Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: tsjanik on December 06, 2014, 02:55:02 pm
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I've dealt with clogs in my 4900 before. I have the service program and cleaning solutions for the head station from AIS. I have some unusual results this time. I had a few blocked nozzles in VLM. I tried a normal clean using the printer, this resulted in blockage of about 90% of VLM. I let the printer rest overnight with cleaning solution in the docking head. A few VLM nozzles returned, so I tried a C2 clean using the service program; this caused a complete blockage of VLM. Why would cleanings increase the blockage? Any experience with this problem?
Tom
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I've dealt with clogs in my 4900 before. I have the service program and cleaning solutions for the head station from AIS. I have some unusual results this time. I had a few blocked nozzles in VLM. I tried a normal clean using the printer, this resulted in blockage of about 90% of VLM. I let the printer rest overnight with cleaning solution in the docking head. A few VLM nozzles returned, so I tried a C2 clean using the service program; this caused a complete blockage of VLM. Why would cleanings increase the blockage? Any experience with this problem?
Tom
Tom, the short answer is NO. The longer is that I routinely experience what are called "clogs" from my Epson 4900. I put "clogs" in " ", because whether they really are clogs or something else is a legitimate question. The only thing we know for sure is that the test pattern comes out with gaps in one or more channels. I don't have the service program and I don't have AIS fluid. I clean, run a print that exercises all channels, run a check - if still not clean, do another clean, run another print, run another check. If after two such cycles it is still not clean, repeat the cycle but this time with Powerful Clean for the affacted channel pair. I've never needed to run more than four such cycles to get back to normal. Epson ProGraphics recommended this approach " clean then print" cycles to me years ago when I was suffering the same woes with the 4000 and to a lesser extent the 4800 and now the 4900. It has not failed me - yet. Are you aware of this procedure? Have you "been there done that" before resorting to the more exotic options?
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Thanks for the reply Mark. I left some details out, yes I did try clean and print a few times prior to the last cleaning. I got the service program and the AIS fluid last year when I had a troublesome PK block that did not respond to the clean/print cycle; that combination eventually worked for me, but I don't recall a cleaning resulting in complete blockage of a channel.
Tom
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Hi Tom, OK that clarifies the context. And yes, I have experienced cleaning that blanks a channel. But it has always come back after several cycles. Have you called Epson ProGraphics to discuss it? That part is free regardless of warranty status.
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No I haven't called. I was confident that I could clear this based on my previous experience, but again, I've never seen a clean increase blockage. I'll try a few more clean/print cycles and if that doesn't work I'll call next week.
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a complete or partial channel loss is not a "clog", it is air in the line! ... possibly a bad cart seal or a very low cart causing depressurization of the system. You have ink starvation happening ;-) Forget the cleaning solutions they won't help in this situation!!!!
Try a new cart!
This happens ESPECIALLY if you continuously clean without running prints,, or do power cleans and cause a back suction in the head.
These printers do not differentiate a 'clog' from a 'lack of ink' ! A few missing lines or a deflection on a nozzle test pattern is a clog or a nozzle blockage on the exterior of the nozzle.
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Asa David says, this is likely air entrainment rather than a clog, and I have seen cleaning worsen drop-out in a nozzle check. This continues to occur from time to time on our 9900. I do find that printing a file that strongly exercises the ink channel in question, occasionally coupled wit a Powerful Clean of the affected pair has worked. For superstitious reasons, I've also ejected and reseated the ink cart in question.
Much has been said about the fact the clogs, and air entrainment, mimic the same symptoms on this 900 series. I think I have confused the two many times, and probably even returned a 4900 because I made the wrong diagnosis.
John Caldwell
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Ink starvation/air entrapment would seem to explain why cleaning cycles worsen the situation. My VLM cart is half full, but who knows about the seal. I'll order and try a new one. Thanks for the tips.
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Forgot to say: I think a hallmark of air vs. clog is when nozzle checks show a missing nozzle to jump around between checks or cleanings. A clog, as I understand it, won't change nozzle location on the head.
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Forgot to say: I think a hallmark of air vs. clog is when nozzle checks show a missing nozzle to jump around between checks or cleanings. A clog, as I understand it, won't change nozzle location on the head.
Could also be surface dirt moving around. It only takes tiny, tiny specs.
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Ink starvation/air entrapment would seem to explain why cleaning cycles worsen the situation. My VLM cart is half full, but who knows about the seal. I'll order and try a new one. Thanks for the tips.
