Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: yashima on June 13, 2015, 12:37:44 pm
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Do you see Sony will enter medium format market in the near future or do you think Sony will be quite happy to dominate FF and stay being sensor supplier for MFDB?
Personally I would love to see an MF version of A7rII, 80MPx, 4K, with AF/MF adapter for other lens lines (think Contax 645 Zeiss with faster AF!)
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I believe they will. They have enough electronics knowhow and a capable optics partner in Zeiss.
I also believe that they will do so while making their offering clearly differentiated from the existing solutions.
What I don't believe is that it will be something to satisfy the fantasies of bargain hunters dreaming of a 3-4K MF camera.
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10K for the above spec would be phenomenal, and I believe doable by Sony
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Hi,
I don't think so. Sony will deliver CMOS sensors to anyone willing to pay, but I don't expect they will go into medium format themselves.
Best regards
Erik
Do you see Sony will enter medium format market in the near future or do you think Sony will be quite happy to dominate FF and stay being sensor supplier for MFDB?
Personally I would love to see an MF version of A7rII, 80MPx, 4K, with AF/MF adapter for other lens lines (think Contax 645 Zeiss with faster AF!)
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10K for the above spec would be phenomenal, and I believe doable by Sony
I agree with you.
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I'm absolutely certain they will.
They've recently got very serious in the high res audio game, with one of the best high res portable audio player/pre-amp combinations on the market.
They're not afraid of going after the top end niches, and I don't see any reason why this should be any different.
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I'm absolutely certain they will.
They've recently got very serious in the high res audio game, with one of the best high res portable audio player/pre-amp combinations on the market.
OT, but my DN 850 delights me every single time I use it!
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OT, but my DN 850 delights me every single time I use it!
More OT. I'm taking about the NW-ZX2 and PHA-3 combo. Do NOT audition this gear. I did, and ended up buying them both and Audeze LCD-3's.
Could have got a decent lens for that lot!
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I did, and as much as it hurt me, I didn't go for it. My CFO would kill me if I did! ;D
Settling for a Creative E5/ Fiio X1/ iPod touch/ Bowers & Wilkins P7 combo for my mobile high res audio thirst now.
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Sure hope they do. But no one (but them) knows. They would have to put in a great deal of R&D money, on at-best a break-even sort of proposition. Not sure it's that attractive a market.
But I'd sure be interested in buying one.
- N.
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Sure hope they do. But no one (but them) knows. They would have to put in a great deal of R&D money, on at-best a break-even sort of proposition. Not sure it's that attractive a market.
But I'd sure be interested in buying one.
- N.
Touch screen phones were an "At best, break even" market in a world of flip phones, before Apple had a go at it.
Sometimes you just gotta take a leap of faith and Sony is the kind of company that does it. I have my hopes up! :)
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do you think Sony will be quite happy to dominate FF
Dominate? In sensors I presume?
Sony's market share in interchangeable lens cameras (mirrorless and DSLRs) was 11% last year (compared to Nikon’s claimed 34% and Canon’s >40%).
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Dominate? In sensors I presume?
Sony's market share in interchangeable lens cameras (mirrorless and DSLRs) was 11% last year (compared to Nikon’s claimed 34% and Canon’s >40%).
+1. Sony has about 30% market share in the mirrorless market leading Olympus by not that much...
The mirrorless market still has a long way to go before it catches up with DSLR market...
At this stage saying that Sony dominates the FF market is stretching it a bit...
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2016 you will see a medium format full frame sony for sure.
best.
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I don't think so. Sony will deliver CMOS sensors to anyone willing to pay, but I don't expect they will go into medium format themselves.
They have certainly been aggressively testing out concepts all over the place. It seems that they have the muscle to do so in order to see what will float.
If they continue that path, then I guess that a RX1 on steroids or A9 (54MP MF?) is possible. I won't dare to guess if it is likely.
-h
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It depends on Sony's game plan. They've cornered the sensor market and sell their own camera bodies. I guess they'd leave Canon and Nikon alone but Medium format could be something they'd enter into.
It boils down as simple as this, a few years ago there was no full frame compacts (or what we'd consider small cameras) - Now we have them, everywhere. So the next logical step is up.
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If they continue that path, then I guess that a RX1 on steroids or A9 (54MP MF?) is possible. I won't dare to guess if it is likely.
If Leica can sell a Q at 4200 US$ with a good 24mp FF sensor, Sony will be able to sell a RX2 with a great 50mp larger sensor for 5,000 US$. How compact the 35mm lens could be is the only question that could threaten the concept IMHO.
So this is my bet too.
Cheers,
Bernard
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+1. Sony has about 30% market share in the mirrorless market leading Olympus by not that much...
The mirrorless market still has a long way to go before it catches up with DSLR market...
At this stage saying that Sony dominates the FF market is stretching it a bit...
Not so sure I agree with this. The casual DSLR market is already shrinking. The only thing that keeps it at its current levels is the perception by the general public that "pros use Nikon and Canon, so they must be good."
There are only a very few things that have kept the DSLR market ahead of the mirrorless market for pros. Chief among them are investment in a lens system, autofocus and optical viewfinders. If Sony has cracked the autofocus problem with the new camera, that will leave optical viewfinders and standing investment in lenses. In the motion world, optical viewfinders are, at this point, only available on a tiny segment of very high-end cameras used by very seasoned pros. Nobody else cares. And that change happened very quickly.
So the only thing holding Sony back from dominating the FF market is current investment in the other guys' lenses. If they keep doing what they're doing, that may not be as much of a barrier as we might think. Especially as one of the chief attractions of the E-mount is that its short flange-focal distance makes just about every lens adaptable to it.
Now for medium format, the story might be different, but imagine, for a moment, that Zeiss, who is partnered with Sony for lenses, wanted to breathe new life into the Contax 645 platform...
Mirrorless Contax anyone?
DAF
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So the only thing holding Sony back from dominating the FF market is current investment in the other guys' lenses. If they keep doing what they're doing, that may not be as much of a barrier as we might think. Especially as one of the chief attractions of the E-mount is that its short flange-focal distance makes just about every lens adaptable to it.
Not just that. It's also the lack of many specialised lenses.
