Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Schewe on July 04, 2015, 05:58:36 pm
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Mark,
Nice job on the P800 report...you sure delved into the graphs and charts :~)
As noted elsewhere, Epson removed the back paler loading path. So, did you have any issues loading heavy fine art paper from the front manual path?
BTW, I ate at the Rose & Crown with Martin Evening. It was the first time I had haggis (and rather liked it).
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Jeff, Sharon - thanks, glad you liked the review. The stiffest paper I loaded into the front feeder was Epson Hot Press Natural and it traveled well. As a beta tester Epson had loaned me a pre-production unit that still needed some tidying up of the casing, the front paper feed and some stuff in the driver, but the print engine was complete, so instead of dealing with aspects that weren't in finished form, I focused the review mainly on IQ and I expect to be doing a Part 2 focusing on the mechanicals and the driver when I get access to a final production unit; hence my testing of paper loading was confined to the papers I printed on for the review, as mentioned there. So far so good. In the next round I'll try challenging it with some real heavy stuff and see how it performs. :-)
Sharon - if the Harmon Fiber Baryta Gloss is about the same weight and thickness as Ilford Gold Fibre Silk or Canson Baryta Photographique (310 gsm) you should be fine. I fed the IGFS through it and had no problems.
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Oh - the "Fine Art" papers are loaded using the front feed. That would apply to IGFS etc.
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Mark, thanks so much for a thorough review. It was the information I was looking for. I'm going to be ordering a P800 very soon.
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Mark, this was a very thoughtful review. Thanks very much for taking the time. I have just had mine for a few days, but the Black & Whites with ABW on Canson Baryta have been very satisfying.
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Mark a well informing report. Question: what about gloss differential and bronzing?
I have the same image printed on p800 and Stylus pro 990 and the p800 one has more gloss differential and bronzen than the stylus9900.
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BTW, I ate at the Rose & Crown with Martin Evening. It was the first time I had haggis (and rather liked it).
I hope you had some Scotch with it, Jeff; and that you remembered that it's for the haggis, not for you.
Jeremy
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I hope you had some Scotch with it, Jeff; and that you remembered that it's for the haggis, not for you.
Yep...in fact, the ONLY food that seems to go with Scotch is haggis...
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Mark a well informing report. Question: what about gloss differential and bronzing?
I have the same image printed on p800 and Stylus pro 990 and the p800 one has more gloss differential and bronzen than the stylus9900.
That would be disappointing, if it turns out to be true across a broad range of papers.
What paper did you use in the comparison?
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Mark a well informing report. Question: what about gloss differential and bronzing?
I have the same image printed on p800 and Stylus pro 990 and the p800 one has more gloss differential and bronzen than the stylus9900.
Hi Jan,
As you would know well, the appearance of bronzing and gloss differential depends on the inks, image, paper and the angle of viewing (as well as whether the printer deposits material in lieu of ink where the colour values are close to or at paper white). Based on the samples I printed, it's a non-issue for the matte papers. For the luster papers if there is no ink lay-down the paper white would show a different gloss than the bordering inked surfaces but only if viewed at an angle that no-one would use if they want to see the photo properly. This general statement applies to all the printers compared in the review. I did not see any evidence of bronzing in any of the work I did.
If you would like to send me your samples so I can have a look, I'd be interested to see what you came up with - we can arrange that off line.
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If someone said the magic words "it doesn't clog" about this printer, it would already be in my shopping cart. But now, I'm waiting to hear reports about how it is resistant to this plague...
I do not print very often, and am fed up with wasting half of my ink cartridges in cleaning procedures, and the time spent doing them.
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If someone said the magic words "it doesn't clog" about this printer, it would already be in my shopping cart. But now, I'm waiting to hear reports about how it is resistant to this plague...
I do not print very often, and am fed up with wasting half of my ink cartridges in cleaning procedures, and the time spent doing them.
I wonder if any inkjet pigment photo print won't clog it's print head from time to time?
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I wonder if any inkjet pigment photo print won't clog it's print head from time to time?
My aging 3800 clogs about once a year, and a simple cleaning (or rarely two) always fixes it completely.
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If someone said the magic words "it doesn't clog" about this printer, it would already be in my shopping cart. But now, I'm waiting to hear reports about how it is resistant to this plague...
I do not print very often, and am fed up with wasting half of my ink cartridges in cleaning procedures, and the time spent doing them.
As Mark indicated in his review, only months of use by many consumers will provide the empirical data needed to determine under what circumstances the P800 might clog. But given that its basic head design is taken from the 3800/3880 - easily the most reliable pigment printer Epson has ever sold - my guess is that the P800 will continue that steadfast tradition.
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My aging 3800 clogs about once a year, and a simple cleaning (or rarely two) always fixes it completely.
