Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: tsjanik on November 23, 2014, 04:35:29 pm
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I live in the US and may make a short trip to Japan. I noticed that amazon.jp has the 645Z listed for the equivalent of about $6500 USD and I see the 645Z listed on ebay for $7500 by a Japanese store. Is there any reason I shouldn't purchase a body while in Japan and save $2000 or order from Japan and still save over the US price?
Tom
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What will be the duty cost when bringing into the U.S.? Or will you not have to declare it with customs?
Paul
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Some Japanese brands only offer international warranty for lenses, not sure for Pentax.
Cheers,
Bernard
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What will be the duty cost when bringing into the U.S.? Or will you not have to declare it with customs?
Paul
I've heard of people negating this roadblock by simply shooting 100 or so frame, then shipping the box/extras home separately...
They then fly home with a "used" camera in their possession.
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I bought my 645D in Japan in 2011. The price difference was several thousand dollars, even including customs. I bought it through Mapcamera in Tokyo. Pentax Japan didn't offer an international warranty for it's cameras during that time and I am pretty sure that it will be the same with the new 645z. After 12 months I had a sensor problem with my camera and luckily they exchanged the camera for me, even it was not covered by the warranty.
I also bought several lenses from Japan through ebay and also through Yahoo auctions. Two times I got a lens with fungus inside, even they guaranteed that the lens would be in perfect condition. Due to the humid climate in Japan, I would advise not to buy old Pentax glas from there. There is a seller in Shinjuku who sells a lot of used Pentax glas on ebay. He writes that the lenses are checked by the official Pentax store before he sends them to you. But still he sent me a lens with fungus inside. On the pictures you can see a female model showing the lens. Avoid this guy.
So if you want to be 100% sure that you get a new body, I would buy it directly in Japan or let it send you through a website like whiterabbit.
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Warranty is the only real issue. I bought my 645D from Japan (due to impatience), had a problem, and Pentax Canada graciously covered it - never discussed whether there was warranty coverage or not, but it was definitely at my risk. I have less confidence in Pentax USA, though hopefully I am mistaken.
You would have to pay sales taxes on import, but i am not sure whether there is any duty on cameras. Buying in-country is always preferable, but i understand the the price issue for sure. Just be glad you're not in the EU!
Cheers,
- N.
ps. I used a company called White Rabbit that specializes in Japan-only toys for the procurement and delivery. They were excellent.
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Yes, I think if there is an issue you just send the camera back to the retailer who then negotiates with the manufacturer. Major japanese shops are usually very very reliable people - Warranty service via the retailer used to be the case everywhere in fact. maybe B&H and co don't offer this degree of service anymore in their effort to lower costs.
I think there are no federal customs tariffs on still cameras - you can call customs and ask.
Edmund
I bought my 645D in Japan in 2011. The price difference was several thousand dollars, even including customs. I bought it through Mapcamera in Tokyo. Pentax Japan didn't offer an international warranty for it's cameras during that time and I am pretty sure that it will be the same with the new 645z. After 12 months I had a sensor problem with my camera and luckily they exchanged the camera for me, even it was not covered by the warranty.
I also bought several lenses from Japan through ebay and also through Yahoo auctions. Two times I got a lens with fungus inside, even they guaranteed that the lens would be in perfect condition. Due to the humid climate in Japan, I would advise not to buy old Pentax glas from there. There is a seller in Shinjuku who sells a lot of used Pentax glas on ebay. He writes that the lenses are checked by the official Pentax store before he sends them to you. But still he sent me a lens with fungus inside. On the pictures you can see a female model showing the lens. Avoid this guy.
So if you want to be 100% sure that you get a new body, I would buy it directly in Japan or let it send you through a website like whiterabbit.
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My understanding is that there is no import duty in the U.S. for cameras.
See: http://www.dutycalculator.com/hs-code-duty-rate-import-restrictions/852580/digital-camera/8525.80.4000/8525.80.3000/857/
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Thanks for all the responses. I spent a few hours searching US government sites yesterday, but was unable to find a definitive answer if a duty is imposed on cameras and if so, how much. Duty amounts are calculated by using the Harmonized Tariff System, HTS. My brief experience with it indicates that HTS may be one of the greatest examples of misnomer ever. I did find some advice for US travelers concerning cameras that suggested registering recent domestic camera purchases with Customs prior to leaving the US.
