Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: naturescott49 on May 31, 2015, 11:55:21 pm
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For the first time in nearly a decade of reading LuLa articles I find one I can really relate to. Arup Biswas has written a cogent, thoughtful and well-supported essay that offers discrete and immediately usable ideas for improving photography. Congrats to Arup! Now if Alain Briot would only read this and get off his self-righteous high horse (not to say that he doesn't have some good things to say, he's just so full of himself and elitism it's hard to find the wheat among the abundant chaff).
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I share your opinion on the vainglorious Briot marketing prattle that is an inevitable integer part of LuLa since many years.
Hey, they good thing is, no one is forcing you to read it.
As for your praise of Arup Biswas article, I read it, but honestly, I considered this marketing as well.
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I've found some of Alain Briot's writings extremely helpful. You just need to take the bits you find useful and leave the bits you don't, as with anything. I very much enjoyed Arup Biswas' essay, not only for the lovely images but also for widening the scope of what helps to make a good image. He mentioned meditation and I've found this a productive aid for photography too.
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It is sad that in this modern world it would appear often that people who have spent years studying and learning and gaining experience so as to be able to consistently produce excellent work and then take the trouble to try to share their learning and experience are referred to pejoratively as "elitist" by others who have not bothered to go through a similar rigorous process.
Elite performance surely is that for which we should all be striving.
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Krug,
Elite performance surely is that for which we should all be striving.
Happiness is a more worthwhile goal.
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For the first time in nearly a decade of reading LuLa articles I find one I can really relate to. Arup Biswas has written a cogent, thoughtful and well-supported essay that offers discrete and immediately usable ideas for improving photography. Congrats to Arup! Now if Alain Briot would only read this and get off his self-righteous high horse (not to say that he doesn't have some good things to say, he's just so full of himself and elitism it's hard to find the wheat among the abundant chaff).
Nearly a decade of reading articles and this is your first post to bad mouth a contributor?
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Why is it necessary to tear down one contributor to compliment another?
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Of course. Rob, happiness is perhaps the ultimate goal and we all must seek it in whatever ways work best for us personally.
However for me - and maybe for you too - if I set out to do something then doing it as well as I possibly can is what gives most, and best lasting, pleasure and satisfaction.
I agree wholeheartedly with Colorado David in that I cannot understand the need to knock one down in order to praise another. Arup Biswas had interesting views and Alain Briot has provided many essays that I have found valuable over the years. I certainly have not agreed with everything Alain Briot has said. Nor would I expect to with anybody but both of these people made me think - which I guess is what they set out to do.
All grist to the mill - some grist may be more readily 'digestible' but all .... elitist or populist .... may contribute something of value and if one thinks not then it can be politely ignored if one so wishes.
However for some of us there does seem to be rather too much mindless iconoclasm in the art world nowadays ... which is what provoked my somewhat intemperate response.
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Mostly I hate listicles, because mostly they're pointless lists of vague handwaving.
My standard is to read it and ask myself "what concrete thing can I actually put in to action here?" Usually the answer is "wow, nothing. 2000 words and there's literally not one single actionable suggestion here"
For an example, look at Arup's first bullet. There's literally nothing there that you can actually apply.
The other 7 bullets, though, all seem to contain at least one useful suggestion for something you can actually do. Oft-repeated suggestions? Yeah, pretty much. But what the heck, just because it's been said before doesn't mean it's not worth repeating, and the viewing frame one is one we don't get often enough.
So, 7 out of 8 -- that's world class, in the skeezy world of "N tips to pep up your snaps", well done Arup.
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Boy, these high-paying customers sure are a demanding lot.
-N.
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Here is the thing.
Yes, we are "product" not customers. But in order to be high quality product that's worth something, we need to be pretty happy. Give us worthless content, unusable web sites, draconian rules, and so on, and we'll simply vote with our feet. 99% of the internet is the husks of collapsed web sites.
So by giving feedback, but expressing what we do and do not like, we help the management. We allow the management to improve the quality of the product they deliver to the advertisers, and we may even help them measure the quality of the product. These forums give advertisers evidence that the "product" is present, and is paying attention. By being engaged, Michael and Kevin show their customers that they are actively working with the "product", the community, to keep the community active, interested, and above all, looking at ads and buying stuff.