Eric, it gets even better than that. I have a very close friend in Ottawa who "inherited" my 3800 shortly after I bought my 4900 about 3.5~4 years ago. He's keen but very busy and seldom used it. We visit them from time to time. The first year he had the printer he used it once or twice, but early on. We fired it up and it worked like a charm without so much as a head cleaning. The nozzle check pattern was complete. Fast forward two years, we visit them again, and he tells me: Mark, haven't used the printer since the last time we tried this, so we really need to see if it still works. I wondered too. So we switched it on, and this time it did a head cleaning on its own. Then we did a nozzle check and there were some missing lines in every channel. So we ran a test print, then did a regular head cleaning, ran another nozzle check, found two channels still slightly blocked, ran another cleaning, did a check and the pattern was complete - perfect. So, this is almost three years of virtually no use and inks that were at least two years beyond expiry. I think it needs to be re-profiled if he wants to continue using these heavily expired inks because we did have a few colour management issues, but if he replaces the inks he'll probably be fine with the existing profile. Compare this with my 4900 which is a superb printer given continuous baby-sitting and you get the idea. So yes, that model was/is stellar. And the fact that we got anything even close to tolerable output with such long-expired inks tells you something about the real-life elasticity of expiry dates. So the discussion we had is whether it's worthwhile spending 500 dollars on fresh inks for a nearly 9 year old printer, or donate it and buy the latest available with new inks and a warranty. Tough choice if you're not really printing :-), so maybe it will be the re-profiling option..............
Cheers.
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Thanks for that encouraging report, Mark.
I do probably make between 200 and 300 prints each year, often with significant gaps between printing sessions. The beast is so reliable that I rarely even bother with a nozzle check, until a print comes out that has obvious issues. Then I do a nozzle check, tell myself to get in the habit of doing them more often, and then I do a cleaning or two and it's back to printing just fine.
Note to self: Better do a nozzle check later today. ;)
I look forward to your follow up report on the P800 once you have a commercial version.
For the past year or two I've been expecting my 3800 to die after which I would get a 3880, but I'm close to too late for that. So my next printer will likely be a P800 (or possibly its successor!)
Cheers,
Eric
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Eric, based on availability I think your next printer will be the P800, if you intend to remain within roughly the same class of printer. Depending on when, and though I have absolutely no clue about this, I'm hypothesizing that given how the 4900 is now about four years old and there is a new inkset (the Surecolor inks), it would seem logical to expect some time in the indefinite future a 4900 class of printer with the new inks - and one hopes design improvements that mitigate the clog/cleaning business.
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While in the 3880, going from PK to Mk ink changes were automatic, in the P800's System Administration there is an option 'Bk Ink Auto Change'. I set it to 'No' and then tried printing a paper with Matte page profile while the printer was still on PK. A message popped up, "Change to Black Ink Type specified by printer driver?'. Hitting Cancel turns to job off. Hitting 'Proceed' and the LCD panel says 'Changing to Matte Black'.
So, it prevents accidental ink changes.
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While in the 3880, going from PK to Mk ink changes were automatic, in the P800's System Administration there is an option 'Bk Ink Auto Change'. I set it to 'No' and then tried printing a paper with Matte page profile while the printer was still on PK. A message popped up, "Change to Black Ink Type specified by printer driver?'. Hitting Cancel turns to job off. Hitting 'Proceed' and the LCD panel says 'Changing to Matte Black'.
So, it prevents accidental ink changes.
If it's what I think it is, that's pretty clever. It's probably letting you make the choice if the paper is of a kind that can be printed with either LK or PK, but if it's a paper that clearly wants only one or the other, it's letting the paper spec over-ride the optionality. Not sure about this, just deducing. As I mentioned in the review, some aspects of the driver were still being perfected while I had that printer so I deferred reviewing the driver, but hope to get to it in the unforeseeable future..........
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While in the 3880, going from PK to Mk ink changes were automatic, in the P800's System Administration there is an option 'Bk Ink Auto Change'. I set it to 'No' and then tried printing a paper with Matte page profile while the printer was still on PK. A message popped up, "Change to Black Ink Type specified by printer driver?'. Hitting Cancel turns to job off. Hitting 'Proceed' and the LCD panel says 'Changing to Matte Black'.
So, it prevents accidental ink changes.
That feature alone would be worth the upgrade price ;D
I don't think the P800's little brother, the P600, has that feature, but I could be wrong.
cheers,
Mark
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That feature alone would be worth the upgrade price ;D
I knew you guys would love this! ;D
I was just astonished that it is not there in the documentation.
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I knew you guys would love this! ;D
I was just astonished that it is not there in the documentation.
At the bottom of page 112 of the manual it says:
Note: The ink type may change depending on the size and type of paper you select. To avoid
changing black ink more often than necessary, set the printer to the type of black ink you usually
use.
On page 138 it says:
Your product switches the black ink type automatically, depending on the type of media you load.
Because this process consumes some ink, so you should avoid switching black ink more often than
necessary and select a default black ink type for the type of media you print on most often.
Hence if you have manually created a mismatch, it's not allowing it.
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At the bottom of page 112 of the manual it says:
Note: The ink type may change depending on the size and type of paper you select. To avoid
changing black ink more often than necessary, set the printer to the type of black ink you usually
use.
On page 138 it says:
Your product switches the black ink type automatically, depending on the type of media you load.
Because this process consumes some ink, so you should avoid switching black ink more often than
necessary and select a default black ink type for the type of media you print on most often.
Hence if you have manually created a mismatch, it's not allowing it.