The dutycalculator indicates no duty, but sales tax, which varies by state.
I've submitted a request to White Rabbit. I would be concerned about warranty service, but my impression is that any North American service on these cameras occurs in Japan. I might as well ship directly to Japan rather than ship to Pentax US repair, who in turn ships to Japan.
Tom
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If you buy in Japan, is the manual in Japanese language? I imagine there might be an English manual online.
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I live in the US and may make a short trip to Japan. I noticed that amazon.jp has the 645Z listed for the equivalent of about $6500 USD and I see the 645Z listed on ebay for $7500 by a Japanese store. Is there any reason I shouldn't purchase a body while in Japan and save $2000 or order from Japan and still save over the US price?
Tom
We register all of our equipment with U.S. customs and carry invoices with serial numbers. For larger projects we produce a carnet (you don't or won't need to do this for one camera), though having the receipt at the ready is very good idea.
But in reality, it depends on what airport/city you fly into.
Head a tough time at JFK, even with a carnet, as a agent in training filled in the wrong information and spent an hour with an officer who demanded we pay duty. This went on an on.
LA, usually is easy, though one agent I see all the time and do anything to avoid him as any case that looks like equipment he puts you in the line with all the people importing goods from their native countries.
That is a two hour process and the agent we finally received knew we shouldn't be in that line, she still gave us the complete explanation on how to bring in gear, why duties exist, how . . . . .
So my thought is buy what you want, make a copy of that rule that is linked, be prepared to show you will pay local/state sales tax and hope it sails through, or at the worst hope you get an informed agent.
For repairs, as everyone mentioned, the Japanese retailers and manufacturers are usually very, very good at service. It may be slow at times, but usually spot on.
IMO
BC
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The price gap is astonishing. Similarly on the CFV-50c. Don't think that can last in the age of the internet. Welcome to the age of the $6,000 50MP MFSLR.
- N.
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I was going to wait for a used 645z to so show up on ebay at around 6k before I bought one. The lowest price I have seen so far is $6999. this changes everything. :o
A quick search of Japanese selling sites netted these numbers for new gear:
645Z body from Japan - $6300 US
28-45mm DA645 lens - $4088 US
25mm DA645 lens - $3208 US
This web page was interesting. A list of quite a few nifty camera shops in Tokyo:
http://www.japancamerahunter.com/2013/05/the-complete-tokyo-camera-shopping-guide/
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I'm really not sure that a $2,200 (gross) price spread is worth the hassle and uncertainty of ordering from overseas on a purchase of this magnitude. I think you'll find that with currency exchange, FedEx, procurement fees, etc, the difference rapidly whittles down to $1,500 or less.
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I was going to wait for a used 645z to so show up on ebay at around 6k before I bought one. The lowest price I have seen so far is $6999. this changes everything. :o
A quick search of Japanese selling sites netted these numbers for new gear:
645Z body from Japan - $6300 US
28-45mm DA645 lens - $4088 US
25mm DA645 lens - $3208 US
This web page was interesting. A list of quite a few nifty camera shops in Tokyo:
http://www.japancamerahunter.com/2013/05/the-complete-tokyo-camera-shopping-guide/
It's actually $5916 if you go to map camera with a foreign passport.
Because people with foreign passports don't pay the sales tax.
I think the cheapest way to buy this is to go there in person.
Edmund
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I received a quote from White rabbit - $8000USD + shipping, hardly worth the trouble. There is a Japanese ebay seller at $7500 with free shipping; however, I have to question whether the $1000 saving is worth the potential downsides. Edmund is correct about MAP, the 645Z is around $6000 with a passport. If I go to Japan, I'll buy the camera there, otherwise I'll purchase the camera here.
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I received a quote from White rabbit - $8000USD + shipping, hardly worth the trouble. There is a Japanese ebay seller at $7500 with free shipping; however, I have to question whether the $1000 saving is worth the potential downsides. Edmund is correct about MAP, the 645Z is around $6000 with a passport. If I go to Japan, I'll buy the camera there, otherwise I'll purchase the camera here.
I'm sure Map would ship, and that white rabbit would assist you with translation by email and phone to help arrange a direct sale.
