Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: G* on December 07, 2014, 03:05:58 am
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Hi,
Just have to tell you ’bout a dream I woke up with today:
Combine this (you don’t have to follow the links, just read the headlines)
http://thenewcamera.com/sony-a7-ii-camera-announced-press-release-videos-and-full-specification/ (http://thenewcamera.com/sony-a7-ii-camera-announced-press-release-videos-and-full-specification/)
with this
http://thenewcamera.com/olympus-e-m6-to-capture-40-megapixel-images/ (http://thenewcamera.com/olympus-e-m6-to-capture-40-megapixel-images/).
Possibly with a good piezo-electric shutter dampening included. The technology is there, they just have to want to build it.
And then add this
http://thenewcamera.com/sony-multilayer-sensor-camera-rumor/ (http://thenewcamera.com/sony-multilayer-sensor-camera-rumor/).
Hmmm, at how many MP in how many frames are we yet? …
Plus my wildest dream: Fully customizable cropping in the EVF.
IT WOULD BE SO AWESOME!
Don’t you dare bringing me down to reality … Like saying I’d need to bring 20 batteries for a day of shooting …
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Hi,
I wouldn't count on multishot. The technology is under development but may come to small sensors first. Also it is not very obvious how it would work with longer exposures.
What I would expect for the A7rII is:
- Electronic First Shutter Curtain
- On sensor phase detection - leading to faster and more reliable AF
- Larger grip with a larger battery
- Improved layout, like on A7II
I would also expect A8 or A9 variants, possibly with 46-54 MP sensors and more robust construction.
Best regards
Erik
Hi,
Just have to tell you ’bout a dream I woke up with today:
Combine this (you don’t have to follow the links, just read the headlines)
http://thenewcamera.com/sony-a7-ii-camera-announced-press-release-videos-and-full-specification/ (http://thenewcamera.com/sony-a7-ii-camera-announced-press-release-videos-and-full-specification/)
with this
http://thenewcamera.com/olympus-e-m6-to-capture-40-megapixel-images/ (http://thenewcamera.com/olympus-e-m6-to-capture-40-megapixel-images/).
Possibly with a good piezo-electric shutter dampening included. The technology is there, they just have to want to build it.
And then add this
http://thenewcamera.com/sony-multilayer-sensor-camera-rumor/ (http://thenewcamera.com/sony-multilayer-sensor-camera-rumor/).
Hmmm, at how many MP in how many frames are we yet? …
Plus my wildest dream: Fully customizable cropping in the EVF.
IT WOULD BE SO AWESOME!
Don’t you dare bringing me down to reality … Like saying I’d need to bring 20 batteries for a day of shooting …
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What I would expect for the A7rII is:
- Electronic First Shutter Curtain
- On sensor phase detection - leading to faster and more reliable AF
- Larger grip with a larger battery
- Improved layout, like on A7II
I would also expect A8 or A9 variants, possibly with 46-54 MP sensors and more robust construction.
I would not expect Electronic First Curtain to be there, nor phase detection as it'd likely use the same sensor. But better ergonomic solutions, stronger mount, image stabilizer. And the ugly new surface decoration (I prefer plain industrial look) to :)
The rumoured high end model, be at A9 or something else, likely has a new sensor with more resolution and all the improvements of the A7II vs. A7. Might not work as well with M-mount rangefinder lenses though due to finer pixel pitch :(
What I wish is two lessons from Pentax's use of image stabilizer - AA filtering (yes, not as effective, but adjustable - video users might love) and astro tracking (compentating for earths rotation).
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I would not expect Electronic First Curtain to be there, nor phase detection as it'd likely use the same sensor. But better ergonomic solutions, stronger mount, image stabilizer. And the ugly new surface decoration (I prefer plain industrial look) to :)
Why not EFC? The Nikon d810 has EFC and the sensor is made by Sony, a7r is using the same sensor as the d800/d800e that did not had EFC, will make no sense for Sony to use the same same sensor as the actual a7r in a version 2 model when they had a similar sensor with slightly better dynamic range and electronic first curtain...
