Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => But is it Art? => Topic started by: ripgriffith on June 08, 2015, 01:48:36 pm

Title: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: ripgriffith on June 08, 2015, 01:48:36 pm
O so it was said by one Fred Barnard, an advertising man in the 1920s  If this is in fact true, why the demand for highly-detailed captions?
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Isaac on June 08, 2015, 02:12:19 pm
Is there a demand for highly-detailed captions?

"One picture may be worth a thousand words" when the picture has a caption, but not without a caption.

Someone also said -- "No photograph should need a caption, but every photograph must have one (http://books.google.com/books?id=Ggk_lMRquuIC&lpg=SA2-PA3&ots=kRv90-cte5&dq=%22no%20photograph%20should%20need%20a%20caption.%22&pg=SA2-PA4#v=onepage&q=%22No%20photograph%20should%20need%20a%20caption,%20but%20every%20photograph%20must%20have%20one.%22%22&f=false)".
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Otto Phocus on June 08, 2015, 02:16:26 pm
I believe it was Napoleon who said that a sketch was worth a thousand words.

The reason for well written captions is that while a good photograph should be able to stand on its own to everyone, everyone has a different perception when looking at a photograph. So if it is important for the viewer to understand a specific viewpoint, or where one detail is the focus of the story, a well written caption can help ensure that the viewer is at least aware of the viewpoint.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: amolitor on June 08, 2015, 02:26:59 pm
Perhaps the 1000 words is a multiplier.

Zero words of caption: 0 x 1000 = 0
1 word of caption: 1 x 1000 = 1000
10 words of caption: 10 x 1000 = 10,000
etc.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Johnny_Johnson on June 08, 2015, 05:41:12 pm
I've found, at least on LL, that my interest in an image usually varies inversely with the number of words written to introduce it.

Later,
Johnny
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: stamper on June 09, 2015, 03:44:16 am
Nothing worse than seeing an image that has for a caption the edit - edit xxxx tag - or something similar - from LR or PS that the poster hasn't changed to something that is pleasing. It takes about 30 seconds to think of a proper caption and should be mandatory or not posted at all.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: ripgriffith on June 09, 2015, 05:03:24 am
I've found, at least on LL, that my interest in an image usually varies inversely with the number of words written to introduce it.

Later,
Johnny
This is equally applicable to many posts here.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: stamper on June 09, 2015, 05:33:13 am
There are a lot of members here who could explain matters better with half the amount of words that they generally use.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Diego Pigozzo on June 09, 2015, 06:05:37 am
O so it was said by one Fred Barnard, an advertising man in the 1920s  If this is in fact true, why the demand for highly-detailed captions?

You should ask yourself if it is true for all kinds of images, not just for those explicitly designed to be understood from a potential buyer.
My answer to such question would be a simple "no, that' not true for all images".
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: ripgriffith on June 09, 2015, 09:20:00 am
You should ask yourself if it is true for all kinds of images, not just for those explicitly designed to be understood from a potential buyer.
My answer to such question would be a simple "no, that' not true for all images".
Of course, nothing is true for all images.  But for a significant number of images I exhibit, most of which are not context related, the questions come hard and fast, "who is this, where is this, what is this?".  These questions may help understand the context of the image, but to my mind, contribute nothing to the understanding of the image itself.  Case in point, none of these questions contribute materially to understanding the attached image, only the context of the image.  To know that this woman was sitting at a bus stop in  Malta tells you nothing about the image, only about the person in the image.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Diego Pigozzo on June 09, 2015, 09:46:07 am
Of course, nothing is true for all images.  But for a significant number of images I exhibit, most of which are not context related, the questions come hard and fast, "who is this, where is this, what is this?".  These questions may help understand the context of the image, but to my mind, contribute nothing to the understanding of the image itself.  Case in point, none of these questions contribute materially to understanding the attached image, only the context of the image.  To know that this woman was sitting at a bus stop in  Malta tells you nothing about the image, only about the person in the image.

Let's see if that's true: tell me something about that woman and show me how you extract the information from the photo.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: amolitor on June 09, 2015, 09:58:14 am
If everything there is in a picture could be coveted to words, why would you bother with the picture?
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: ripgriffith on June 09, 2015, 10:09:59 am
Let's see if that's true: tell me something about that woman and show me how you extract the information from the photo.

You don't need to know anything about this woman, only about the image of this woman.  You're confusing content with context.  You may make some assumptions about the woman, i.e., she's probably from north or central Africa; because of her dress, she's probably Muslim, and if one is knowledgeable about such things (I'm certainly not), perhaps even know exactly where in Africa she is from, but none of this has to do with the photograph itself.  The photograph is about form, shading, color, perceived texture, balance and harmony of the related parts.  To famously quote Gary Winogrand, "Photos have no narrative content. They only describe light on surface"
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Diego Pigozzo on June 09, 2015, 10:13:57 am
The photograph is about form, shading, color, perceived texture, balance and harmony of the related parts.  
To famously quote Gary Winogrand, "Photos have no narrative content. They only describe light on surface"

So you're saying that there is no such thing as a "portrait photo", a "landscape photo" and "an abstract photo"?



Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: ripgriffith on June 09, 2015, 10:52:50 am
So you're saying that there is no such thing as a "portrait photo", a "landscape photo" and "an abstract photo"?




These are words about a photograph, not the photograph itself. The image may contain within itself the information that it is a "portrait photo", or maybe not.  Is the image I posted a "portrait photo"?  Doesn't that phrase imply certain things about the relationship between photographer and subject?  Let me post another example: In both instances, neither subject was aware of my presence; in the first, I shot through a bus window; in the second, the young woman was over 100 meters away, shot with a 350mm lens.  Perhaps by "portrait photo", you only mean a picture of one person?  If so, then how would you differentiate between a formal studio portrait and the images I have posted?  Perhaps the term is a bit diffuse to be of any use.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Diego Pigozzo on June 09, 2015, 11:01:40 am
These are words about a photograph, not the photograph itself.
So you're making a distinction between the physical photograph and the photographic content.
But on this distinction, a photograph is not "about form, shading, color, perceived texture, balance and harmony of the related parts": it's just metallic silver atoms (or digital bits, or pigment on a paper).
In the same way, spoken language is not "about thoughs, feelings, comunication": it's just soundwaves in a certain frequency range.


Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: ripgriffith on June 09, 2015, 11:33:23 am
So you're making a distinction between the physical photograph and the photographic content.
But on this distinction, a photograph is not "about form, shading, color, perceived texture, balance and harmony of the related parts": it's just metallic silver atoms (or digital bits, or pigment on a paper).
In the same way, spoken language is not "about thoughs, feelings, comunication": it's just soundwaves in a certain frequency range.



Reductio ad absurdum!  Of course, you left out the action of light on those metallic silver atoms or digital bit, etc, just as you left out the collection of bits of soundwaves into phonemes into words, which make up language.  I'm sure this made a lot of sense to you when you wrote it, but seriously, you cannot believe that those two"arguments" you posited have anything to do with the subject at hand.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Diego Pigozzo on June 09, 2015, 11:50:46 am
Reductio ad absurdum!  Of course, you left out the action of light on those metallic silver atoms or digital bit, etc, just as you left out the collection of bits of soundwaves into phonemes into words, which make up language.  I'm sure this made a lot of sense to you when you wrote it, but seriously, you cannot believe that those two"arguments" you posited have anything to do with the subject at hand.
Of course they have nothing to do with the subject at hand, but neither Winogrand quote does.

The subject at hands is: "do some photos need words to properly convey the message they're trying to send?"

So what the "Photos have no narrative content. They only describe light on surface" have to do with this subject?

Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 09, 2015, 12:03:05 pm
... The subject at hands is: "do some photos need words to properly convey the message they're trying to send?"..

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Sometimes words help, sometimes distract. Simple.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Otto Phocus on June 09, 2015, 12:15:09 pm
Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Sometimes words help, sometimes distract. Simple.

That is the mature attitude to have.

Unfortunately, there are some who only want to deal in absolutes.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Diego Pigozzo on June 09, 2015, 12:18:17 pm
That is the mature attitude to have.
It's not mature: it's just sterile.
Saying that "just some photos need words and some others don't" stop you from asking what kinds of photo need words and what kind don't.



Unfortunately, there are some who only want to deal in absolutes.
Winogrand is one of that guys.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 09, 2015, 12:20:22 pm
... there are some who only want to deal in absolutes.

There are only absolutes in the world of digital... 0s and 1s. Some remain stuck in that mode when discussing photography, though. ;)
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 09, 2015, 12:25:39 pm
... what kinds of photo need words and what kind don't...

How long is a piece of string?
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Isaac on June 10, 2015, 12:01:20 pm
But for a significant number of images I exhibit, most of which are not context related, the questions come hard and fast, "who is this, where is this, what is this?".  These questions may help understand the context of the image, but to my mind, contribute nothing to the understanding of the image itself.

Perhaps those people wish to show some interest, to be polite; although they are not interested in "the image itself" they feel they should say something, and they feel comfortable asking basic questions about the content.

Perhaps they wish to be entertained by a story about the photograph. Perhaps they wish to have a story about the photograph which they can use as an anchor to hold onto the feeling they have about it.