Edmund
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You can buy it from Amazon Japan for $6388, which includes free shipping.
http://www.amazon.co.jp/中判デジタル一眼レフカメラ-645Zボディ-約5140万画素-新型CMOSセンサー-16602/dp/B00JOCVZD6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417106249&sr=8-1&keywords=pentax+645z
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Thanks, I saw that. When you enter a shipping address in the US, you're informed that they cannot ship there :(
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Bernard lives in Tokyo - I'm sure he'd be delighted to buy and send by courier - or even be the courier :)
Edmund
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Great idea. I'm sure Bernard would like to visit the Buffalo, NY area this time of year. A great opportunity to test the white balance of his equipment :D
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Glad to see that you are ready to splurge, Tom. I am sure you won't regret, wherever you buy. Tom
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Hi Tom:
I think it was always a question of when I would buy a 645Z not if, even if I don't admit that to myself. Part of me wishes I'd stayed with film and not boarded the digital upgrade treadmill. ;D
Tom
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Hi Tom:
I think it was always a question of when I would buy a 645Z not if, even if I don't admit that to myself. Part of me wishes I'd stayed with film and not boarded the digital upgrade treadmill. ;D
Tom
I like that visual image ---- The digital upgrade treadmill ---- It brings to mind an image of a photographer chasing a camera being held out in front of him on a string, just out of reach. I am ON it and I want OFF! (sort of)
Digital cameras are now like cell phones, a new one at least every year. But then I think about going back to film, lugging 70 lbs of gear 15 miles through the desert and hoping I got some keepers, rather than KNOWING I have them minutes after the exposure. Leaving film was extremely liberating for me in many ways and my keepers have increased percentage wise and number wise substantially (as have the number of hard drives I keep handy!)
My D800e body is now worth $1400 to maybe $2000 just two years later. Kind of depressing considering that every time I click the shutter I secretly wish it was with a 645z rather than my D800e! ::)
On the other hand if the 645z follows that pattern, losing almost HALF its value in two years for a used one, I should be able to buy a mint condition 645z in the USA two and a half years from now for close to $4000.
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Thanks, I saw that. When you enter a shipping address in the US, you're informed that they cannot ship there :(
Yup, I tried that too with every seller listed. I also contacted some camera shops in Japan and was told they would not ship to the USA.
I have a friend in Japan, willing to buy and ship me a Z. She will have to pay tax on it though, which as I recall was 5%. So a bit over $300, putting the final amount around $6600 with shipping. My 2nd option is a friends company who has offices in Japan and can buy stuff without tax and ship it to the USA, but the question that I have not been able to answer 100% is if there will be any US govt imposed fees or taxes on the gear. One thing you do NOT want to do is ship by UPS or FedEx (Not totally sure on FedEx) as they charge ridiculously high customs brokerage fees. Ship by Mail, no brokerage fees, although there might be insurance claim issues when sent by mail.
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Ok, so I tried to see if I could get a deal on the Alibaba website and here's a response I got from a gent in Denmark:
Richy Davids
Please Contact tradenowlimited @gmail.com Free Member
Denmark
RE: Price inquiry from D. Shelly in United States
The Pentax 645Z Medium Format Digital SLR Camera Body Cost $4,900USD each
Please Contact us via our email address or skype:
EMAIL : [email protected]
SKYPE NAME : trade.now1
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Ok, so I tried to see if I could get a deal on the Alibaba website and here's a response I got from a gent in Denmark:
Richy Davids
Please Contact tradenowlimited @gmail.com Free Member
Denmark
RE: Price inquiry from D. Shelly in United States
The Pentax 645Z Medium Format Digital SLR Camera Body Cost $4,900USD each
Please Contact us via our email address or skype:
EMAIL : [email protected]
SKYPE NAME : trade.now1
I don't know if they are reputable, but this sounds like the right discounted-to-the-bone price.
The price which B&H would be selling at, if they hadn't put everyone else out of business.
Edmund
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DShelly,
That's a scam. That's below Pentax's cost. Wave off.
- N.
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DShelly,
That's a scam. That's below Pentax's cost. Wave off.
- N.
Nick -
I agree it may be a scam.
However that's about 20% below the *sales* price of Map Camera, and so it sounds close to the wholesale price but not necessarily below it. If Pentax or one of their wholesalers want to log a year-end sales bump, they'll clear out any spare inventory to anyone who can pay.
