automobile. BTW, people eat their venison, and if by chance the hunter doesn't want the meat, the state will pay to butcher the animal and will distribute the meat to homeless centers and food banks.
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Quote from: Alan Klein on Today at 07:39:26 PM
Well, I wouldn't compare killing of humans and the slave trade with hunting.
Reply #33 on: Today at 08:21:42 PM
why ? I am talking about the local powers making profit from the business... so the mere fact that some activity brings $$$ does not mean it shall continue
Why? To equate slavery and killing of humans to hunting demeans the value of human life. People are calling for the death of the hunter. Our value system is all screwed up.
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A new unpalatable dimension to the word 'sport' ..
(http://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/1fde3a831f5235fcdc8895ea8c66a2c664bf44e7/0_2_620_372/master/620.jpg?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=f7d26d881f9669e767e15314525a457d)
You can tell he is genuinely happy about the dead Cecil. After all, they successfully lured the cat out from the protected zone, he got to shoot at him first with a bow and arrow (btw, was it from a safe, elevated hide or from the comfort of the truck?), then they had a real hunt for 40 hours, and finally someone (was it the same or a more competent shooter?) got more opportunities to kill the monster. Quite an adventure and what an exciting sport! And then comes the icing on the cake - through lucky circumstances or as God's gift, they even found a collar with a functioning GPS on Cecil's neck. That would put a smile on any like-minded sportsman.
The American Dental association could use this picture with a caption - "The Killer Smile". Or maybe they should just take his license away to keep some respect for the profession.
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Are "animals bred for eating" ever "out-of-season"? Perhaps you are thinking of Australian organic beef air-freighted to the US?
When I wrote "out-of-season produce" I was thinking of fresh green beans for UK Christmas dinner (http://www.theguardian.com/food/focus/story/0,,956536,00.html) -- "Local environmentalists blame the water problems here, as in other parts of Kenya, on the country's growing horticultural activities - on excessive abstraction to water the crops, on pollution from pesticide run-off, and on deforestation caused by migrant workers cutting wood for cooking fuel."
Why don't you stick to the subject? Do you condone the killing or are you against it? If you aren't sure of what the subject is then ask your carer for help.
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Why don't you stick to the subject? Do you condone the killing or are you against it? If you aren't sure of what the subject is then ask your carer for help.
Right on! Surely they didn't use fresh beans as bait (unless they fed the beans to the hunters before the hunt).
Could be a time-honed and highly refined technique to minimize the value of previous posts of his opponents or possibly some kind of dysfunction.
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Does anyone think that after this incident that dentists will be disliked as much as lawyers? :)
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Some hunters use bow and arrow to make it more challenging than guns.
There's another reason for the rising popularity of bows. They are quiet, so illegal activities such as this one are less likely to be noticed.
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I think that the numptie who drafted the petition is every bit as mentally disturbed as the "hunter" who killed the tame lion.
I make no excuses for the American dentist who did the killing nor for the PH who laid it on for him. But the petitioner is obviously one of those animal "rights" weirdos.
Wouldn't a sanely worded petition have gathered much more support? Including that of genuine hunters who abhor this type of lunacy.
I find the killing and the petition pretty much equally disturbing.
So someone who asks for a criminal to be punished is disturbed because they asked for justice to be served? ???
I'd agree that the petition is emotive, heartfelt and rambles a bit, so not exactly your usual dry legalese writing.
However this is the last line and is the key part of the petition.
"I urge you to severely punish to the maximum degree the hunter who committed this horrific crime, if found guilty."
That's a fairly reasonable request I'd say, to use the law to punish someone if found guilty. Going by the two hysterical posts above, I expected the petition to demand the hunter beheaded and skinned like his trophy. ::)
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Does anyone think that after this incident that dentists will be disliked as much as lawyers? :)
The only way to avoid such a scenario would be to sacrifice a dentist or two and throw them to the lions.
According to viralnova, about 70 people per year are eaten by African lions. Regretfully, they don't specify the occupations.
http://www.viralnova.com/animals-that-kill-humans/
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The only way to avoid such a scenario would be to sacrifice a dentist or two and throw them to the lions.
According to viralnova, about 70 people per year are eaten by African lions. Regretfully, they don't specify the occupations.
http://www.viralnova.com/animals-that-kill-humans/
You're using a click bait website for facts! ???
Though I liked this grammatically vague 'fact'.
The Tsetse fly is what spread the African sleeping sickness, which affects as many as 500,000 people, 80 percent of whom eventually die.
So the other 20% live for ever. Who'd have guessed.