Now, on the inertia resulting from existing lenses investment. Canon was light years ahead of Nikon for many years with faster AF, more widespread stabilisation, FF digital bodies... that only got them to win 5-6 points of marketshare. Nikon has been significantly ahead in image quality for many years now... that has perhaps enabled them to gain 2-3 points back in market share over Canon?
I wish the best to Sony, but the 25+ marketshare points they trail behind Canon and Nikon won't be easy to overcome.
The question really is what happens in China and India. I go there quite a bit and what I see is people with large DSLRs because status is more important than compactness.
We have a very biased view here at LL because the average age is high and that makes a few hundreds of gram extremely appealing (it's the same reason why mirrorless is so successful in Japan btw), but the general market is made of young guys for whom weight is mostly irrelevant. The growth there will probably be 5 times more significant for camera manufacturers than the adjustments in Europe and the US. That positions Samsung as a competitor a lot more dangerous than Sony because their brand is pretty strong there, especially in India.
I agree that the ability to mount any lens on the a7x - albeit with limited AF till proven otherwise - is appealing, but that's mostly about converting the small fraction of Canon shooters willing to spend thousands of US$ to save a few grams, get a modern sensor while continuing to use their lenses. BTW, that probably won't help Sony get very profitable since the margin they make on bodies are probably fairly slim compared to lenses.
IMHO
Cheers,
Bernard
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I don't think anybody has to worry too much that they will take over the medium format market. If they try they will surely flop with a battery life of 200shots, compressed files, buttons in the wrong spots, and trying to make it a video camera. They have yet to hire a photographer to tell them the basics of what should be in a camera and ergonomics. They seem to have the ability do great sensor and some other technology and thinking outside the box but often miss the big picture that it has to fall into your hand and just work. Anyways that is what I have taken from them; just hope they continue to expand the CMOS sensor line for people that can design a system to use...
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I visit SonyAlphaRumors semi-regularly, so I just happened to remember this tidbit here: http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-interview-at-dc-watch-says-no-interchangeable-medium-format-system-camera-to-come-yet-new-a-mount-stuff-will-come/
Straight from the horses mouth - Sony digital imaging manager says "no" to interchangeable medium format to "concentrate on the A and E-mount systems"
While this was 6 months ago, I think it'll be a longer while yet before Sony sees their current systems fleshed out enough to think about other cameras, the FE system is only just hitting its stride with the recent release of the A7RII and all those nice lenses.
If they were to enter this space, what could they offer in terms of lenses? Sony has Zeiss backing them up on lens production and even that has turned out to take sweet time, and as far as I know Zeiss doesn't manufacture MF glass, so it would be quite the wind-up for them to shift gears like that. If they go the pre-existing lens route, whose lenses would they license? There aren't many MF lenses designed for mirrorless cameras, besides maybe the Mamiya 7 and tech cam lenses as being the most common. Chances are it's a system they'll have to build from scratch.
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If you are unaware of zeiss' MF optics history, I suggest that you spend some time on Wikipedia.
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If you are unaware of zeiss' MF optics history, I suggest that you spend some time on Wikipedia.
History doesn't sell though, for a reasonable price anyway. Zeiss has made one-off lenses of every size under the sun, including some telescopic monstrosities, but what I'm talking about are current mass-produced lenses designed specifically for mirrorless cameras (so the Hasselblad V lenses don't count, different optical formulas required). If it's going to come packaged with a Sony camera, the very brand of mass consumer products, it also has to be lens design Zeiss can commit to for mass production, not those few lenses they made that one time for aerial photography or something. A complete camera system also needs lenses everywhere from 24~200mm, at the very least, including a few zooms. And are those old lens designs even relevant anymore for digital photography? It's going to have to be done from scratch no matter how you look at it. Zeiss does have the expertise, I'm not arguing that, but expertise costs money that Sony won't be willing to invest in a system they don't know will sell.
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History doesn't sell though, for a reasonable price anyway. Zeiss has made one-off lenses of every size under the sun, including some telescopic monstrosities, but what I'm talking about are current mass-produced lenses designed specifically for mirrorless cameras (so the Hasselblad V lenses don't count, different optical formulas required). If it's going to come packaged with a Sony camera, the very brand of mass consumer products, it also has to be lens design Zeiss can commit to for mass production, not those few lenses they made that one time for aerial photography or something. A complete camera system also needs lenses everywhere from 24~200mm, at the very least, including a few zooms.
I wouldn't bet against Zeiss's ability to design a brilliant MF lens and to mass produce it to outstanding quality standards.
Some of the recent V lenses are very very good, including their legendary 40mm of which I own a sample, not to mention the Otus series.
They have more than proven their abilities.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I wouldn't bet against Zeiss's ability to design a brilliant MF lens and to mass produce it to outstanding quality standards.
Some of the recent V lenses are very very good, including their legendary 40mm of which I own a sample, not to mention the Otus series.
They have more than proven their abilities.
Cheers,
Bernard
I fully agree, but this isn't about Zeiss though, it's about Sony.
Sony won't lift a finger unless there is an off-the-shelf solution available, or if they have nothing better to do.
In case you haven't forgotten the early FE lenses were rather lackluster, including the 28-70, 24-70 and 35/2.8 (not a bad lens per say but f/2.8 ). The 55/1.8 is great, but it came out a long while later, as did the 70-200, but then all 70-200 lenses seem to be inherently great.
They had to fall back on using adapters for the A system, and through third parties to adapt just about every other system to compensate for a lack of native lenses. What would be the point of a mirrorless MF camera that had to fall back on gigantic 645 or 6x6 glass that neither takes advantage of the reduced flange distance nor the smaller format? At least on the A7 you could have mounted rangefinder lenses early on.
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I misunderstood your point, sorry.
I agree that Sony is not likely to release a MF system.
My view is that they could release an RX2 with their 50mp mini-MF sensor and that would use a Zeiss designed 35mm equivalent lens opening at f2.8.
Cheers,
Bernard
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So, my question is (knowing the camera market pretty well) is why would they?
The company that should be watched is Fuji. If HB goes away will Fuji continue the camera and lenses they have been making for HB?
Also, Fuji has dropped hints that they will consider the MF market and if you google around you may even come up with some of the so called considered prototype designs.
