Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: Iluvmycam on January 07, 2015, 10:10:48 am
-
Here is a good example of why I'd move away from Leica fast...if there was another digital rangefinder. (I have 5 Leicas and 6 Fujis)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1059620-REG/leica_14014_soft_release_button_leica.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/909178-REG/leica_14397_body_cap_m.html
Everything is overpriced and the Leica has a 2nd rate sensor for the $. No one can argue the fit and finish of the Leica...superb. But fit and finish don't produce pix...it massages the ego of the camera fondler.
The Fuji forum banned me for telling a few of them that they are a bunch of camera fondlers. But Leica devotees are second to none when it comes to camera fondlers.
There is nothing wrong with being a camera collector. But if you can't produce anything worthwhile for pix, don't get mad if someone calls you a camera fondler. Such people put their pride in their fondling. A non-camera fondler puts their pride in their pix.
-
must suck to feel that way...
-
...such people put their pride in their fondling. A non-camera fondler puts their pride in their pix.
Yeah, right... says a guy with the name "I love my camera"!? How deep is that love? Is it only platonic or...? 1st base, 2nd base, 3rd base? Measurbating involved?
-
I wouldn't call the effort subtle like the presentation of a dry fly - more like hammering the bank with a streamer from a drift boat but - you've already got two strikes. Good fishing I guess. :-)
Later,
Johnny
-
How is this not just plain ol' trolling? Leica operates in the luxury market, and doing so is how they stay in business. You can be offended (or not) by the existence of luxury goods. That's okay…your choice. But to broaden it into a "Leica owners are gear fondlers" thing is silly. In my experience they're (we're) as diverse a collection of folks as any other photo-based group. Far better to do creative things with whatever gear you happen to own & use.
-Dave-
-
(I have 5 Leicas and 6 Fujis)
That's quite a collection, just all those body caps are worth over $300. You could trade them for a used D90.
-
Here is a good example of why I'd move away from Leica fast...if there was another digital rangefinder. (I have 5 Leicas and 6 Fujis)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1059620-REG/leica_14014_soft_release_button_leica.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/909178-REG/leica_14397_body_cap_m.html
Everything is overpriced and the Leica has a 2nd rate sensor for the $. No one can argue the fit and finish of the Leica...superb. But fit and finish don't produce pix...it massages the ego of the camera fondler.
The Fuji forum banned me for telling a few of them that they are a bunch of camera fondlers. But Leica devotees are second to none when it comes to camera fondlers.
There is nothing wrong with being a camera collector. But if you can't produce anything worthwhile for pix, don't get mad if someone calls you a camera fondler. Such people put their pride in their fondling. A non-camera fondler puts their pride in their pix.
:D
On a sad and depressing day (the news, Paris...) thank you for bringing joy to my life :D
-
Here is a good example of why I'd move away from Leica fast...if there was another digital rangefinder. (I have 5 Leicas and 6 Fujis)
You could take the view that in digital RF's at least Leica are mere come lately imitators. Epson got there first with the worlds first digital RF, the RD1. Sell up and get the original digital RF... The RD1! :D
-
M240 IQ is 'just' doable for me.
I prefer Fuji's X sensor for IQ.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/Mosh_Pit_no._7_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg/1280px-Mosh_Pit_no._7_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg
Fuji X
Fuji has a stupendous sensor. It is so good, I hate having to use the Leica sensor cause I know what the Fuji cando. But, I hate fighting the screwy controls on the Fuji. Fuji must have been designed by a real fondler. Focus by wire is one of the worst inventions that have come out of camera design. And Fuji keeps dummy down their lenses removing controls. Screwy Fuji. When I put a flash on my Fuji it wont work unless you reprogram the damn cam. I've missed many a shot due to the screwy
Fuji. When I put a flash in my Leica...guess what...it works.
But, both cams are fudged up in their own way. So I can chew out Fuji over Leica or Leica over Fuji.
Still, I wish Fuji made Leica sensor. I use Fuji's if my cams will be wrecked. Fuji's are disposable, Leica's are not. Leica's controls are perfect. They are well thought out and simplified from eons of making great reportage cams. But Leica started on the new path of making high priced cams for fondlers more so that reporters.
I'm a doc photog, I'm not a fan boy of any one cam. It is a tool, that is it. I have to push my files a lot since I am not a staged / set up / studio photog. I prefer not having to fight my tools.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/GOTJ_Fire_Breather_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg/996px-GOTJ_Fire_Breather_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg
M240
Leica should have done better with its sensor on the M240 for the price it charges.