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Does anyone think that after this incident that dentists will be disliked as much as lawyers? :)
Only by dumb people I guess. :D
BLS reports that in 2012 there were about 146,800 dentists in the US.
The news is reporting that there was 1 dentist/poacher.
Why would anyone make an opinion on a population based on 0.0000068 sample?
We may dislike this specific dentist/poacher, but why would what this one person did affect how we would perceive everyone else in his profession that is not a Poacher?
This jerk shot the lion not because he was a dentist, but because he was a poacher. Hate him because he is a scumbag poacher, not because he is a dentist.
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Why don't you stick to the subject? Do you condone the killing or are you against it? If you aren't sure of what the subject is then ask your carer for help.
Right on!
As before. (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102465.msg840730#msg840730) Enjoy your cheap outrage.
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So someone who asks for a criminal to be punished is disturbed because they asked for justice to be served? ???
I wrote nothing about the individual. You appear unable (and not just in this post) to distinguish a person from his opinions.
That's a fairly reasonable request I'd say, to use the law to punish someone if found guilty. Going by the two hysterical posts above, I expected the petition to demand the hunter beheaded and skinned like his trophy. ::)
You might also benefit from an understanding of the meaning of "hysterical".
Jeremy
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Right on!
As before. (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102465.msg840730#msg840730) Enjoy your cheap outrage.
The outrage was directed to the killer. For you, dear Isaac, I have only warm feelings (and sometimes, a deep concern).
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The outrage was directed to the killer.
There was no confusion about that; enjoy your cheap outrage.
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There was no confusion about that; enjoy your cheap outrage.
Isaac in the past you have come across as a religious person - quoting the bible - so I would have thought you would have had sympathy for the fate of an innocent animal but all I see is cynicism and not a shred of humanity. :(
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Isn't there something deeply disturbing about giving wild animals human names? Especially names like "Cecil", presumably chosen to "honour" the "founder" of Rhodesia?
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Isn't there something deeply disturbing about giving wild animals human names? Especially names like "Cecil", presumably chosen to "honour" the "founder" of Rhodesia?
A common practice? I don't see a problem
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I am against poaching. If that was the case here shoot those who knew they were doing so.
I am against humanizing wild animals by naming them with human names and referring to them as "individual".
Although someone intimately involved may have known it was 'Cecil' and he had a tracking collar, I had never heard of the cat and question with all that mane if one would even see the collar from the distance you would be shooting.
With thousands of kilos of elephant ivory and rhino horn leaving the continent every year so that trinkets can be carved and dick less Asian men can imagine virility one elderly lion is what social media and Betty White get their panties twisted over. Astounding.
Birkin wants her name taken off the Croc Birkin Bag because the producers of the skins used are mean to the crocodiles yet millions are spent every year in Cabo sport fishing for the biggest marlin. Poor things yanked by a hook in the mouth unceremoniously from the water.
Where's the love for fish? Are they not special enough? No Cecils in Cabo?
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There was no confusion about that; enjoy your cheap outrage.
Isaac in the past you have come across as a religious person - quoting the bible - so I would have thought you would have had sympathy for the fate of an innocent animal but all I see is cynicism and not a shred of humanity. :(
In the past you have come across as someone who enjoys denigrating other forum users -- there you go again.
As before (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102465.msg840730#msg840730): Most-of-us do buy out-of-season produce cheaply in supermarkets, so most-of-us are complicit in the large scale destruction of wildlife habitats (and entire species) to grow those rich country crops.
As before (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102465.msg840750#msg840750): The consequences of our rampant consumerism are vastly destructive.
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Isn't there something deeply disturbing about giving wild animals human names? Especially names like "Cecil", presumably chosen to "honour" the "founder" of Rhodesia?
Even more disturbing is giving humans names of wild places, i.e. Dakota, Sierra, Sea, Moon, etc. And I'm not even mentioning first names, such as Dodge, Nisan, Audi and Royce.
Yes, they should have given Cecil a more dignified and descriptive name, such as Hwange-Lion-2002-0047.
Typical lifespan of an African lion is 10-16 years in wild. He was barely 13 years old when he crossed the path with the Minnesota most infamous bow and arrow shooter.
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Isaac in the past you have come across as a religious person - quoting the bible - so I would have thought you would have had sympathy for the fate of an innocent animal but all I see is cynicism and not a shred of humanity. :(
In the past you have come across as someone who enjoys denigrating other forum users -- there you go again.
As before (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102465.msg840730#msg840730): Most-of-us do buy out-of-season produce cheaply in supermarkets, so most-of-us are complicit in the large scale destruction of wildlife habitats (and entire species) to grow those rich country crops.