Possibly, and this is why Epson recommends running prints between cleanings. But you say you've done all that - hence why I recommend you call ProGraphics first, before putting more time and money into it. If the cartridge is defective they may send you a free new one.
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a complete or partial channel loss is not a "clog", it is air in the line! ... possibly a bad cart seal or a very low cart causing depressurization of the system. You have ink starvation happening ;-) Forget the cleaning solutions they won't help in this situation!!!!
Try a new cart!
This happens ESPECIALLY if you continuously clean without running prints,, or do power cleans and cause a back suction in the head.
These printers do not differentiate a 'clog' from a 'lack of ink' ! A few missing lines or a deflection on a nozzle test pattern is a clog or a nozzle blockage on the exterior of the nozzle.
I think this is very possible, but not 100% certain. Usually running prints would force the air out, but Tom says he's done that. Low carts should not cause depressurization. The system is made to keep printing until the "out of ink" notice flashes up. It says so in the manual. Also, hard to imagine how a cart would become depressurized if it's just been sitting in the printer under normal use. I think a thorough discussion with Epson ProGraphics is really indicated.
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Well my VLM has completely returned. I called Epson and the rep suggested a $1200 service call. I called again, having learned previously that there is a huge variation in response from the reps and was given a phone number of an Epson service center. He suggested they might have an idea on how to treat a complete drop out. When I called the center said they don't work on x900 series. So I went back to clean, print, soak and wait. Absolutely no improvement. Since I have the service program and little to lose at that point, I tried the initial fill command. It worked. I have seen that suggested in some of the threads here. My waste tank is nearly full and I need three new carts, but the printer is working - for now anyway. ;D
Tom
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1200 dollar service call? Kinda obscene.
All the more glad to hear you got it back working. And I think this story is important. If the initial fill command worked, it would suggest the initial problem was not a clog, but something to do with air traps or pressurization, and if initial fill clears that up, it's golden. Some ink goes into the tank, but not 1200 bucks worth, and I think most of the ink used for an initial fill stays in the tubes it fills.
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Yes Mark, air in the line seems a reasonable explanation. Why a regular clean would have caused this is another question. I'm confident that Epson has a lot of data concerning clogs/blocks, yet they don't share it with their users. I have been very disappointed in Epson support; I've found every solution to my problems on forums or from 3rd party ink suppliers, but not from Epson.
I will be getting a larger printer, but this incident is really pushing me towards Canon. Then again, I'm acquiring a lot of experience clearing Epsons. The devil that you know. :)
Tom
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Yes Mark, air in the line seems a reasonable explanation. Why a regular clean would have caused this is another question. I'm confident that Epson has a lot of data concerning clogs/blocks, yet they don't share it with their users. I have been very disappointed in Epson support; I've found every solution to my problems on forums or from 3rd party ink suppliers, but not from Epson.
I will be getting a larger printer, but this incident is really pushing me towards Canon. Then again, I'm acquiring a lot of experience clearing Epsons. The devil that you know. :)
Tom
I have zero doubt Epson knows everything there is to know about how these printers work and don't work. It would be inconceivable to think otherwise. BUT what they are willing to share is another matter. Recall, this is competitive market (in which they are the dominant player), so they aren't going to put out information that could erode their market share and give their competitors information they shouldn't have. Furthermore, their lawyers and technicians have probably determined very carefully what procedures they consider it safe to put into the hands of consumers without risk of having people who try more complicated things on their advice, mess it up and then turn around and sue them. I'm not trying to defend this, I'm just explaining what is highly likely to be driving what they tell us and don' tell us, recommend and don't recommend. It's most likely a corporate policy mindset and these things don't get shaken loose easily.
All that said, I find it disappointing to hear that advice from tech support has been less useful than what we can learn in these forums. That may well be the above-mentioned constraint at work. I hope it isn't a case of support standards slipping, because I have to say, I've had a lot to do with ProGraphics support over the years (yes, mainly dealing with "clogs") and they have been generally very helpful. On my 4900 - must be run with real prints every three days at a minimum, otherwise there are gaps in the nozzle check and cleaning is needed. The day before yesterday I needed to POWER clean and print the Cyan channel four times before I got a clean bill of health from the nozzle check, and that was on account of leaving the printer idle for 5 days. My bad - I just didn't get around to it. Unfortunately, the x900 printers need baby-sitting. In my case, I don't think Canon makes a 17 inch model that will deliver the IQ of a 4900, so regardless I'm staying put. Most of the time it's fine. And knowing the initial fill trick could well come in handy one of these days. Many thanks for that.