Yes, I get that, and they did a good job in explaining the default behavior. But they do not document how this can be over-ridden. Seems like a great feature that was missing in 3880 and has been added in the P800. If I accidentally made a choice that would waste some ink, the option to confirm that is nice.
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Yes, I get that, and they did a good job in explaining the default behavior. But they do not document how this can be over-ridden. Seems like a great feature that was missing in 3880 and has been added in the P800. If I accidentally made a choice that would waste some ink, the option to confirm that is nice.
It was, and still is, there on Epson wider format roll feed printers of a similar age: a dialog that asks whether you want to proceed with the MK/PK switch.
I think the bigger question is why continue with the hated PK/MK switching at all? On demand PK and MK would really make a big difference to many people switching from Epson to Canon.
Brian A
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,,,,,,,,,,
I think the bigger question is why continue with the hated PK/MK switching at all? On demand PK and MK would really make a big difference to many people switching from Epson to Canon.
Brian A
Brian, I really wonder about this. There was a time a decade or so ago when this ink switch was a much bigger deal (time and ink consumption) than it is today. These days the round-trip is about 4 ml and the time it takes is very little. So how "hated" it should be, objectively speaking, is dubious, and all the more so when volume printers can schedule production to manage the amount of round-tripping efficiently. Were it me (and I agree I'm not everybody), that one feature alone would motivate me to use Canon rather than Epson printers. We can be sure that Epson knows exactly what their competitors are doing in this area but have made a conscious decision to stick with the switching. I'm guessing now, but I suspect the trade-off would be a larger mechanism affecting the overall size and design of the printer itself. The P800 would be competing with the IPF 5100, which is a special order item from B&H, costing 1700 dollars, weighing 108 pounds and also much larger machine.
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I think the main reason the Canon ipf5100 is so much larger is the dual head system, and like the 4900, vacuum feed. Two heads are bigger than one, and you need room at the sides to park them.
Brian A
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I think the main reason the Canon ipf5100 is so much larger is the dual head system, and like the 4900, vacuum feed. Two heads are bigger than one, and you need room at the sides to park them.
Brian A
Makes sense.
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I happened to surf on alibaba.com and they have images of what epson print heads look like.
The 3800 printheads have 8 connections and nozzles for ink, so there is no room for a 9th, the matte ink.
Same with head for 4900, there is no place for an extra matte black ink....
By the way, direct-to garment (dtg) printers use modified pigment ink printers, amongst them the epson 3800. That is a good sign re. clogging. (and alibaba has new printheads if the dtg printer´s printhead does not work anymore, printing t-shirts must be rough on printheads)
What will the dtg printers do now when the production of epson 3800 has stopped?
I guess the SC P800 is of the same concept as the 3800 and might be clog resistant by design. ...I hope (not talking about the garment printers)
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Brian, I really wonder about this. There was a time a decade or so ago when this ink switch was a much bigger deal (time and ink consumption) than it is today. These days the round-trip is about 4 ml and the time it takes is very little. So how "hated" it should be, objectively speaking, is dubious, and all the more so when volume printers can schedule production to manage the amount of round-tripping efficiently. Were it me (and I agree I'm not everybody), that one feature alone would motivate me to use Canon rather than Epson printers. We can be sure that Epson knows exactly what their competitors are doing in this area but have made a conscious decision to stick with the switching. I'm guessing now, but I suspect the trade-off would be a larger mechanism affecting the overall size and design of the printer itself. The P800 would be competing with the IPF 5100, which is a special order item from B&H, costing 1700 dollars, weighing 108 pounds and also much larger machine.
I think Epson has really dropped the ball on not having this feature since after the Epson 4000 from what I can remember where they added the extra black and hence lost the ability to have dual channels for both PK and MK ink. I think to waste 4mL of ink is actually too much. That is good enough for 4 or so 8x10 prints, or one 16x20. Why should think ink go down the waste tank, and hence make you even have to replace the waste tank sooner. First you pay to buy the ink, then you have to pay more to dispose of it since it isn't going on paper.
Perhaps the bigger issue from what I read though is the ink switching actually perhaps introduces air into the system thereby making the ink switching be a source of some of the clogging. I have no experience since I don't own any Epson printers, but logically this makes sense.
I actually see no reason why anyone would buy an Epson printer these days over the Canon except maybe for the straight paper feed path. It is true that if you want a 17 inch model, the Canon offer is too old and I wouldn't consider a 5100 at this point, but for 24" and over, the Canon should really be your only choice, which is of course just my opinion.
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........... actually perhaps introduces air ................ I have no experience since I don't own any Epson printers, but logically this makes sense.
"Actually" connotes a more definitive position than "perhaps", so "perhaps" you don't really know - even whether "logically this makes sense". And BTW, it's not a matter of logic; it depends on how the machine was designed. Not so say that silly things can't happen, but it would boggle the mind to think that Epson's engineers designed a process to introduce air where there should be none - even if in error - and persisted with that error over the past ten years of accumulated user experience all over the world. Just think about it.
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I think Epson has really dropped the ball on not having this feature since after the Epson 4000 from what I can remember where they added the extra black and hence lost the ability to have dual channels for both PK and MK ink. I think to waste 4mL of ink is actually too much. That is good enough for 4 or so 8x10 prints, or one 16x20. Why should think ink go down the waste tank, and hence make you even have to replace the waste tank sooner. First you pay to buy the ink, then you have to pay more to dispose of it since it isn't going on paper.