The MF market is an interesting market and presents challenges for chips design, optics, AF etc. The costs of entering a market would be high.
All these guys are asking speculative questions - who needs it, who will buy it, how much will they pay, and finally if you get through the first 3 parts of the question what does the customer want?
Kevin Raber
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...Sony is not likely to release a MF system.
My view is that they could release an RX2 with their 50mp mini-MF sensor and that would use a Zeiss designed 35mm equivalent lens opening at f2.8.
This is my best guess as well.
Releasing a system in a new format size is a wide-spread commitment. It requires a range of glass and accessories in addition to the body/sensor.
Putting a larger sensor to a scaled-up version of their RX is likely more work than it intuitively would seem. But it's likely an order of magnitude easier than developing a new system.
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So, my question is (knowing the camera market pretty well) is why would they?
The company that should be watched is Fuji. If HB goes away will Fuji continue the camera and lenses they have been making for HB?
Kevin Raber
This is one of the strangest quotes I've seen on a respected site in a long time.
Is there something you know your not telling, is it personal speculation, speculation from a competitor, can it be substantiated by multiple sources?
I expect these quotes from a certain group of interested hobbyists that regularly post on this site with guesses and random thought in the dp review style of discussion, but not from someone "knowing the camera market pretty well".
Maybe it's just my impression, but I've always felt that in the medium format segment reporting, this site was Phase 1 centric, but like the rest of the pundits, that's just my impression.
IMO
BC
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BC, is it your sense that people are still buying HB gear as opposed to just using existing gear and renting?
As for a MF cam from Fuji or Sony, it would have to be a corporate pride thing rather than a profit centre. Fuji has the history and, it seems, a real connection to photography, which makes them a pride-candidate, but-for the lack of a sensor (no small thing). Sony corporately doesn't understand or give a crap about photography qua photography, has no history, but has the sensor-tech. And wants to dominate the industry.
Fuji very proudly uses their own sensors. So I don't feel a mash-up. But one of these companies might do it. I would be surprised if prototypes haven't been drawn if not built. It's just a business-case thing, I suspect. The industry is changing really quite fast, and these companies are more concerned with surviving than making.1% of photographers happy.
But we can live in hope...
- N.
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This is one of the strangest quotes I've seen on a respected site in a long time.
Is there something you know your not telling, is it personal speculation, speculation from a competitor, can it be substantiated by multiple sources?
I expect these quotes from a certain group of interested hobbyists that regularly post on this site with guesses and random thought in the dp review style of discussion, but not from someone "knowing the camera market pretty well".
Maybe it's just my impression, but I've always felt that in the medium format segment reporting, this site was Phase 1 centric, but like the rest of the pundits, that's just my impression.
IMO
BC
J,
One always hears the juiciest rumors from the competition's side, and not from the horse's mouth; rumors about Hassy have been circulating for years, and as they are owned by private capital a sale is always on the table because this is how these firms work. I might have hypothetically heard some rumors too, but one does assess them as to credibility; remember the rumors about Pentax abandoning the MF market, and how that went down?
Hassy have just released an aerial survey camera (http://www.hasselblad.com/special-applications/a5d-aerial) with synched exposure capability, and special lens versions, so they seem to be digging in for the long haul in this market.
In Japan Fuji sell the Hassy under their own brand (http://www.yodobashi.com/ec/category/index.html?cate=&word=fuji+gx645&ginput=fuji+645). Fuji used to own the "marriage" market, with studios buying all their gear, MF film, modded Nikon cameras with Fuji sensors with the DR for the bride's dress, dyesub pictro printers to make the albums, and even rebranded large format Epson printers with Fuji branded paper. If any of this market subsists, then Fuji have a vested interest in keeping a "pro" camera with MF cachet in their catalog. It's being a camera they already co-manufacture would make this easier, of course :)
Edmund
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BC, is it your sense that people are still buying HB gear as opposed to just using existing gear and renting?
As for a MF cam from Fuji or Sony, it would have to be a corporate pride thing rather than a profit centre. Fuji has the history and, it seems, a real connection to photography, which makes them a pride-candidate, but-for the lack of a sensor (no small thing). Sony corporately doesn't understand or give a crap about photography qua photography, has no history, but has the sensor-tech. And wants to dominate the industry.
Fuji very proudly uses their own sensors. So I don't feel a mash-up. But one of these companies might do it. I would be surprised if prototypes haven't been drawn if not built. It's just a business-case thing, I suspect. The industry is changing really quite fast, and these companies are more concerned with surviving than making.1% of photographers happy.
But we can live in hope...
- N.
Nick, I agree with you more often than not, but I have to disagree here. Sony does care about photographers. Every single change in the A7R II is made based on the complaints photographers had for the first version.
Can't remember the last time canikon did that.
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I feel that Sony has been in the MF market now for 2 years or more, ever since the HB 50c and Phase One IQ250 and Pentax 645z were announced. If they wanted to move to that market, I feel the RX1 platform would have been modified and released with a fixed lens but it's not happened and SAR has been pretty moot on the subject as of late. Sony tends to get new products out sooner than later where they feel there is a market.
Personally, I can't see a Fuji MF solution, but Fuji has done strange things in the past.
I also don't see the MF market getting larger, if anything smaller. New 35mm entries are coming pretty fast now, and if the new BIS CMOS allows better movements, that would be great, however I feel that photographers working with movements are in a minority and not in the headlights of the camera/chip developers who are chasing the "social media instant gratification" and YouTube Video needs now more than anything. I understand, you have to go where the market is.
By purchasing a tech camera, and various lenses, I have placed myself in even a smaller minority. I don't see that much difference in images I have taken with the Phase CMOS vs the Phase CCD's, I have used and I know from personal experience the limitations of the current 50Mp CMOS chip with movements on a tech camera. I do know also that Phase One did a very good job on the color cast corrections for the 50Mp chip, but in my work, the 1:3 crop is a huge negative. Thus I hope that Sony will continue their forward march and create a BIS style full frame MF CMOS or even a 1:1 chip that will allow cleaner movements with the current generation of tech glass. Or maybe it will come from Dalsa, as I believe they do make CMOS chips for other applications.
