Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: Niels_Patrick on June 12, 2015, 04:11:23 am
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Anyone considering of buying the A7r II for strictly 4k video use?
Do you see any disadvantages so far in the specs?
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Same old 8 bit ungradable flouro sony colours?
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Not planning to buy, but very impressive specs for 4K. The 42mp sensor is wide enough to to use double the 4K UHD 2160x3840 px frame dimensions, with 4:1 pixel binning output, and only an additional 3.5% insignificant horizontal crop factor (vs GH4's 20% additional). Also a "Super 35mm" crop mode that should give about a 1.5x crop factor. It records 4K internally - which for the A7s is a huge lack.
It's doubtful that the 5-axis IBIS will be functional in 4K shooting, though, due to sensor heat buildup issues, as I'm sure this would have been stated in their promo info.
Should be a superb hi-res stills body also...
Pete
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Thanks for the feedback. I need to buy a 4K video camera - in this pricerange the sony vs panasonic gh4 will be the major question.
I will update you ...
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You know, everybody wants a small lightweight package that costs little, does a lot and tends to think that if a panasonic or Sony is 4k at 2 to 3 grand then why would anyone buy an F5, a RED, a Canon C 300 II or even a Blackmagic, until they start working the file.
Correct. This is like shoes. We can buy a 1 buck pair of jeans or shirt in a Zara shop and it's fine. But if we mess with cheap shoes, it doesn't work.
This is where IMO the Alexa shines: NO hassles. but it's not for most of us.
The only camera file look I've really felt in love with is this Digital Bolex 16mm. Organic, volumetric, superb, elegant...with light.
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Just a word about Sony's so-called "flouro colors". No disagreement from me, but if you shoot S-LOG then you get a decent flat desaturated image.
Something like LUT Utility from Color Grading Central makes creating a REC709 or other normalization quick, simple and inexpensive. No need to be stuck with the regular Sony profiles.
Yes, it's still 8 bit, but unless one is doing green screen or other heavy grading the files from Sony cameras with S-LOG can be very usable.
I have a Sony 7RII on order and plan on using it extensively for video as well as stills. Not an FS7, or a 7s with Shogun, but much more versatile and less expensive.
Michael
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My thoughts are a mix between James and Michael's
They are both right.
Is there a mystic on those chromaSubsamp, Bitdeph and so on? I beleive there is indeed and at the same time they are important.
I've done in the past many testings on grading from 8 bit proxies vs HR 444 etc...from above and below, from NLE to NUKE or whatever posible combination to see if...the IQ mantra in search of the perfection within projects that don't require it, we all have through it. From Alexa's files 444 and their corresponding proxies...no differences!! ,
unless a serious manipulation is required, (with keying and all the artillery) I can not perceive any sort of magical improvements or they are so subtle that unless you plan to Project in theaters,
it will be not noticiable, and I have a trained eye.
We have reached the point now that we see millions of "my-hollydays-in-cancun" or "look-how-smart-i-drive-the-moutain-bike" barking in indignation when they see 8bit specs etc and internet is now inundated by 4k and raw video as the Golden rule for everyone. It's like if we were seeing people all driving Hamilton's formula 1 at 100km/h and crashing at every corner...
Give me a good Prores or DnX and that's just fine.
Now...on a paid set, that's another story. So, important, relatively, it depends. For us in 99% of the cases, it's just tech jargon without real consequences and we can happily grade in 8 bits 422 perfectly.
Ps: and on the other hand, YES the profiles are important and make a real difference. Shoot Log is indeed a wise practise.
Ps2: now...this digital Bolex is...sexy!
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And also another meditation that has to do with all that.
I thought that the recurrent debates on IQ and MF in LuLa were a specific mark of this site?...very far from true. Check in the Cow and you'll see.
It's my-camera, my-system and everybody talks ultra tech and have Hollywood requirements.
Now...North America is a very different animal than Europe.
In Europe, we don't have that much small houses like in North America. Or it is high-end, or you die, period. And in the high-end, the workflow is, and still will be, collaborative and a matter of specialists. An editor is an editor and a colorist is a colorist. There are exceptions but they just confirm the rule.
In the US it is different. But then...
I see all those small houses pros, extremely stressed, extremely techs, extremely demanding in terms of equipments and requirements, but for the most part, all they have to produce are regional Works. Do they really need the jewellery store of my district been shooted in 4K ? 95% of the tasks those dudes will ever have to do is grade decently.
So we are in the same paradox as we all knew in still imagery.
Do someone reasonably wise, really beleive that those houses need to roundtripp to Nuke everyday? There is a gap between what the big prods are doin and what we are doing, but we'd like to produce the big fishe's imagery on our miserable workstations? Come on! And even, it's perfectly posible to produce a great feature film with I.phones. But where the big artillery enters into action then?
Men, all is a mirage and tech smog.
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Fred,
Thanks for pointing out that sometimes the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.
I think that I am very similar to many readers here. I enjoy new gear and take pleasure in using top cameras, lenses and production tools.