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I have zero doubt Epson knows everything there is to know about how these printers work and don't work. It would be inconceivable to think otherwise. BUT what they are willing to share is another matter. Recall, this is competitive market (in which they are the dominant player), so they aren't going to put out information that could erode their market share and give their competitors information they shouldn't have. Furthermore, their lawyers and technicians have probably determined very carefully what procedures they consider it safe to put into the hands of consumers without risk of having people who try more complicated things on their advice, mess it up and then turn around and sue them. I'm not trying to defend this, I'm just explaining what is highly likely to be driving what they tell us and don' tell us, recommend and don't recommend. It's most likely a corporate policy mindset and these things don't get shaken loose easily.
All that said, I find it disappointing to hear that advice from tech support has been less useful than what we can learn in these forums. That may well be the above-mentioned constraint at work. I hope it isn't a case of support standards slipping, because I have to say, I've had a lot to do with ProGraphics support over the years (yes, mainly dealing with "clogs") and they have been generally very helpful. On my 4900 - must be run with real prints every three days at a minimum, otherwise there are gaps in the nozzle check and cleaning is needed. The day before yesterday I needed to POWER clean and print the Cyan channel four times before I got a clean bill of health from the nozzle check, and that was on account of leaving the printer idle for 5 days. My bad - I just didn't get around to it. Unfortunately, the x900 printers need baby-sitting. In my case, I don't think Canon makes a 17 inch model that will deliver the IQ of a 4900, so regardless I'm staying put. Most of the time it's fine. And knowing the initial fill trick could well come in handy one of these days. Many thanks for that.
Mark, I understand all that you're saying, but supplying information that deals with the clogging issues with Epson printers would strengthen their market share. It's a real problem which they should acknowledge and offer solutions. The output of these printers is remarkable, but the internet is filled with customer frustration. It would be unfortunate that behavior is evolving into that which has avoiding litigation as a primary concern.
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Glad to hear this, I said it earlier... "a complete or partial channel loss is not a "clog", it is air in the line! ... possibly a bad cart seal or a very low cart causing depressurization of the system. You have ink starvation happening ;-) Forget the cleaning solutions they won't help in this situation!!!!"
I have been thinking that the entire channel loss problem and not being able to bring it back precisely resembles having to prime a pump , before fluid can actually be drawn and flow...it appears that is exactly what a initial fill accomplishes ;-)
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Mark, I understand all that you're saying, but supplying information that deals with the clogging issues with Epson printers would strengthen their market share. It's a real problem which they should acknowledge and offer solutions. The output of these printers is remarkable, but the internet is filled with customer frustration. It would be unfortunate that behavior is evolving into that which has avoiding litigation as a primary concern.
Tom, the internet usually collects the bad news. The good news one doesn't often hear about, so I wouldn't rely on the internet as a reliable barometer of the frustration level. For every complaint on the internet there could be hundreds if not thousands of satisfied users. It depends how the machine is used, and in all machinery, some failure rate is normal (you just don't want it to happen to you.) Avoiding litigation is a real primary concern of every corporate environment I've ever come across. So they tend to be ultra-conservative. Maybe there's a better way of dealing with a certain class of customer, but it hasn't been forthcoming. We'll have to live with that I'm afraid. But I agree, it would be good to have more user-controlled service options available for handling these situations if a mutually satisfactory way of doing it could be devised. I have no idea to what extent Epson has considered this.
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I have zero doubt Epson knows everything there is to know about how these printers work and don't work. It would be inconceivable to think otherwise. BUT what they are willing to share is another matter. Recall, this is competitive market (in which they are the dominant player), so they aren't going to put out information that could erode their market share and give their competitors information they shouldn't have.
Mark, I think you may want to have a look at this. (http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS24690414) I would have thought that they were first or second. Nope, third. - Jim
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Mark, I think you may want to have a look at this. (http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS24690414) I would have thought that they were first or second. Nope, third. - Jim
Hi Jim,
My comment was focused on the inkjet/graphics printer market, not all technical printers of which there are many kinds. I should have been more specific. Anyhow, in your referenced article, in respect of the graphics printing market they say "Epson ranked third in the overall technical market and continued as the leader of the graphics applications segment, with more than double the share of the next competitor,....." Anyhow, the more competitive it is the better for us consumers.
