Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Jglaser757 on January 15, 2015, 02:13:43 pm
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I would love some tips for Varnishing Large prints. I have started to do this and have run into a few problems. I set up a small painting booth in my garage that is sealed on three sides and top. I have a light that that I use to show reflection when wet. I am using a HVLP sprayer that I have set to medium spray. Also, I transfer large prints to peg board and carry peg board to paint booth. But even that is a little difficult white trying to avoid creasing the paper.
My problems:
1)Being of small stature, I have inadvertently creased prints while trying to handle them.
2)Laying down excessive varnish creating a drip. I am spraying at about a 70 degree angle. I saw plenty of you tube video's showing this.
3)I keep getting small pieces of dust or micro fibers on the prints while drying so i take a tweezer to remove them
4)Splatter from sprayer shooting large drop on to print that was almost done
5)
I realize their is a learning curve and I thought I got thru it by doing about fifteen or so smaller prints(17x25). I was pretty comfortable with them, but I never imagined
the difference is size would create such a problem for me.
I would appreciate any helpful tips,
My framer does not do any varnishing, only laminating.
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You can probably solve most of your problems my using several coats that are much thinner than you are applying now.
After each thin coat it is very easy to remove any dust that has attached to the surface ON THE MOST RECENT COAT. You can usually just wipe the dust away with your fingers, when the paint is dry to the touch. However, if a piece of dust is under more than one coat, it is much harder to remove. So be very sure to remove dust after each coat.
If you see a new piece of dust on a wet print, it usually better to wait until the coat is dry before trying to remove it, since it is very easy to damage a wet print. The exception is if you are applying the last coat, in which case it is better to remove the dust right away to allow the paint to fill in around the impression.
If paint is dripping on to your print from the carrier board, attach the print flush with the top of the carrier board. That way no paint can accumulate above the print. In that case lean the board up against some other backing so you don't launch excessive overspray into the air.
Thinner coats will probably reduce splatter. However, it sounds like you need a better HVLP gun.
I use a metronome clipped to my shirt to help me apply exactly the same amount of paint on each swipe across the prints. I also weigh the gun before and after each coat, using a cheap scale I bought on ebay. Those things help me be consistent, and if there's a problem I have a way to understand what it might be. When I spray a full 51 x 100 inch panel of prints, I put down about 180 grams of spray on each of three coats when coating Museo Silver Rag, or a little more when spraying matte media and canvas. The correct amount varies with the media. I use 6 clicks of the metronome (84 clicks per seconds) to go across the 51 inch dimension, then move the gun 4 inches to the side for the next swipe. Your mileage will almost certainly vary depending on you spray gun and climate. My gun is adjusted to deliver 200 grams of water per minute into an empty bottle, I weigh in on my handy little scale.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ENO-EM-11-Clip-on-Tuner-Metronome-2-in-1-for-Guitar-Bass-Violin-Ukulele-Clip-/190707170915?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2c67087e63
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-LCD-Compact-Kitchen-Food-POStal-Digital-Scale-Up-To-7-Kg-7000-G-/351286894268?pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item51ca549ebc
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Perhaps running a HEPA air filter for a while (hour+) before spraying and then lowering it during the spray, even if just to keep things 'moving'?
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Perhaps running a HEPA air filter for a while (hour+) before spraying and then lowering it during the spray, even if just to keep things 'moving'?
Well, I once experimented with taping a gas furnace filter over a cheap 20" square room. It was better than nothing at removing the overspray from an enclosed space, but nothing beats a vent to the outside. I can envision buying some cheap, plastic ducting from Home Depot and cobbling up a duct-tape and cardboard manifold around a fan to exhaust overspray out from under a garage door, or something.
Most of the dust that flies around in a spray booth is kicked up by the blast from the spray itself. Cleanliness pays off, sort of. What also pays off is once in a while spraying down the whole booth with expired coating to lock down at least the current crop of dust, so go ahead and take away my Mr. Neat card!
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I would love some tips for Varnishing Large prints.
Don't!
My framer does not do any varnishing, only laminating.
There's your answer. Easy, perfect, consistent results and probably more inexpensive all things considered. - Jim
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Don't!