This is about as good as it gets for the M240 with my work.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Bikers%27_Mardi_Gras_no.177_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg/1046px-Bikers%27_Mardi_Gras_no.177_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Juggalete_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg/1037px-Juggalete_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg
M240
They talk of pixel density. The Leica M240 strikes me as 'low density' compared to the Fuji...but I'm not expert. Just some files work better than others. Leica's files will fall apart when you push em.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/05/The_Plane_Worshipers_vers_1_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg/1040px-The_Plane_Worshipers_vers_1_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Orient_Beach_St._Martin_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr._LR.jpg/1026px-Orient_Beach_St._Martin_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr._LR.jpg
M240
But any file will fall apart if you push it enuf...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Pole_Dance_Selfie_%40_Bikers%27_Mardi_Gras_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Bikers%27_Mardi_Gras_no._36_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg/1024px-Bikers%27_Mardi_Gras_no._36_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg
Fuji X
Fuji has beautiful files to work with, even with the crop and lower mp sensor. Fuji X will do nice single image HDR. Leica falls apart more so than the Fuji with single image HDR.
M240 does nice BW...
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/Amsterdam_no._49_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg/997px-Amsterdam_no._49_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg
M240
The Monochrom can produce 'film like' files, if you know how to work em.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Biker_no._134_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg/624px-Biker_no._134_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Bikers%27_Mardi_Gras_no.29_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg/1024px-Bikers%27_Mardi_Gras_no.29_Copyright_2014_Daniel_D._Teoli_Jr..jpg
But MM is still way overpriced for what it is.
1 had 5 Leicas', sold 1 now have 4. I wont be upgrading the M240 any time soon unless Leica comes out with a 36 mp for $4500. If Fuji or some other company comes out with a 28mp - 36 mp rangefinder Leica knockoff for $3000 then will probably move.
Bottom line...Leica is way overpriced unless your a fondler. It is the finest fit and finish you can get for a mirrorless, but it has a second rate sesnor that my $500 Fuji rivals and sometimes betters. The only reason I use Leica is because of the manual controls and rangefinder. Otherwise I was done with Leica when I got rid of my M'6's.
Tests with various cams including Leicas. (film and 6 mp to 40mp.)
http://www.photographycompared.tumblr.com/
-
You could take the view that in digital RF's at least Leica are mere come lately imitators. Epson got there first with the worlds first digital RF, the RD1. Sell up and get the original digital RF... The RD1! :D
Yeah! :D My R-D1 has been retired from active duty but I like to give it some exercise every now & then.
I've taken many of my favorite photos, especially during the film era, with RF cameras. Not because they're necessarily so special in & of themselves but because I get along with them so well that they've usually been on-hand when opportunity/inspiration has presented itself.
-Dave-
-
OEM camera accessories are always overpriced not likely to change either. As Leica is a top tier "niche" brand it's not shocking they're even more saucy on prices
And not everyone who owns Leica is rich I know a few people who worked long and hard to acquire their Leica stuff. Saying that I've never had a fondness for the brand leaving price aside it's just not my cup of tea
-
M240 IQ is 'just' doable for me...............
........................................................
...................................................
http://www.photographycompared.tumblr.com/
Not only does he troll, but he does it with such masterful logorrhea.
-
Not only does he troll, but he does it with such masterful logorrhea.
Cool. A word I had to look up. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logorrhea_(psychology)) Up to that point this thread was just a waste of time.
-
Cool. A word I had to look up. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logorrhea_(psychology)) Up to that point this thread was just a waste of time.
I actually thought it was quite funny.
I still can't read the camera fondler bits without them having an effect :D I think that the OP's little rant would be great as a Monty P sketch.
-
I think he's trying to filibuster the M240 because he can't afford it? I mean my experience with the Leica is that it's sharper. It produces a different feel, from the X-T1, and the d810. It tends to get things closer to right, straight out of the gate.
That being said, it's not doing anything I can't produce in post production for the most part on my d810. My friends from the camera shop swear by them, but I can produce incredible images on a rx100, or my 10MP camera phone. And the bottom line is, if you're looking to buy a car. And all you care about is the speed...
You can spend 1.15M on a mclaren P1 2014 and do 0-60 in 2.7 seconds
http://www.caranddriver.com/mclaren/p1
or you can go with the technology company Tesla, and do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, but spend 1/10th the price.
http://www.teslamotors.com/models
Sure, if you've got the Tesla, you're probably going to lose, but as far as I'm concerned, you're winning either way.
