Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: svaughan on February 16, 2006, 07:23:17 am
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I am using Photoshop CS to edit my prints. I use the Adobe RGB 1998 as my work space, and I have calibrated my monitor using the Eye One Display meter.
When I am done with my contrast adjustments, sharpening and ready to print, my print comes out slightly darker than on my screen.
I am using some of the standard printer profiles printing on premium epson paper, and have even used a custom made on my brother had, as he has the same printer. On the web you can get some nice printer profiles for the Epson.
Any suggestions how to correct this darkness difference?
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I am using Photoshop CS to edit my prints. I use the Adobe RGB 1998 as my work space, and I have calibrated my monitor using the Eye One Display meter.
When I am done with my contrast adjustments, sharpening and ready to print, my print comes out slightly darker than on my screen.
I am using some of the standard printer profiles printing on premium epson paper, and have even used a custom made on my brother had, as he has the same printer. On the web you can get some nice printer profiles for the Epson.
Any suggestions how to correct this darkness difference?
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Didi you set your display brightness to ~120cd/m2 when you calibrated your monitor?
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Assuming everything is OK in your workflow, and callibration the next step is to consider the viewing conditions. You need to make sure you're viewing the print in good light - I use a 50watt solux, but there are viewing stands that can get quite expensive.
Finally, you will never get the exact same feel from a print vs screen due to the inherent difference between transmitted and reflected light.
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I think another thing that'll throw ya is room brightness vs monitor brightness. Given that your prints are darker than the monitor, your room could be too dark for your monitor's brightness setting.
Since you have the EyeOne, check that the brightness of your working conditions are in the suggested range. If your room illumination is too low and you can't change that, then re-profile using a lower monitor brightness target.
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I second Dale's comment. I always thought my prints were slightly-to-somewhat darker than the monitor, until I happened to carry one into a room lit more brightly and uniformly, and then things matched much better. Check a print under different lighting conditions and see if it's still "too dark".
Lisa
P.S. To clarify, my comment is sort of the "flip side" of Dale's. Either the monitor or the print can look "wrong" when the lighting conditions under which they're viewed are not very well controlled and consistent with your profiles etc.
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"Most" Monitor Profile "setups" have the monitor's Contrast set to the highest level, and the Brightness set to a "lower", adjustable level. Make a print-- then adjust the monitor's Brightness level to match the print--- ie-- if your prints are too dark--lower the brightness of the monitor accordingly. If you get it right, the next attempt should match the brightness of the monitor.
Leigh
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IME, most ost of the time when the prints come off the printer darker than what shows on a profiled monitor, it is a result of double-profiling with the printer's print driver. To avoid this, you have to be sure ALL color management is turned off in the print driver -- and this setting does not always hold and often must be turned off for every new printing session.
Once you have confirmed that, then make sure you are applying the proper paper profile in your printing program and make sure your rendering intent is either perceptual or relative colorimetric (unless you have good reason to use absolute colorimetric).
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At the risk of stating the obvious, all prints will look darker in poor light. If your monitor is calibrated to a D65 standard (daylight), then the print should be viewed in daylight, or simulated daylight. The difficulty of comparing print output to monitor is usually greater in the evening with artificial light. For this reason, all my light bulbs are of the energy saving 'daylight' type. Sometimes, depending on brand, D65 is actually specified on the back of the package. I have one such light directly above my monitor.
However, this issue in general has broader ramifications. We spend a lot of time fussing over monitor calibration, trying to get a perfect match, but often have little control over the final viewing conditions of the print. This is analogous to spending a lot of money on a pair of very accurate loudspeakers, then placing them in a room with indifferent, average or even poor acoustics.
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Jack, the point about the printer settings holding properly is a well-known and unresolved issue with Mac O/S, but not with Windows XP (for a change!) - so one would need to know which O/x svaughan is using to know whether this may be the problem - but the more general point about competitive management is correct - and deadly.