There's your answer. Easy, perfect, consistent results and probably more inexpensive all things considered. - Jim
Well, I didnt know what I didnt know. I have spent $$$$ on this journey of varnishing because I refuse to put my images behind glass!!!(stupid, stupid , stoopid)
I was going to use the method, but my local framer was not doing this method. He said it wasnt worth the time and effort. I asked him today if he could show me what it looks like..So, saturday he will have one of my prints laminated..We will see!
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Be sure to ask for anti-bumpy, anti-reflective, anti-masking, heat-resistant laminate. ;)
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Jon, I hate glass. There, I said it. It's heavy, fragile, dangerous if it falls or breaks, expensive, difficult to work with (try shaving off a sixteenth of an inch) and (this is the BIG one) it has glare! Glare sucks, plain and simple. If you are not happy with what your framer does for you by way of laminating please allow me the opportunity of producing one of your images using my process. All too often people will attach a stigma of "all things laminated look like menus and placemats." This is not always true.
Keep us updated. - Jim
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I have to agree with what Bill T. has suggested, and it sound like you may need a better HVLP gun, or fine tune your settings. I regularly spray 54" canvases and get excellent results. I usually spray the first coat very fine and fast, then three coats a bit heavier, but not enough to drip. 1' per second is about right for my settings. I'm using the Fujispray MiniMite 3 system. Couldn't be happier.
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Jon, I hate glass. There, I said it. It's heavy, fragile, dangerous if it falls or breaks, expensive, difficult to work with (try shaving off a sixteenth of an inch) and (this is the BIG one) it has glare! Glare sucks, plain and simple. If you are not happy with what your framer does for you by way of laminating please allow me show the opportunity of producing one of your images using my process. All too often people will attach a stigma of "all things laminated look like menus and placemats." This is not always true.
Keep us updated. - Jim
Thanks Jim, only issue is you're in Maine and I'm in Florida. I would have to send you my prints.
Laminating always reminded me of placemats I made in elementary school and that's the only thing I can visualize at thi point. I will. Keep you posted!
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Laminating kills the dmax in your prints. It makes them look dead. The high gloss varnish looks plastic.
I have found that varnishing large prints other than canvas is not only a major pain but also significantly effects the surface and tonal range. I've never been able to make any of the canvas varnishes work for me on paper. The Breathing Color is supposed to work on paper but it looks horrible to me, bumpy and plasticy. You can use the Hahnemuhle UV spray but that doesn't really protect very well for an exhibition, but maybe that doesn't matter in some cases.
Plexi is the thing to use, not glass. Any affordable glass I've seen has a green cast and kills your warm colors.
You know you don't hear anyone talking about using L pins over plexi anymore. When I worked at the Center For Creative Photography in the late 70s early 80s that is the only way they hung exhibitions. The prints were not dry mounted but were matted between 4 ply rag board with photo corners ( but they could just be mounted ) and four tiny little L Pins held the plexi in front of the print. We hung big shows of Ansel Adams, Eugene Smith, Frederick Sommer, Paul Caponigro, and dozens of great American photographers that way. We also had a large gallery in the UA photo department and we hung shows that same way, many of the prints were 30x40 color prints I remember. I never saw one fall off the wall.
I bought some of these L pins recently and I'm going to start using them myself. I haven't personally tried to hang a print with plexi larger than 20x24 but as long as you aren't mounting on something heavy like aluminum I don't see why 30x40s or even 40x60s couldn't work that way too. You might need 6 pins at the most instead of one on each corner but that is not a big deal. These things are almost invisible after they go into the wall. For moderate and smaller sized things you could probably just use a sheet of foamor, then the print, then the plexi and they could look very clean and nice. Then you wouldn't even pay for mounting, framing, or varnishing. I've found people are usually paying more to have their work framed than I charge them to produce it. I always liked this presentation for photography much better than even nice frames. It's very clean. This used to be a standard way to show highend photo work in big galleries and museums all over the us. Somehow things reverted back to frames. I hear gallery owners now say, "people won't buy work unless it is framed" and that just sounds so bizarre to me. You could have one on the premises that framed to show the collector if they have no imagination.
Not all galleries might want you to put 4 small holes in the wall for each print, but most of the ones I know fill their holes after each show and they would be easy to fix. We did it for every show, once a month. The holes are tiny, not much bigger than a push pin hole.
john
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You can probably solve most of your problems my using several coats that are much thinner than you are applying now.
