Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: deejjjaaaa on November 20, 2014, 09:13:23 am
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Sony A7 II and IBIS in Sony dSLMs
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/5893009647/sony-announces-alpha-7-ii-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-with-5-axis-is
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/full-sony-a7m2-english-features-descirption-and-new-image-samples/
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-a77i-officialy-announced-in-japan/
finally a close to normal grip !
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Finally IBIS! Hoping for a R version with EFCS. That's my next camera I think :-)
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Any word if they damped & quietened that insanely noisy shutter?
it quite spoils the A7R, and according to many causes camera shake.
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Any word if they damped & quietened that insanely noisy shutter?
it quite spoils the A7R, and according to many causes camera shake.
A7 had it quiter (albeit not a whisper like) then A7r to start with and this is A7 line (mkII) camera... as for electronic rolling shutter as in A7s - I did not see anything about that... probably 24mp sensor is still the same old variety as in current 24mp cameras with minor tweaks in toppings
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The a7r has excess shutter vibration (one reason I sold mine some time ago), but the a7 does not (although both shutters are somewhat noisy).
They both have pseudo 14-bit images and the raw files are lossy (as opposed to lossless) compressed - two very questionable (aka 'stupid' some might say, .. like me) decisions by Sony. I hope that this A7II model (as well as future cameras such as the rumored higher mp a9) does true 14-bit image processing and outputs a losslessly compressed raw file.
The A7II has a beefed up lens mount, the EVF is said to show the steadying effects of the IBIS, and there are numerous video enhancements, among other improvements.
This could be a really super camera!
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the EVF is said to show the steadying effects of the IBIS
any EVF will show IS effect by definition... you can't really start IS operation after the shutter release - otherwise it will increase the lag to the actual exposure start and you can't keep IS on all the time - dSLMs do not have big battaries... so by defintion you will see in any EVF IBIS effect (image starts to stabilize when you for example halfpress the shutter release) if camera has IBIS.. unlike OVF
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I would be nice if Sony in between bodies could release a few new FE primes as well...
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I would be nice if Sony in between bodies could release a few new FE primes as well...
I've been stoked on this system for a year and can't make myself by it, because there are too many things missing.
This gets it closer, but if Sony want's a check I really need (not want).
A7s
video
5 axis stablization
10 bit 422, 200mbs minimum.
good sound preamps and shielding.
tracking focus like a 70d
touch screen focus like a 70d.
hdmi out for monitor or recorder that locks
A7 or A7R
5 axis stabilization (got it on one now)
good medium iso.
good color response and less compression on raws.
track focusing (real 1dx quality track focus)
robust still tethering to a computer.
If they do it, I'll buy the cameras, the lenses, even the little plastic stuff everyone sells.
IMO
BC
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The a7r has excess shutter vibration (one reason I sold mine some time ago), but the a7 does not (although both shutters are somewhat noisy).
They both have pseudo 14-bit images and the raw files are lossy (as opposed to lossless) compressed - two very questionable (aka 'stupid' some might say, .. like me) decisions by Sony. I hope that this A7II model (as well as future cameras such as the rumored higher mp a9) does true 14-bit image processing and outputs a losslessly compressed raw file.
The A7II has a beefed up lens mount, the EVF is said to show the steadying effects of the IBIS, and there are numerous video enhancements, among other improvements.
This could be a really super camera!
I've been mystified by their using a lossy algorithm to produce 11 bit files. Or rather, by their making compression obligatory for the user.
My impression is that they must be pretty committed to doing things this way, as I believe in the A7s files are compressed. And they cannot be very large to start with.
Otherwise, it's an attractive camera.
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I've been stoked on this system for a year and can't make myself by it, because there are too many things missing.
This gets it closer, but if Sony want's a check I really need (not want).
A7s
video
5 axis stablization
10 bit 422, 200mbs minimum.
good sound preamps and shielding.
tracking focus like a 70d
touch screen focus like a 70d.
hdmi out for monitor or recorder that locks
A7 or A7R
5 axis stabilization (got it on one now)
good medium iso.
good color response and less compression on raws.
track focusing (real 1dx quality track focus)
robust still tethering to a computer.
If they do it, I'll buy the cameras, the lenses, even the little plastic stuff everyone sells.
IMO
BC
My wish list for the A7s is probably more modest: slight more malleable file in post of about 18MP, fast 21, 28 and 35mm lenses and significantly improved battery life.
The ergonomics of the Sony are not like Leica or Fuji IMO but you get used to it pretty quickly.
Sony will get there I believe. After all the system is only a year old... This is already the 4th A7 body in slightly over a year...