I don't think it's below Pentax's "cost", which if you just factor in the marginal, incremental cost of materials and assembly salaries I would expect to be well under $1.5K, certainly less than $2K. This doesn't of course factor in R&D, the costs of setting up production, provisions for service costs, and the major political contributions that may be required to keep any company afloat (see Olympus). The biggest parts cost here is the sensor from Sony, but I would expect that prices here would gradually fall as Sony's design costs, masks etc are amortized, thereby permitting a very significant price drop towards the end of the model life. High margin electronics is a good business to be in, as Apple is demonstrating every day. The low end is a different story.
Edmund
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Has anyone actually purchased the 645Z at those low prices? anyone?
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Here's the email I got from the Alibaba vendor (see below) for the Pentax 645z. I'm skeptical in that he notes a website to check out that's simply a holding page with no credible info or products for sale. He's also not a "Verified" vendor for Alibaba. The guy suggested that I use Money Gram as a way to securely buy the product. I've never used Money Gram, but I read some bad online reviews about their customer service. I think the only way I would consider buying from him is if we did a "Payment upon Delivery" set up.
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Hello,
Thanks for your mail.
We are Apple Electronics Limited,we sell mobile phones,tv's,laptops,Digital Camera,Musical Instruments,TV's Etc.
You can check some information about us on the below website: http://appleelectronics.com/
Please revert back so we can feed you with any other information needed.
We hope by now you can trust us and at least have some knowledge about whom you are dealing with?..
Best Regards
-------------
Also, I heard from another Alibaba vendor who claims he can sell me the camera for the grand ol' price of 2000 USD LOL. This guy is located in the United States. His profile has zero information on his location, website, company, or phone number. He has just an email. There is a section where you can send an email to get all his information.
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Has anyone actually purchased the 645Z at those low prices? anyone?
The Yodobashi and MapCamera prices cited above are from very established bricks and mortar retailers.
Yododbashi is probably larger than B&H in the US. You can go there and get just about *anything* japanese.
Edmund
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Prices too good to be true remind me of a Gary Larson cartoon:
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Dhelley,
Why don't you go halvesies with eronald on a $4000 645z, but order it through me instead. That was you can be guaranteed that the box will arrive in pristine condition. With nothing inside.
- N.
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Dhelley,
Why don't you go halvesies with eronald on a $4000 645z, but order it through me instead. That was you can be guaranteed that the box will arrive in pristine condition. With nothing inside.
- N.
Frankly, I'm surprised that no US dealer will provide a decent price on this product. Usually US prices are roughly aligned with Japanese ones. A decent local dealer is valuable, but probably not worth $4K :)
Edmund
Edmund
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Edmund is correct about MAP, the 645Z is around $6000 with a passport.
B&H offer a worldwide delivery service, all taxes and import duties of the destination country paid & guaranteed.
MAP price is $6,000
B&H price is $8,499
Based on the B&H price, taxes and delivery, in addition to the $8,499 would be
UK / France $1,827
Italy - $2,004
If based on the MAP price of $6,000 they would in all likelihood be less, particularly as B&H most probably include a 10% 'safety margin'. UPS Worldwide, 3-5 day delivery is $137 (included in the b&H price).
So, cost of a 645z EU delivered , is probably $7,500 - $8,000 all duties and taxes paid. A saving of $2,500-$3,000. USA about $1,000 less.
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On a cam as 'substantial' as the 645z, don't think it's even worth considering the other options mentioned so far.
Suspect that Pentax may well be viewing this as a 'pilot scheme', waiting to see what the take-up factor is. They've made no secret of their preference to centralise their ops (in Japan) and yes, you need to send the cam back to Japan if you need service or repair - but then you've got to do the same with Leica - so it's not necessarily a deal breaker.
Add to the above that the Yen has devalued by almost 22% since August, if the demand picks up it's a 'win-win' situation . 'Win' because boxes shipped&sold increase and 'win' because Yen revenue will be up - cross elasticity of demand at work.
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So, cost of a 645z EU delivered , is probably $7,500 - $8,000 all duties and taxes paid. A saving of $2,500-$3,000. USA about $1,000 less.
