Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: The View on June 21, 2015, 07:19:18 pm

Title: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: The View on June 21, 2015, 07:19:18 pm
I just upgraded to cop 8.3 and it was the worst software upgrade I have ever experienced.

All image previews are blurry - so bad I cannot work with this software.

Also, thousands of images got dropped from the catalog when upgrading.

I have seen one thread on the capture one forum that has blurry image previews, but the thread petered out without a resolution.


Has anybody of you experienced blurry previews and missing images?

What have you done to resolve the issue.


Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 22, 2015, 03:48:44 am
Has anybody of you experienced blurry previews and missing images?

What have you done to resolve the issue.

Hi,

No issues with 8.3 sofar. I did have a brief period of preview corruptions with 8.2 after an update of the video drivers. I temporarily switched off hardware acelleration and all was fine again. When a new videodriver was released, and 8.3 arrived, I switched hardware acceleration on again and all seems fine.

BTW I'm on Windows 7 x64, Capture One Pro 8.3 64-bit, build 8.3.0.83.

I don't do it every time, but a full uninstall (instructions on the PhaseOne knowledge base for different OS versions) and reinstall may solve issues that are related to remnants of older versions lurking about, although they should normally be stored in their separate folders and not interfere.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: The View on June 22, 2015, 12:11:15 pm
Thanks, it's good to hear that I'm not the only one who got blurry previews, and that the issue was resolved.


Yes, a full uninstall was my next step.

I'm on OS X Mavericks.


I'll also delete the corrupted database. Gladly I made a full copy of the database (including previews) before I updated. I also wonder why so many folders didn't get imported. This way I'd have to check folder after folder if everything was there....

Phase One support recommended to turn off "hardware acceleration".

I wonder why? Or is turning it off temporarily - and then back on - do anything good?

Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 22, 2015, 12:40:08 pm
Phase One support recommended to turn off "hardware acceleration".

I wonder why? Or is turning it off temporarily - and then back on - do anything good?

There are many possible configurations of Graphics cards with GPUs and other computer hardware, and versions of video drivers. There is always a possibility that a specific configuration was not tested yet. Also, issues with one driver version may (dis)appear with another (later ore earlier one).

So when issues show up, all parties will need to find if their software is causing the issues, which may take some time. After a while things may be solved and the acceleration can be turned on again. Just switching it off and then on again is unlikely to solve anything.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: The View on June 23, 2015, 12:31:08 pm
My retina MacBook pro is 2 1/2 years old. The graphics card should be known by Phase One I guess....?
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: The View on June 23, 2015, 02:41:00 pm
I erased Capture One 8 completely from my system.

Re-installed. The same blurry images.

Contacted Phase One support.

They requested a "log" file, but their upload link is not working. So I asked them to give me an email address to send them the file.

In a snotty tone they replied "they give not out" email addresses. Imagine any company doing that! You are just a customer - you do not deserve being given an email address. The notion of phone support hasn't even come to them yet.

Phase One support is utterly incompetent and useless.

As they leave me out in the rain I will go downgrade to 7.


Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: Jimmy D Uptain on June 24, 2015, 07:27:56 am
I erased Capture One 8 completely from my system.

Re-installed. The same blurry images.

Contacted Phase One support.

They requested a "log" file, but their upload link is not working. So I asked them to give me an email address to send them the file.

In a snotty tone they replied "they give not out" email addresses. Imagine any company doing that! You are just a customer - you do not deserve being given an email address. The notion of phone support hasn't even come to them yet.

Phase One support is utterly incompetent and useless.

As they leave me out in the rain I will go downgrade to 7.

Well let me save you some time with Phase One's support.

1. You aren't having a problem, we need proof.
2. You have proof, oh. Then it's your hardware.
3. Oh I see, your hardware is up to par.
4. It's an intentional design. Or we cannot reproduce the problem.
5. Support case closed.


Every-time those guys piss me off, I swear off C1 for good. Then I run across an image where LR doesn't do it for me.
I said once before that C1 was like that crazy ex-girlfriend. Every-time you wanna give her another go, you realize why you left her.
Only to keep going back because she's has a certain "quality"



Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: ario on June 24, 2015, 07:59:52 am
This is not my  experience. Every time I had a problem with Capture One, which I have been using for more than ten years, I got fast and effective support by the support crew.
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: Jimmy D Uptain on June 24, 2015, 08:42:35 am
This is not my  experience. Every time I had a problem with Capture One, which I have been using for more than ten years, I got fast and effective support by the support crew.

