Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => Rantatorials [ARCHIVED] => Topic started by: quarkmark on May 27, 2015, 02:27:30 pm

Title: "The waiting game"
Post by: quarkmark on May 27, 2015, 02:27:30 pm
Kevin, I really feel for you. Poor guy, with such a long list of expensive things you're desperately waiting for!
Come on, is this really LuLa? Or maybe I didn't get the satire alert?
Do you really think consumerism is the way to go?
qm
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Telecaster on May 27, 2015, 03:09:24 pm
Hehe...I think the targets of Kevin's rant are simply companies who announce stuff way before they plan to make--or are capable of making--it available. In my experience folks in general are less copacetic with that approach than we used to be. (Materialism culture may deserve a direct rant of its own, but this isn't that.) IMO his point, as I take it, is quite right: cut the strategizing & marketeering BS and start shipping already.  :D

(Just to note: running a site like LuLa provides excellent GAS cover too!)

-Dave-
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: quarkmark on May 27, 2015, 05:52:20 pm
Quotestrategizing & marketeering BS

Seems to me that LuLa is becoming more and more part of this.
The bottom line of the Rantatorial is "Don't tease us. Please let us buy and consume things faster. We want more and we want it immediately!"
This is brainwash.
Step back and see what it is: This piece of writing is exactly what the marketing guys of all these companies dream about!
Customers begging for products to spend their money...
Give me a break!
LuLa is wasting its potential if it goes the way of consumerism.
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Schewe on May 27, 2015, 06:27:08 pm
Quote from: quarkmark on May 27, 2015, 05:52:20 pm
Step back and see what it is: This piece of writing is exactly what the marketing guys of all these companies dream about!


Seems like you didn't get the gist of Kev's rant...in his way, he's actually condemning the practice and encouraging the readers to chill out and wait. Least, that's what I got out of it (course, I know Kev pretty well).

And truth be told, I'm pretty bad about waiting myself. When Kev was in the studio shooting out LR vid he showed me his watch (that came early) and darn if it wasn't the exact same stainless steel watch and band I had ordered. I was immediately jealous because mine won't come till mid to late June. But then my zen approach came back and I told myself I'll get it when I get it so I let go of that jealousy...so I'm waiting patiently with a small smile on my face :~)

BTW, you don't seem to have been much of a poster here in the LuLa forums...you might want to try to fit in a while and be a member of the community before casting aspersions here...just sayin'

Edited to fix typos
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: NancyP on May 27, 2015, 07:21:19 pm
Good parting shot about the Lr6!
The waiting I hate is the outside-in-bad-weather (especially cold) waiting.
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Kevin Raber on May 27, 2015, 08:57:42 pm
QuarkMark...Consumerism??? I think you missed the point.  i listed many items that have been announced and not yet delivered.  More items these days than ever before with some far out delivery dates.  Wouldn't it be nice to see an announcement that that says shipping now?   I also think you should read Jeff's post.  He get's it.  And, remember this is a Rantatorial where we can speak our minds and express our thoughts. 

Kevin Raber
Title: I'd rather get information about forthcoming products a few months in advance
Post by: BJL on May 27, 2015, 10:00:17 pm
Quote from: Kevin Raber on May 27, 2015, 08:57:42 pm
i listed many items that have been announced and not yet delivered.  More items these days than ever before with some far out delivery dates.  Wouldn't it be nice to see an announcement that that says shipping now?

To your last question (with my emphasis added) an emphatic no.  Companies clearly know all significant details of forthcoming products some months before they are ready to deliver, so a policy of announcing with immediate availability is not a matter of delivering earlier (they already have plenty of incentive to deliver ASAP in most cases); it is just announcing later: withholding information that the company has had for some months until the last minute, probably to protect sales and prices of existing stock.

This is not to defend the opposite extreme of announcing a product that is still far from fully developed: "vaporware" in the term coined to describe a super-computer announced but never successfully delivered by IBM.
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Manoli on May 28, 2015, 02:14:27 am
Quote from: Kevin Raber on May 27, 2015, 08:57:42 pm
More items these days than ever before with some far out delivery dates.  Wouldn't it be nice to see an announcement that that says shipping now?   


Yup.
But I also believe that the latest trend in pre-announcements falls foul of the Trade Descriptions Act ( or national equivalents). They should more accurately be announced as 'Works In Progress'. The latest Leica S being a shining example - over 12 months(*) and still waiting.

\
(*) the actual announcement was Photokina 2014, but the worst kept secret in the industry can be traced back to Feb 2014, if not earlier - thanks to various trade-in offers, inducements and timely leaks.


Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on May 28, 2015, 06:58:30 am
)) Looks familiar!

from left to right, let me guess:

writer, suit, art director, creative director?
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: ripgriffith on May 28, 2015, 12:50:11 pm
Quote from: Schewe on May 27, 2015, 06:27:08 pm
BTW, you don't seem to have been much of a poster here in the LuLa forums...you might want to try to fit in a while and be a member of the community before casting aspersions here...just sayin'


Words to live by.
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: quarkmark on May 28, 2015, 01:30:33 pm
Aspersions  ::)
Paraphrasing Kevin: Remember this is a Rantatorial Forum where we can speak our minds and express our thoughts.
... but only after we "fit in a while"?!?

Consumerism: "the preoccupation of society with the acquisition of consumer goods"
I always think there has to be more than this.
But that's just me.
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on May 28, 2015, 05:42:54 pm
 ;D fun!
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Telecaster on May 28, 2015, 06:18:49 pm
Quote from: quarkmark on May 28, 2015, 01:30:33 pm
Consumerism: "the preoccupation of society with the acquisition of consumer goods"
I always think there has to be more than this.
But that's just me.


It seems to me your objection is that Kevin observes aspects of (and behaviors resulting from) consumer culture without explicitly criticizing or condemning this culture. But I don't think condemnation was his intent--his rant is ironically more subtle in this respect--and thus your objection is IMO off-target. Beware of binary thinking...lack of explicit rejection of something does not equal support of it.

(Great pics, BC!  :D  And I agree that all this great tech we have hasn't made us any more visually creative. Slicker perhaps...or, to borrow from Adams, we now have sharper renditions of the same mostly fuzzy concepts. The future subject of a Rantatorial maybe...)

-Dave-
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: bdbender4 on May 28, 2015, 07:56:35 pm
Geez, I wish I could afford to be waiting for all that stuff!  And all tax-deductible as a business expense, too.

Wait a second, aren't there any new lenses to go with that Leica body?  Or did I miss them?

;)
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: quarkmark on May 29, 2015, 05:46:19 am
QuoteIt seems to me your objection is that Kevin observes aspects of (and behaviors resulting from) consumer culture without explicitly criticizing or condemning this culture.

I agree.
QuoteBut I don't think condemnation was his intent--his rant is ironically more subtle in this respect--and thus your objection is IMO off-target.

That's why I say that this is a waste of LuLa's potential. It could have been much more, but if it's only consumerism complaining about waiting times, it falls short.
And don't forget (this is also a reminder for myself!) that Kevin is part of the industry and earns money from selling ads etc. through this website. Nothing wrong with that, just to remind us that he's not unbiased. Listing items with pictures and waiting times is a subtle way of advertising nowadays. Some companies pay bloggers to do just that.
My fault was that I expected to read something that goes deeper, because LuLa has the position to do different things than other consumer websites and bloggers.
But if it's only me, ok, no problem, forget about it.
Cheers
Mark
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Kevin Raber on May 29, 2015, 06:43:51 am
Mark
It's only you. That's OK though.
Kevin
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: quarkmark on May 29, 2015, 09:12:26 am
Another obvious problem with this rantatorial is this:
LuLa generates a lot of traffic (and earns money from selling ads to be seen by this traffic) by reviewing products they get from companies a long time before other customers. Even reports about announcements and expectations of announcements satisfy your need for gear talk that generates traffic. Now imagine the companies would do what Kevin suggests:
QuoteWouldn't it be cool if someone would make a product announcement and say 'available to order and ship today'?
Really? C'mon, this is all part of the industry you're making your money from! Every blogger writes things like that to generate "likes".

Make no mistake: I say all this, not because I hate LuLa, but because I like it a lot. It's been on my daily reading list for years. I think Michael and his team have done a great job all this time! I really think that while being part of the online photography business LuLa has still managed to avoid getting too much money-oriented in its writings. (A lot of other sites in the www went down this way in my opinion.) And LuLa was (is?) always better than the others and just different.
But I've noticed some things that I don't think serve LuLa well.
Just to name one more besides this rantatorial: There was the teaser about "the next best thing" we never heard again from.

But I think I'm going to stop here. It's your right to write what you like, it's my right to criticize, it's your right to disagree and move on.
Kevin's last comment says it all.
Mark
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: dchew on May 29, 2015, 10:58:29 am
"What are you waiting for?"

LLVJ
  ;)

Dave
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: NancyP on May 29, 2015, 08:09:27 pm
I can't complain. There's one funny picture and some funny captions on this thread. Lighten up, it is FRIDAY.  :D
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: pluton on June 01, 2015, 05:29:44 pm
Let he who has never, ever purchased equipment sight-unseen throw the first stone!
I think it would be wise to remember that part of Kevin's job is to obtain, use, and write about newly released equipment.  Even the Apple watch will have photographic uses.
If you are not in the mood to think about dumping dough on new equipment, stop reading.
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Schewe on June 01, 2015, 06:04:28 pm
Quote from: pluton on June 01, 2015, 05:29:44 pm
Even the Apple watch will have photographic uses.