Perhaps the bigger issue from what I read though is the ink switching actually perhaps introduces air into the system thereby making the ink switching be a source of some of the clogging. I have no experience since I don't own any Epson printers, but logically this makes sense.
I actually see no reason why anyone would buy an Epson printer these days over the Canon except maybe for the straight paper feed path. It is true that if you want a 17 inch model, the Canon offer is too old and I wouldn't consider a 5100 at this point, but for 24" and over, the Canon should really be your only choice, which is of course just my opinion.
Horse doo doo, to be polite. I have had a 3880 for four+ years now and I finally had to replace the maintenance tank two weeks ago. I regularly print with both PK and MK inks and the amount of wasted ink is really only a minor irritant in my mind. I don't need to print any bigger than 17 inches wide and Epson are the only game in town in that regard. The gamut size is fine and I've not had any complaints about the color in prints that I've sold. My printer has never had a clogged nozzle and I've gone as long as three months between printing.
I guess I might be interested in a p800 particularly becuase of it's monochrome performance but as it looks like my 3880 will never break down I have a rather long wait.
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Black ink changes.....this is purely a guess....however, I suspect there is a good reason to switch the blacks.
For example, if I do a lot of printing with papers using PK ink and little matte printing using MK, the MK line and nozzles will get little to no use for and extended period of time. When I want to use MK, I would expect the nozzles would surely be dried out and clogged solid.
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Black ink changes.....this is purely a guess....however, I suspect there is a good reason to switch the blacks.
For example, if I do a lot of printing with papers using PK ink and little matte printing using MK, the MK line and nozzles will get little to no use for and extended period of time. When I want to use MK, I would expect the nozzles would surely be dried out and clogged solid.
The problem could more likely be expired ink from not using one of them (my case - I haven't printed a sheet of matte in my 4900 since I bought it in 2011). I believe (not 100% sure) MK and PK share the same lines and nozzles, hence the switching, so they are always wet with one or the other. Another concern could be residual ink of the wrong type after switching, but I haven't seen a history of complaints about this.
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The problem could more likely be expired ink from not using one of them (my case - I haven't printed a sheet of matte in my 4900 since I bought it in 2011). I believe (not 100% sure) MK and PK share the same lines and nozzles, hence the switching, so they are always wet with one or the other. Another concern could be residual ink of the wrong type after switching, but I haven't seen a history of complaints about this.
Sorry....I was talk about the reason that Epson design it this way. Not an acute problem which I was having.
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Indeed, it remains a bit of a mystery why Epson has retained the PK/MK switchover design in their latest generation printers. Surely they know that's kind of kludgy. And they can't not know that their competitors have moved beyond such arcane machinations.
But I suspect they also know something else. My guess is that they fully appreciate the design strengths of their older generation. They know the 3880 has, for instance, been very reliable, even as some of their other models have been less so. And they explicitly determined to retain that beneficent design, rather than cast off into uncharted waters.
Much as I'm irritated by the PK/MK switchover, I'd far rather have that in a stone reliable printer, than have the switchover 'fixed,' but at the cost of a episodically problematic printer.
Back to the P800... after a week of pretty heavy use, using different papers, with both PK and MK, with both color and black and white, my first impressions have firmed into more durable conclusions. This is, for the most part, an excellent printer. Image quality is outstanding. ABW output is at a very high level - enough so that a serious B&W printmaker who, nevertheless, did not wish to utilize a 3rd-party RIP or dedicated black-ink inkset, would likely be very pleased with their OEM results from the P800.
IMO, the only real weakness of the printer - alas, not a trivial one - is the necessity to use the front paper feed for virtually all the papers a serious printmaker would ever consider. Unless your printer stand is fairly high, using that front feed will require you to get down on your knees. And it takes a good 12-15 seconds for the printer to pick up the loaded sheet (and you have to wait for it to finish, because you have to then return the center tray to its retracted position). For a machine used sparingly, it wouldn't be an issue. For a several-hour print session, it's a pain in the ass.
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Whether you have to get down on your knees to feed the paper depends on the height of the printer relative to your sitting position.
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IMO, the only real weakness of the printer - alas, not a trivial one - is the necessity to use the front paper feed for virtually all the papers a serious printmaker would ever consider. Unless your printer stand is fairly high, using that front feed will require you to get down on your knees.
Works well for me - I do not even have to get up from my chair to load the paper!
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IMO, the only real weakness of the printer - alas, not a trivial one - is the necessity to use the front paper feed for virtually all the papers a serious printmaker would ever consider. Unless your printer stand is fairly high, using that front feed will require you to get down on your knees. And it takes a good 12-15 seconds for the printer to pick up the loaded sheet (and you have to wait for it to finish, because you have to then return the center tray to its retracted position). For a machine used sparingly, it wouldn't be an issue. For a several-hour print session, it's a pain in the ass.
RATS! This is a problem for me.. I do a lot of printing on my 3880 on thick/fine art paper loading through the rear feed. Although I have not tried a P800, it sounds a lot more cumbersome. I guess I will hang on to my 3880 for as long as possible.