To be quite honest, it seems the support has been lacking since the introduction of catalogs. Before that, I cannot remember having problems.
Maybe my support issues were just of a different nature than yours. I don't really know.
I'd love to see a poll though  ;D
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 24, 2015, 12:40:18 pm
To be quite honest, it seems the support has been lacking since the introduction of catalogs. Before that, I cannot remember having problems.
Maybe my support issues were just of a different nature than yours. I don't really know.
I'd love to see a poll though  ;D

The expanded Catalogs functionality may have coincided with requirements for hardware that offers faster/more GPU support. Looking at the trouble that Adobe (with much larger resources) still has with Lightroom 6 (with GPU support its often slower  ??? ), i think Phase One is not doing too bad. There will always be some issues due to the vast number of possible hardware combinations, and the continuously changing software / OS environment. My few contacts with support have always been resolved to my satisfaction, but I do tend to supply them with an already well analyzed puzzle, clearly documented, and double verified.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: The View on June 26, 2015, 12:18:35 am
The weird thing is, that now CO 7 has also blurry previews.

Not sure if this is possible, but it feels like the update has messed with some software on my computer that processes RAW images.

The previews on Adobe Bridge are as usual.

The problem gets less the more you get to 100%, so I guess it has to do how other percentage views are computed.

Older versions of Photoshop had this thing "built in" - at e.g. 45% the image quality was bad, you needed to stay with 50%, 25%, and so on. Newer versions of PHotoshop give a good representation of the image at various zoom percentages - this has gotten so much better over the years!

I just wonder why - after removing CO completely off my system, this now affects even version 7.

Is CO using some part of the Mac operating software - and this software part got damaged through the upgrade, and now I have this bad previews?


PS: by the way, the phase one website seems to no longer work with Firefox. Their "attach file" link is not clickable in Firefox. it took quite a bit back and forth to establish this, while support insisted there was a "browse"button to upload files.
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: Jimmy D Uptain on June 26, 2015, 07:16:52 am
The expanded Catalogs functionality may have coincided with requirements for hardware that offers faster/more GPU support. Looking at the trouble that Adobe (with much larger resources) still has with Lightroom 6 (with GPU support its often slower  ??? ), i think Phase One is not doing too bad. There will always be some issues due to the vast number of possible hardware combinations, and the continuously changing software / OS environment. My few contacts with support have always been resolved to my satisfaction, but I do tend to supply them with an already well analyzed puzzle, clearly documented, and double verified.

Cheers,
Bart

Yeah, I noticed similar catalog issues with this latest version of Lightroom.
If Phase One would just get Media Pro up to snuff and leave C1 catalogs out of the equation, they may have something there.
I have very little, if any, issues with Media Pro catalog. Its fast and stable.(on my machine) The biggest problem with it, is lack of color management.

I agree with your statement about the OS issues. It seems that software companies are more concerned with adding bells and whistles rather than building a robust OS.
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 26, 2015, 07:18:19 am
The weird thing is, that now CO 7 has also blurry previews.

Not sure if this is possible, but it feels like the update has messed with some software on my computer that processes RAW images.

Hi,

Capture One creates a sub-directory for the previews. Are you looking at the same ones that got corrupted with V8? Have you tried deleting (or temporarily moving) the contents of that directory, and let C1 V7 regenerate them? Have you already tried to do that with V8, removing the corrupt ones and regenerate? I'm not sure if you are using Sessions or a Catalog, and if the latter how it references the files (in catalog or at original location), so you'll have to search for the previews on your setup.

Quote
The previews on Adobe Bridge are as usual.

They are different previews.

Quote
The problem gets less the more you get to 100%, so I guess it has to do how other percentage views are computed.

Could also be related to GPU hardware acceleration.

Quote
I just wonder why - after removing CO completely off my system, this now affects even version 7.

Re-use of corrupt previews?

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: ario on June 26, 2015, 11:39:25 am

If Phase One would just get Media Pro up to snuff and leave C1 catalogs out of the equation, they may have something there.