-Maddog
-
I've gotta say I'm a little leery of Leicas being compared to high-performance cars. Next thing you know, out come the watch & sailing boat discussions. All the stuff that (with some justification IMO) sets off the gear fondler accusations. Personally I really like rangefinders. That some of 'em I own happen to be Leicas has more to do with availability than anything else. If CaNikon were still making RFs the situation would likely be different. But that scenario exists only in an alternate universe where folks try out new tech advances like TTL viewing and autofocus and then decide…nah. :D
I learned pic-taking with an M2, and my dad eventually gave it to me…'cuz he hardly ever used it, prefering his pocketable Retina IIc. So much for luxury status.
-Dave-
-
I don't know Dave, I think once a guy tries the EVF on the X-T1 you can immediately realize all other technology is outdated and will likely soon be replaced. The only negative of that in my view is that it sucks down more battery power.
-
Or an Ariel Atom and renting some decent racing tack for the rest of the money?
http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/atom/
Best regards
Erik
I think he's trying to filibuster the M240 because he can't afford it? I mean my experience with the Leica is that it's sharper. It produces a different feel, from the X-T1, and the d810. It tends to get things closer to right, straight out of the gate.
That being said, it's not doing anything I can't produce in post production for the most part on my d810. My friends from the camera shop swear by them, but I can produce incredible images on a rx100, or my 10MP camera phone. And the bottom line is, if you're looking to buy a car. And all you care about is the speed...
You can spend 1.15M on a mclaren P1 2014 and do 0-60 in 2.7 seconds
http://www.caranddriver.com/mclaren/p1
or you can go with the technology company Tesla, and do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, but spend 1/10th the price.
http://www.teslamotors.com/models
Sure, if you've got the Tesla, you're probably going to lose, but as far as I'm concerned, you're winning either way.
-Maddog
-
I try not to judge a person by the camera he/she uses. I love the Olympus m43 system. Sure, it does not create the cleanest files or the most detailed images, but still it is a really nice tool. If feels just right. It's versatile, small, light, and allows me to take pictures with less fuss than what I'd been using prior.
I like the iPhone, Nikon D810, the Sony A7s, Fuji's lineup, Canon's optics, MFDBs on view cams, pancake cams, and a dedicated body ala Pentax. Though for the time being, the Olympus system is just right for me.
The one thought that rarely occurs to me while I study a great picture is what camera the photographer used.
-
Leica is all about a different shooting experience and files that have a separate look.
The Leica M9 IMO provides this.
The Leica M 240 not enough. The files are too close to other CMOS files from other manufacturers.
Leica needs to get its own look back and hopefully they succeed with the next iteration of the Leica M.
In addition it should also have a built-in EVF with state of the art focus peaking and magnification for the non-rangefinder folks.
If they can pull that off only non-Leica shooters will complain about it being overpriced.
-
I love ccd cameras and for our work believe they produce a superior look.
Most people will disagree, but to each his own.
The thing is when I'm under heavy production moving from flash to continuous to available light, rarely do I use a ccd camera, but instead a 1dx.
It gets within a certain closeness to the ccd cameras, but better put it gets the job done fast.
But Leicas, I wouldn't say they're overpriced, because they sell for what they sell for. The upside is you rarely change a leica every 2 years, the downside is most of them are single purpose cameras.
IMO
BC
-
Keith,
Thanks for making that point… and thanks for posting another great image.
Best regards
Erik
I regularly set out with every intention of using my M9 but almost inevitably reach for the M240.
Reasons include the greater dynamic range, the superior high ISO performance and the option to select faster auto ISO speeds, the option of using Live View and an EVF together with the ability to frame with precision, the vastly superior screen, Focus Peaking and Image Magnification with the Focus Button, more MP...
When I compare files out of camera I have a preference for the M9 colour, just, but the last time I relied on out-of-camera files was in the last century.
Leica M240, 35mm Lux. Hangdog, Morocco, February 2015.
(http://www.keithlaban.co.uk/hangdog.jpg)
-
I regularly set out with every intention of using my M9 but almost inevitably reach for the M240.
Reasons include the greater dynamic range, the superior high ISO performance and the option to select faster auto ISO speeds, the option of using Live View and an EVF together with the ability to frame with precision, the vastly superior screen, Focus Peaking and Image Magnification with the Focus Button, more MP...
When I compare files out of camera I have a preference for the M9 colour, just, but the last time I relied on out-of-camera files was in the last century.
Keith,
Thanks for the input!
The challenge for Leica though is that all of the things you mention can probably be done as good, if not better by a Sony a7II which is about $5K cheaper...
The M9 CCD look (different from MF CCD as well IMO) and the rangefinder experience are IMO what set Leica apart with the M9.