Paul Caldwell
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The MF market is small, actually very small compared to the other formats. To develop a new camera costs millions and in some cases 10's of millions, but yet the market for said camera in the hundreds to low thousands per year. If you have to develop a completely new system of sensor, cameras and lenses then …. well its a pretty high barrier to entry. On top of that all the marketing research shows the trend is toward smaller and smaller cameras, with just a small percentage of photographers using MF and larger formats. In that last group, some are using film or other alternative process like wet plate and won't necessarily go for MF digital. It's a lot easier to start with a platform and improve it than to start completely from scratch.
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The market may be small, that's because it's expensive. Make it affordable and like pushing on a string, people will move from one format to another.
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Must admit I wasn't particularly surprised by this comment given Mr Raber's previous life as a P1 employee.
But was it wishful thinking, or irritation that Hasselblad are still around and in competition with P1, or just the kind of internet noise that is usually associated with lesser photography forums?
Or there again, perhaps Mr Raber really does know something that we don't?
I don't know Mr. Raber well and believe he is a passionate enthusiast, though I must admit I always appreciate Michael's reporting and reviews.
Like everyone Michael has his favorites, but with that in mind he has always been upfront in telling a warts and all story.
Michael never took the burn down the village attitude, but he was direct and asked things that would make most ceo's blush.
I personally thought the two reports on the site of the XF camera showed bias. Kevin can be forgiven because as I said he is very enthused about equipment, the design and production. He can't be faulted for that.
The second article from the East Coast Phase One retail salesperson was just a fluff piece.
Sure there was some good information, but honestly it was pure PR with an advertising tag line for the ending of the article.
That one made me shake my head.
IMO
BC
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Must admit I wasn't particularly surprised by this comment given Mr Raber's previous life as a P1 employee.
But was it wishful thinking, or irritation that Hasselblad are still around and in competition with P1, or just the kind of internet noise that is usually associated with lesser photography forums?
Or there again, perhaps Mr Raber really does know something that we don't?
Whatever the motivation, the words are particularly inappropriate coming from the "Co-Publisher" of a site that has prided itself on not being a rumor site about future releases of camera equipment and using good ethics in business. With the Internet, words like his quickly become accepted and repeated as FACTS. I am sure Mr. Raber regrets his words.
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The second article from the East Coast Phase One retail salesperson was just a fluff piece.
I tried to get through it twice, couldn't do it... badly written and too many marketing wishes presented as facts...
Regarding both articles, I feel that they better would have been left unpublished...
The same for the comment in this thread regarding Hasselblad...
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Nick I could write 5 pages on what I think has happened and will continue to happen to the professional image making industry, but short answer, (beyond the internet, digital phone cameras, social media, twitterverse, facebookers, utubers, instagramers) I think it comes down to this.
For 7 years the world is stuck in a stagnant economy and it effects the professional and consumer markets for every dollar, pound, euro, yen, peso etc. spent.
So it would make sense that more professionals rent specialty cameras than buy, but that's a guess because our studios don't run the standard business model.
I am careful on what we buy and rent very little equipment, own 99% of what we use, but I've always been that way.
Today I wouldn't spend $30,000 for a still only camera, but will on motion cameras, actually given what I now own probably wouldn't do that either.
The smartest buy I made was early on going with RED (not because I love the cameras) but because they were up to todays specs 5 years ago.
Mine keep running and running and I will continue to use them until they stop.
Looking at this I guess I really didn't answer your question so I guess some people buy some people rent, but the market is probably squeezed from where it was in 2007.
Personally I think the professional camera of the future will be something like the Sony A series. Separate cameras for separate functions. One for still and motion low light, one for high resolution stills, one for motion high resolution all three in a package for less than 20k with an adaptable lens mount.
IMO
BC
BC, is it your sense that people are still buying HB gear as opposed to just using existing gear and renting?
As for a MF cam from Fuji or Sony, it would have to be a corporate pride thing rather than a profit centre. Fuji has the history and, it seems, a real connection to photography, which makes them a pride-candidate, but-for the lack of a sensor (no small thing). Sony corporately doesn't understand or give a crap about photography qua photography, has no history, but has the sensor-tech. And wants to dominate the industry.
Fuji very proudly uses their own sensors. So I don't feel a mash-up. But one of these companies might do it. I would be surprised if prototypes haven't been drawn if not built. It's just a business-case thing, I suspect. The industry is changing really quite fast, and these companies are more concerned with surviving than making.1% of photographers happy.
But we can live in hope...
- N.
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With all due respect, reference about current market economy, market size are not helpful/insightful, as for me, photography is an area of technology that is ripe to be disrupted. I just feel mirrorless CMOS sensor could just be it. What might prevent it is the leadership at Sony. They possess huge amount of talent and technological prowess however just too big of a corporation to commit and move fast enough.
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It's OK to dream. But it's pretty much all driven by a market economy. That's just the way of business profit and loss.
Paul Caldwell
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There's a lot of hypocrisy here as usual. If the market is too small and no one should bother trying, why were everyone and their grandma championing pentax? And even with pentax entering the fray with mainstream distribution channels as well, have they overtook phase yet?
There is a market for this gear at the price it is being sold at the current prices and as much as I respect the pros here, just because you don't want to drop 5 figures on a stills only camera doesn't mean nobody else does. Someone clearly is (including the absurd amounts Leica charges for their barely MF camera) and no company in the world would continually upgrade their product line of no one is buying them. Just look at the superbike market where the bottom fell out for many years and all we got was bold new stickers every year until this year.
Back to the point, I am sure the market is there for Sony to create. The key is differentiation, not sticker price. There are buyers for every product at every sticker price.
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I agree with synn sentiment, one does not succeed simply by trying to gain marketshare, but create a whole new demand for a new product category.
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...including the absurd amounts Leica charges for their barely MF camera...
The Leica S2 is $25,400 for a 30x45 sensor, the Phase One XF IQ3 50MP is $40,990 for a 33x44 sensor...
No offense but an insignificant difference in sensor size it seems to me for a big difference in price...
Obviously both prices are completely insane when you compare with the Pentax 645Z.
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My entire credo 40 kit is a fraction of the price of the S2 body. Your point is?
