Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: BRPhotography on December 18, 2014, 04:16:13 pm
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Hi, I'm having problems with Photoshop CS6. I'm also using Lightroom 5.7 and Adobe Camera Raw 8.7. I'm running Windows 7 Professional 64 bit and a Zotiac Nivida GeForce GT 640. Extra specs: Intel Core i7 3.5 GHz quad core and 32 GB 1600 MHz RAM. Camera: Nikon D610. Happens with all my lenses.
Okay, now to the problem...
I'm having a problem with the Lighten and Darken blend modes in CS6. Once I merge the layer it gets these weird bands. It is fine until I merge the layers together or export; unless you zoom in with a blend mode of lighten, then it shows in full detail, oddly enough. I bring my raw files into Lightroom 5, edit, save as highest quality JPEG and then open in Photoshop. I have tried different combinations of pictures and have reset Photoshop's settings. I've never had this problem before. See DSC_7661-1.
I talked to someone on the Adobe forums and they suggested using 16 bit. I did just that. Used Camera Raw this time and had it set to open as 16 bit. Same issue. See flickr: https://www.flickr.com/gp/benjaminrootphotography/3Q1i85
Soooo, just out of curiosity, I decided to not edit the Raw NEF at all. Loaded into stacks and used Lighten and merged. What? No lines? See Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/gp/benjaminrootphotography/J4GX43
I also used startrails exe with edited NEFs saved as JPEGs from both Camera Raw and Lightroom with the same banded result.
The Adobe forum member suggested I try here and see what you guys might have.
I previously used a Nikon D3200 and Lightroom 4. I had to upgrade to Lr 5 for D610 Raw file support.
Thank you very much for any input you may have!
Benjamin
Quick update: Just tried with my D3200 and got the same results
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Banding can be introduced by the display or it can be in the document. IF you see this banding in 16-bit data (high bit), dollars to doughnuts it’s banding caused by the display system and not in the data file.
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Thank you for your reply. I don't think it's my screen; I've sent to others and they got the same result.
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Thank you for your reply. I don't think it's my screen; I've sent to others and they got the same result.
If they are not using a high bit panel, they might see the same banding as you do.
Here’s what I suggest. Crop a small area. Flatten (that’s kind of important too, the artifacts could be due again to how PS is displaying your data). Post a link, let us look it over. There isn’t going to be any banding due to a display on my NEC SpectraView.
Again, it’s very, very unlikely there’s banding in the data if you do have a high bit file. It‘s far more likely it‘s a display issue in which case you have nothing to worry about other than getting a much better display ;D
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Here is a sample taken with my D3200 just a few minutes ago with the exact same pattern.
Let me know
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That's not going to fly (a JPEG). We need a section of the actual high res, high bit file.
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Okay. Is a 16 bit Tiff fine?
Thank you,
Benjamin
It will be a minute or two. Couple hundred MB uploading to Dropbox now. I assumed 16 bit Tiff would be fine
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Okay, here is the cropped section in 16 bit Tiff: https://www.dropbox.com/s/00s1pu81bug42s1/DSC_8989%20cropped.tif?dl=0
The un-cropped image is still uploading.
One more thing I ought to mention is that I have been running the same monitor since before having this issue. It's a 22" LED backlit ViewSonic. Not the best, I know.
Please let me know if you need any more information or files...
Thank you!
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It seems the problem is in Photoshop. Have you tried re-installing?
Regards
Dale
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Thank you for your input. I have not re-installed, though I did do a reset. Do you think it is a Photoshop or Camera Raw/Lightroom problem? When I didn't edit and just opened the raw files in Photoshop layers, everything was fine..
Here is the full size Tiff: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ts29yqgr7r0paai/DSC_8989.tif?dl=0
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I am going to start uploading a few of the Edited DNG Raw files for anyone interested.
Thank you everyone. :)
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Here is the Dropbox link to ten Raw files: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/07zpnmp0fa2m85l/AAAbSZgmdxEVnhDKkNj_78S_a?dl=0
They were shot in NEF (Nikon D610), edited in Lightroom, and exported as DNG. That is all. If I use these, the bands occur; if I reset the DNG to original Raw state, the bands do not occur. The same is true using my D3200.
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I see what you are referring to as banding but I suspect that's part of the actual capture and it's only visible to me in the sky area. I don't see it in the area below the sky and I've added a rectangle marquee to it and the sky and both lightened and darkened it using Levels to better view what's going on. Again, I don't see it below the sky so I suspect it's something you actually captured. It's important to view this at 100% too. Zooming out makes the 'circles' look worse due to how Photoshop handles zoomed out previews.
Further, do you see this effect on other images? If you captured say just a gray card? Or even a black capture (lens cap on)? IF you do, then perhaps it is something amiss with your camera. IF you only see it in this night capture, then it's something the camera recorded. It doesn't look like the typical banding one sees with lower bit data (you can emulate banding by using the Posterize command).