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I'm not sure that an A7r II would do much for my photography or just plain camera fantasies. Having the A7r and using it mostly on a tripod I don't think a Mark 2 is going to be that much of an improvement.
Now if the A7 II has better AF performance it may be that I can retire the last A mount cameras even if keeping some of the lenses. I think the only other camera that would cause me credit card distress would be the reputed A9 model and even then I think I could hold off for six months or so.
Now a Zeiss Lexia 21mm or 28mm at less than absolutely silly prices would see me kicking, biting and scratching myself to the front of the line. Even the slightly rumoured new Tamron primes are interesting especially if in FE mount.
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I just got the A7II and having the A7r. Sony just needs to drop that 36mpx sensor in this new body and call it a day. Its almost perfect now the A7II.
More background.
Made this comment and Im sticking to it
Folks I'm just going to say this which is extremely rare to do because I never want to sound bias and not neutral in anyway since I do reviews and test a lot on many diffrent cams. More importantly not because I guessed correctly and/or bought something. But my feeling that this is the 2014 camera of the year IMHO. Everything about it is just about perfect. This to me is a MAJOR upgrade to the FE series mount. I'm tempted to buy a second one. Sony do me a big favor stop drop and roll. Throw the 36 mpx in this and make it a A7rII today. Im dead serious Sony than make your A9 or whatever but do not miss the opportunity to sell a 36mpx version of this. More about my feelings later on this but this is the most balanced Sony camera to date in the FE mount. I may give the A7s second for its high ISO and the A77II for it AF speed in a DSLR style can than Nikon D810 for its upgrades over the D800e but this A7II is the most balanced and user friendly upgrade. All the little improvements really add up.
More info
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/52742-new-a7ii-users-reports-4.html
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Why not EFC? The Nikon d810 has EFC and the sensor is made by Sony, a7r is using the same sensor as the d800/d800e that did not had EFC, will make no sense for Sony to use the same same sensor as the actual a7r in a version 2 model when they had a similar sensor with slightly better dynamic range and electronic first curtain...
Wasn't aware D810 has EFC. Anyhow, it is possible that Sony can't use that sensor until someday in the future as Nikon may have exclusive access to the sensor, like AFAIK was the case with the D800/A7r sensor. Though it also might not be the case this time.
But I hope EFC will be there - without it I consider a mirrorless to be a faulty product ;)
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But I hope EFC will be there - without it I consider a mirrorless to be a faulty product ;)
Indeed :)
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Hi Guy,
I really appreciate your enthusiasm, but I have about two questions:
1) The Alpha 7II has on sensor phase detection, improving AF capability. With that 36 MP sensor used in the A7r, AF performance would be like A7r, I guess. Isn't a new sensor worth waiting for?
2) The Alpha 7II has electronic first curtain. The old A7r sensor probably doesn't support EFCS, else the A7r would have EFCS, too. Now, I realise that EFCS is not important for many users. Personally I shoot often in the 1/60 - 1/200 second range on tripod, and all my recent cameras have EFCS, so I feel this is important for me. I guess EFCS is worth waiting for, at least for me.
When the A7/A7r arrived I did consider buying into the A7r, but I had my Alpha 99 I was quite happy with and I recently bought my Hasselblad/P45+ combo so I have like 39MP. At that time I had some concerns about the lens program. On the other hand, I also have an A77. The A77 has 3.8 micron sensor and would that sensor be upscaled to full frame, it would offer 54 MP. Personally, that is the stuff I am waiting for.
Please not, I don't say the A7II or the A7r are not fine cameras, just saying that I am waiting for the next generation.
Now, for lenses: As things are right now, I would probably buy the 24-70/4 to go with the camera. What I would really like to have is an 85/2.0 (or so) with very good performance at f/2, because that is something I lack. I also find the Loxia lenses a bit interesting. The ability to use Canon T&S lenses on the A# is also very attractive.