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Does anyone know how many Pentax 645D and 645Z have sold?
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My entire credo 40 kit is a fraction of the price of the S2 body. Your point is?
My point is that what you say might have been true for CCD sensors, it certainly is no longer true CMOS sensors...
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My point is that what you say might have been true for CCD sensors, it certainly is no longer true CMOS sensors...
The S2 is CCD. And for CMOS, there is an option at 4 figures, which is the pentax.
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The S2 is CCD. And for CMOS, there is an option at 4 figures, which is the pentax.
The S2 (Typ 006) CCD is now called S-E (and has a slightly different look) and is being sold for $14K.
The S2 Typ 007 is the new (and delayed and hopelessly late to the game) CMOS S2.
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If Leica can sell a Q at 4200 US$ with a good 24mp FF sensor, Sony will be able to sell a RX2 with a great 50mp larger sensor for 5,000 US$. How compact the 35mm lens could be is the only question that could threaten the concept IMHO.
So this is my bet too.
Cheers,
Bernard
Who would be the target audience though? Landscape photographers looking for a backup camera?
My impression is that the RX1 was targeted at and adopted by street shooters.
Street shooters want compact cameras, they don't need 50MP and the price might be a no-go for a lot of them...
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Who would be the target audience though? Landscape photographers looking for a backup camera?
My impression is that the RX1 was targeted at and adopted by street shooters.
Street shooters want compact cameras, they don't need 50MP and the price might be a no-go for a lot of them...
Fair point.
Now, the Leica Q is 16.7mm wider and 14.6mm taller than the Sony Rx1. That is exactly 6mm more than the difference of sensor size btwn FF and "barely" MF. Its lens is also 23mm longer.
Sony could therefore most probably design a RX2 featuring a variant of the 50Mp sensor used in the P1 IQ350 with a 35mm lens opening at 2.8 that would be more compact than the Leica Q or at least not significantly larger.
So my view is that it would still target street shooters as well as anyone willing to own the "best" compact camera on the planet. It would sell well in mine is bigger than yours markets.
The question mark is AF speed.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Sony is a big ass company. They need big sales numbers to move the needle even a little. Medium Format really doesn't make sense for them. Sony is looking for the next Walkman. Something everyone has to have a la the iPhone. They used to be a player in the consumer electronics market, but now they're just an also ran. I don't see where MF is going to do anything for them in the context of their larger corporate goals.
Now, a smaller player in the market who's happy fulfilling a smaller niche could do well here. (Fuji anyone?) That's why you see Pentax and Leica in the MF space. They're happy moving a few thousand units. Sony needs to move millions of cameras to move the bottom line.
John
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Sony is big but that very same reason was used until a year ago to explain us why Sony would never ever produce an MF sensor.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi.
It has been renamed to S, Synn is right the S2 is CCD.
Best regards
Erik
The S2 (Typ 006) CCD is now called S-E (and has a slightly different look) and is being sold for $14K.
The S2 Typ 007 is the new (and delayed and hopelessly late to the game) CMOS S2.
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Regarding sensor sizes, digital tech has pretty much destroyed any concept of bigger = better, a mere rollout of a new feature on one camera and a 35mm sensor performs on par with a larger one, next few years it's the opposite again as scaling catches up. I wonder how much sense it makes to continue to talk about sensor size like it actually matters anymore, performance wise...
If BSI turns out to be the magic bullet a lot of people are making it out to be right now, does Sony even need a camera with the 33x44 sensor in it, if it'll end up performing about the same as the A7RII? If it achieves performance parity, then it would render the MF option a novelty, at least until BSI makes it into medium format.
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Regarding sensor sizes, digital tech has pretty much destroyed any concept of bigger = better, a mere rollout of a new feature on one camera and a 35mm sensor performs on par with a larger one, next few years it's the opposite again as scaling catches up. I wonder how much sense it makes to continue to talk about sensor size like it actually matters anymore, performance wise...
If BSI turns out to be the magic bullet a lot of people are making it out to be right now, does Sony even need a camera with the 33x44 sensor in it, if it'll end up performing about the same as the A7RII? If it achieves performance parity, then it would render the MF option a novelty, at least until BSI makes it into medium format.
If bigger isn't better, why are we bothering with full frame? Everyone should move on to RX 100s.
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If bigger isn't better, why are we bothering with full frame? Everyone should move on to RX 100s.
There's a rule of diminishing returns. In theory, with very sharp lenses and much deeper full wells than we have today we could drop down to RX 100 size and get just as good image quality, but it isn't possible today.
However 135 fullframe has managed closing in on MF, both thanks to sensor technology but also new lens designs like Zeiss Otus. MF still has an edge on lenses and probably will have for many years.
Digital has changed the rules of format size importance, it was different when all formats shared the same image "sensor" ie film, to get more resolution and less noise you needed more film area. With digital there is the possibility to reduce pixel size, reduce noise and increase well depth to compensate. Lens manufacturing technology has also made it possible to make smaller lenses sharper.
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All I know and care about is that every time I open a file from my MF rig, I get astonished by it. I don't have remotely the same feeling from the files form my 35mm rig.
This is my very personal opinion and I am entitled to it.
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All I know and care about is that every time I open a file from my MF rig, I get astonished by it. I don't have remotely the same feeling from the files form my 35mm rig.
This is my very personal opinion and I am entitled to it.
What happened to you? Your career take off or you find the love of your life or something? You sound much more reasoned.
Edmund
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Sony is a big ass company. They need big sales numbers to move the needle even a little. Medium Format really doesn't make sense for them. Sony is looking for the next Walkman.
So why then did they release the RX1? A complex, expensive product that didn't have the slightest chance of becoming the "next walkman"?
The masses probably want convenience, portability, "always works", low cost. They are covered nicely with cellphones (or a continually larger percentage of them will be as cellphone tech improves).
The slightly more demanding users (but still large numbers) perhaps wants specs like "lots of zoom", "4k", "slow-motion". I'd say that the RX100M4/RX10M2 hit spot-on.