We also don't know what kind of monitor is being used - how old it is, CRT or LCD. If it is an older CRT, it could be starting to fade, so the same colour numbers would look "brighter" (actually more feint) on the monitor than they should appear in print. If the monitor calibration package is a good one and it is being used properly, it should not be necessary to intervene after the fact and adjust the brightness. The brightness of the monitor should be adjusted as part of the calibration, e.g. as it works with ColorEyes Display.
I agree with Tim Gray and Ray about the illumination conditions. I use a ceiling track of Solux 50 Watt bulbs to illuminate my work-space for print viewing. Makes a big difference even how the print is positioned or tilted under the light (with matte papers anyhow).
Something that can be elusive unless one has the habit - it is important to make one's final luminsity adjustments with Soft Proof active. Soft proof, if properly set-up, should come very close to replicating on screen the effect of seeing the relevant paper as if viewed by reflected light. If svaughan is adjusting his prints without soft proof, they will appear bright enough, when in fact they are not for the paper being used. He would only know this in advance by activating Soft Proof, whereupon most of the time the image darkens on the monitor, inciting the user to brightem it - and bingo, a brighter print emerges from the printer.
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Something that can be elusive unless one has the habit - it is important to make one's final luminsity adjustments with Soft Proof active.
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Absolutely! When I first went to the trouble and expense of calibrating my monitor, I thought for a while the print was supposed to match the appearance on the monitor outside of proof setup conditions. With the 7600 and the Bill Atkinson profiles, this is clearly not the case. Proof setup and 'simulate paper white' dulls the image to a significant degree requiring me to add more 'pop' before printing.
I'd probably be considered very sloppy with my work flow procedures (from a professional perspective), but one of the attractions of RawShooter, for me, is the range of automatic presets. With ACR there's just one. You can have auto-adjustment either on or off. With RawShooter there's a choice of normal, medium, strong and 'sample'. The 'sample' option often seems to be a good starting point for me since it automatically provides that extra saturation and local contrast that I strive to achieve in proof setup before printing.
There's more than one way to skin a cat, as the saying goes .
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Yup, with digital imaging that cat can be skinned in so many ways you can easily end up with a skinless cat - just kidding.
That much said, I tend to avoid automatic anything in my image processing. I like starting from scratch with the raw data and building-up everything as I go along. I find I understand the image better that way and it helps me to optimize it, but I recognize the possible advantages to getting a head start with a bit of up-front automation - as long as one can undo it without harm if one doesn't like the results.
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That much said, I tend to avoid automatic anything in my image processing. I like starting from scratch with the raw data and building-up everything as I go along. I find I understand the image better that way and it helps me to optimize it, but I recognize the possible advantages to getting a head start with a bit of up-front automation - as long as one can undo it without harm if one doesn't like the results.
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That's a fair comment, but sometimes an automatic adjustment can give you an idea or option for a result that one might never realise without a tremendous amount of experimentation. Often I find that the 'auto color' adjustment in PS makes the image worse, but sometimes it's just right, or at least better.
I should also add that in general, I'm led to believe that adjustments made to the RAW image at the time of conversion are likely to be better, with less degradation etc, than post conversion adjustments.
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I'm having a similar problem with my setup. I just bought a 23" Apple Cinema Display and an R1800. I'm on a PC (XP Pro SP2), use CS2 to process files, and print from Qimage. I've profiled the ACD with Eye-One and am pretty comfortable that I have setup the monitor and printer/paper profiles correctly in Qimage.
The color accuracy of the prints is about the best I've experienced, so overall, I'm pleased with the calibration/profiling (this has traditionally been an issue for me). The problem is that the prints are darker than the image on screen (just like svaughan's original post). I've read all of the above suggestions and definitely see how the viewing light affects the perception of the print. Since the light near my PC is too dark, the best chance I have to view the print is during the day. Even with daylight, I find the prints too dark.
I haven't tried the soft proofing suggestions (will do so tonight), but am a bit confused. Assuming the soft proof method serves to reduce the brightness on screen, causing me to increase the image's brightness through Curves/Levels/etc., will I then have a file that looks good for printing but will be too bright for screen/web viewing? The soft proof method seems similar to something else I was considering. When I calibrated the monitor, I adjusted the brightness to 120. I figure I can always use a print to tweak the monitor's brightness (after the profile has been made), but that seems counter-intuitive to the profiling process. There seem to be a few ways to correct the problem, I just don't understand why the calibration/profiling process doesn't address it from the beginning. Then again, maybe the generic Epson printer profiles aren't good enough and I need custom ones.
Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks,
Steve
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If you are viewing your prints under appropriate light comparison with the soft proof is the surest way to judge the quality of your colour management. Once you adjust the luminosity etc to perform to your taste with soft proof, my experience suggests you will most likely have to tone the image down a bit for web viewing.
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Even with daylight, I find the prints too dark.
I used to often compare prints with the monitor while viewing the print under a frosted-glass skylight on a sunny day, and it was *still* noticeably darker than under a "good" light (in my case, under the dense bunch of fluorescent tubes in my kitchen). Direct sunlight would be bright enough, but even things like frosted skylights and indirect sunlight through windows might still be too dark.
Lisa
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I am using Photoshop CS to edit my prints. I use the Adobe RGB 1998 as my work ......[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=58277\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Finally, an answer! I just read all the posts, went into CS2 and discovered "soft proofs." What a difference! I wish OEM's like Epson would monitor these sites frequently and address concerns such as these. I too found all my prints too dark. Thanks everyone!
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IME, most ost of the time when the prints come off the printer darker than what shows on a profiled monitor, it is a result of double-profiling with the printer's print driver. To avoid this, you have to be sure ALL color management is turned off in the print driver -- and this setting does not always hold and often must be turned off for every new printing session.
Once you have confirmed that, then make sure you are applying the proper paper profile in your printing program and make sure your rendering intent is either perceptual or relative colorimetric (unless you have good reason to use absolute colorimetric).
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Thanks for the comments Jack. I have made sure that color management is off, so it doesn't use the printer drivers. I also have several profiles for each type of paper I use. I use colorimetric with BP compensation turned on. When I check my proof, it seems when I deselect BP, the picture shows more like the print. Should I do these without BP selected?
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Jack, the point about the printer settings holding properly is a well-known and unresolved issue with Mac O/S, but not with Windows XP (for a change!) - so one would need to know which O/x svaughan is using to know whether this may be the problem - but the more general point about competitive management is correct - and deadly.
We also don't know what kind of monitor is being used - how old it is, CRT or LCD. If it is an older CRT, it could be starting to fade, so the same colour numbers would look "brighter" (actually more feint) on the monitor than they should appear in print. If the monitor calibration package is a good one and it is being used properly, it should not be necessary to intervene after the fact and adjust the brightness. The brightness of the monitor should be adjusted as part of the calibration, e.g. as it works with ColorEyes Display.
I agree with Tim Gray and Ray about the illumination conditions. I use a ceiling track of Solux 50 Watt bulbs to illuminate my work-space for print viewing. Makes a big difference even how the print is positioned or tilted under the light (with matte papers anyhow).
Something that can be elusive unless one has the habit - it is important to make one's final luminsity adjustments with Soft Proof active. Soft proof, if properly set-up, should come very close to replicating on screen the effect of seeing the relevant paper as if viewed by reflected light. If svaughan is adjusting his prints without soft proof, they will appear bright enough, when in fact they are not for the paper being used. He would only know this in advance by activating Soft Proof, whereupon most of the time the image darkens on the monitor, inciting the user to brightem it - and bingo, a brighter print emerges from the printer.
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I am using windows XP Media version on a dell.
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svaughan, it is generally recommended to keep BP selected. When turned on, it maps the black of the source profile to the black of the target profile, ensuring that the entire dynamic range of the printer is used (see Fraser/Blatner real World Photoshop CS2 page 209).
If you have BP selected and you are not getting decent matching between the monitor and the print, there is a profiling problem elsewhere that is not caused by the selection of BP.
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Jack, the point about the printer settings holding properly is a well-known and unresolved issue with Mac O/S, but not with Windows XP (for a change!) - so one would need to know which O/x svaughan is using to know whether this may be the problem - but the more general point about competitive management is correct - and deadly.