Cheers,
Mark
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I found out that the pump unit, damper and wiper (comes in one piece) should be replaced every two or latest three years!
http://www.inkjetmall.com/tech/showthread.php?352-epson-4900-serviceable-parts
http://compassmicro.com/parts_detail.cfm?ID=6811&form.mfg=Epson&form.printerstyle=Inkjet&form.printername=Stylus%20Pro%204900
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Mine is over three years old and it's just fine. Furthermore Epson does not advise this as a routine maintenance procedure, so I would not accept it uncritically. Personally, I wouldn't replace any parts for the sake of it because some website recommends it. My philosophy is replace the part if the performance of the printer and the analysis of the problems indicates that being the cause.
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There is no point in replacing the pump assembly unless it is the cause of the problems. The typical symptom is lack of ink to most nozzles and colors, and cleaning results in little ink consumption and little ink to the maintenance tank.
When replacing the pump the wiper unit is included, but it can be ordered separately. the wiper can be removed and cleaned on a regular basis, and no need to replace it unless it is damaged or cannot be cleaned. It isn’t very expensive though, so yearly replacement certainly isn’t a big deal. My 3 year old 9900 the wiper is still pristine ... I’ve checked it a couple of times but it doesn’t show any signs of wear.
The dampers are not part of that assembly, but a separate piece. They are part of the head assembly and their main purpose is to bleed air bubbles from the ink delivery system. Dampers can go bad, and the normal symptom is sudden loss of most or all nozzles in one or more colors that don’t seem to respond to any cleans. The damper comes as a unit, and is fairly straightforward to replace, as long as you have access to the Epson service manual and just follow the steps.
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Another thing to consider that I haven't seen mentioned here is the humidity level in the print room. I still get the occasional clog, but not nearly as many nor as bad since I got a humidifier. I have it placed between my 4900 and 9900 and try to keep the level at 40% or more. I only need it over the winter months here in Central Ontario, Canada - very dry in the winter, but it makes all the difference.
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Hello All,
It looks like this topic has perhaps been well covered and the original poster has at last solved his problem with the 4900. Please forgive me for coming here with no particular suggestion to add, although I suffered many a time the woes of the 9900 within my 3 year warranty period. Some of you might recall my early posts(although 3-4 years ago), outlining some of the issues and accompanying service visits from D1. By the end of the warranty period numerous parts had been replaced(some more than once) and the printer has performed very well since, with the help of Eric's muti-volume "service guide". I think we all owe Eric another round at the bar for his endless posts and valuable information shared. However, I do have one request. I seem to recall searching for the "Service Program" for the 9900 a couple of years ago. If memory serves I believe the only version I could find was for a PC, no Mac version then. If anyone can direct me to the download site for the aforementioned program it would be much appreciated. I seem to have also lost that information.
Thank you,
Gary
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Another thing to consider that I haven't seen mentioned here is the humidity level in the print room. I still get the occasional clog, but not nearly as many nor as bad since I got a humidifier. I have it placed between my 4900 and 9900 and try to keep the level at 40% or more. I only need it over the winter months here in Central Ontario, Canada - very dry in the winter, but it makes all the difference.
Hi Mike,
I'm in the GTA and can certainly verify the DRY winters here as well. A couple of years ago I started using a humidifier and in my opinion that has played a big role in the mostly issue free performance of the 9900. Some days the unit struggles to reach and maintain the 40% mark, but I also keep a full container of water between the working end of the printer and the wall and that seems to help as well. I posted a thread recently asking for opinions on reliable hygrometers, since I have three and they all read differently, usually about 10 points variance. I guess the best hygrometer may be the printer itself, since it seems to be happier when the humidifier is working at peak performance and slightly more finiky when it isn't.
Gary
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If anyone can direct me to the download site for the aforementioned program it would be much appreciated. I seem to have also lost that information.
Gary, try this link: http://www.2manuals.com/product_info.php?products_id=1488
Brian.
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Gary, try this link: http://www.2manuals.com/product_info.php?products_id=1488
Brian.
Hi Brian,
Again, PC only.
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Hi Gary,
Yes and the reason you will probably never see a mac version is that this software was written for service techs I doubt that Epson would be willing to finance a port to other platforms given the very small number of authorized techs.
Brian.