I do hope CO will continue with the catalog approach, if do not like to use the catalogs just use CO in "browser mode"
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: The View on June 28, 2015, 03:44:37 pm
Thank you, Bart.

Is it possible to have CO 8 re-do the previews?

I had an issue once with Bridge and I simply purged the cache and rebuilt all previews.


How would you do that in CO 8?

PS: when I first updated to CO 8 it converted the catalog - in under a minute. Shouldn't be that fast, should it? Maybe it messed up the previews?

I deleted the catalog and pulled an identical copy off my hard drive (45 Gb including all previews)

The second time it took 20 minutes to convert the catalog to CO 8 - but the results were the same: blurry previews.
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: mgrayson on June 28, 2015, 03:55:35 pm
What size previews is C1 making?

On the Mac version, under Preferences, the second tab is Images. The first item under that is Preview Size. Mine is set at 2560 pixels. Is yours set smaller?

--Matt
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 29, 2015, 03:36:13 am
Is it possible to have CO 8 re-do the previews?

https://captureintegration.com/quick-tips-speed-up-capture-one-pro/

Not sure if this works the same between catalogs and sessions, and on Mac and Windows OS, so make copies before experimenting.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: The View on June 29, 2015, 03:54:43 am
Maybe if I changed the preview size from 2560 pixels to 2880.

The article says that the preview size should be a bit larger than the actual monitor's resolution - which is in my case 2560 pixels.

But on second thought this doesn't sound reasonable. To shoehorn a 2880 pixel preview into a 2560 pixel monitor can only result in image degradation.
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 29, 2015, 04:36:54 am
Maybe if I changed the preview size from 2560 pixels to 2880.

The article says that the preview size should be a bit larger than the actual monitor's resolution - which is in my case 2560 pixels.

But on second thought this doesn't sound reasonable. To shoehorn a 2880 pixel preview into a 2560 pixel monitor can only result in image degradation.

From the article that I linked:
Quote
When an image is viewed at a size smaller than the generated proxy, it uses the preview from this smaller file rather than regenerating directly from the original raw file. This not only saves your computer memory and resources, it is significantly faster as well.

So this is for speed reasons when viewing small previews of a larger image, and only affects smaller display than the proxy was generated at. This should hardly affect image quality, because after all you are already looking at a down-sampled version of your original. When you zoom in, the image will be generated from (a crop of) the larger original.

You'll need to remove the existing previews, because changing the preference settings, only affects new previews made after the change in preferences. To make sure, restart the application before you switch back to a directory without previews.

So if you think the previews are blurry, try to zoom in, to just a little more than the preview size. Does the image quality change? If it doesn't, then all image display downsampling is affected. The cause may be in the hardware acceleration, you'll have to try it with it switched on and off and compare, and send  screen copies to Phase support so they can attempt to solve issues.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: qwz on July 01, 2015, 03:39:14 am
I found this happens when i open session created in CO7 end nothing happens until i selected all session images and upgraded process to CO8 for them.
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 01, 2015, 06:40:09 am
I found this happens when i open session created in CO7 end nothing happens until i selected all session images and upgraded process to CO8 for them.

Upgrading the process version can result in (slightly) different looking images, so it makes sense that the previews are renewed. If there is an issue with generating the previews on certain hardware configurations, then those images will obviously be affected. Seems logical to me, and still point in the direction of a combination of hardware/drivers as the root cause, because not everybody is affected.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on July 01, 2015, 11:31:45 am
I just noticed that there is a version update available, to V 8.3.1 .
Maybe that changes something?

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: David Edge on July 11, 2015, 03:26:36 pm
Maybe some help here:

https://captureintegration.com/answers-to-our-top-10-capture-one-support-calls/
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: The View on August 22, 2015, 01:37:29 pm
I still have the problem with blurry previews.

I turned open CL on and off and it does not help.

Landscape images are cannot be processed in CO 8 because all leafs and grass is turned into foam without detail. It is like my 5D III turned into a 3 megapixel camera.

Images put out by CO 8 are good and sharp. A preview of the output in Bridge (sRGB only, as Bridge CS6 cannot see files in their native color space) far outdo the preview in CO 8 (which displays a wider color gamut on my wide gamut Nec pa271w and should be superior)

I checked out Camera RAW, and the previews are blurry as well.