We also don't know what kind of monitor is being used - how old it is, CRT or LCD. If it is an older CRT, it could be starting to fade, so the same colour numbers would look "brighter" (actually more feint) on the monitor than they should appear in print. If the monitor calibration package is a good one and it is being used properly, it should not be necessary to intervene after the fact and adjust the brightness. The brightness of the monitor should be adjusted as part of the calibration, e.g. as it works with ColorEyes Display.
I agree with Tim Gray and Ray about the illumination conditions. I use a ceiling track of Solux 50 Watt bulbs to illuminate my work-space for print viewing. Makes a big difference even how the print is positioned or tilted under the light (with matte papers anyhow).
Something that can be elusive unless one has the habit - it is important to make one's final luminsity adjustments with Soft Proof active. Soft proof, if properly set-up, should come very close to replicating on screen the effect of seeing the relevant paper as if viewed by reflected light. If svaughan is adjusting his prints without soft proof, they will appear bright enough, when in fact they are not for the paper being used. He would only know this in advance by activating Soft Proof, whereupon most of the time the image darkens on the monitor, inciting the user to brightem it - and bingo, a brighter print emerges from the printer.
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Hello Mark, I am using a dell LCD digital flat screen. I have profiled it several times using the Eye One colormeter. I work my pic's in CS using the same lighting conditions. Proof colors is turned on, but in this case there is a drastic difference between my print and the screen. I totally loose my contrast, and the shadows are real dark not allowing detail to show. Green pine trees are no longer green.
You can see the pic here [a href=\"http://www.myweb.cableone.net/svaughan/photos/Scenes%20052.jpg]http://www.myweb.cableone.net/svaughan/pho...cenes%20052.jpg[/url]
It looks ok on my screen, but the print out sucks.
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svaughan, I have downloaded your image and opened it in Photoshop CS2 with Soft Proof Active for Epson Enhanced Matte paper. I preserved your colour working space being Adobe RGB98. The image on my monitor looks fine. Portions of the rocks that are good candidates for neutral grey are indeed neutral grey, as shown by values of 0 or very near thereto in both L*a*b channels a and b. So the problem is not your image and not your monitor calibration. That much is resolved. If I were to print this on my 4800, it would come out fine, taking into account that it is a rather low-contrast image given the basic luminosity of the scene. I also activated Gamut Warning and found there is very little out of gamut that would point to a problem caused by choice of rendering intent (say between Relative COlorimetric and Perceptual). I have also reviewed everything you've told us right from the beginning of this thread. Unless there is some other gremlin caused by settings you have not mentioned, I think your problem could well be the paper you are using. Paper makes a HUGE difference to the quality of the print.
I have a suggestion. Buy a box of A4 or Letter Size Epson Enhanced Matte (it's cheap), select the Epson Enhanced Matte Paper profile in Photoshop Print with Preview and in the Epson printer driver, activate Proof Colors, make final Curves tweaks in this mode, then print the image on Enhanced Matte, making sure the coated side of the paper gets the print. If everything else is OK, my prediction is that the output will look a bit subdued, but most of the shadow detail will be OK, and the greens will be fine, except for some of the more yellowish pine needles at the right side and near-centre of the image - they will come out slightly flatter than what you see on the monitor, regardless of Proof Set-Up viewing and adjusting.
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I would like to thank everyone for their comments and suggestions. I can honestly say this topic seems to be a real issue with digital photography, not just with me.
I agree what Mark say's my problem may be with the paper. I am using Epson Premium Semigloss, which produces slightly darker prints then the glossy.
I am still not confinced my monitor is profilling corretly. When I boot up, the monitor screen will lighten automatically. If I go to color management, deselet my profile and select it again, my monitor will darken. Go figure. There was one suggetion to set my monitor to something like 120 ?? Not sure how. I'll have to investigate this.
I have some of the cheap matt paper, I will do some printing with it and see what the outcome is. I lightend the pic and printed it on a 4x6 glossy and the detail is there, but I lost a little contrast. Thanks to all the comments, it has been a great help.
br slv.