Best regards
Erik
I just got the A7II and having the A7r. Sony just needs to drop that 36mpx sensor in this new body and call it a day. Its almost perfect now the A7II.
More background.
Made this comment and Im sticking to it
Folks I'm just going to say this which is extremely rare to do because I never want to sound bias and not neutral in anyway since I do reviews and test a lot on many diffrent cams. More importantly not because I guessed correctly and/or bought something. But my feeling that this is the 2014 camera of the year IMHO. Everything about it is just about perfect. This to me is a MAJOR upgrade to the FE series mount. I'm tempted to buy a second one. Sony do me a big favor stop drop and roll. Throw the 36 mpx in this and make it a A7rII today. Im dead serious Sony than make your A9 or whatever but do not miss the opportunity to sell a 36mpx version of this. More about my feelings later on this but this is the most balanced Sony camera to date in the FE mount. I may give the A7s second for its high ISO and the A77II for it AF speed in a DSLR style can than Nikon D810 for its upgrades over the D800e but this A7II is the most balanced and user friendly upgrade. All the little improvements really add up.
More info
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/52742-new-a7ii-users-reports-4.html
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Well I still have the A7r, the A7II was not a replacement for it but a addition. Actually it replaced my A77II which I use for PR and such. I felt the A7II with its AF improvement would get me closer to what I need over the A7 as far as AF speed. I also wanted the same mount cams. So now I'm FE mount on both setups. Just easier on me all around and I can commit more to FE lenses as they come around. I grabbed the 16-35 as well which is a nice lens for PR stuff. So now I have a nice combo kit . Canon 17 and 24TSE lenss, 16-35 . The ZA 50 and 85 1.4 glass as well. Now after a 200mm to round things off. I will replace my A7r with the newer breed coming in Febuary.
Shutter shake has not been a real issue. It's happened twice now which is pretty rare. I'm aware of it and avoid it. But as far as the TSE glass I really like having them. I'm hoping for a 45 replacement . To me the A7II even though on paper it may not be a big upgrade but it's all the little things that really do it. The AF now while not lightning fast as the A77II or A6000 it's really close. I'm not shooting sports so I don't need the fastest boat out there just a good competent one. This seems far better over the A7 which I had for awhile but sold it because it was not fast enough. The A7r is more the tech cam type to me. Slow is okay
But yes a new 46mpx sensor would certainly be a nice addition. They just need not to go nuts adding anything over what the A7II body can do. Its a very capable body now and take advantage of it and throw in a bigger sensor would be a huge success. I like to keep these things simple as it is today these Sonys have a lot of bells and whistles which I try to calm a lot of that down and turn stuff off.
The biggest issue for Sony was getting past there version 1 offerings. They did that with the A7 now its time for the A7r to be addressed which does have some added issues. Even so outside that the A7r has proven to be a great image maker when handled with care. Seriously where else can we go with TSE glass from a different brand. The power in the lens selections for folks gives Sony a lot of power.
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Hi Guy,
A lot of good points in your post. Early on, when the NEX was released I realised that bayonet was intended to be wide enough for full frame lenses, so the full frame version would be a great camera for folks have great old lenses with no digital body. A bit unfortunate that it doesn't play well with quite a few Leica M lenses.
I am pretty sure I will jump on the train next year.
Best regards
Erik
The biggest issue for Sony was getting past there version 1 offerings. They did that with the A7 now its time for the A7r to be addressed which does have some added issues. Even so outside that the A7r has proven to be a great image maker when handled with care. Seriously where else can we go with TSE glass from a different brand. The power in the lens selections for folks gives Sony a lot of power.
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Yes version 2 has proven better for the A7. I'm sure version 2 for the A7r should hit the mark. I would certainly wait until we hear the new specs on it to see if Sony is going in the right direction.
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But yes a new 46mpx sensor would certainly be a nice addition. They just need not to go nuts adding anything over what the A7II body can do ... I like to keep these things simple as it is today these Sonys have a lot of bells and whistles which I try to calm a lot of that down and turn stuff off.