I have to admit that I never owned a M240 though, so perhaps I should give it a try...
How do you find the rangefinder focusing with the M240? Do you find it easier than with the M9?
Best, Joris
-
I shoot mostly with my Sony a7r now instead of my M9. One can debate the advantages of each, but one area where I don't think there is any debate is that the Leica sensor (probably mostly because of the thinner cover over it) is way better at capturing details at the edges with relatively symmetrical wide angle lenses. The inability to use the astoundingly good Leica M wide angles has been a huge disappointment for me. (The WATE/Tri-Elmar 16-21 works well on the Sony due to it being a retrofocus zoom design, but it's larger, heavier, and not as good wide open as the best Leica fixed focus wides.)
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
-
I don't believe the A7ll handles Leica M wides much if any better than the A7r. My Zeiss ZM 21/2.8 and ZM 35/2 lenses are unusable on my A7ll. So, you're right, I don't consider the A7 series to be much of a substitute for the Leica.
Later,
Johnny
-
The challenge for Leica though is that all of the things you mention can probably be done as good, if not better by a Sony a7II which is about $5K cheaper...
I use a wide variety of rangefinder lenses with my A7r. Ignoring the blurring/smearing issues with wide (and sometimes not so wide) lenses, using those same lenses on an actual RF camera is just a more fluid experience. This is why I ended up getting a pair of lightly used M8.2s last year, about three months after getting the A7r. Eight years or so down the road the M8's "flaws"—extended IR response, APS-H sensor—no longer bother me…they just make the cameras different to the other stuff I own & use. Nowadays I enjoy going with what a camera offers rather than pulling & kneading its files to deliver a predetermined look. Call me the anti- Peter Lik. :D
I recently got to try out Zeiss' 50mm Loxia manual focus lens on an A7s. Now that was an enjoyable experience. The camera & lens talk to each other…when you turn the focus ring the camera's focusing rectangle magnifies. And since you're turning an actual focusing helical you get the feel you expect from an MF lens. If the lens allowed auto-aperture control the combo would be just about perfect.
-Dave-
-
Just to be clear, I never meant to say that the Sony does it better with Leica lenses...
I keep it separated, Leica lenses on the M9, Sony lenses (still few in number...) on the A7s...
-
Hi Joris,
The Sony A series cameras are many things to many people but the one thing they're not to anyone are rangefinders. I came to rangefinders late but have adopted them and love them.
I tend to choose and build a system around specific lenses. As an example my preference for the Hasselblad H system was in large part due to my appreciation of the HCD 28mm f/4.0 lens. Time has moved on and now the same can be said of my preference for the M system and in combination with the Leica Super-Elmar 21mm f/3.4 ASPH, a fantastic lens - superior to the HCD 28 - and together with the M240 has now replaced the Hassy system for the same work which is something I could have never done with an M9. The M240 is so versatile. I love it in the hand, it just feels right. By contrast when I pick up a Fuji or Sony all I want to do is put them down again.
I'm not sure what Leica have done to improve on the rangefinder in the M240 but improved it is. Apparently it's also more robust - needed to be. Of course, it's also a joy to be able to use liveview to check the rangefinder calibration!
Best
Keith
I kind of was planning to give the next iteration of the M a try... but thanks to you I might need to give the M 240 an earlier try... :)
I also have the Super-Elmar-M 21mm/f3.4. Excellent lens I agree.
Let me think about this...
Thanks, Joris.
-
Hi,
I am not sure the Leica is overpriced. To begin with the company was on edge of economic failure for a long time, the cameras were expensive but they didn't earn enough.
Andreas Kaufmann made a major investment (65 milliion €, as far as I recall) and now they are on the go. Making relatively few cameras by and large manually hast its costs. Also Leica needs to develop some new technology like the CMOS-sensor, the Maestro processor and a cover glass to support the M-line of lenses.
A company like Sony can build an advanced camera for a fracture of the cost, not least while it is kept simple. Also Sony can dilute much of development costs over a large production.
Leica has some compacts made by Panasonic, but they are not "blinged up" cameras like some so called "Hasselblads". Those cameras have a slightly different design and a somewhat higher price tag.
I would not argue that the Leica is worth it's price, that question is up to the buyer, but a largely mechanical camera built in small series in Germany will always be a bit on the expensive side.
Best regards
Erik
-
As always I'd caution to try before you buy. In my opinion the M240 offers a significant improvement in terms of versatility but that said it is still fatally flawed in that it's impossible to scroll the focus point around the frame. Apparently Leica are well aware that this is seen by many as a balls-up and are unlikely to repeat the omission on the next incarnation which will probably be announced later this year.