After each thin coat it is very easy to remove any dust that has attached to the surface ON THE MOST RECENT COAT. You can usually just wipe the dust away with your fingers, when the paint is dry to the touch. However, if a piece of dust is under more than one coat, it is much harder to remove. So be very sure to remove dust after each coat.
If you see a new piece of dust on a wet print, it usually better to wait until the coat is dry before trying to remove it, since it is very easy to damage a wet print. The exception is if you are applying the last coat, in which case it is better to remove the dust right away to allow the paint to fill in around the impression.
If paint is dripping on to your print from the carrier board, attach the print flush with the top of the carrier board. That way no paint can accumulate above the print. In that case lean the board up against some other backing so you don't launch excessive overspray into the air.
Thinner coats will probably reduce splatter. However, it sounds like you need a better HVLP gun.
I use a metronome clipped to my shirt to help me apply exactly the same amount of paint on each swipe across the prints. I also weigh the gun before and after each coat, using a cheap scale I bought on ebay. Those things help me be consistent, and if there's a problem I have a way to understand what it might be. When I spray a full 51 x 100 inch panel of prints, I put down about 180 grams of spray on each of three coats when coating Museo Silver Rag, or a little more when spraying matte media and canvas. The correct amount varies with the media. I use 6 clicks of the metronome (84 clicks per seconds) to go across the 51 inch dimension, then move the gun 4 inches to the side for the next swipe. Your mileage will almost certainly vary depending on you spray gun and climate. My gun is adjusted to deliver 200 grams of water per minute into an empty bottle, I weigh in on my handy little scale.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ENO-EM-11-Clip-on-Tuner-Metronome-2-in-1-for-Guitar-Bass-Violin-Ukulele-Clip-/190707170915?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2c67087e63
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-LCD-Compact-Kitchen-Food-POStal-Digital-Scale-Up-To-7-Kg-7000-G-/351286894268?pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=item51ca549ebc
I never thought that you could remove a fiber, dust or dog hair once the print dried..I was doing it while wet and creating more smudges etc..
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I hear gallery owners now say, "people won't buy work unless it is framed" and that just sounds so bizarre to me.
LOL
Thats just BS to sell you a marked up work with framing from the gallery. Even to exhibit some will force it.
Sad...don't work with that scam of a place! They are more interested in the back end of the business with the front of a art gallery! Just go into framing then!
But no, this is their hook line!
You would have more buyers if they can have a piece they can frame to fit their placement. Often buyers will think about placement later and not use the galley for framing.
This above is really SOME of the time true, as there are pieces that need a frame...but then I think, those are the images you want to avoid. :-)
Well, some look nice in a frame?....well, yes...*they certainly can. Depends on the buyer really.
Iim with you John...Though I can't comment much about coatings, yet.
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You know you don't hear anyone talking about using L pins over plexi anymore. When I worked at the Center For Creative Photography in the late 70s early 80s that is the only way they hung exhibitions.
Here's a good recent example of L pins at the CFCP. Very handsome looking presentation, IMHO. Of course, one needs the right kind of walls for that, it's a non-starter for instance in the plastered walls + French hangers gallery paradigm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RzhsVkVHo0
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In regards to the "won't buy work unless it's framed" thing, it has been my experience that framing makes it a lot easier to sell pieces. It offers the artist a competitive advantage and a way to bias gallery owners in their favor.
What I see now at least in Santa Fe galleries is that pieces with glass or plex are very much in disfavor because of reflection issues in the generally smallish galleries in the older parts of town, where eye-level windows and doors are many. That's part of my seeming obsession with glazing-free framing.
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In regards to the "won't buy work unless it's framed" thing, it has been my experience that framing makes it a lot easier to sell pieces.
I think it does make a difference int he market one is in. "Classic" work with classic buyers maybe more with frame I would guess/?
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I print for several galleries here in Brazil, from budget art galleries to high end (very expensive) ones, and I can tell you for sure that no gallery here would sell an unframed work. Their argument is that people want finished, ready to hang pieces nowadays. Very few buyers want to go to a framer to have a custom frame made. The art collector, that mythical creature that buys tons of art and don't care about frames because he will unframe the piece to store it on a conservation package, is as common as unicorns today. The 21st century art collectors fill their walls with framed pieces and, if they have enough money to buy tons of art they certainly have acres of walls to fill.