But, I also know that, as I've written here before, "Most cameras are better than most photographers". And by camera, I mean lenses and other tools as well.
I recently bought the Sony PX 28-135mm cine zoom to use on the upcoming A7RII. Right now I'm testing and playing with the PZ on the A7II. I'll be using the PZ on a major stills and video shoot that I have coming up in Ethiopia later this year.
Is it the best run-and-gun cine lens available? No. For that one needs to be prepared to pay $20-$50K. But for $2,500 it's a freek'n bargain, and likely more than good enough for my application.
Similarly with the A7RII. Of course the Sony FS7 would be better, but not so good as a stills camera, and I need both, since we'll be hiking and camping in the desert and I can only have one.
Michael
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Another thought.
If shooting professionally, you light scenes carefully and with regard to the camera's ability and have more time to get it right.
Now your amateur or single shooter pro with no lighting crew may actually need better performing kit to cope with the less ideal lighting, that these users will encounter.
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Is it the best run-and-gun cine lens available? No. For that one needs to be prepared to pay $20-$50K...
Exactly Michael. And if we could afford the 50K cine lens, the focus-puller would be included in the package.
What we can really do is trying to get the best Price-equipment that feets our real needs and allow us to do a good job the "easy" way.
In that sense, I must admit (and apologize) that with Chris, you were right at the very beginning of FCPX. Nobody beleived in it except a few guys like you,
and it results that it is in fact a great App, it makes the workflow easier and faster and fits the needs of 99% of what we'll ever have to do.
It is in that spirit that I also discovered Lightworks.
I think that we are in really exciting moments. Free softwares or very low-cost, extremely capables. I've discovered the Natron Project yesterday, started to test it: it is Nuke for free!
All over the world, people are organizing themselves and produce really great stuff now.
We do not need to be Hollyhood, we just need to be ourselves, and above all, keep the fun alive and having time for living the good life out of an editing room.
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On the 8bit v 10 bit thing. I just bought a Gh4, and the Yag box. (big price drops)
I went with that over the A7s judging on paper..
-XLR and power in, SDI out
-10 bit out (I already own a recorder)
Now I have not used a recorder yet - I dont want to what a pain! - anyway Ive been testing 100mb 4k Vs 200mb 1080 .. in a 1080 timeline in resolve.
Now I wonder if the 4k hits the timeline as 1080-10bit or what is going on because the 4k is a mile better when you put in a big grade.
What is doing this? well it is not data rate? (100 vs 200) it is not 10bit, because both sources are 8bit - so the conclusion is really that I guess numbers mean nothing and field performance means everything.
If this new sony has a non skipped 4k option (s35 crop?) Im guessing it might be good.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33167160/grade1.jpg)
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Just a word about Sony's so-called "flouro colors". No disagreement from me, but if you shoot S-LOG then you get a decent flat desaturated image.
I own the FS7 and find that the colour is great (shoot log, add LUT in post).. I have always assumed that this only really worked because the 10bit FS7 file can handle the shift, I have assumed that the 8bit A7s would just break.. Also most A7s stuff shot log is a bit odd like Mr Bloom CNN stuff looked off.
Seeing my post above we see that maybe bit depth is not all but there are more factors at work..
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Morgan,
I come to the same conclusions as you. This is a clear example.
Also, I could see that if I make 2 internet export from a 4k file and another
Version of it in 1080, both wrapped the same etc...but just the reso differing, the
Results of the compression are much better handled from a 4k file and
Visible. That was already the case in stills.
It seems that resolution has a much bigger impact than other factors.
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Just a word about Sony's so-called "flouro colors". No disagreement from me, but if you shoot S-LOG then you get a decent flat desaturated image.
Something like LUT Utility from Color Grading Central makes creating a REC709 or other normalization quick, simple and inexpensive. No need to be stuck with the regular Sony profiles.
Yes, it's still 8 bit, but unless one is doing green screen or other heavy grading the files from Sony cameras with S-LOG can be very usable.
I have a Sony 7RII on order and plan on using it extensively for video as well as stills. Not an FS7, or a 7s with Shogun, but much more versatile and less expensive.
Michael
Michael,
do you envision that for video shooting the 7RII could replace the need for AX100? Or is there still a good case for simpler and more productive shooting with the AX100?
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So many pros and cons both ways. The AX100 is small and light, has built in ND's and a lens with a large range.
The much shallower DOF of the A7RII makes it a much different animal.
If you can't have both, then you have to choose which combination of features best meets your needs.
Michael
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Thank you, Michael, for pointing out again the AX100's built-in features.
Those two Sonys are, indeed, quite different animals.
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Just read reviews of this camera on B&H.
A videographer found that the camera overheats when shooting 4K, shuts down, deletes the file being recorded, and takes a long time to cool down.
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Just read reviews of this camera on B&H.
A videographer found that the camera overheats when shooting 4K, shuts down, deletes the file being recorded, and takes a long time to cool down.
I think the A7SII is the one that is specced as a video camera; the R can do video, but no guarantees.