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It is sad that in this modern world it would appear often that people who have spent years studying and learning and gaining experience so as to be able to consistently produce excellent work and then take the trouble to try to share their learning and experience are referred to pejoratively as "elitist" by others who have not bothered to go through a similar rigorous process.
Well said. I agree completely.
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Alain's elitist flavor comes not from his helpfulness, but from his not-infrequent references to his educational background.
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I particularly like #6, Don't Neglect Your Neighborhood. I need to define my neighborhood a little more closely. Currently I tend to photograph in the conservation areas, state parks, national forests, and national fish and wildlife refuges that are from 10 to 100 miles from the center of St. Louis. That is what I have considered my neighborhood.
After a few visits early on in my digital bird photography (to practice on the nearly tame Canada geese that infest make the park their home (wiping bottoms of shoes off on nearest pavement), I totally neglected the 900 acre city park that is 2 blocks from where I live. In the last five years, the park employees and volunteers have replanted a patch of prairie, revamped the water features, and are in the process of managing the forested area back to a variety of native tree species. This all attracts more wildlife and gives better backgrounds (with planning to avoid man-made backgrounds). I have rediscovered the park in the process of trying to stay somewhat less flabby (walk - jog trail) in the winter.
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Thank you Amolitor you have helped me to understand an attitude on this and other sites which has puzzled me in the past.
I am afraid that you are suffering from a delusion. We the consumers are not 'product' we are at most 'a by-product'.
The 'Product' is what Michael and Kevin and people like Alain work hard to make - which is interesting and informative articles and reviews for us to consume and, hopefully learn and benefit from.
The fact that such availability is possible is in part due to the fact that advertisers wish to place information about their products on this site because of the high level of the Lula product and which itself implies a high level of serious interest and discrimination in us the consumers.
However to elevate us the consumers to the status of 'product' is unbelievably egotistically misguided - but then to approach the articles with the intention of simply lifting specific 'tips to improve one's photos' is itself very simplistic and undervalues the essential ethos of such a site which is more aligned to the concept of distillation of ideas after careful and longer term analysis and consideration.
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In case nobody noticed, the OP, with exactly one post on LuLa in ten years, is serving the purpose of "salting the tip jar."
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Advertisers have no interest in placing ads next to essays, no matter how good or bad the essay.
Advertisers wish to place ads in front of potential buyers. The essays are not ever going to buy anything, but you or I might.
What Michael is selling on this web site is an audience.
Now, Michael is ALSO selling things more recognizable as products (videos, other for-pay content?, workshops, and so on) to some subset of that audience. From that point of view, we constitute one or more "markets" and a few of us are "customers".
Product/Market/Customer are all terms relative to your position in the system.
Nonethless, the most obvious position that we occupy is as a "product" to be delivered to advertisers. This isn't an indictment of anyone, it's not even a bad thing. It's just the reality of the situation.
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Tip #9 - shoot what you love or what fascinates you - if you don't care, don't expect anyone else to care.
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I particularly like #6, Don't Neglect Your Neighborhood. I need to define my neighborhood a little more closely. Currently I tend to photograph in the conservation areas, state parks, national forests, and national fish and wildlife refuges that are from 10 to 100 miles from the center of St. Louis. That is what I have considered my neighborhood.
After a few visits early on in my digital bird photography (to practice on the nearly tame Canada geese that infest make the park their home (wiping bottoms of shoes off on nearest pavement), I totally neglected the 900 acre city park that is 2 blocks from where I live. In the last five years, the park employees and volunteers have replanted a patch of prairie, revamped the water features, and are in the process of managing the forested area back to a variety of native tree species. This all attracts more wildlife and gives better backgrounds (with planning to avoid man-made backgrounds). I have rediscovered the park in the process of trying to stay somewhat less flabby (walk - jog trail) in the winter.
Nancy...I worked for a lot of years around the Mississippi, never in St. Louis but in Cape Girardeau and for a couple of decades in the Twin Cities, and I occasionally go to St. Louis on business. It's one of my favorite American cities (and I like Memphis and New Orleans as well.) I think you could spend a lifetime shooting in St. Louis; and find a friend with a boat and go on down the Mississippi a way. Some of the greatest white-sand beaches in America lie along the river south of St. Louis, and the wildlife can be spectacular. (Check Google maps for a quick look at the possibilities.) I once paddled a canoe down the Mississippi from top to bottom, and there really is no better place to be, or shoot, IMHO.