So why are Sony meddling with MF sensors, RX1, A7rII and the like? Perhaps they want "halo" products. Perhaps they need to test concepts in small scale/high margin before hitting the volume products. Perhaps they have enthusiasts among their staff? Anyways, if they dared to do the RX1, I'd say that doing an "RX0.1" featuring the MF sensor seems _possible_.
-h
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So why then did they release the RX1? A complex, expensive product that didn't have the slightest chance of becoming the "next walkman"?
The masses probably want convenience, portability, "always works", low cost. They are covered nicely with cellphones (or a continually larger percentage of them will be as cellphone tech improves).
The slightly more demanding users (but still large numbers) perhaps wants specs like "lots of zoom", "4k", "slow-motion". I'd say that the RX100M4/RX10M2 hit spot-on.
So why are Sony meddling with MF sensors, RX1, A7rII and the like? Perhaps they want "halo" products. Perhaps they need to test concepts in small scale/high margin before hitting the volume products. Perhaps they have enthusiasts among their staff? Anyways, if they dared to do the RX1, I'd say that doing an "RX0.1" featuring the MF sensor seems _possible_.
-h
Sony see themselves as much as a "movie studio" as a tech firm: They do big and small productions, and expect a roller-coaster ride with some unexpected successes rather than predictable sales numbers.
Edmund
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Everyone should move on to RX 100s.
I am amazed at what the RX100 can do when moderate wide-angle f/5 - equivalent, sensible amounts of light and somewhat slow focus will do.
If you can/want to work within those constraints, I am guessing that many of us would be better off improving ones artistic skills rather than spending lots of cash on upgrades (if/when those are ever in conflict).
I find the lack of interchangeable lens and viewfinder to be too constraining for me to make it my only camera.
-h
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Sony see themselves as much as a "movie studio" as a tech firm: They do big and small productions, and expect a roller-coaster ride with some unexpected successes rather than predictable sales numbers.
Edmund
Interesting analogy. But aren't the investors of Hollywood more into predictable follow-ups, franchises and "doing whatever the other guys did with success last year" rather than exciting, experimental, novel, etc films?
I very much agree with your view of Sony cameras: they seem to test out all of the concepts they can think of, then see what floats. Interesting strategy if you have the manpower and financial muscle to do it.
Reminds me of Yamaha and the other Japanese manufacturers captured (large parts of) the musical instruments market from European and US manufacturers in the 70s/80s: flood the market with good and bad products for some time. Eventually, you will find the winning formula and the small-scale "boutique" competitors will never be able to keep up (every product they design reportedly _have_ to be a success, or their financial backing goes away. Thus they cannot persue high-risk/long-development strategies that are more likely to win in the long run).
-h
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If bigger isn't better, why are we bothering with full frame? Everyone should move on to RX 100s.
It depends... bigger is better if you can maintain parity between the technology used across all sensor sizes, which we all know isn't so most of the time. By the time the Pentax 645X comes out with a 5-axis stabilizer and a 60mp BSI sensor, the Sony A9 will be out with a bayerless sensor based on micro color splitters or something, and who knows maybe the IQ480 will still be using CCD.
All I know and care about is that every time I open a file from my MF rig, I get astonished by it. I don't have remotely the same feeling from the files form my 35mm rig.
This is my very personal opinion and I am entitled to it.
My opinion is much the same, every time I moved to a larger format the feel of the images was superior to the last, and having looked at the honestly very early A7RII images, they don't look nearly as nice as what I could with the Pentax. Even so, the A7RII is a fraction of the size and weight and is silent, so it would be more appropriate to use where the 645Z would not be. Having never shot 6x6 or 6x7, the 645Z has the loudest shutter actuation I've heard on a camera. I wouldn't mind owning both, if the budget allowed for it, but I'd much rather get one of the new Pentax lenses before a new camera system.
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My opinion is much the same, every time I moved to a larger format the feel of the images was superior to the last, and having looked at the honestly very early A7RII images, they don't look nearly as nice as what I could with the Pentax. Even so, the A7RII is a fraction of the size and weight and is silent, so it would be more appropriate to use where the 645Z would not be. Having never shot 6x6 or 6x7, the 645Z has the loudest shutter actuation I've heard on a camera. I wouldn't mind owning both, if the budget allowed for it, but I'd much rather get one of the new Pentax lenses before a new camera system.
I agree and I think pretty much every MF user has a secondary rig for those situations you described. I look at my MF rig as a specialized kit that I use when I have the time to carefully plan a shot. For everything else, including traveling, I use the 35mm rig.
I personally am looking at the A7R II as a replacement of my Nikon rig. There's no real reason for me to lug around something that's 70% as big as my MF kit for image quality that is delivered by something far smaller. In this case, the Sony.
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The high resolution 135 lenses are monsters though in terms of size and weight, so with lens I think the difference overall difference in size compared to an DSLR is minor. Only if we start seeing lenses that make use of BSI and are more symmetrical and tech-cam like we could see something seriously more compact with maintained or even increased image quality. That won't happen though as general purpose photography needs wide apertures and then you loose the ability to design small lightweight optics which is also sharp.
In the shorter term I think the A7rII will be strongest with adapters and Canon and Zeiss lenses. Just hope that the quality of adapters will be there, it's been shaky so far.
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...For 7 years the world is stuck in a stagnant economy and it effects the professional and consumer markets for every dollar, pound, euro, yen, peso etc. spent...
BC, my question was more whether you had a sense of how much market penetration HB still has amongst pros you know and whether they are, like you, just running on 7-10 year old gear that is perfectly fine and has paid for itself 10x over, or are people buying new stuff?
No question the pro market is nowhere near the lifeblood of the MF industry that it used to be. I'm more curious whether there's any real blood left there at all? No young pro should be spending $30K on a new MF camera today. They should buy motion, and video skills, and the help of good publicists or something.
The other interesting thing is your perception of the slow economy. I hear that all over, have no doubt it's true (especially if I drive through places like upstate NY), but I just don't see it where I am. Photography kind of sucks in a lot of ways, commercially here too, from what people tell me, but mostly for structural reasons around image purchase/use.
The one sure thing is the field is changing. And fast. Gear, the work, everything. Glad I don't have to pay the bills with it.
- N.
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Hi,
I am a bit optimistic, the Batis line of lenses holds some promise.