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RATS! This is a problem for me.. I do a lot of printing on my 3880 on thick/fine art paper loading through the rear feed. Although I have not tried a P800, it sounds a lot more cumbersome. I guess I will hang on to my 3880 for as long as possible.
It isn't cumbersome.
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RATS! This is a problem for me.. I do a lot of printing on my 3880 on thick/fine art paper loading through the rear feed. Although I have not tried a P800, it sounds a lot more cumbersome. I guess I will hang on to my 3880 for as long as possible.
I'd hang on to the 3880.....at least until rebates show up for the p800....which will happen. 😀
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5100 Really? Its almost what 9 yrs old.. Real lly Canon Left this space vacant..
P-800 Is what it is.. 4900 is what It is.. Thats The 17" Market..
entry level pro.. I Personally cant wait for the bigger machines and New Ink Sets..
My Only advice is run them often.. Best Of Luck to all..
Cheers
Jim Doyle
Shades Of Paper
856-787-9200
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My new P800 prints color very nicely from Lr CC 2015. When I try to print B&W things go awry. I'm testing this with Epson Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster
1) I've set Lr's Print Module's Color Mgmt to "Managed by Printer"
2) I click "Printer" for the print driver which appears
3) Select Printer Settings
4) "Print Mode:" and "Color Mode:" are grayed out and I can't select ABW
What am I missing????
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My new P800 prints color very nicely from Lr CC 2015. When I try to print B&W things go awry. I'm testing this with Epson Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster
1) I've set Lr's Print Module's Color Mgmt to "Managed by Printer"
2) I click "Printer" for the print driver which appears
3) Select Printer Settings
4) "Print Mode:" and "Color Mode:" are grayed out and I can't select ABW
What am I missing????
I figured it out. I had a preset that I was using and had no idea it affected this aspect of the print driver. I set things to "Default Settings" and voila, ABW is now available. That was a wasted hour of my life. >:(
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Yeah I have managed to do that too, exactly the same
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Thanks, Nora. Its comforting to know I'm not the only one who went down that rat hole.
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Thank you Ron for keeping me from going down that hole.
This is my first ABW printer.
Thanks,
Rich
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Hi Jim,
Could you fill us in a little about what to expect from the new generation of Epson LF printers?
They are putting out some preliminary talk on the Wilhelm site that they have improved both color and bw longevity. Their bw longevity is fine where it is but if they have caught up with Canon or beat them regarding their yellow ink stability that may be something to really brag about.
The five things that they really need to have worked out are ,1. improved color permanence ( better yellow), 2. no more bs ink waste switching between PK and Mk, that's retarded and old fashioned and hopefully, if they really want to rock, 3. one more very light gray ink.
From our conversation awhile back I sense that the replacement for the 11880 might be the only one that they add the new third gray ink to? 4.the other thing that would catch them up to HP and Canon is having a neutral gray inkset so you don't have to mix dots of magenta and cyan to print monochrome, that's old fashioned too. 5. and finally will the pressurized piezo heads continue to clog and drive us nuts.
If they solved all of these 5 things they could overwhelm Canon and destroy HP, if not, they won't.
john
5100 Really? Its almost what 9 yrs old.. Real lly Canon Left this space vacant..
P-800 Is what it is.. 4900 is what It is.. Thats The 17" Market..
entry level pro.. I Personally cant wait for the bigger machines and New Ink Sets..
My Only advice is run them often.. Best Of Luck to all..
Cheers
Jim Doyle
Shades Of Paper
856-787-9200
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I read on a german site somewhere that the SC P800 is three months delayed, and someone else posted they come august 12
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I read on a german site somewhere that the SC P800 is three months delayed, and someone else posted they come august 12
They are in stock at B&H in New York, as well as at Vistek and Henrys in Toronto, and elsewhere in North America.
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I bought mine in the UK from wex photographic, dpsb.co.uk have them as well.
The roll attachment in the UK is shipping with a free roll of Lustre paper, a good deal.
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Just an aside from the new Epson printer, last week my 9900 stopped printing yellow. It was not a block but necessitated a trip to the Printer doctor. In order to keep up output in the busiest time for years I fired up my old 9800. It had been sitting for 5 years. One light clean and not a clogged nozzle. Perfect neutral monochrome print in full 8 inks, all at least 5 years old. The 9900 needs de-clogging every couple of prints. Of course the 9800 is terribly slow ,guzzles ink on a black change and has a slightly uneven gamut, especially in red but it is much more reliable than the next generation. Thanks for the excellent review. My limited experience with the P800 indicates a superior clarity in deep reds and blues, but it's early days. I may have more to say in 6 months.
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For those with the P800 and experience with the 3880:
How is the built quality of the P800 compared with the 3880?
I always found the 3880 to be somewhat lightly built, especially the front door that covers the output tray.
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For those with the P800 and experience with the 3880:
How is the built quality of the P800 compared with the 3880?
I always found the 3880 to be somewhat lightly built, especially the front door that covers the output tray.
Very similar build quality. I agree the front door of the 3800/3880 feels a little light, but it's not a stressed component, so not sure I'd worry too much about that.