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Why is it necessary to tear down one contributor to compliment another?
If one were to specify the Internet's most salient characteristic -- not just on Lula, but everywhere -- it would be the pissing match.
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Thanks for the article Arup; I agree with amolitor that it has the virtue of providing "actionable items";
My standard is to read it and ask myself "what concrete thing can I actually put in to action here?"
A few of the strategies are ones that I have also discovered to be useful, and I will try some of the others.
On the other topic if this thread: may I suggest that to improve this site by making comments, it is again worth following that standard of making concrete proposals that can be put into action, not just "down votes".
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This was a thoughtful and gorgeously illustrated article sharing one artist's struggle through the process of finding vision and fulfillment. If was a pleasure and privilege to read.
- N.
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John Camp, paddling a canoe or large kayak along the Missouri and Mississippi is on the bucket list. First I have to get good at managing a small kayak in the smaller class I and II rivers locally, the Meramec River being a jewel with gorgeous views within 15 minutes of downtown St. Louis. And I would love to get good at shooting long telephoto from a kayak, because the birds don't mind you as much - lots of chutes and sandbar islands that form extremely rich environments for migrating birds coming along the Mississippi flyway. The sizable (900 acre) city park 5 miles from downtown and two blocks from my flat has had some 230 bird species spotted - apparently the migrants see this nice green spot with water, smack in the middle of a sea of concrete and small-lot houses, and settle in for a day. Central Park in NYC (750 acres) has the same "green island" phenomenon, with over 200 species recorded.
The area around Cape Girardeau has some favorite spots too - on the Illinois side there is the Shawnee National Forest with LaRue-Pine Hills (aka "Snake Road") area, "Little Grand Canyon" slot canyon hike, the southern of the two IL Horseshoe Lake parks, among others, and of course on the MO side, the Mark Twain National Forest and associated state parks, and Mingo swamp Natl Fish and Wildlife reserve.
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These are wonderfully elegant and delicate photographs. Like so much good photography they look deceptively easy but they come from a lot of experience.
Thank you for sharing. I agree totally with all the points you make.
P.S. I'm not as keen on the collage but can see the intent there.
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Thanks to everyone for their kind and encouraging words! Thanks to LuLa and Kevin Raber for publishing my article. Photography is a passion and not a means of livelihood for me, so the countless hours I spend capturing these images and many more to produce an expressive print are rewarded when my art touches people's hearts like it did for many people in this forum. What bigger reward could I ask for?
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I am still struggling with the concept of capturing an emotion not a scene. That's a tough one.
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I am still struggling with the concept of capturing an emotion not a scene. That's a tough one.
The emotion is all in a person's mind. If you capture a scene with two people in a passionate embrace who haven't met in decades then you will/should feel the emotion that the two people exhibited? There are other emotions that can be captured. Photographing Niagra falls from close up with a wide angle lens will mean that you are/should be awe struck therefore the viewer should feel the same unless they are emotionally retarded. :) ;)
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The emotion is all in a person's mind. If you capture a scene with two people in a passionate embrace who haven't met in decades then you will/should feel the emotion that the two people exhibited? There are other emotions that can be captured. Photographing Niagra falls from close up with a wide angle lens will mean that you are/should be awe struck therefore the viewer should feel the same unless they are emotionally retarded. :) ;)
Seeing someone photographing Niagara Falls from close up with wide angle lens would definitely invoke strong emotions from all bystanders. Much safer to photograph that couple.
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I am still struggling with the concept of capturing an emotion not a scene. That's a tough one.
Why?
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Why?
I am getting better at recognizing interesting patterns, tones, colours ... in my landscape photography. But when I look out over a landscape, I don't pick up emotions. To me, nature is mostly unemotional. To me, nature has its own beauty that is separate from human emotions. It is hard to describe, hence my difficulty in understanding capturing an emotion in landscape photography.
I do capture emotions in my dog rescue photography. In that context, the emotions are critical.
I guess it boils down to that in my perception dogs have emotions, rocks don't. ;D
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if not sensing emotion when I photograph a landscape is an issue, then I have it as well. I am attracted to the design and trying to attach a human emotion to that design is foreign to how I approach an image.
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I am getting better at recognizing interesting patterns, tones, colours ... in my landscape photography. But when I look out over a landscape, I don't pick up emotions. To me, nature is mostly unemotional. To me, nature has its own beauty that is separate from human emotions. It is hard to describe, hence my difficulty in understanding capturing an emotion in landscape photography...