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...There was one suggetion to set my monitor to something like 120 ?? Not sure how. I'll have to investigate this. ...
I made that suggestion. In the profiling software I use (Eye-One Match, advanced mode), one of the first step is to set display luminance. Other software packages also offer the same functionality. Try it, but I guess that your printing problem is a combination of smaller problems and it's not easy to find a solution.
FWIW, here's what Eye-One Match help says about it:
Luminance
Please select your desired luminance of your monitor in cd/m2.
You may select between several presets, select a custom value or ignore luminance adjustments of you monitor (no change setting).
For CRT monitors we recommend 100 cd/m2.
For LCD monitors we recommend 120 cd/m2.
For older CRT monitors we recommend 80 cd/m2 because they could rarely reach a higher luminance level. Below 80 cd/m2 you should not set the monitors luminance.
For laptop screens we recommend 90 cd/m2.
If you desire to calibrate multiple monitors you should choose the same white point, gamma and luminance value on each monitor. The target luminance for all monitors will be the luminance of the weakest monitor.
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I got an excellent print today using the premium semi-gloss epson paper. I found two issues I had to correct.
1) I use Adobe RGB 1998, but my intent was set to perceptual, so I changed it to colorimetric to match the intent in the print space. Not sure if I needed to, but it seem to work.
2) In my print setup for the Epson when I choose ICM for color management, instead of selecting No Color Adjustment, I selected apply printer software and it assigned the proper epson profile for my paper selection. Wow what a difference.
Question to anyone that wants to answer. I have a custom profile my brother gave me, for the same printer. To use it, I would select this profile in my print space in photo shop correct, then choose ICM and select No Color Adjustment. Is this correct?
I guess at this point the standard profiles that come with the Epson really do well.
Best Regards Steve
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Steve, essentially what you've done with those settings is to let the printer rather than Photoshop manage the colours. While in principle it is supposed to work better the other way around, if the other path just isn't doing it for you and this one is, don't argue with success. Glad you got a solution that is giving you results you can live with.
Mark
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Steve, essentially what you've done with those settings is to let the printer rather than Photoshop manage the colours. While in principle it is supposed to work better the other way around, if the other path just isn't doing it for you and this one is, don't argue with success. Glad you got a solution that is giving you results you can live with.
Mark
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Hi Mark, yes I agree. In fact everything I read says don't do this because it doubles the conversion on color. I will do some more prints, it might be that I just need to use the standard printer profiles and the custom one my brother gave me, was created to fit his PC system.
Thanks for your help. slv.
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Actually, you defintely should NOT have BOTH Photoshop and the printer driver managing colour. It will cause headaches. Since the printer driver seems to be working better for you, I recommend you keep that one. The Epson paper profiles deliver very decent quality. Therefore, in the Print with Preview Options under Color Handling (Photoshop CS2) select "Let Printer Determine Colors". Then you should be fine.
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Actually, you defintely should NOT have BOTH Photoshop and the printer driver managing colour. It will cause headaches. Since the printer driver seems to be working better for you, I recommend you keep that one. The Epson paper profiles deliver very decent quality. Therefore, in the Print with Preview Options under Color Handling (Photoshop CS2) select "Let Printer Determine Colors". Then you should be fine.
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i have a similar proble with an epson pro 4800.....printing on enhanced matte etc.....since last fall when i got it..i've gone round and round on this.....it is about 1 stop darker on the print than on the screen.....<photoshop cs>....part of it i attribute to just the paer itself..it sucks the ink in the shadows and depending on the light looks good or not....also the cinema apple screen etc....is so illuminious etc.....that to me it gives a semi false impression...everything else is ok color etc....so i just kinda work with it.....one would think there would be just a simple something on the printer or program that you could just make it 1 stop lighter screen to print.....
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Actually, you defintely should NOT have BOTH Photoshop and the printer driver managing colour. It will cause headaches. Since the printer driver seems to be working better for you, I recommend you keep that one. The Epson paper profiles deliver very decent quality. Therefore, in the Print with Preview Options under Color Handling (Photoshop CS2) select "Let Printer Determine Colors". Then you should be fine.