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Did Epson change the color of the gray inks on this new inkset to arrive at a neutral hue like Canon and HP, or is it the same ole greenish/brown Epson gray? If they did not change them that will be sad for the new LF machines coming online, especially the 11880 replacement that is rumored to have 3 grays and two black inks. Out of QTR you will still have to add cyan and magenta inks to neutralize them and that's not good.
john
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Did Epson change the color of the gray inks on this new inkset to arrive at a neutral hue like Canon and HP, or is it the same ole greenish/brown Epson gray? If they did not change them that will be sad for the new LF machines coming online, especially the 11880 replacement that is rumored to have 3 grays and two black inks. Out of QTR you will still have to add cyan and magenta inks to neutralize them and that's not good.
john
The data given in Figure 2 of my article is pretty representative of the kinds of deviations from 0 you should expect in the a* and b* channels. I do have Lab readouts for a number of papers using the full quarter-tone range provided in the Outback printer evaluation target image. Variances around 0 tend to be within 1/2 a level; however, in some cases can go as high as 1 or so. The most neutral results I obtained were with Epson HPN in ABW mode. There is no systematic or obvious bias to greenish/brown gray emerging from the testing I did.
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The data given in Figure 2 of my article is pretty representative of the kinds of deviations from 0 you should expect in the a* and b* channels. I do have Lab readouts for a number of papers using the full quarter-tone range provided in the Outback printer evaluation target image. Variances around 0 tend to be within 1/2 a level; however, in some cases can go as high as 1 or so. The most neutral results I obtained were with Epson HPN in ABW mode. There is no systematic or obvious bias to greenish/brown gray emerging from the testing I did.
Would that be similar to your 3880 testing? Or is there a true gray color bias on the 3880?
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The P800 exhibited considerably more neutral a* and b* values in the shadow tones than the 3880. Deviations from zero were generally larger with HPN printed in the 3880.
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I meant to attach some data. Here it is.
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Thanks for the great review and in-depth contribution to this thread, Mark.
I would like to touch on the old war of Canon vs Epson. I have an old i9900 that has died, and I have lost touch with where the old war is at, these days. Whenever I see a review of either brand in this class of printer, comments are glowing. I wouldn't mind some unbiased advice on which brand/models I should be looking at in this class, as a re-entrant buyer.
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I would like to touch on the old war of Canon vs Epson. I have an old i9900 that has died, and I have lost touch with where the old war is at, these days. Whenever I see a review of either brand in this class of printer, comments are glowing. I wouldn't mind some unbiased advice on which brand/models I should be looking at in this class, as a re-entrant buyer.
Would this be best in a new thread with a new title?
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I would like to touch on the old war of Canon vs Epson.
No thank you...not part of this thread...please!
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I agree with Bob and Jeff. And I would add - the wrong way of looking at this question is through the eyes of "war". These are just competing machines using different technologies. Each technology has its own merits and issues, and some of these aspects will be more or less important to different people for different reasons. So yes.......another thread please.
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Perhaps I'll rephrase the question -- I didn't mean to open a whole new thread, I only want to know where the P800 stands.
Does the P800 stand alone in the market or does it have any worthy competitors beyond Epson that are truly deserving alternatives? And what models might they be?
I thought Mark might be well-informed enough to help me. His review seems to ignore all other brands -- that would normally be considered quite an oversight in most product reviews. Is that because Epson is the only worthy choice?
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Does the P800 stand alone in the market or does it have any worthy competitors beyond Epson that are truly deserving alternatives? And what models might they be?
What are your requirements and desires for a photo printer? What sort of images will you print? How often? On what papers? Etc.
From there, choices can be made.
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I thought Mark might be well-informed enough to help me. His review seems to ignore all other brands -- that would normally be considered quite an oversight in most product reviews. Is that because Epson is the only worthy choice?
On whose authority is it an "oversight"? Reviews can be cast in many different ways depending on the purposes of the review and the means of the reviewers. I have never owned or used a Canon printer and no-one is paying me to write reviews or equip myself to do so - this is all voluntary based on what we have access to. So your assumption that I am well-informed enough to help you on a choice between Canon and Epson is I regret incorrect. I would be pleased to help where I have in-depth knowledge of the product, but in the case of Canon I don't. Sorry. Perhaps there are other resources on the Internet comparing these products.
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The SC P800 might typically appeal to photographers who go off travelling for some weeks now and then, and do not print huge volumes of prints when they print. The roll thing is not powered, and the inks are small.
Therefore it might be interesting if some other types of printers are trouble-free when one comes home after being away for a few weeks, and not just the first year or the second, but the third year too.
The SC P800 looks promising so far
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The SC P800 looks promising so far
I was careful in my review not to make any firm predictions on the clogging issue. I think it could reveal itself as promising once enough users have left them off for weeks at a time and can resume printing with no more than one or two rounds of nozzle cleaning. Those reports have yet to come in because the product is so new, so time will tell.
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I was careful in my review not to make any firm predictions on the clogging issue. I think it could reveal itself as promising once enough users have left them off for weeks at a time and can resume printing with no more than one or two rounds of nozzle cleaning. Those reports have yet to come in because the product is so new, so time will tell.