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I see what you are referring to as banding but I suspect that's part of the actual capture and it's only visible to me in the sky area. I don't see it in the area below the sky and I've added a rectangle marquee to it and the sky and both lightened and darkened it using Levels to better view what's going on. Again, I don't see it below the sky so I suspect it's something you actually captured. It's important to view this at 100% too. Zooming out makes the 'circles' look worse due to how Photoshop handles zoomed out previews.
Further, do you see this effect on other images? If you captured say just a gray card? Or even a black capture (lens cap on)? IF you do, then perhaps it is something amiss with your camera. IF you only see it in this night capture, then it's something the camera recorded. It doesn't look like the typical banding one sees with lower bit data (you can emulate banding by using the Posterize command).
Yes, I can see it on other images. I can also see it when I use my other camera, and the pattern is exactly identical. I can also see it on the black outer part (the aperture blades).
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Yes, I can see it on other images.
Again, I'd setup a capture of something smooth and flat like a gray card and let us look at it. This isn't Kosher, something is wrong.
I can also see it when I use my other camera, and the pattern is exactly identical.
Very strange! Were both subject to some identical hardship?
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Very strange! Were both subject to some identical hardship?
No, not really. One was inside the house, today. The other was outside last night and it was only 20° F.
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Any chance a common attribute of all captures from both cameras that exhibit this issue is the same lens?
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And this hasn't happened before. It was after updating to Lightroom 5 and Camera Raw 8.7
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Any chance a common attribute of all captures from both cameras that exhibit this issue is the same lens?
I have tried a different lens with the same result... Focal length was different too
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And this hasn't happened before. It was after updating to Lightroom 5 and Camera Raw 8.7
So maybe next step is to post a raw or DNG. Again, something as smooth as possible, say ISO 100.
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So maybe next step is to post a raw or DNG. Again, something as smooth as possible, say ISO 100.
Okay, I actually did post ten DNG raw files in a previous comment. Would you like me to uss my D610 in DX (24x16 ASP-C vs 36x24) crop mode?
Also, did you catch that it doesn't happen when I reset the raw file to an un-edited state?
Ten DNGs: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/07zpnmp0fa2m85l/AAAbSZgmdxEVnhDKkNj_78S_a?dl=0
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So maybe next step is to post a raw or DNG. Again, something as smooth as possible, say ISO 100.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xxbk3ykjn5i2t7d/DSC_9295.NEF?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g3eyzwusxqhgcb9/DSC_9296.NEF?dl=0
I didn't take extra pictures so you can use Lighten in Photoshop, but I can....
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Just dragged and dropped DSC_9295.NEF onto Photoshop, it opens in ACR. I do nothing but click on Open. I see no banding. I can save it as a TIFF and upload too for you to compare to what you get.
Maybe it is your copy of the raw converter or some setting? I don’t see anything odd on the gray card.
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Here’s the processed TIFF:
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/DSC_9295.tif
Does it look clean compared to what you got?
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I'm confused. I think we all are. What are the exact steps and exact images needed to produce banding?
In the first post, OP says the problem occurs when using lighten and darken blend modes.
Later, 10 DNGs show up, but no hint at which ones produce banding for the OP, in what sequence, lighten or darken? Is it all of them, some of them?
There is a pic of a door showing banding. What two or more images were blended, in what sequence and what mode, to produce that?
There is a single gray card shot. Andrew can't make it show banding all by itself. Can the OP make it show banding? If so, how?
For what it's worth, I downloaded 4 of the 10 DNG "starfield" shots. Ran them thru ACR 8.6 to Photoshop CC 2014 layers. Set the blending mode on the top 3 layers to Lighten. At 100% view I can see some slight banding, mostly in the bright area just above the horizon. If I turn off one layer, the banding is less, so I suspect if I had all 10 shots the banding would be more.
But I see the banding both before and after flattening the layer stack. Like the OP, I'm pretty confident the banding is truly in the image, not an artifact of my monitor and profile. And, like the OP, when I remove all edits (set Camera Raw default) and do it again I see no banding.
So I started backing off the edits one at a time. Luckily, I made a good first guess. I removed just the lens correction. Viola, the banding disappeared. I don't want spend more time now on further tests. Maybe the OP and others can try. But my limited test points the finger at the Nikon lens correction profile.
That does not surprise me. I've always wondered where ACR puts lens corrections in the sequence of adjustments. Is it before or after other adjustments? Does it make a difference? Maybe so.
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As a Long time time user of blend modes I am wondering why you use darken & lighten modes? What useful purpose do they bring to your images? The books I have don't recommend them for anything worthwhile.
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Lighten mode: to create star trails images from a stack of sky images. Darken mode will result in a dark sky without stars.
