Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: kevs on May 25, 2015, 12:22:21 pm
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I just shot a girl with an orange dress. It looked yellow on the lcd. I thought well, lcds are notoriously untrustworthy for color.
But the calibrated monitor was also Yellow.
The settings were faithful, Adobe RGB, which has served fine for years.
This was just a model shoot, but if it was a bigger client I could be in trouble. Does the camera have a problem with orange?
Other colors, blue etc are fine.
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Which software and color space you used in order to see it on the computer? The camera definitely does not have a problem with orange or any other color. Relying on Faithful is unreliable in itself, as it is just one of many possible renderings. Try other renderings in post, like Neutral, Adobe Standard or Camera Standard.
Btw, were you shooting raw or jpeg?
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If you are using LR/ACR then they did have issues with canon and orange/reds looking a bit yellow with Adobe Standard. But that was fixed a long time ago by adding Camera profiles.
So if that's the software that you are using, apply the camera profiles in the calibration tab instead of the Adobe one and see if that helps.
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Check the histogarm in RGB - my guess is that the red channel is blown so there is too little red information to make it the full orange. Sensors are most sensitive to red light and I first came across this when I could not work out why photos of red poppies in bright sunlight were turning out irrecoverably yellow and underexposing the image solved it.
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Flower colours can be very intense. Designed to be viewed by insects and the like not us.
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Check the histogarm in RGB - my guess is that the red channel is blown so there is too little red information to make it the full orange. Sensors are most sensitive to red light and I first came across this when I could not work out why photos of red poppies in bright sunlight were turning out irrecoverably yellow and underexposing the image solved it.
This might be it. I used to shoot sunrise/sunsets sometimes with a cyan filter on older cameras to retard the red channel and fix in post. Haven't done that recently with much larger DR and colordepth of the newer Nikons I shoot, though post correcting is sometimes still necessary to pull the red down.
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Probably is a metamerism problem:
the sensor doesn't have the same spectral sensitivity of the eye. for you the fabric is orange, for the camera is yellow.
Cameras are far form a spectrophotometer.
All cameras suffer of this problem.
I skipped both 5d2 and 5d3 for this reason: the skin tone (with the correct white balance) in warm light was not better than 5d1.
I found this problem with dp3m shooting orange flowers. The only viable solution that I found is a selective color correction.
my 2 cents
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Thanks guys, sorry for delay, email notification does not seem to be working on this thread for me.
I shot in Large jpeg. If was a big job I would shoot Raw, but I like jpeg for small gigs.
I opened it up in camera raw and pulled sliders, but nothing help at all, the dress never even approached orange.
When you say look at histogram you are talking about after the shoot correct? I have not even looked at a histogram for a long time, so I'm rusty there. Again, I have never seen a color so bad in LCD that remained so bad later.
Unless someone has a great idea, I'm leaning with pdp11. I've heard that word metamerism before but have not really studied what it means.
How can this be happening at this stage of the game, Mark 2, baffling.
Anyway, again, any ideas how to solve this is post?
For this shoot it does not matter at all. The model is a beginner and does not mind the yellow. I don't mind the yellow. I'm not a fan of orange. But what if this was a big clothing company/ client??
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Anyway, again, any ideas how to solve this is post?
If the red channel is blown, you can't because the red data is lost. The histogram will have a luminance curve (which shows the accumulated brightness of the scene on the sensor) and you should also hav the option of showing 'RGB Histogram' which shows the brightness of the red, blue and green channels. In the example I mentioned above of the red poppy the luminance curve looked fine but the red channel was heavily bunched up to the right side which indicated what the problem was.
To be perfectly honest, I would not even begin to think about working for a paying client until you understand histograms and how to read them - yes, you can probably get by without it from a processing point of view but being able to read them can go a long way to 'fault' diagnosis especially during a job if you can show the RGB histogram on the camera LCD (this being an excellent example because if the histogram is OK you will deduce metamerism as a potential cause).
Can you get the model back in and shoot it again to check different factors?
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Open in Capture One (better color engine) and add highlight recovery.
It will reconstruct the red channel using the other two. As long as you didn't far overbake it you'll be fine. If needed use the Color Editor to tweak.
Or just post the raw file here and someone will do it for you.
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... But what if this was a big clothing company/ client??
You would have shot in raw. Or you'd test first how different renderings (Faithful, Neutral, etc.) suit the subject.
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O, disregard my post. I missed that the OP was not shooting in raw.
Not much can be done when you shoot JPG and clip something.
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I shot in Large jpeg. If was a big job I would shoot Raw, but I like jpeg for small gigs.
Job size is irrelevant, Shooting raw is simply much easier as you have now found out, unless you need shots instantly for say press work.
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Thanks guys, anyone know why email notification does not work?
Slobodan, you seem to have the best answer with the best solution. So you are confident that between shooting Raw, and testing different color modes, the 5D 2 would have rendered orange ok?