The exceptions are the galleries aiming tourists. For obvious reasons they sell a lot of images rolled on tubes or on small matt packages (without frame or glass).
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I print for several galleries here in Brazil, from budget art galleries to high end (very expensive) ones, and I can tell you for sure that no gallery here would sell an unframed work. Their argument is that people want finished, ready to hang pieces nowadays. Very few buyers want to go to a framer to have a custom frame made. The art collector, that mythical creature that buys tons of art and don't care about frames because he will unframe the piece to store it on a conservation package, is as common as unicorns today. The 21st century art collectors fill their walls with framed pieces and, if they have enough money to buy tons of art they certainly have acres of walls to fill.
The exceptions are the galleries aiming tourists. For obvious reasons they sell a lot of images rolled on tubes or on small matt packages (without frame or glass).
When I was at Art Basel this year, there was a wide variety of presentations. Time for a new thread about presentation.
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When I was at Art Basel this year, there was a wide variety of presentations. Time for a new thread about presentation.
Sure. By the way, when I say "framed" I mean ready to hang. That include frameless facemounts with just hangers on the back, gallery wraps, and any other finished form of presentation.
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Sure. By the way, when I say "framed" I mean ready to hang. That include frameless facemounts with just hangers on the back, gallery wraps, and any other finished form of presentation.
I tried frameless on gator board. That was so fragile that if you breathed funny they would get dings or dents! Those were/are the worst! I tried a hard fiber board, I think its called melamine. That's was ok but still wasn't right for me.
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There is no worse mounting glue than canvas varnish. Mainly, it dries too fast and it's not thick enough. And it costs too much.
Two words: Miracle Muck. Seven words: Miracle Muck is ruined by freezing temperatures, and also by sustained temperatures over about 75F.
Elmer's White Glue from your local hardware or office supply will work in a pinch until warmer weather arrives on the highway. But good ol' Muck is the best. Or Laminall, which also freezes and costs quite a bit more for having sodium bicarbonate added to make it pH neutral, which is probably irrelevant for a glue.
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(...) "Seven words: Miracle Muck is ruined by freezing temperatures, and also by sustained temperatures over about 75F.
Elmer's White Glue from your local hardware or office supply will work in a pinch until warmer weather arrives on the highway." (...)
That is the main reason I avoid gluing. Right now (12:20pm) the thermometer outside my building is reading 40ºC (104ºF), a night it drops to something like 28ºC (82ºF). Only during the winter we stay below 23ºC (75ºF) and not for long. At least freezing is not an issue! :D
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The L pins I was mentioning are these -
http://www.amazon.com/Moore-Exhibition-L-Pins-Pkg-20/dp/B0027A79FK/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1421504370&sr=8-3&keywords=l+pin
Not those big plastic things or the other fatter metal ones. This is what we used at the museum and they held matted 20x24 prints with no problem.
These are pretty much invisible.
Our blue chip photography gallery here in Atlanta, Jackson Fine Art, has begun within the last few years to fame work, but have it mounted to dibond and not use any glass or plexi.
I believe this started happening when the great totally reflection free museum plexi came on the market. It is super nice and super expensive, and even the best galleries selling prints for many thousands of dollars have often refrained from using it for exhibition. Of course they would have the glass put in the frame if purchased. This is not a bad way to go. Shows are also put together that just mount on dibond with a hanger on the back and no frame or glass used. That looks great but edges are of course vulnerable.
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...but edges are of course vulnerable.
What I believe is slowly creeping into the art paradigm is that art is at some level disposable. Or perhaps that art wears out and one simply replaces it as needed. Have to think about this, but there does seem to be a different meme emerging in respect to physical aspects and longevity of art pieces.
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It's not new. There are now a couple of generations of photographers work, big names, whose work has totally deteriorated. Some of it I scan and reprint when collectors have returned it to the artist or gallery after 15-20 years. I have to explain to museum curators and gallery people to this day that type C prints are junk. It is amazing how even now most of even the high-end galleries don't know the difference between dyes and pigments or good papers and bad ones. My friends who did a lot of color work in the 80s with C prints and 20x24 polaroids have seen entire decades of their work lost. There are some people who take the trouble to go back and have their color negs and chromes, or polaroids, scanned, but most don't, they just move on.