On the adcapter front I don´t know, making a precision adapter should be trivial. No reason adapters can hold say 5 micron precision.
Best regards
Erik
The high resolution 135 lenses are monsters though in terms of size and weight, so with lens I think the difference overall difference in size compared to an DSLR is minor. Only if we start seeing lenses that make use of BSI and are more symmetrical and tech-cam like we could see something seriously more compact with maintained or even increased image quality. That won't happen though as general purpose photography needs wide apertures and then you loose the ability to design small lightweight optics which is also sharp.
In the shorter term I think the A7rII will be strongest with adapters and Canon and Zeiss lenses. Just hope that the quality of adapters will be there, it's been shaky so far.
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a quick reminder of where we came from... it was not that long ago I was shooting my location shots with a zoom roll film back, I could shoot 645 or larger... at the time I really did not think there was that much difference in final image quality between a 6x6 shot and a 6x9 and picked the format to suit the final proportion of the media it was headed for... my point is there is less difference now between a ff 42mp sony shot and a mf back on xyz. The flexibility of this sony fe platform makes it a great professional tool and I for one am glad it is getting air time here.
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a quick reminder of where we came from... it was not that long ago I was shooting my location shots with a zoom roll film back, I could shoot 645 or larger... at the time I really did not think there was that much difference in final image quality between a 6x6 shot and a 6x9 and picked the format to suit the final proportion of the media it was headed for... my point is there is less difference now between a ff 42mp sony shot and a mf back on xyz. The flexibility of this sony fe platform makes it a great professional tool and I for one am glad it is getting air time here.
Very true. Worse, considering image stabilization, EFC, AF accross the frame taken on the sensor,... you are in fact likely to get better image quality with the a7rII compared to the 50mp backs in a majority of real life situations when using top lenses such as the Zeiss Batis, especially in non controlled light.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Very true. Worse, considering image stabilization, EFC, AF accross the frame taken on the sensor,... you are in fact likely to get better image quality with the a7rII compared to the 50mp backs in a majority of real life situations when using top lenses such as the Zeiss Batis, especially in non controlled light.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard,
Either you are breaking your NDA, or you have no idea what a production A7RII + production Batis lens will actually do in real life.
The peasant Pentacam and its more bourgeois refined colleagues may be snobs, but they are known quantities, people have sod images from them.
What we are seeing here is that no existing camera can win against the camera of the imagination, as photographers are nothing if not artists :)
Best regards from the land of the wine guzzling and cheese eating surrender monkeys :)
Edmund
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I also have my doubts that Sony will enter the MF market. BUT, why the heck did they develop their 50Mpix MF sensor then ? Just to sell it as a chip ? To test the waters and see how big a market MF is ? Sounds a bit strange.
So, my vote says "yes", for perhaps an A7R on MF-steroids.
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Either you are breaking your NDA, or you have no idea what a production A7RII + production Batis lens will actually do in real life.
Actual tests will show, but I don't see why I would be very far off based on the various reports I hear. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Sony make a medium format camera? This is absurd. Can't people be happy with what they have ?
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All I know and care about is that every time I open a file from my MF rig, I get astonished by it. I don't have remotely the same feeling from the files form my 35mm rig.
I agree with this as well. I even still marvel at my now very old Phase p20 shots with my Rollei 6008AF, not just my 80mp AFi-ii12. I do think bigger can be better. It would be fantastic to see 5 axis stabilization in a MFDB.
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I also have my doubts that Sony will enter the MF market. BUT, why the heck did they develop their 50Mpix MF sensor then ?
They called the MF digital sellers, and three of them agreed to tak pre-orders, worked out a profit margin and made them. Or, the sellers approached them, singly or as a group and asked/offered development money/pre-order guarantees and it was worth it financially now/ or future possible internal use.
There are many scenarios possible and I have avoided the world domination of camera sensors as a possible.
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My feeling is Sony will do something with MF, just not sure what. Maybe they'll surprise us all.
Jim
P.S. Here's an idea - every 5 minutes I hear that HB are looking for new owners - maybe Sony should just buy them and be done with it. That will give them the system they need to get up and running and, at the same time, allow them to keep their sensor technology to themselves.
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I don't see Sony going into MF, but I've been wrong before.
Also with regard to HB, I think they got another years worth of run from their financiers …. but will their new Lusso (rebadged sony A7R at $12k) save them?
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Wandering further OT ;) I wonder why HB don't take the wood grip fixation they have to make a H system grip in wood?
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A solid wood battery holder?
Well no, obviously the current "rubber" grip isn't solid rubber there is a battery in the middle. I was thinking of a battery covered (encased) in a lovingly handcrafted, individually selected, ethically sourced wood ;D At a price ;)
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Also with regard to HB, I think they got another years worth of run from their financiers …. but will their new Lusso (rebadged sony A7R at $12k) save them?
I didn't think the rebadged Sony's were very successful or popular but after reading the customer reviews on B&H I am starting to think I might be completely wrong...:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1059917-REG/hasselblad_1105028_hasselblad_stellar.html
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Actually I think the wood grip looks kind of handsome on the A7. Of course, the price is totally ridiculous. I wonder whyHB always announces when the model from Sony goes obsolete.
Do they have a death wish?
Eduardo
I didn't think the rebadged Sony's were very successful or popular but after reading the customer reviews on B&H I am starting to think I might be completely wrong...:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1059917-REG/hasselblad_1105028_hasselblad_stellar.html
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I didn't think the rebadged Sony's were very successful or popular but after reading the customer reviews on B&H I am starting to think I might be completely wrong...:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1059917-REG/hasselblad_1105028_hasselblad_stellar.html
Well with a $2300 instant savings (70% reduction) they are starting to look more attractive. But I saw them at Photokina and was not ….lets say... overwhelmed by them in person.
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But I'm not sure if still photography on a commercial level is dead. Yes video is the rage and we've dove deep into it, but I've seen our video briefs in the last two years go from a series of 3 minute videos that can be cut down to segments, to 2 minutes, this year 1 minute and less. Soon I'll bet they're 10 seconds and if your media buy is based on small electronic advertising a still or two will probably work better than a 10 second video.