That said, there have been some incredible offers on new M240s recently.
Good shooting
Keith,
From what I have read and from what you say I gather that the M 240 is the better and more versatile "rangefinder" camera.
As above-mentioned I feel that Leica really needs a state of the art built-in EVF for the next M. Anything less is simply not going to cut it and will only appeal to the already converted.
The EVF of Leica was probably already underwhelming 2 years ago and since then the gap with Fuji, Sony, Olympus, etc has only increased.
Which files you like best is a matter of personal preference. I can say that I like the M9 files better out of the box but I am not sure whether after post there would still be a lot of difference.
The M currently goes for $6,500 in the US. Despite a price increase (official price now $7,450) the promotion was prolonged because apparently the inventory is not moving fast enough. Plus the stronger dollar.
Used ones go for anywhere between $4.5K and $5.5K, used M9 $3-3.5K...
Best, Joris.
-
I just spotted this article. A challenge on the CCD versus CMOS debate:
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/02/the-great-debate-ccd-vs-cmos-part-1/
-
Thanks!
Interesting, many users say there is a lot of difference, but I see very little.
Best regards
Erik
I just spotted this article. A challenge on the CCD versus CMOS debate:
http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2015/02/the-great-debate-ccd-vs-cmos-part-1/
-
I really don't understand some people's compulsions. The OP is trolling big time or is totally feeling inferior for not having a Leica (in spite of all his protestations). Why bother telling people to move away as fast as possible from something that most people don't have and would not have unless they really liked to? Others made the automobile comparison, but even then, they posited that the less expensive one is better. I say who cares? I'm a bit of a car nut and a camera collector and amateur photographer. I will buy and drive whatever I damned well please and I can afford. I have no need to put down other people's choices. I'm not so insecure or envious to throw around this little "sour grapes" tirade. If the OP hates Leicas so much, why does he have so many? Sounds fishy to me...
-
I really don't understand some people's compulsions. The OP is trolling big time or is totally feeling inferior for not having a Leica (in spite of all his protestations). Why bother telling people to move away as fast as possible from something that most people don't have and would not have unless they really liked to? Others made the automobile comparison, but even then, they posited that the less expensive one is better. I say who cares? I'm a bit of a car nut and a camera collector and amateur photographer. I will buy and drive whatever I damned well please and I can afford. I have no need to put down other people's choices. I'm not so insecure or envious to throw around this little "sour grapes" tirade. If the OP hates Leicas so much, why does he have so many? Sounds fishy to me...
If he has so many Leicas, why would he have feelings of being "inferior" or "sour grapes". Seems like he's speaking from a position of knowledge and experience.
I think Leica deserves the criticism it gets. Their design is in many ways a good one, but in other ways, not at all. The camera feels good, and works well. But a single focus point for manual focus? Surely there is a better way.
-
Hi,
First line of OP's posting: … I have 5 Leicas and 6 Fujis …
Best regards
Erik
I really don't understand some people's compulsions. The OP is trolling big time or is totally feeling inferior for not having a Leica (in spite of all his protestations). Why bother telling people to move away as fast as possible from something that most people don't have and would not have unless they really liked to? Others made the automobile comparison, but even then, they posited that the less expensive one is better. I say who cares? I'm a bit of a car nut and a camera collector and amateur photographer. I will buy and drive whatever I damned well please and I can afford. I have no need to put down other people's choices. I'm not so insecure or envious to throw around this little "sour grapes" tirade. If the OP hates Leicas so much, why does he have so many? Sounds fishy to me...
-
How is this not just plain ol' trolling? Leica operates in the luxury market, and doing so is how they stay in business. You can be offended (or not) by the existence of luxury goods. That's okay…your choice. But to broaden it into a "Leica owners are gear fondlers" thing is silly. In my experience they're (we're) as diverse a collection of folks as any other photo-based group. Far better to do creative things with whatever gear you happen to own & use.
-Dave-
During the last reporting period (ending March 2014) Leica's camera/lens/sport optics sales rose nearly 6% to well-over $300,000,000 for the year. The company is profitable, to the tune of nearly 14% net profit. Clearly, they are doing something right, and selling more than a few cameras to a few Ferrari owners.
Nikon? Canon? Not so much good news. In fact, they are experiencing broadly falling sales. Big numbers, but smaller than last year, which was smaller than the year before that.
Fuji? Worldwide camera sales up about 8% in the year ended March 2014, and the 'imaging solutions' business was nicely profitable vs. a loss in 2013.