I think Redcrown has nailed it. The lens correction are the culprit.
I downloaded the 10 DNGs, opened in LR and then in PS as layers, changed to lighten and later to darken. In both cases I got the ugly banding when flattening/merging visible
I then went back to LR, turned off lens corrections and repeated the process. No banding at all
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I don't do star trails so I am not missing anything? That is an interesting find with respect to LR.
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As a big user of the stack modes in CC for night shots, I had one question. Before you run the stack modes are you creating a smart object?
I regularly use the max and mean modes for star trail photography but always create a smart object before I run the modes. On average 60 layers converted to a smart object then run the stack modes.
I always convert the raw files to tiff in LR or C1 before loading into CC for stacking.
Paul
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Wow... Lots of posts to answer this morning :)
Sorry, I guess I forgot to say stack the images before.. Let me start from the beginning after answering a few questions.
digitaldog: I haven't ever seen anything in my Raw files either. Once I stack (as little as just two images), blend mode of lighten/darken, merge, then it appears. And yes, the Tiff you sent is clean as glass.
Redcrown: You hit the nail on the head... You did exactly what is was planning to do today, and you understood my method of madness correctly lol ;D
stamper: If I use the blend mode of lighten, it will let anything bright through, such as stars; which gives me startrails! Likewise, If I used darken the stars will disappear, leaving a clean sky. This works because the stars move, and the previous spot they were is now dark.
FranciscoDisilvestro: exactly nailed........
Paul2660: Yes, I did use smart objects and Maximum... Very similar result.
After reading all of the comments I doubt I need to explain much more since everyone figured out the issue. I am getting ready to try with my computer now.
THANK YOU everyone!!! :) :) :)
Benjamin
P.S. I have used lens corrections before with no issues. Must be something Adobe introduced recently.
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No lens corrections, no banding! Wooooooooooooooooooo....................
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For a lot of people with banding problems this will be good news......hopefully.
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For a lot of people with banding problems this will be good news......hopefully.
Yes! I am going to contact Adobe about this. Maybe they will fix it in the next release.
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http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/banding-pattern-when-using-profile-corrections-in-camera-raw-and-lightroom?rfm=1
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If it is the lens correction, try disabling the vignette correction portion of the lens correction. I recall the same problem in the vignetting correction in another raw converter a while back (I think it was DXO 8, maybe).
Kirk
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I will try that right now
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If it is the lens correction, try disabling the vignette correction portion of the lens correction. I recall the same problem in the vignetting correction in another raw converter a while back (I think it was DXO 8, maybe).
Kirk
I just tried it and it's just the opposite.. Vignette removal doesn't do it, Distortion Correction does it!
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This issue looks more a moire problem caused by the image noise and the "resampling" done when applying the lens correction. Stacking several images in lighten/darken mode amplifies the effect.
If you apply strong noise reduction and some grain, the effect is diminished but not eliminated
If I recall correctly, the issue with DXO was banding due the vigneting component. It was jus concentrical circles, not this shapes
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Smart objects were mentioned in an earlier post. I always use them in PS when I use the transform to preserve quality.
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This issue looks more a moire problem caused by the image noise and the "resampling" done when applying the lens correction. Stacking several images in lighten/darken mode amplifies the effect.
If you apply strong noise reduction and some grain, the effect is diminished but not eliminated
If I recall correctly, the issue with DXO was banding due the vignetting component. It was just concentrical circles, not this shapes
That could be, but as I said, I haven't had the problem before. Thus, it must be something introduced by Adobe in one of their updates. I will try some noise reduction to see what that does.
Smart objects were mentioned in an earlier post. I always use them in PS when I use the transform to preserve quality.
I did try the smart object and Maximum - same result.
Thank you everyone for you most generous help! It is much appreciated...
Benjamin
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This issue looks more a moire problem caused by the image noise and the "resampling" done when applying the lens correction. Stacking several images in lighten/darken mode amplifies the effect.
If you apply strong noise reduction and some grain, the effect is diminished but not eliminated
If I recall correctly, the issue with DXO was banding due the vigneting component. It was jus concentrical circles, not this shapes
I just tried the noise reduction (100% for both color and luminance, with no detail). The bands were drastically reduced and in a different pattern. The only issue for me is I almost never use noise reduction, besides the default color noise reduction applied by automatically.
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I think it's the old bug I posted here manifesting differently. It is not banding at 100% magnification right?
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=96273.0
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I think it's the old bug I posted here manifesting differently. It is not banding at 100% magnification right?
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=96273.0
A different issue.. Mine is with ACR and Lr's lens profile corrections. It' only visible, unless you look really hard for it, once you stack two or more images in Photoshop layers and merge. If you zoom in they will show up before you merge the stacked images.
Benjamin