You don't agree with the previous gentleman who stated that 5D2/ 5D3 has issues?
Don't have the dress or model to test unfortunately, but just tested, jpeg, same light on a orange (fruit), and color is fine, wonder if something about the orange dress...?
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... Slobodan, you seem to have the best answer with the best solution. So you are confident that between shooting Raw, and testing different color modes, the 5D 2 would have rendered orange ok?
You don't agree with the previous gentleman who stated that 5D2/ 5D3 has issues?...
Perhaps they did have issues, I do not remember anything specific, but even jjj is saying that was fixed a long time ago.
I do not have 5d2/5d3, but I do have Canons 20d, 40d, 60d and 6d (which is very close to 5d3). I do exclusively shoot raw, and I never had any issues with color, so, yes, I am pretty confident that shooting raw would render orange ok.
Here is a shot I took recently with a 6d, that contains reds and oranges. It is an out-of-camera raw file, Faithful profile applied in Lightroom, and exported as jpeg with sRGB profile. I applied Faithful not because I use it often, but to match what you were using. I tend to circle between various profiles to find the one that best suites the subject, but generally find that Adobe Standard works the best most of the time.
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You don't agree with the previous gentleman who stated that 5D2/ 5D3 has issues?
Lightroom/ACR did have had issues with orange/red in the past with raw shots from Canon cameras. But if you use the camera profiles in calibration tab as opposed to the Adobe profile, you'll find a big imprevement in orange/red rendering. See shots below, the reds that were present in reality turned to orange in AC/LR with Adobe profiles.
However, this will have nothing to do with your problem if the issue was on back of screen and it was a jpeg. :-\
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I have finally managed to get my hands on my poppy photos to show you what the histogram looks like
This first shot is the original: ISO 200 f11 1/15 sec - this was as metered by the camera and the luminance histogram was fine but you will see from the screenshot thatthe red channel is bunched up to the right
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7779/18202409972_b42b2c1871_z.jpg)
This is the same photo but with the 'Exposure slider in Lightroom knocked back bt 4 stops - the more extreme overexposure are still strongly yellow. The histogram now looks OK regards the red but only because it has underexposed the reds that it has captured. The amount of reds it has lost cannot, of course, be magically be brought back in so the poppy is still not its correct colour
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7754/18179563616_bafe1a8d7f_z.jpg)
This last image is the same flower at about the same time - this time the settings are ISO 200 f11 1/90 (close on 3 stops less exposure than the first one). The colour is now correct and the red curve is well within the histogram so all red informaton is there to give the poppy its true colour (to be honest it could even have done with a tad lower exposure still).
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7781/18018319410_d2d2466caa_z.jpg)
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I suspect that, even on the last image, you have overexposed the red channel and lost detail. You cannot use the LR histogram as that is after recovery. You need to look at with a raw histogram, such as RawDigger.
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I agree the red in the final one still looks a bit too 'full' - the historgram is the raw file straight fom camera with no recovery applied (and even if you allow for the fact taht LR applies at least some processing even when set to nil, I think it still illustrates my point about blowing the reds will affect the final colour.
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Thanks guys.
Well like I said I shot an orange (fruit), jpeg yesterday and it was fine. Could it be an orange dress, it was kind of shear, silky could have been a flukey thing that made color go haywire to yellow?
Again, I'm checking notify me of replies and do not get email notification as in the past. Moderator here?
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Again, I'm checking notify me of replies and do not get email notification as in the past. Moderator here?
Have you tried clicking 'notify' button at bottom right?
I avoid email notifications, I simply look at 'show new replies to your posts' at top right whenever I have time to look at LuLa forums.
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The problem could be either a blown out channel or metamerism. If you could post an image we may be able to help you better.
To solve in post: Have you tried changing the hue and saturation of the yellows in the hsl panel in ACR? If you have Photoshop you may be able to do a selection based on color range and then change the hue / saturation
Shooting in RAW will definetly be a preferable option but it will not solve metamerism because it is a structural issue. Even if you shot RAW, you may have problems in straight conversions to AdobeRGB or sRGB, because the red primary (which is the same for both color spaces, is not very saturated), so any saturated red, yellow and orange will require some tweaking of hue / saturation in post.
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Thanks guys.
Well like I said I shot an orange (fruit), jpeg yesterday and it was fine. Could it be an orange dress, it was kind of shear, silky could have been a flukey thing that made color go haywire to yellow?
There could be different reasons - is the lighting the same? Exposure settings?
Was light coming through the dress (transmissive colour) as much as from the surface (reflective, as with the orange).
'Being orange' is not always the same. What are the different wavelengths making up that 'orange'? The brain is pretty good at cutting out 'unnecessary' information and simplifying the image (this is where the artist Turner experimented with representation of light)
As I say the only thing you can do is do the actual shoot again and try different things.