List price UK body only is £6,799 = $8587 I don't see a saving of $2,500-$3,000 ?
http://shop-uk.ricoh-imaging.eu/kameras/medium-format-digital/pentax-645-z.html
http://www.calphoto.co.uk/category/pentax645z?gclid=CKHO9-SRqMICFQ6WtAodEzcAqw
Prices quoted by me include UK VAT, reclaimable by a VAT registered business (20%)
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List price UK body only is £6,799 = $8587 I don't see a saving of $2,500-$3,000 ?
If you can reclaim VAT, ( and charge depreciation against tax) it obviously makes the differences relatively minor ( less than 500gbp / $800) and hardly worth the aggravation. I looked at it from the pov of an amateur, not a pro. Also in the US , it's relatively easy to avoid sales tax, just have the cam posted to an address out of state.
If the yen continues it's decline though, that may still be reflected, at some point, with reduced 'pro' pricing on both continents. 22% is a big move. Probably more to come.
M
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List price UK body only is £6,799 = $8587 I don't see a saving of $2,500-$3,000 ?
£/$ =1.56 at today's rates. Maybe you could do your sums again? Or maybe I'm missing something?
Edmund
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Don't do sums, I'm not a techie ;D, stuck it in an online converter, maybe a different dollar? ;D
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Well, I am almost ready to buy one from Japan. My friend (wanting to buy the 28-45mm for himself) has a co-worker who is traveling to Japan and he is willing to purchase and then ship or carry some gear back to him. (Carry back preferred but then you are at the mercy of the customs snivel servants. Everything I am reading says no duty on camera gear from Japan. Fingers crossed.....
$6188.23 - Current price quote in Yen from several shops = ¥751,900
Final price - $5569.407 -- Less Sales tax @ 10% (No tax charged if he shows his passport at time of purchase as noted previously by Edmund)
Trying to figure out if there is a fully insured shipping option available that does not have to go through a customs brokerage like UPS / FedEx does.
Tenso.com will ship it for a modest fee but they say nothing about insurance against lost / damage.
I looked at the Japan EMS web site. Shipping plus insurance runs under $60 US if I calculated everything right.
Curious as to how good they are with claims for lost or damaged packages. I know from experience that UPS and FedEx cover your six. USPS is hit and miss.
Have any of you dealt with insurance claims through EMS Japan? My guess is that since the last link in the chain is the US Postal Service, if the package is lost you may never see your money again. I had a package sent to me from Australia and it was lost. The US Post Office offered me 4 cents on the dollar as payment for insurance coverage? That was over 15 years ago so I don't know if that is still how it goes with the USPS.
Going to check with FedEx and see what the total bill would be for them if this fellow can't or won't carry the gear back with him.
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If you can find a shop that gives "points" (typically 10%), you can come back the next day and get the lens with the points deducted. And then you get points again for the cash balance involved in the lens purchase etc. which should pay easily for a couple of batteries, maybe a cheap lens ...
Also, there are a couple of times a year when you get awarded double points for a walk in purchase.
In your case, after points, the Yodobashi price of 835 000 Y matches the Map camera price, so to get a perfect comparison you'd need to factor in the lens and the points of the lens ... it's a very japanese game :) Yodobashi and Map are both well known outlets, Yodobashi's retail presence as an electronics hypermart in Tokyo is of course physically much larger than B&H. Map seem to be a very specialised store, I have found articles online where company execs present their wares at Map. There are other big camera chain stores, and probably some hard discounters to be found as well.
Map awards points, but mostly for used gear, it seems. Yodobashi on everything. However you should be aware that *negotiation is often possible* to some extent for such a purchase, yielding at the very least some accessories as "service". It may also be useful to preorder a rare item.You might ask White Rabbit or Bernard or someone else who speaks japanese for a couple of hours of on-site help, and pay as you would for a camera assistant as equipment purchase is often a camera assistant's job.Also, I would recommend carry, not ship. In fact I think carry may be necessary as the items are listed in the buyers passport.
Last not least, at a specialist store, the salesman who makes the sale will give you his card, and (s)he will be helpful and diligent if contacted for after-sales requests.
Edmund
Well, I am almost ready to buy one from Japan. My friend (wanting to buy the 28-45mm for himself) has a co-worker who is traveling to Japan and he is willing to purchase and then ship or carry some gear back to him. (Carry back preferred but then you are at the mercy of the customs snivel servants. Everything I am reading says no duty on camera gear from Japan. Fingers crossed.....