Well, my "waiting game" for my Apple Watch is over. Mine came today...already synced some images from my iPhone and learned how to use the watch as a remote release for the camera on the iPhone. Another potential use is to find the exact sunrise and sunset times...but so far, no real photo related apps that I've found :~(

Now, the only think I'm waiting for is Father's Day when I get to eat a good steak (I'm primarily plant-based now).

:~)
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Rick Popham on June 01, 2015, 06:17:24 pm
Quote from: Schewe on June 01, 2015, 06:04:28 pm

Now, the only think I'm waiting for is Father's Day when I get to eat a good steak (I'm primarily plant-based now).

:~)


If you have to wait it's all the more special.  I've cut way back on meat myself, so when I have a steak I get something REALLY good.
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: BJL on June 01, 2015, 06:56:32 pm
Quote from: Schewe on June 01, 2015, 06:04:28 pm
Well, my "waiting game" for my Apple Watch is over. . . . but so far, no real photo related apps that I've found

Where's Photoshop for Apple Watch? Get working on it, I'm tired of waiting for it.
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: jjj on June 01, 2015, 07:27:06 pm
Quote from: Schewe on June 01, 2015, 06:04:28 pmNow, the only think I'm waiting for is Father's Day when I get to eat a good steak (I'm primarily plant-based now).
That made me think that maybe you are Groot's brother.....

(http://plasticandplush.com/images/2014/07/20/Hot-Toys-Guardians-of-the-Galaxy-Groot-4.jpg)
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: ErikKaffehr on June 02, 2015, 04:58:03 pm
Hi,

My personal take is that it is nice to have a road map, it allows for planning.

For instance, I am interested in the Sony Alpha FE mount system, and the Batis 85/1.8 seems one of the most interesting lenses. But I won't buy a Sony E-mount camera until I see a roadmap for the camera bodies.

So, for me waiting is quite OK. Having no information on medium term plans is just frustration.

Best regards
Erik




Quote from: quarkmark on May 27, 2015, 02:27:30 pm
Kevin, I really feel for you. Poor guy, with such a long list of expensive things you're desperately waiting for!
Come on, is this really LuLa? Or maybe I didn't get the satire alert?
Do you really think consumerism is the way to go?
qm

Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: jjj on June 02, 2015, 05:24:24 pm
Quote from: ErikKaffehr on June 02, 2015, 04:58:03 pmMy personal take is that it is nice to have a road map, it allows for planning.

For instance, I am interested in the Sony Alpha FE mount system, and the Batis 85/1.8 seems one of the most interesting lenses. But I won't buy a Sony E-mount camera until I see a roadmap for the camera bodies.

So, for me waiting is quite OK. Having no information on medium term plans is just frustration.
The Olympus lens roadmap I have found very useful. Because by knowing that a fast wideangle zoom was on the cards meant that the system could a viable purchase for me and so would be worth considering. Whereas without that, I'd simply say nope to buying into  system as the lens I'd probably use most is missing.
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: wildstork on June 03, 2015, 12:50:50 am
Quote from: Kevin Raber on May 27, 2015, 08:57:42 pm
QuarkMark...Consumerism??? I think you missed the point.  i listed many items that have been announced and not yet delivered.     I also think you should read Jeff's post.  He get's it.  And, remember this is a Rantatorial where we can speak our minds and express our thoughts.  ... unless you make the mistake of inadvertently insulting the thin skinned who respond to your post with: "BTW, you don't seem to have been much of a poster here in the LuLa forums...you might want to try to fit in a while and be a member of the community before casting aspersions here...just saying'"

So now you have no right to post an opinion unless you have a long history of posting.
 
Just saying'

Lawrence


Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Schewe on June 03, 2015, 12:55:01 am
Hum, ya might want to get familiar with how to quote when you post on LuLa...You quoted Kevin about something I actually posted. Get's kinda confusing ya know? Just sayin' :~)
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Schewe on June 03, 2015, 12:56:53 am
Quote from: jjj on June 01, 2015, 07:27:06 pm
That made me think that maybe you are Groot's brother.....


Nope...but I have been accused of being Haggard...

:~)
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: wildstork on June 03, 2015, 01:35:34 am
"BTW, you don't seem to have been much of a poster here in the LuLa forums...you might want to try to fit in a while and be a member of the community before casting aspersions here...just sayin'"

So now you have no right to post an opinion unless you have a long history of posting.
 
Just sayin'

How does "fitting in" figure into a Rantatorial?  I thought Rantatorials were about expressing one's opinion?  Or is conformity a prerequisite... and absent adherence to the "norms" of your mindset one's opinion is invalid.
 