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Hi Mark, I use Photo Shop CS and don't see that option in print preview. Do you know if this option is available in CS?
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Sorry Steve I forgot you are using CS. No problem, it can do exactly the same thing - only the routing is a bit different. Open an image in CS. Open Print with Preview. Under the image check the "Show More Options" box. In Source Space, select Document. Under that, in Print Space, in the profile drop-down window, scroll to the top, and the second item may well be "Printer Color Management". If it is not the second find it elsewhere on the list and select it. That should direct Photoshop to letting the printer manage the color.
Mark
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FWIW, the image of the pine trees is flat, dark and dingy (apart from the burnt out sky).
I think you have a problem with your monitor calibration.
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I am using Photoshop CS to edit my prints. I use the Adobe RGB 1998 as my work space, and I have calibrated my monitor using the Eye One Display meter.
When I am done with my contrast adjustments, sharpening and ready to print, my print comes out slightly darker than on my screen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=58277\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There are three requirements to match luminance between a monitor and a print:
1: A properly profiled monitor. Assuming non-defective equipment and your ability to use it correctly, you probably have this covered. BTW, a monitor luminance/hue shift during bootup is normal. It is the monitor profile being applied. If you see nothing change, either you have a very unusual monitor that requires no color or luminance adjustments at all (highly unlikely), or else your calibration software isn't loading any profile for some reason, which is bad.
2: A properly profiled printer. Some canned printer profiles are pretty good, but properly made custom profiles are always better. But custom profiles are only valid for a particular set of driver and other printing settings. If you change anything, you can completely invalidate the profile.
3: A controlled ambient light source. This is the one everyone forgets about, but it really should be obvious. If you compare a monitor image and print in total darkness, the monitor image will always be brighter than the print. If the ambient light level is bright enough, the print will be brighter than the monitor image. If you alter the color characteristics of the ambient light, you will alter the color match between the print and monitor as well. To match luminance and hue between monitor and print, you must have a light source that is controlled in both color and intensity.
Printer profiles are always created for a given standard lighting condition, usually D50 or D65, which specifies both the intensity and the color charactics of the ambient light. Monitor profiles are created to a target luminance value and a selected color temperature. In most cases, calibrating the monitor to 6500K and creating printer profiles with D50 seems to work best to match color between printer and monitor. In your case, your ambient lighting is too dim to properly match print and monitor. Assuming your profiles are OK (and they probably are; bad profiles will usually cause color mismatch problems far worse than luminance mismatches) you have 2 options: you can lower the brightness of your monitor and reprofile it to a slightly lower luminance value, or you can increase the brightness of the ambient light you use to compare monitor image and print. The best (and of course the most expensive) solution is a print viewing booth with controlled color temperature and adjustable brightness so you can achieve a perfect match.
The advice about double color management is sound; have either Photoshop or the print driver handle the conversion from the working space to the print space, but not both. Doing so is a recipe for disaster. I generally prefer to have Photoshop handle color management, as in most cases it will do a better job than the print driver. Photoshop will convert a 16-bit image to the print space in 16-bit mode, and then downsample to 8 bits if necessary to send the data to the print driver. Letting the printer driver do the conversion means the data is downsampled to 8 bits before the color space conversion and you'll have more posterization and banding than otherwise.
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I am using Photoshop CS to edit my prints. I use the Adobe RGB 1998 as my work space, and I have calibrated my monitor using the Eye One Display meter.
When I am done with my contrast adjustments, sharpening and ready to print, my print comes out slightly darker than on my screen.
I am using some of the standard printer profiles printing on premium epson paper, and have even used a custom made on my brother had, as he has the same printer. On the web you can get some nice printer profiles for the Epson.
Any suggestions how to correct this darkness difference?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=58277\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There is also a possibility the driver is not current. I have seen in other forums that the dark prints is sometimes caused by the oringinal Epson driver. Download the latest, remove the current driver, delete the driver if you know where it is located. Load the new driver to make sure you are up to date. Hope this will solve the dark shade problem.