Indeed. The problem is that the prints it makes are so nice that it's hard to leave off!
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Having moved from the 3800 which had a permanently blocked magenta channel... (I've tried it all over the last year) I got the p800, this review was helpful in making me press the trigger.
So far I'm delighted with the printer, some thoughts, reflections and questions...
1. When setting up a custom paper size setting I was surprised to find that the p800 permits a border of 0mm on custom sizes. I wondered if this indicates a higher degree of accuracy in the operation of the print head. I was pleased to see this as it means I could print close to the edge of the custom size.
2. I experimentally printed a square image from my iPhone over WiFi. The default behaviour was to then stretch the image to print borderless, in my case on A4 paper. The image had insufficient resolution so I ended up with a poor borderless image. As I had intended to avoid borderless printing because of the mess it made to my 3800 I was a bit irritated and worried about ink mess inside the printer. Exploration of the ink pads on the platen with my finger didn't find any ink. Instead the end of my finger was just picking up some light oil. Maybe I'd need to print more borderless prints to see the overspray appear. I wonder if the overspray is less with this printer.
3. :-) There is a dedicated iPhone app for printing direct to the printer I discovered after doing this.
4. Prints are substantially more impressive than those printed with the 3800, a big upgrade. I'd read that the 3800 to 3880 difference wasn't that big, similarly from 3880 to p800, but two jumps together is impressive. One image I printed has a strong orange object on silver, the print looks amazing on Hahnemule matt paper, like a hexachrome print.
5. Initially I found the front loading of anything other than a few papers to be very irritating at first, initially the loading process seemed onerous, but wasn't so bad after a couple of goes. However it isn't convenient that you can't print sheet art media of any reasonably thickness from the sheet feeder. For some of my uses I want to print sheets not from a roll as I make hand made books and for cost reasons wish to use paper manually cut from a 24" roll so that I get 17" width sheets with the grain running in the short direction. Hahnlemule art paper with short grain is up to 3x as expensive as long grain. I can't understand why the sheet feeder cannot accommodate a matt art paper of the same weight and thickness as a standard heavyweight matt paper. I'm going to try working around this by selecting the same setting as for my heavyweight matt paper and then custom setting the paper thickness etc. in the driver settings. I can't see why this won't work. Anyone think this won't work?
6. I really like the way that the paper output support is separate from the printer front door. My 3800 front door eventually became worn from opening and closing and it looks like the p800 is more sturdy.
7. Overall the quality level of the printer and its output appears well improved. The size of the printer is compact for a machine that can print a decently large print.
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I can't understand why the sheet feeder cannot accommodate a matt art paper of the same weight and thickness as a standard heavyweight matt paper. I'm going to try working around this by selecting the same setting as for my heavyweight matt paper and then custom setting the paper thickness etc. in the driver settings. I can't see why this won't work. Anyone think this won't work?
When you use the sheet feeder on top, the paper needs to bend from a near vertical to a horizontal position for the print head to move across it, and this process is not suitable with thick heavy papers. That's why those papers are fed through the front paper feed. This is a purely "paper-mechanics" issue that driver settings won't affect one way or another. Those driver settings are for situations such as head strikes, to make sure there is enough clearance between the paper and the head.
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Mark and others: Has anyone tried printing greeting card stock with the 800? I'm thinking of something in the 7x10 Red River or Moab walk of life.
I've been wondering about buying either the Canon Pixma Pro 1 or the Epson 800, principally for printing cards. I don't really understand if either printer copes well with stock the dimension of pre-scored cards, and whether the pre-scoring would prevent loading a stack of cards into the feeder transport. The Canon Pro 1 makes very nice prints, apparently.
I do know that our 4900 and 9900 do not make card printing easy.
Many thanks,
John Caldwell
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I can't advise on this as I did not test it.
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I have seen the SC P800 demonstrated with a stack of moab paper for photo book.
Like make a photo book in Lightroom, save as jpg, open again in Lightroom, and print uneven pages from the top tray all at once, turn the stack and print the other sides.
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Hey Nora, sounds good, I'll have to check out the Moab papers. I know that they have some short grain papers. I think has to be ordered from the US.
I like the 'drum leaf' binding, you get a really solid book without stitching and only need one sided paper which is easier to find.
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Moab has books ; I thing they are meant for wedding albums and portfolios for photographers. They have several types of double sided paper that is made for the albums. There are screws holding the paper when you put the paper in the book. This is in Europe.
The idea is that you make the book in Lightroom, including the background . The P800 prints borderless and the whole stack, and you turn the stack (best to practice on plain paper...) and print the other side, and you are finished and just need to put it in the cover and fix the screws.
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How is the P800 with glossy type papers, like Luster? Since it does not have gloss optimation ink.
How is black and white on luster paper?
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How is the P800 with glossy type papers, like Luster? Since it does not have gloss optimation ink.
How is black and white on luster paper?
I have been very satisfied with Black & White prints using ABW on Canson Baryta Photographique with the P800.
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How is the P800 with glossy type papers, like Luster? Since it does not have gloss optimation ink.
How is black and white on luster paper?
Some time ago I wrote up my informal results obtained with the 3880: http://www.robertrockefeller.com/2010/07/18/a-gloss-differential-study-for-the-epson-3880/.