Just in case, I have put in another support case with Phase One, but I am getting the suspicion that one or both graphics cards in my retina MacBook Pro are bad.

Today I'll contact with Applecare.
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: The View on August 23, 2015, 12:58:25 am
Today I went to the Apple store and they ran a stress test on my machine, which it passed.

But they told me I'm not the only one with such problems whose machines passed the stress test.

I'm now certain that it's my computer.

Because I opened up the images in Camera RAW - and they were also blurry.

Applecare mentioned it might be bad RAM on my graphics card.
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on August 23, 2015, 04:09:47 am
Today I went to the Apple store and they ran a stress test on my machine, which it passed.

But they told me I'm not the only one with such problems whose machines passed the stress test.

I'm now certain that it's my computer.

Because I opened up the images in Camera RAW - and they were also blurry.

Applecare mentioned it might be bad RAM on my graphics card.


Hi,

That's what makes it so difficult for the folks at Phase One to find a solution. They need to be able and reproduce the issue first, only then can they try and drill down to probable causes. Maybe it's the hardware, maybe not. There was a recent thread (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102754.msg846163#msg846163) about catalog corruption that seems to be caused by Nikon NX altering the Raws, making them act up for other Raw processors...

Are your Raws, Nikon altered ones by any chance? Did you share a Raw fille with Capture One's support people to verify if they can reproduce the issue on other hardware?

Cheers,
Bart
Title: SOLVED: Blurry Previews
Post by: The View on August 23, 2015, 03:56:05 pm
Logic board/graphics card were replaced on my retina MacBook Pro.

The previews are better now, and lost their blurriness.


Looks like the graphics card was the issue.


Question: Should I rebuild all previews? Even though the previews are now better, they were created with the old graphics card.

I think I need to just delete the folder with the previews, correct? If yes, do you know where that folder is located?


PS: Tried to put the result into the original thread title, but it looks like one cannot edit that thread title.
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: The View on September 03, 2015, 05:17:33 pm
Update:

Upon further examination I must say the preview quality of CO 8 does not match the real output quality.

Reason: most likely that the preview is a heavily compressed JPEG.


As a consequence you are basically flying blind in regard to detail when editing images. The preset sharpening of CO 8 is very aggressive, and it's easy to overshoot that way.

For future editions and more powerful computers it would be great to have the RAW data directly processed to a screen image instead of using a compressed jpeg.

It's a problem that all RAW processors share and likely is put in place as our computers may not be powerful enough to do RAW processing on the fly for WYSIWYG editing.

Can you imagine the calculating power you'd need to process a 60 or 80 MP image from a mf back?

So, there's really room for improvement.
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on September 03, 2015, 06:13:37 pm
Update:

Upon further examination I must say the preview quality of CO 8 does not match the real output quality.

Reason: most likely that the preview is a heavily compressed JPEG.

Hi,

At what zoom level? The previews that are created when importing the file are limited in (user defined) size, when zooming in further the preview is generated from the Raw data itself (although only the part of the image that fits the display).

Quote
The preset sharpening of CO 8 is very aggressive, and it's easy to overshoot that way.

It's easy enough to change that to a user defined default style that is applied upon importing the files.

Quote
It's a problem that all RAW processors share and likely is put in place as our computers may not be powerful enough to do RAW processing on the fly for WYSIWYG editing.

Can you imagine the calculating power you'd need to process a 60 or 80 MP image from a mf back?

Since that wouldn't fit most displays at 100% zoom, only the part that is displayed needs to be rendered on-the-fly, and given the bandwidth of most videocard pipelines, at 8-bit/channel. Any zoom level other than 100% will be unreliable, due to resampling artifacts.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: update to COP 8.3 - all image previews blurry - thousand of images missing
Post by: David Grover / Phase One on September 04, 2015, 04:50:39 am
+1 to Bart.

There is nothing inferior about the way Capture One shows previews.

Firstly they are not 'heavily compressed' Jpeg.

What resolution is your monitor and what resolution are the previews set to?  Thats probably the two most important questions!  :)

On my MBP retina I have no problems working with 80MP files.  Its true you need a decent system for heavy files like this, but I am still only using a laptop.  It is more than adequate.

David