+1
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Yes version 2 has proven better for the A7. I'm sure version 2 for the A7r should hit the mark. I would certainly wait until we hear the new specs on it to see if Sony is going in the right direction.
Would there actually have been an audience for the A7II if they had brought out the A7RII first?
I mean I see the resolution audience of the A7R and the sensitivity/video audience of the A7s.
I am not so sure about the audience for the A7 or A7II if it had not been the first camera to be released.
Joris.
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I think there certainly a market of folks that don't want 46 and even 36 mix sensors. Need to remember too not everyone has that type of horsepower needed in there computers and drives either. Than there are gear sluts like me. Lol
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IMO 20 mp is plenty unless you plan on making a large print. Something that is less and less demand now as the instant gratification generation moves to Facebook, Instagram etc.
I am done with the chase.
Paul
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The geek in me enjoys the A7r's photosite count even though I have no real need for more than ~12mp. Like Erik I've got my eye on the Zeiss Loxias, and am hoping for 28 & 85mm f/2s to complement the existing 35 & 50mms. In the meantime my Y/C mount Zeisses work well on the Sony via adapter, though the 35mm & wider lenses show their film-era limitations at larger apertures. Think I'll wait for the lens lineup, Loxia and otherwise, to fill out a bit more before buying another body.
(I've only seen the negative effects of no EFC shutter when I've deliberately tried to induce 'em. Still, implementing EFC properly will get rid of the issue…a good thing.)
-Dave-
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Hi,
Very clearly, a lot of my best images were shot on 12 MP APS-C. I normally print at A2 (16"x23") size and very good prints are possible from 12 MP. I would share the view that something like 20 MP is enough for A2 size prints, and that is the largest possible from desktop printers and cut sheet paper.
I have a couple of reasons striving for high MP, one reason is that I occasionally print larger than A2. I would feel that 39 MP has benefits printing A1 (23"x33").
The other reason is really making the best use of lenses. If a lens outperforms the sensor the sensor will produce artefacts. Almost any decently build lens outresolves almost any sensor in the center and in point of best focus, thus causing artefacts.
There are four ways around this:
- Add an OLP filter cutting resolution to avoid colour aliasing. Most OLP filters still leave a lot of monochrome aliasing.
- Stop down enough to reduce sharpness enough to avoid aliasing.
- Making the pixels small eough to reduce aliasing.
- Be happy with aliasing and call it microcontrast. Aliasing will always create fake detail, but it may not be obvious, it may just look real. In real world, observers object to colour aliasing.
From my experience it takes around f/16 to get almost aliasing free images on a non OLP filtered 6.8 micron sensor. So from that the largest aliasing free aperture on non OLP filtered 135 full frame sensors would be:
| MP | Pixel pitch | Aliasing free aperture |
| 24MP | 6 | f/14 |
| 36 | 4.7 | f/11 |
| 54 | 3.8 | f/9 |
Now, almost all 24x36 and APS-C sensors are OLP filtered, up to 24 MP. Tendency is to drop OLP filtering at 36 MP for full frame and at 24MP for APS-C.
Attached is a screen dump of two images I shot yesterday, the second row is downscaled, note that downscaling introduces aliasing, too. The resizing was done in Image Magick (left) and Photoshop (right)
| 6.8 micron non OLP | 3.8 micron (OLP?) |
3.8 Micron
Image Magick | 3.8 Micron
Photoshop |
My take is that small pixels are necessary for correct rendition with good lenses. But, admittedly, this may play a lesser role in real world photography. On the other hand, why buy expensive lenses if we don't make best use of them?
Best regards
Erik
IMO 20 mp is plenty unless you plan on making a large print. Something that is less and less demand now as the instant gratification generation moves to Facebook, Instagram etc.
I am done with the chase.
Paul
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Putting some excellent native glass out there is IMO still the main thing for Sony.