It will be interesting to see what others find about the P800. I'm sticking with the 3880 (for now).
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I need to print bw on cheap Luster or pearl paper, not expensive baryta
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How is the P800 with glossy type papers, like Luster? Since it does not have gloss optimation ink.
How is black and white on luster paper?
I've only used Epson Premium Luster but both B&W and color performed well at 1440 dpi. Perhaps not quite as well as my Z3100 with GLOP but I didn't see anything to complain about. I did not have any side by side comparisons though.
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How is the P800 with glossy type papers, like Luster? Since it does not have gloss optimation ink.
How is black and white on luster paper?
I tested this quite a bit during my own review of the P800, where I had a 10" roll of what I'd call my 'everyday' lustre paper - a 300gsm one from a local supplier
See the examples in the review about half way down
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/printer/epson-sc_p800_review.html
(http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/content_images_2/sc-p800_pix/printing_pano.jpg)
There are quite a few photos where I've made sure to get a reflection of lighting on the print to get a feel for the reflection - I also had a 16" roll of Epson PGPP which I fitted some long panoramic prints onto - they looked very good.
Certainly at a standard I'd be happy supplying to clients (I have an iPF8300 here so test Canon and Epson)
For B&W I made some QTR correction profiles for several papers, including that 300gsm Lustre one - the measurements and curves are in the article - once again good looking B&W using the ABW mode.
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Black ink changes.....this is purely a guess....however, I suspect there is a good reason to switch the blacks.
For example, if I do a lot of printing with papers using PK ink and little matte printing using MK, the MK line and nozzles will get little to no use for and extended period of time. When I want to use MK, I would expect the nozzles would surely be dried out and clogged solid.
I read a report somewhere, not sure which forum, of someone who had a problem like this. After only printing using PK they eventually did a switch to MK and got nothing from that channel. So they switched back to PK which had been working well, and got nothing either. As I recall, it turned out that there was a lot of sedimentation around the ink selector switch, and it took quite some flushing to clear this. I *think* this was OEM rather than 3rd party. This was only one instance and perhaps they were unlucky. I print on both kinds of papers and see the switching involved as a forum of insurance against this, unlikely as it may be. (The nozzles in the head should be unaffected, as PK and MK use the same ones.)
As Mark indicated in his review, only months of use by many consumers will provide the empirical data needed to determine under what circumstances the P800 might clog. But given that its basic head design is taken from the 3800/3880 - easily the most reliable pigment printer Epson has ever sold - my guess is that the P800 will continue that steadfast tradition.
I fully agree that only time will answer this question conclusively. But there are some people still able to source a 3880 and who are undecided which way to jump. There are several P800s out there in forum members' hands now. Has anyone been able to do a direct comparison to see how similar they look internally and how they seem to behave? Might give us a little more to go on regarding the likely behavior of the P800, other than the apparently similarity of the head.
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Thanks Keith for the pictures with the light reflections.
Maybe try a report showing how easy it is supposed to print a wedding album by preparing it in Lightroom, print to jpg, open again in LR, and print the whole stack on the P800, then turning and printing the other side? On double-sided paper.
It is supposed to work like that they say.
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....... But there are some people still able to source a 3880 and who are undecided which way to jump. There are several P800s out there in forum members' hands now. Has anyone been able to do a direct comparison to see how similar they look internally and how they seem to behave? Might give us a little more to go on regarding the likely behavior of the P800, other than the apparently similarity of the head.
I'm not convinced this would be a viable shortcut for answering the behaviour question in respect of clogs/cleaning. By "how they look internally" you would have to mean (on a comparative basis between the models) the internal structural and operational details of the whole ink transport, capping and cleaning assemblies, the print head and - not to be forgotten - the ink chemistry. What users are specialized enough to make reliable sense of all that? As I mentioned in my review, time will tell.
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Thanks Keith for the pictures with the light reflections.
Maybe try a report showing how easy it is supposed to print a wedding album by preparing it in Lightroom, print to jpg, open again in LR, and print the whole stack on the P800, then turning and printing the other side? On double-sided paper.
It is supposed to work like that they say.
Thanks, although not a chance for such a report from me, since the printer had to go back to Epson, but more importantly I neither use Lightroom, or shoot weddings :-) :-)
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Okay, then a tip for someone else! A report from a photographer using it for a slightly complicated job which would be a bit time-consuming with a large printer feeding it one sheet at a time with skew check on each sheet.
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Mine also had to go back to Epson and I too don't shoot weddings.
HOWEVER, to test what you are after, for anyone who has this printer, it would be sufficient to run a few sheets of two-sided paper through the printer on both sides using Epson's recommended procedure to see how it handles the paper.
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Okay, then a tip for someone else! A report from a photographer using it for a slightly complicated job which would be a bit time-consuming with a large printer feeding it one sheet at a time with skew check on each sheet.
Skew check is important in general because (a) you don't want skewed prints, and (b) if the paper is feeding through with a skew, while it may start OK, it could at some point stutter and then jam, which can create other issues. Not good. It only uses time if the paper is skewed and needs to/should be reset. As for "one sheet at a time", it depends on whether the paper you are using needs to go through the one feed or the other.