As before (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102465.msg840750#msg840750): The consequences of our rampant consumerism are vastly destructive.
I second the motion. To go one step further, we can grow our own produce and eliminate packaging, transportation, and spoilage costs. Just picked up two good size zucchinis from my little garden.
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I wrote nothing about the individual. You appear unable (and not just in this post) to distinguish a person from his opinions.
So you say "I find the killing and the petition pretty much equally disturbing." yet apparently you are not commenting in any way on the petition writer, who writes these 'disturbing things'. Nice splitting of hairs whilst there along with a good dash of rudeness Jeremy.
BTW, a person and their opinions are not separate items. If a person has for example racist opinions then they are a racist. Opinions/views are a major part of what makes a person who they are.
You might also benefit from an understanding of the meaning of "hysterical".
I know exactly what it means and 'overwrought' describes both posts spot on in my view. As I said above, asking for justice to be legally served is not in any way disturbing. It's a reasonable request, even if not written quite as well as it could have been. You finding wanting justice serving disturbing however, now that is a bit weird.
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Isaac in the past you have come across as a religious person - quoting the bible - so I would have thought you would have had sympathy for the fate of an innocent animal but all I see is cynicism and not a shred of humanity. :(
He's also quoted numerous photographers. This does not mean he take pictures himself. ;)
Also why suppose that because someone is religious they would have any interest in an animal's fate or welfare?
I would tend to think the opposite, for example religions are currently objecting in Denmark to being forced to use humane methods for killing animals.
Not that the Danes treat their factory farmed animals humanely in the first place, so a somewhat hypocritical stance.
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Isn't there something deeply disturbing about giving wild animals human names? Especially names like "Cecil", presumably chosen to "honour" the "founder" of Rhodesia?
You seem very easily disturbed by things. ???
So, are you less disturbed by people giving their pet's names and what non-human names would you suggest we call wild animals?
Anyway, calling a human Cecil would be far worse I'd have thought, as it's long been seen as a old fashioned toff's name here in the UK. More likely to be used in comedy sketches.
Though I'm now wondering how many babies are going to be inflicted with it this coming year.
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Just another case for bored professional arm-chair outragers to be outraged.
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From Gamergate to Cecil the lion: internet mob justice is out of control (http://www.vox.com/2015/7/30/9074865/cecil-lion-palmer-mob-justice)
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It is becoming all too reminiscent of a case in UK a few years back where one of the tabloids insisted on printing the names and pictures of convicted paedophiles, justifying it on the grounds that because UK does not have an equivalent to Megans Law they were giving the public the information to keep children safe. Of course all it did was stir up a similar mob justice which ended up with some illiteate moron mistaking 'paediatrician' for 'paedophile' (as if a paedophile would advertise their practices!!) and driving a well-respected doctor from her home.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/aug/30/childprotection.society
The internet provides merely another means of similar 'justice'
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It is quite a useful distraction, especially for US politicians like Newt Gingrich, considering that
- Jon Corzine of MF Global, stole $1 Billion USD from segregated client accounts, and never went to jail
- The US banks stole over $1 Trillion from people's savings accounts, by the Fed's artificially depressing interest rates at a special rate given only to banks
- The Greeks are being turned into slaves, and yes, some have died as a result of the EU/ECB's fraudulent banking practices using the Greek govt as a front to give money to the German and French banks, which otherwise might have collapsed
- Zimbabwe, where Cecil was killed, has seen its homicide rate go from 7 per 100K population in 1999 to 11 per 100K in 2011 - for a country of 14 million, this means that during the 1 week time period we have been hearing about Cecil, some 30 or more Zim *humans* have been killed - but let's all rage over a lion that is just one of many, many that are poached each year.
Yes, the dentist was an idiot to not check out that he was killing the wrong lion, then again, because he paid $55K he probably thought it was all on the up and up.
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- The Greeks are being turned into slaves
that was their free choice - they had a chance to flip a birdie, but alas they long lost any spirit...
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It is quite a useful distraction, especially for US politicians like Newt Gingrich, considering that
- Jon Corzine of MF Global, stole $1 Billion USD from segregated client accounts, and never went to jail
- The US banks stole over $1 Trillion from people's savings accounts, by the Fed's artificially depressing interest rates at a special rate given only to banks
- The Greeks are being turned into slaves, and yes, some have died as a result of the EU/ECB's fraudulent banking practices using the Greek govt as a front to give money to the German and French banks, which otherwise might have collapsed
- Zimbabwe, where Cecil was killed, has seen its homicide rate go from 7 per 100K population in 1999 to 11 per 100K in 2011 - for a country of 14 million, this means that during the 1 week time period we have been hearing about Cecil, some 30 or more Zim *humans* have been killed - but let's all rage over a lion that is just one of many, many that are poached each year.