Have you checked your pulse lately? ;)
Of course nature is totally unemotional. By the same token, nature does not have its own beauty either. That we find beauty in nature is totally a human construction. The same with emotions; they are ours, not nature's, but something evoked by nature.
Nobody is expecting you to "capture an emotion, not a scene." But we are hoping that you could capture a scene that will evoke an emotion. Though it will be difficult if you do not pick up emotions in you, while looking over a landscape.
If we are only good at "recognizing interesting patterns, tones, and colors," chances are we are bar-code readers, or light meters, not humans ;)
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Part of the trouble with traditional landscape art is that the emotion in play boils down to 'Wow!' which is a bit thin after a while.
You can call it 'sublime' instead which helps a little, but that's a temporary patch.
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Part of the trouble with traditional landscape art is that the emotion in play boils down to 'Wow!' which is a bit thin after a while.
I agree that a wow factor thins after a while, but are you sure that applies to "traditional landscape art" not contemporary landscape photography, exemplified, for instance, in 500px? I have yet to see a "traditional landscape art" with a wow effect. Granted, that could have been a reaction to first impressionistic paintings, but more in the sense of "Wow, how dare they paint like that!." ;)
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Perhaps, in order to understand this, we need to understand and agree on what is and ain't an emotion.
To me, I was not considering appreciating the patterns of a landscape scene to be an emotion. But I can understand how some other people may.
What I was struggling with was looking at a landscape scene and deciding that this scene depicts "hope", "sadness", "optimism", those sort of emotions which I have seen used to describe landscapes.
So perhaps I am approaching the issue inappropriately. It would not be the first time! :-[
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... To me, I was not considering appreciating the patterns of a landscape scene to be an emotion...
I can help you with that. Check the following book, my unlikely photographic bible:
Picture This: How Pictures Work (http://www.amazon.com/Picture-This-How-Pictures-Work/dp/1587170302/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1434474180&sr=8-1&keywords=how+pictures+work)
Everyone knows that a picture tells a thousand words. But what about the elements that make up a picture? Using the tale of Little Red Riding Hood as an example, Molly Bang uses boldly graphic artwork to explain how images—and their individual components—work to tell a story that engages the emotions: Why are diagonals dramatic? Why are curves calming? Why does red feel hot and blue feel cold?
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Well, I think of "traditional landscape art" are Turner and Adams, which is probably a pretty limited viewpoint ;)
Both were pretty much all about the sublime in nature, or something like that, which I am freely interpreting as "wow" or possibly "oooooo!"
Contemporary landscape photography seems to mostly be about ticking off checkboxes to make your picture look like other pictures you've seen. It appears to be to execute the process well, rather than to create something particularly new. In much the same way someone like me enjoys simply grinding out a workmanlike interpretation of a simple Bach piece at the piano, I think. I have no new interpretation, the pleasure is simply in getting the notes right with a fair approximation of the expression as notated.
The astonishing thing to me is that people sell this stuff.
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I can help you with that. Check the following book, my unlikely photographic bible:
Picture This: How Pictures Work (http://www.amazon.com/Picture-This-How-Pictures-Work/dp/1587170302/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1434474180&sr=8-1&keywords=how+pictures+work)
Thanks for the link, for that price getting this book is a no brainer.
I like the Photographer's eye/mind set of books too. But I will add this one to my library.
Thanks.
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Contemporary landscape photography seems to mostly be about…
Not really -- Landmark: The Fields of Landscape Photography (https://books.google.com/books?id=kDdUnwEACAAJ)
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Perhaps, in order to understand this, we need to understand and agree on what is and ain't an emotion.
"emotion (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/british/emotion): a strong feeling such as love or anger, or strong feelings in general"
Probably not those feelings; possibly something as strong as a feeling of fear or a feeling of safety; frequently a feeling of calm, a feeling of wonder or delight, curiosity; perhaps a feeling of spaciousness or constriction; timelessness …
Part of the trouble with traditional landscape art is that the emotion in play boils down to 'Wow!' which is a bit thin after a while.
"wow (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/british/wow?q=wow!): used to show surprise and sometimes pleasure"
Seen one sunset … look forward to the next.
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I think there is perhaps a problem distinguishing between these ideas:
- that a photograph should represent an emotion
- that a photograph should evoke an emotion