$6188.23 - Current price quote in Yen from several shops = ¥751,900
Final price - $5569.407 -- Less Sales tax @ 10% (No tax charged if he shows his passport at time of purchase as noted previously by Edmund)
Trying to figure out if there is a fully insured shipping option available that does not have to go through a customs brokerage like UPS / FedEx does.
Tenso.com will ship it for a modest fee but they say nothing about insurance against lost / damage.
I looked at the Japan EMS web site. Shipping plus insurance runs under $60 US if I calculated everything right.
Curious as to how good they are with claims for lost or damaged packages. I know from experience that UPS and FedEx cover your six. USPS is hit and miss.
Have any of you dealt with insurance claims through EMS Japan? My guess is that since the last link in the chain is the US Postal Service, if the package is lost you may never see your money again. I had a package sent to me from Australia and it was lost. The US Post Office offered me 4 cents on the dollar as payment for insurance coverage? That was over 15 years ago so I don't know if that is still how it goes with the USPS.
Going to check with FedEx and see what the total bill would be for them if this fellow can't or won't carry the gear back with him.
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Thanks Edmund. Some great info.
Don
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Gents,
You can purchase the camera from BuySmartJapan and save approximately $2000 US.
Search their website and check the current prices.
There is a service fee and you will receive the camera in approximately 3 business days.
I purchased my 645 DA lenses via BuySmartJapan.
Take care,
Mike
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My understanding is that there is no import duty in the U.S. for cameras.
See: http://www.dutycalculator.com/hs-code-duty-rate-import-restrictions/852580/digital-camera/8525.80.4000/8525.80.3000/857/
I called US customs in New York to ask about this because I am thinking of getting into MF, but live overseas. I didn't want to get hit with a huge duty if I ever went to the US. The guy I spoke with (James Tresman) said that the MF camera I was looking at used the code 8525.80.4000 and is duty free. When I looked that up online, it said that for HTS CODE | Harmonized Tariff Schedule 8525.80.4000 items from the Netherlands, there was no duty but that sales tax is 21%. What is confusing to me is that 21% is the VAT I pay here, so I don't know if it refers to the local sales tax in the Netherlands (already paid) or an additional sales tax payable in the US.
AP
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Anyone tried Bic Camera with a Visa Card? Visa has this promo
http://www.visa-news.jp/visitjapan/i-merchant/01bic.html
http://www.visa-news.jp/visitjapan/en/i-merchant/bic/
5% off + return of sales tax + special gift offered with any Visa card purchase.
*Valid only for those who fulfill the conditions for tax-free shopping. Presentation of passport required.
- Limited to purchases ￥10,527 (tax excl.) or more on tax-free item in one day.
- For more information on tax-free shopping, please ask store staff.
*Special gift is offered only during the following periods: Chinese New Year - Cherry blossom season (February-April), Summer Holidays (August), National Day of China - End of the year (October-December)
Special gifts are available while stocks last.
Amazon.co.jp now has it for US$6,193 (742,335 yen)
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I got a reply from BIC CAMERA WEST SHINJYUKU STORE, 2F Camera Cornner.
Pentax 645Z KIT 710,452yen (price from date 4/24)
Comes out as US$5,954 per this moment's Forex.
Based on the price I assume this is body-only.
The above mentioned price is the final price after VISA card is used and and Tax-free refund is applied.
VISA card promo is good until the end of April. I assume pricing is universal to all BIC CAMERA branches.
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Some US retailers are selling the 645Z for $1k less than B&H with US warranty. What I found interesting after opening my USA 645Z is that Pentax US is actually extending their service on the 645Z to 2 years from 1 year.
If there is any interest in buying a US camera, just PM me. I am not affiliated with any dealers, I am a consumer.
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bhphotovideo is doing a deal if you buy the pentax 645z it comes free with the 55mm dfa 2.8. for 8500 bucks. i checked on ebay and the cheapest pentax 645z from japan is about 7200 bucks and then a brand new 55mm is 800 bucks. so for 8000 you can get that set for 500 bucks less then bhphotovideo here in the us. I would love to buy a brand new pentax 645z at those lower costs you guys were talking about lol. 5-6k is insane.