Yep, let's all use the case of a shot lion to make some tenuous links, indulge in some dodgy conclusions and indulge in some political grandstanding.
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Just saw on the news that the ones at fault should be the global animal conservation agencies that should've put exotic animals such as the lion on the endangered species list since we're down to about less than 50,000 world wide.
But how many lions do we really need to have their population conserved? How many is too many to where we want trophy hunters to control their population?
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But how many lions do we really need to have their population conserved?
shall be there a difference between male lions and female ones in that particular case ? a can of worms :D
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All that being said, bow hunting does take some skill, and furthermore, if you are hunting a predator with a bow, it takes some gonads (assuming that there's no gun to hand).
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Lions are down to about 20,000, and that's a pretty dicey number already. If there is to be a long-term sustainable population (absent some scientific breakthrough) there's not a whole bunch of downward motion that's going to be sustainable.
That said, the apex predators are pretty much toast. The music has stopped and there are no chairs. At this point it's a question of delaying the probably-inevitable for, well, for a handful of reasons, as well as the hope of some sort of simultaneous breakthroughs in economics, cultures, and science, that will allow the situation to reverse.
It sucks, and I sure hope we don't find out that the whole damn thing collapses without the apex predators (and the every other thing we're wiping out)
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Lions are down to about 20,000, and that's a pretty dicey number already. If there is to be a long-term sustainable population (absent some scientific breakthrough) there's not a whole bunch of downward motion that's going to be sustainable.
It isn't so much that there are 20,000 it is that that population is spread throughout Africa and the population in each is getting pretty thin, with some populations in-breeding heavily.
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All that being said, bow hunting does take some skill, and furthermore, if you are hunting a predator with a bow
plz don't tell us that he was alone there with just a bow, w/o proper rifle/bullets to take out the relevant game and w/o guides (more then one) with such weapons too activng to safeguard him :D ... between F16 pilot and ISIL fighter on the ground - who has more gonads ?
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All that being said, bow hunting does take some skill,
Yes, and apparently he didn't have enough of it, as his prey was still walking around with an arrow in it 40 hours later. He claims to be a responsible hunter, but a responsible hunter does not risking wounding an animal so that he can claim to have killed it in a more challenging fashion. Ego trumped responsibility. He also is alleged to have shot it at night while it was spotlighted. Criminal.
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Bow hunting appears to have become big as it tests hunters ability and courage more than rifle hunting. Getting within yards of dangerous animals that can charge and attack you is a lot more riskier than shooting them with a rifle at two hundred yards. Here's a short video advertising the hunting group the dentist belonged too.
http://www.scifirstforhunters.org/videos/index/mirandavideo
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Bow or rifle, the entire thing seems like an anachronism to me. There were guides around, presumably armed with rifles, in case things went wrong. If I were a guide, I'd have a rifle. So how dangerous is it these days? How many "big game" hunters have been malled lately? Did he even have to pitch his own tent or cook his own food? I don't completely disregard the adventure value of the kind of Hemingway pre-WW2 "safari"-like hunting trip, but is that what this was or was it just a cartoon?
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Seriously, people!? Four pages over a hunting anecdote? It should be much more about the internet mob "justice" and the rise of the no-life, judgmental freaks that comprise it. Some people seem to think that their likes and dislikes are so universal and morally superior that they need to be shoved down the throat onto everyone else.
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I don't know about hunting - I never did it. But I enjoy fishing having done it since I was a kid. It's getting out in the wilderness (and shooting my camera at the same time), it's challenging although not considered dangerous, tests your skill and patience and is exciting when you catch a nice one. It's not about the eating of it for me although that can be done. If I ever caught a record size, I'd probably mount it as a trophy. (Well, my wife would have a say in that I suppose.) With fresh water fish, I throw them back. But some die too in the process of catching them and wind up as food for other fish and animals. With salt water I usually give it to the other fishermen to keep and eat. ) Am I also an anachronistic throwback? Am I being unfair to the fish? Am I a murderer? What's he difference between me, a fisherman, and a hunter?
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.....But I enjoy fishing having done it since I was a kid. It's getting out in the wilderness (and shooting my camera at the same time), it's challenging although not considered dangerous, tests your skill and patience and is exciting when you catch a nice one. It's not about the eating of it for me although that can be done. If I ever caught a record size, I'd probably mount it as a trophy. (Well, my wife would have a say in that I suppose.) .....