Perhaps they wish to understand what moved you to take the photograph and do wish to understand "the image itself" but do not wish to reveal that they do not understand "the image itself" -- that would be embarrassing.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: pcgpcg on June 10, 2015, 02:39:46 pm
Good photos don't need a description, but buyers often do (need a description of a photo).
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Diego Pigozzo on June 10, 2015, 03:49:00 pm
Good photos don't need a description
So you're saying that nobody, nowhere in the world, will have his/her photographic fruition made better improved by words associated with a photo?

I'm asking because I can think quite a few example of the contrary, like the following two.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-A49cmN-oB2I/UKaPnz1z1lI/AAAAAAAAENs/OmhsO-bf2d4/s1600/araki11.jpg)

(http://www.rapatronic.net/rapatronic_02.jpg)
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: pcgpcg on June 10, 2015, 04:57:19 pm
because … ?
I'm just stating my opinion, and it's a generalization subject to exceptions.  IMO, a good photo does not require a description to resonate with the viewer. Once it does so, however, the viewer may want to know more, but supplying more is not a requirement unless you hope to make the viewer a buyer. Buyer's often have a desire to have some sort of connection to the art they've purchased - a description of what was occurring, what the photographer was experiencing, etc. Just my opinion. I've no desire to argue my subjective personal opinion because that's all it is. :)


Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Diego Pigozzo on June 10, 2015, 05:08:25 pm
I'm just stating my opinion, and it's a generalization subject to exceptions. I've no desire to argue my subjective personal opinion because that's all it is. :)
On what is your opinion based?
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: pcgpcg on June 10, 2015, 05:14:16 pm
On what is your opinion based?
My opinion that a good photo does not require a description is based on the fact that my favorite photos have no description, or at least none that I have read. For example, I like the photo of the cat that you posted very much. It has no description and I doubt that my reading a description would alter how the photo impacts me. I don't care for the second photo and reading a description wouldn't change my mind.

My opinion that buyers want descriptions is based on my experience selling my artwork.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Diego Pigozzo on June 10, 2015, 05:20:25 pm
My opinion that a good photo does not require a description is based on the fact that my favorite photos have no description, or at least none that I have read. My opinion that buyers want descriptions is based on my experience selling my artwork.
So what you meant was "the photos I like does not need description", which is a little different from "good photos don't need description".

Could your opinion be just an expression of your personal taste?
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: pcgpcg on June 10, 2015, 05:25:00 pm
So what you meant was "the photos I like does not need description", which is a little different from "good photos don't need description".
Could your opinion be just an expression of your personal taste?
Of course, that's what opinions are. Art is subjective. I consider art good if it speaks to me. :)
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Diego Pigozzo on June 10, 2015, 05:31:18 pm
Of course. :)

So your phrase "Good photos don't need a description" has the same universal value of the phrase "chocolate is better than strawberry", that is absolutly no universal value.


I like the photo of the cat that you posted very much. It has no description and I doubt that my reading a description would alter how the photo impacts me.
Don't you think that someone else could be impacted by the description of the photo?


I don't care for the second photo and reading a description wouldn't change my mind.
Again: don't you think that someone else could be impacted by the description of the photo?
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: pcgpcg on June 10, 2015, 05:40:57 pm
I've no desire to argue my subjective personal opinion because that's all it is. :)
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Diego Pigozzo on June 10, 2015, 05:43:26 pm
I've no desire to argue my subjective personal opinion because that's all it is. Smiley

I'm not asking you to discuss your personal opinion: I'm asking you if you think they have any universal (or even general) value.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Otto Phocus on June 11, 2015, 08:08:13 am

Could your opinion be just an expression of your personal taste?

Perhaps you are not sure of the definition of an opinion?  Opinions are always biased and reflects the feelings and impressions from the standpoint of the person making the opinion.

No one has ever said that an opinion has to be universal and a moment's thought would indicate that an opinion can't be universal.

An opinion is, by definition and its very nature, subjective.

One can agree with someone's opinion without being right.
One can disagree with someone's opinion without being wrong.
Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: Diego Pigozzo on June 11, 2015, 08:19:53 am
Perhaps you are not sure of the definition of an opinion?  Opinions are always biased and reflects the feelings and impressions from the standpoint of the person making the opinion.
So you're saying that "opinion" and "taste" are synonyms.


No one has ever said that an opinion has to be universal and a moment's thought would indicate that an opinion can't be universal.
You said it, with your choice of wording, because "Good photos don't need a description" is VERY different from "The photos I like don't need a description".



An opinion is, by definition and its very nature, subjective.
Your choice of wording suggested quite a different thing.


Title: Re: One Picture is Worth a Thousand Words
Post by: BobDavid on June 23, 2015, 12:10:36 am
I like pictures that stand alone as pictures. I like text accompanied by pictures and vice versa. As far as fine art photography goes, it all depends on the intent of the artist. Some artists are masters of combining text with images, others struggle with it, some fall flat on their faces.