Edmund
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Just read reviews of this camera on B&H.
A videographer found that the camera overheats when shooting 4K, shuts down, deletes the file being recorded, and takes a long time to cool down.
This is a single instance report.
Yes, it is known that the A7RII can overheat, particularly in warm conditions and when shooting long continuous takes.
I have been shooting 4K video with an A7rII since the camera was announced and have never had overheating. Another one instance report.
I'd simply add that these cameras are for occasional use shooting video, not for filming long single take events such as a football game or a concert.
In any event, for serious filming applications something like the new Sony FS5 would be a better choice.
Michael
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This is a single instance report.
Yes, it is known that the A7RII can overheat, particularly in warm conditions and when shooting long continuous takes.
I have been shooting 4K video with an A7rII since the camera was announced and have never had overheating. Another one instance report.
I'd simply add that these cameras are for occasional use shooting video, not for filming long single take events such as a football game or a concert.
In any event, for serious filming applications something like the new Sony FS5 would be a better choice.
Michael
Another report from London in August - not exactly Baghdad - due to the double-edged sword of the mag-lev 5-axis IBIS that prevents sensor fixation to a heat sink, and a body too small to accommodate a fan system. Which no doubt explains why Olympus has no 4K in it's otherwise exemplary bodies, and why Pan.'s GX8 inactivates it's less effective IBIS in 4K mode...
http://www.newsshooter.com/2015/08/02/sony-a7r-ii-part-iii-5-axis-stabilisation-and-heat-issues-going-handheld-to-tell-the-story-of-a-london-busker/
Pete
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Hi,
I would agree on the issue being a single instance report. Obviously it can happen, under certain conditions. In many cases it helps to flip out the LCD for better cooling.
But, as Michael points out, the A7rII is not intended to be used as a video camera. Video is just a bonus option. Now, I would say it is a real bonus. I often present my images as slide shows, which today often means video showing stills. Adding motion enhances the slide show.
So, I would say the video capability is a real bonus and the A7rII does that better than most full frame DSLRs.
But, if the main focus is motion, a motion camera may be the better option.
And just to say, for the f/8 and be there stuff, nothing beats an iPhone except perhaps an Android based phone :-)
Best regards
Erik
This is a single instance report.
Yes, it is known that the A7RII can overheat, particularly in warm conditions and when shooting long continuous takes.
I have been shooting 4K video with an A7rII since the camera was announced and have never had overheating. Another one instance report.
I'd simply add that these cameras are for occasional use shooting video, not for filming long single take events such as a football game or a concert.
In any event, for serious filming applications something like the new Sony FS5 would be a better choice.
Michael
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My videographer partner is using his A7S-2 today to do work at a trade show. The one problem he is having is with scrolling on monitors in the backgrounds of the shots. He needs variable shutter speeds to fine tune the scrolling out but they don't exist on that camera. Another situation where a dedicated video cam might have been a better choice.
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My videographer partner is using his A7S-2 today to do work at a trade show. The one problem he is having is with scrolling on monitors in the backgrounds of the shots. He needs variable shutter speeds to fine tune the scrolling out but they don't exist on that camera. Another situation where a dedicated video cam might have been a better choice.
FS7 has loads of shutter speeds in ECLS mode - certainly done jobs where the FS7 handled the screens and the b cam (7d2) could not.
S
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You guys are all looking for the shmoo.
Shmoos are delicious to eat, and are eager to be eaten. If a human looks at one hungrily, it will happily immolate itself — either by jumping into a frying pan, after which they taste like chicken, or into a broiling pan, after which they taste like steak. When roasted they taste like pork, and when baked they taste like catfish. (Raw, they taste like oysters on the half-shell.)
They also produce eggs (neatly packaged), milk (bottled, grade-A), and butter—no churning required. Their pelts make perfect bootleather or house timber, depending on how thick you slice it.
They have no bones, so there's absolutely no waste. Their eyes make the best suspender buttons, and their whiskers make perfect toothpicks. In short, they are simply the perfect ideal of a subsistence agricultural herd animal.
Naturally gentle, they require minimal care, and are ideal playmates for young children. The frolicking of shmoon is so entertaining (such as their staged "shmoosical comedies") that people no longer feel the need to watch television or go to the movies.
I think your chances of finding a universal camera this year are about equivalent to my chances of seeing Christmas shopping crowds in the Paris streets. Sorry about the joke, but when Providence gives you lemons you drink lemonade.
Edmund
All I can say is if your going Sony A7RII is to rent and test or make a agreement with the dealer for return if you don't like it.
I personally am underwhelmed by the A7sII I bought and honestly in the same scene, same lighting, same conditions, the 70d held more detail throughout the range with the only drawback is the 70d is line skipped 2k the Sony is uhd.
The A7rII might make better motion imagery than the S so . . .
Once again, before you drop into the new system world of lenses, bodies, cages etc., rent one, shoot under the conditions you would normally shoot, grade and look at the footage.
IMO
BC