Hmmm. Interesting. I can say the same thing about when I go out to shoot a landscape or nature picture. It has many of the same characteristics. Planning and getting into nature, challenging, skillful, test your patience and when you get a good one, you frame it and mount it on the wall like a trophy.
So photographers are like hunters and fisherman. They all want a trophy, stroking their egos in different ways.
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It's the coffee corner, Slobodan! People talk about what interests them, and there's no denying that the dentist is in the zeitgeist.
To be sure, he's not the problem. The Chinese obsession with eating endangered animals, global poverty, and a handful of other factors are the underlying issues that actually matter. Still, a little outrage on the internet might actually move the needle on Chinese culture, and that's not a bad thing.
(as a side note, why anyone ever bothers with actual rhino horns and so on is a bit of a puzzle. ground up fingernail clippings are just as effective, and much easier to obtain.)
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To be sure, he's not the problem. The Chinese obsession with eating endangered animals, global poverty, and a handful of other factors are the underlying issues that actually matter.
So our lifestyles are not the problem? We don't need to change!
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btw didn't one startup-turned-mutibillioner founder claimed to eat what he kills for a year... now I know what I do not use that product at all :D
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One lion less out of 20,000 wouldn't be such a big loss, however, this fellow was collared and subject of a multi-year study, so killing him was a great loss.
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One lion less out of 20,000 wouldn't be such a big loss, however, this fellow was collared and subject of a multi-year study, so killing him was a great loss.
It wasn't a great loss to Jericho the brother of Cecil who with Cecil previously ruled the pride. Now Cecil has exclusivity to mate with all the females. He's one happy lion.
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It wasn't a great loss to Jericho the brother of Cecil who with Cecil previously ruled the pride. Now Cecil has exclusivity to mate with all the females. He's one happy lion.
Just to clarify, Alan, on the savannah, Jericho has now the exclusive mating rights. But deep in the lionesses hearts, it will be always Cecil.
BTW, the two lions were not related, but apparently, had a bond "close to brotherhood." Let's just say, they were soul brothers.
However, all the new pleasures come with a lot of responsibility.
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Interesting opinion of a Zimbabwean. He thinks Americans are pretty screwy.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/opinion/in-zimbabwe-we-dont-cry-for-lions.html
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In 1975 there were still 250,000 lions. Today only 10%, or 25,000, remain. Statistics for many wild species are similar. For instance, about one third of the wild orangutans have vanished in just the last 10 years, and the populations of numerous song bird species in North America have declined by 70% to 90% since World War II. At the same time the world's human population has more than doubled since 1968. Coincidence?
Regardless of the reason or reasons, statistics make it obvious that many wild animals are headed for extinction. Some people are happy about it and others lament it, but it's happening with or without either group.
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Seriously, people!? Four pages over a hunting anecdote? It should be much more about the internet mob "justice" and the rise of the no-life, judgmental freaks that comprise it. Some people seem to think that their likes and dislikes are so universal and morally superior that they need to be shoved down the throat onto everyone else.
Nice bit of hypocrisy there as you are more than happy to offer your opinions/likes/dislikes on most things, often extremely forcefully whilst being rude and insulting to to other posters. As you are here being patronising and sneering to those who care about things you do not.
Killing animals is actually quite a serious matter as the stupid short sighted attitude people have to animals may ironically be our ultimate undoing.
These number Dean mentions are not a good thing.
In 1975 there were still 250,000 lions. Today only 10%, or 25,000, remain. Statistics for many wild species are similar. For instance, about one third of the wild orangutans have vanished in just the last 10 years, and the populations of numerous song bird species in North America have declined by 70% to 90% since World War II. At the same time the world's human population has more than doubled since 1968. Coincidence?
Regardless of the reason or reasons, statistics make it obvious that many wild animals are headed for extinction. Some people are happy about it and others lament it, but it's happening with or without either group.
Companies that sell pesticides that may be wiping out bees are trying to sue European governments to allow them to carry on despite the fact this potentially could be completely disastrous for us.
Profit coming before everything else is humankind at its most stupid.
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A couple of quotes from Oscar Wilde seem apposite: "The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible" and "a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing".
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btw didn't one startup-turned-mutibillioner founder claimed to eat what he kills for a year... now I know what I do not use that product at all :D
Who are you talking about?
However if someone kills an animal and then actually eats it, is that not better than all those people who buy meat or fish at the supermarket after someone else had done the killing for them?