IMO
BC
I often hear from people, usually photographers looking for a silver bullet, and businesses, usually camera companies trying to sell you something, that video is the wave of the future. And every time, I always think back to an article I read in the NY Times a few years ago, which I wish I would have saved but did not.
It turns out, for the most part, people do not remember videos, no matter how good they are. Yes, I know, good movies can really inspire someone, but for advertising, how many video clips really stay with you.
However, great images, people remember.
The researchers found that the problem with videos is the story is already created. It has nothing to do with you. The actions, dialogue, theme, music, etc have been created by someone else and none of it is yours. You have no involvement other then watching the video.
With a great image, so many things are open to interpretation. What just happened, what is going to happen, what are they talking about, what are they thinking about, why does this space look like it does, etc. With a great image, people get sucked in and start filling in the gaps with their own ideas of what the image is about. Essentially, the viewer makes up a story, specific to that viewer, to go along with that picture.
That makes it personal, and that is why people are more likely to remember great images over great videos.
I had this experience last night. I went to see Greg Heisler talk, and well, you can't help getting sucked into his work and trying to figure out what is going on. Someone even asked him about it and how he manages to pull it off so well.
So, IMHO, I think images are still very important.
I mean look at music videos, who really watches them anymore? Who really produces them anymore?
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J,
I think the guy who pulled that analogy was a Sony CEO, undoubtedly well aware of all the necessary data. I cannot remember whether I read it in the press when I lived in Japan, or whether it was quoted to me in person by the then head of research of Sony Japan, when explaining their strategy to me in Tokyo. My impression is the latter.
The relationship between Sony Japan headquarters and its US branches has historically been complex, and as a professional journalist (just as you are a professional photographer) I am well aware that what is said on one side does not necessarily reflect what is practised on the other, although I suspect that when it comes to major personnel or financial decisions headquarters may well have the last word.
Sony Japan has a history of launching and publicizing very innovative form factors and product lines in the hope that something will catch the fancy of the public and start a trend. Sometimes this works, as with Walkman, often it yields a product which undersells and gets canned - remember the AIBO robot dog? Sony is the ONLY major japanese company which does this AFAIK, it is their company culture.
Edmund
Edmund, You need to learn to google a little more in your research.
Since as usual this type of not announced yet product goes way off topic, I think there should be some clarity.
Sony DOES expect predicable profits from their investment. All of their investments. Without that, there is no Sony.
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Now that's some quality backpedaling.
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Synn,
we should have a beer together sometime, I seem to find myself agreeing with you so often these days ... although not this time :)
Edmund
Now that's some quality backpedaling.
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That is beautifully put Joe. Thank you. When you find that article please do share with us.
I often hear from people, usually photographers looking for a silver bullet, and businesses, usually camera companies trying to sell you something, that video is the wave of the future. And every time, I always think back to an article I read in the NY Times a few years ago, which I wish I would have saved but did not.
It turns out, for the most part, people do not remember videos, no matter how good they are. Yes, I know, good movies can really inspire someone, but for advertising, how many video clips really stay with you.
However, great images, people remember.
The researchers found that the problem with videos is the story is already created. It has nothing to do with you. The actions, dialogue, theme, music, etc have been created by someone else and none of it is yours. You have no involvement other then watching the video.
With a great image, so many things are open to interpretation. What just happened, what is going to happen, what are they talking about, what are they thinking about, why does this space look like it does, etc. With a great image, people get sucked in and start filling in the gaps with their own ideas of what the image is about. Essentially, the viewer makes up a story, specific to that viewer, to go along with that picture.
That makes it personal, and that is why people are more likely to remember great images over great videos.
I had this experience last night. I went to see Greg Heisler talk, and well, you can't help getting sucked into his work and trying to figure out what is going on. Someone even asked him about it and how he manages to pull it off so well.
So, IMHO, I think images are still very important.
I mean look at music videos, who really watches them anymore? Who really produces them anymore?
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I am surrounded by people in the motion images industry. My best friend owns a post-production house and I am friends with DP's AC's and other crew that work mostly in Motion Picture Projects and Commercials. My passion for the still image is so strong that I have not ventured into motion image creation. The still image to me, the moment, the timing, the craft is just so different. Like most good things it takes a lifetime to perfect and one is always learning, changing and "evolving". The way it is captured, processed/worked and presented might change but the still image still has something that strikes a fire in me. And in a lot of people. I don't think that will ever change.
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Commercial photography covers only one aspect of photography. There are several other subgenres within the artform that are perfectly content with staying within the realm of still photography.
Sure, advertising budgets might be shrinking and clients might be looking for mode videos than stills. But that's not something that can be extrapolated to all of photography.
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Hi,
I would think we will see more motion and perhaps less stills. Why? Because media moves from print to screen and motion is a good match screen.
In my view, we also are going to see more 4K. The reason 4K starts slowly is that screen are small and viewing distances far.
Getting back to the original question of Sony entering the MF market, they have done that. Pentax 645Z, IQ-250, Hasselblad 50c backs are all Sony sesnors. Sony could build a RX-1 type of camera with a 50 MP 44x33 sensor at ease, but I am not sure it makes any sense to me.
One thing that may make a lot of sense would be a 36x36 sensor, encompassing 24x36, 36x24 and 30x30 (or even 36x36 with some compromise), Such a system would work with most 35 mm lenses. Assuming 8K resolution this would deliver 39.3 MP on full frame 24x36 and 41 MP on 30x30. Using the full sensor we would have 59 MP square format. Many DSLR lenses would cover that area, albeit with reduced corner performance.
Best regards
Erik
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I doubt Sony will enter this market segment. They are far, far too big to care about MF given the market size in money terms, motion picture and high end audio are much bigger. They are probably more interested in the 4k video market.
If anything they are more about knocking off CaNikon’s high end more ‘consumer’ cameras and have their hands full struggling to produce a lens line for their FE mount. Sony also don’t have much of a clue about what to offer in high end cameras either, we have ‘play memories’ and all sorts of garbage along with lossy compressed RAW in their top end cameras.
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Hasselblad coming to their senses:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/hasselblad-changes-strategy-no-more-luxury-sony-cam-versions-focus-on-unique-medium-format-cameras-made-with-sony/
and perhaps partnering with Sony?