Just sayin'

Lawrence
(Apologies to Kevin. Did I get it right this time Jeff?).
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Schewe on June 03, 2015, 02:18:58 am
Quote from: wildstork on June 03, 2015, 01:35:34 am
(Apologies to Kevin. Did I get it right this time Jeff?).


Better, but you don't seem to grok the gist of what I was saying...learn how to behave (and post) here on LuLa before embarrassing yourself by not grokking the way to express yourself. (If you don't know what Grok means, Google it-it's a test :~).
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: jjj on June 03, 2015, 10:14:56 am
It's a shame the work 'grok' isn't more commonly known. It's so very useful.
Though usually smart people grok what you mean when it is used. ;)
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Rand47 on June 06, 2015, 07:50:17 pm
Quote from: jjj on June 03, 2015, 10:14:56 am
It's a shame the work 'grok' isn't more commonly known. It's so very useful.
Though usually smart people grok what you mean when it is used. ;)


This thread is a hoot and 2/3rds.   ;D
Isn't grok what sailors drink?  LOLOLOLOL

Rand
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: jjj on June 07, 2015, 11:44:07 am
Quote from: Rand47 on June 06, 2015, 07:50:17 pm
Isn't grok what sailors drink?  LOLOLOLOL
I think you may be thinking of 'grog', which isn't sailor specific.  ;D
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: telyt on June 07, 2015, 12:40:39 pm
Quote from: ErikKaffehr on June 02, 2015, 04:58:03 pm
My personal take is that it is nice to have a road map, it allows for planning.


Takes quite a leap of faith to buy into a system based of the promise of important tools not yet available.
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on June 07, 2015, 01:07:46 pm
Quote from: wildstork on June 03, 2015, 01:35:34 am
... So now you have no right to post an opinion unless you have a long history of posting... Or is conformity a prerequisite... and absent adherence to the "norms" of your mindset one's opinion is invalid.


That's a straw man. Nobody ever said you have no right to post an opinion, including negative ones, or that conformity is a prerequisite. Except one is not going to gain much creditability and respect by being so aggressively negative in one's first post. Even if valid, one's opinion might get obscured by an unnecessarily aggressive delivery. It's not just norms of this forum, it is norms of human communication. You start with hostility, you can expect it in return.
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Dan Vincent on June 07, 2015, 11:55:20 pm
In the words of the great Thomas Petty, the waiting is indeed the hardest part.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMyCa35_mOg

I've been waiting for the Sigma 24-105 for A-mount since they announced the lenses together in, I want to say, October-ish 2013. I saw a non-functioning Canon model of the lens at Photoplus 2013. Exactly a year later, I saw a functioning Canon model at Photoplus 2014 but no Nikon model and the Sony model was even up in the air. Sony has a gigantic hole in the A-mount lineup in that there is no serviceable modern 24-105-ish range lens with ultrasonic motor despite the loud demand for such a lens. Sigma would have made bank if they had managed to ship it on time, but they're only getting around to shipping it at the end of this June. That lens was vapor for 20 months. I was ready to buy it as soon as they would ship it.

Now, Sony is supposedly releasing a 24-105G this fall, and if they do, Sigma isn't getting my money, even if their 24-105 will be cheaper by $400 or so. I'm getting by with older Minolta lenses for the time being on a99, but Tamron is able to ship their Sony mount versions at about the same time as the other mounts, if not a month later.

It would not be the first time Sigma has jerked us around, they specifically announced A-mount versions of the newer 120-300 f/2.8 and then nine months later just up and said "nah, we're not doing it anymore." The guy at the Sigma booth at PPE2014 said "Well, if you preorder" and I'm like "No, I'm not preordering without some kind of target date."

To Sony's credit, with the exception of the 500 f/4, when Sony has announced products with actual ship dates, they generally adhere to those dates. I ordered the RX100 mk1 sight unseen; it shipped exactly a month after it was announced and it has been worth every cent.
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Otto Phocus on June 08, 2015, 10:11:18 am
It would be nice it life were like the Roadrunner cartoons.  Where the coyote puts the letter addressed to Acme in the mail box and immediately the item is delivered.  LoL.

In the DC area, Amazon is offering same day delivery.  Yikes!  That's quite the improvement from the "6-8 weeks" when I was a kid. 

But no matter how fast something is delivered, it will never be fast enough when you are waiting for that special item.  :'(
Title: Re: "The waiting game"
Post by: Jeff Griffin on June 08, 2015, 12:35:39 pm
Well, for a while I kept a look out and waited for Adobe's update for Lightroom to version 6.

Then Sony / Phase One done a deal for a special version of Capture One ( for Sony )

And quite a good deal it was  :)

So for less than £24 I have a fully functional ( albeit only for Sony Cameras ) Capture One Pro 8 which is less than the upgrade price from LR5 to LR6