I own the 35mm and the 55m and the Voigtländer M-adapter but on the road switching between native lenses and adapter is not very convenient.
The 55mm is very good, very sharp but a bit too neutral and clinical and lacking in the look and character department.
The 35mm is good, not as good as the 55mm but better than most people give it credit for.
Before I add an A7RII there would need to be more quality glass available.
Besides that I like my current A7s very much although a mark II with 18 or 24 MP and improved battery life would also be very nice.
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Putting some excellent native glass out there is IMO still the main thing for Sony.
I own the 35mm and the 55m and the Voigtländer M-adapter but on the road switching between native lenses and adapter is not very convenient.
Before I add an A7RII there would need to be more quality glass available.
Personally I don't see any great inconvenience in changing between a native lens and an adapted lens. I take the lens and the adapter off/fit it on in one piece.
The road map is out there and hopefully it'll be added to. Yes, the number of native lenses is a bit limiting but it's a new system. Look at MFT, they started with just a couple of lenses and now there's how many? Hopefully the Sony A7 series will expend too and 2 or 3 years it could well be a very nice system.
At the moment I only have two native lenses, the 28-70mm kit lens and the 55mm. To date I use my Minolta Rokkors mostly.
And on another note... the Sony A7 lenses mostly seem to be very high quality and personally I'd like to see a few more humble options. For example I was very happy with my (non Art) Sigma 50 and 85mm f1.4's and if lenses of that sort of quality could me made a little more compact I'd be very happy as personally I don't need lenses which are amongst the best mass market lenses on sale and that seems to be what Sony are currently aiming to supply.
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I have the A mount 85mm f1.4 and the LA Ea4 adapter (?) and am quit happy with the results from this setup, although in a perfect world an E mount native would be easier to use, as this combo is by far the heaviest of my lenses to use with the A7R etc.
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Putting some excellent native glass out there is IMO still the main thing for Sony.
................snip.........
Besides that I like my current A7s very much although a mark II with 18 or 24 MP and improved battery life would also be very nice.
I agree though I think it would be nice if Sony would up the build quality.
For the price of the A7s it should have the build quality of the omd em-1 and better autofocus for tracking, along with the 5 axis stabilization.
Then I'll buy em, two, maybe more.
For a company that everyone oohs and ahhs over their sensors they need to rent a 70d and try the live view autofocus for video.
Get to to the functional level and actually the same build quality of the Canon, cause a 70d cost like $700.
While i'm on it an S log that doesn't just work at high iso and a touch screen.
Sony's Zeiss A glass is great, they just need the camera to catch up.
The F4 E class kind of leaves me cold for video, but for stills the FE lenses seem like a good deal.
IMO
BC
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I agree though I think it would be nice if Sony would up the build quality.
For the price of the A7s it should have the build quality of the omd em-1 and better autofocus for tracking, along with the 5 axis stabilization.
Then I'll buy em, two, maybe more.
For a company that everyone oohs and ahhs over their sensors they need to rent a 70d and try the live view autofocus for video.
Get to to the functional level and actually the same build quality of the Canon, cause a 70d cost like $700.
While i'm on it an S log that doesn't just work at high iso and a touch screen.
Sony's Zeiss A glass is great, they just need the camera to catch up.
The F4 E class kind of leaves me cold for video, but for stills the FE lenses seem like a good deal.
IMO
BC
The build quality doesn't really disturb me although I also agree, for a $2.5K camera it wouldn't hurt to be slightly better. Hopefully with the next iteration.
I have no experience with A-mount glass. I read some of it is very good, so I am optimistic for the new lenses. Up till now I quite frankly prefer Fuji X glass to the FE glass
Initially I was struggling a bit with the handling and ergonomics of the camera, being used to the simplicity of Leica and Fuji X. It is better now and not an issue anymore.
I use Capture One as a raw converter. It is better than Iridient and I tend to not use and like LR. Also for Fuji X version 8 of Capture One is a significant improvement and pretty much as good as Iridient now.
Joris.