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any EVF will show IS effect by definition... you can't really start IS operation after the shutter release - otherwise it will increase the lag to the actual exposure start and you can't keep IS on all the time - dSLMs do not have big battaries... so by defintion you will see in any EVF IBIS effect (image starts to stabilize when you for example halfpress the shutter release) if camera has IBIS.. unlike OVF
With Olympus' IBIS (the 5-axis version anyway) you don't see stabilization in the EVF or rear screen with a half-press of the shutter button unless you've turned that option on in the menus. My guess is the system is still active regardless, in the sense that the IBIS algorithms are crunching away, yet the sensor assembly isn't being moved. IBIS seems equally effective regardless of the setting. I tend to stabilize the EVF display with long focal lengths—makes it easier to frame—but not with shorter ones. Note that this all applies to still images…with video I think stabilization is always fully on.
-Dave-
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Sounds nice! The speed at which Sony is trying to perfect their system is impressive.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I'm not a dedicated user of IBIS or OSS although in certain circumstances they can be useful. At the moment I'm wondering about the amount of computing power needed to move 5 axis stabilization with a full frame sensor especially when the camera is attempting sophisticated metering functions and EVF at the same time. No company can debug every possible combination of circumstances.
I would advise early adopters to expect some odd results and much changing in firmware before things settle down.
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This is not the first 5-axis IBIS camera, and the existing ones (E-P5, E-M1) do fantastically well. I think metering or focusing is more reliable and easier for the camera engine once the image is stabilized. It makes sense to me.
I find much easier to check for perfect focus, framing or even exposure in manual mode when I half press the shutter on my E-P5 and get a wonderfully stabilished view on the EVF. Not different from the time I tried a 300mm with IS on my Canon APS.
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They both have pseudo 14-bit images and the raw files are lossy (as opposed to lossless) compressed - two very questionable (aka 'stupid' some might say, .. like me) decisions by Sony.
In order for the decision to be genuinely "stupid" we would have to know what is lost and what is gained. I believe that we (?) don't know.
I believe that a 14 bit linear raw file can be lossy compressed at practically no loss of image information. I.e. some of the bandwidth is wasted on storing noise that has no image-information in it.
I don't know if Sony does this a some pure software compression to save bandwidth/storage space (in that case it is strange that they don't offer the pure lossless as an option, if only to silence the critics), or if this is some physical feature of their ADC front end (as some has suggested). I.e. that the data is allready compressed once it reach their software for reasons unknown (ADC speed? Noise performance? Cost?)
-h
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Sony are doing some good stuff these days.
The A7/(A9?) is an interesting option once my Canon crop DSLR needs a replacement. I have a few worries, though:
*My Sony RX100M2 has very good IQ for its size. But ergonomy leaves something to be desired. Are Sony as good as Canikon on ergonomy in their bigger cameras?
*What is happening with lenses? Are Sony catching up? Sigma? Will converters for my Canon lenses do the job?
*I have really gotten into running my DSLR for 1 week on a single charge. When (if ever) will milfs get to that level?
In some ways, I am still hoping for Canon to wake up and offer a competitive 6D/EOS-M/A7 mashup once a sufficient number of customers start to leave. I guess I have invested time and money into flashes, lenses, ways of working...
-h
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I believe that a 14 bit linear raw file can be lossy compressed at practically no loss of image information. I.e. some of the bandwidth is wasted on storing noise that has no image-information in it.
Hi,
While this forum/thread is perhaps not the best place to discuss this in depth, I'm not so sure about the 'waste' part of storing noise.
Afterall, the signal consists of (Poisson distributed) shot noise, with 'some' more noise added by the capture system. The shot-noise component in my mind adds a bit to the malleability of the image data when we get to post-processing it. That of course does depend on some additional factors, like well depth that allows a significant signal level in order to steer clear of the other (system generated) noise components, but also low levels of PRNU. Some of that system noise could in principle be reduced by averaging multiple-read-outs from CMOS devices and good calibration.
There is even information hidden in the higher levels of shot-noise (which is where Sony does most of its compression), which can be made more detectable by averaging the signal component of multiple captures (which requires mostly stationary subjects). Lossy (actually irreversible) compression of that hidden info will risk losing it.
Cheers,
Bart
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With Olympus' IBIS (the 5-axis version anyway) you don't see stabilization in the EVF or rear screen with a half-press of the shutter button unless you've turned that option on in the menus.
yes, but that's a detail - like you can switch something off and not use that if you do not want that...
My guess is the system is still active regardless
image is coming from sensor... if IBIS is working why 'd your EVF get stabilized feed ? you seem to allege (below) that camera then wastes CPU/battery to undo IBIS effect ? and for what logical reason then (not even talking about implementation and not a word in camera manuals/forums about that since the dawn of IBIS) ?
, in the sense that the IBIS algorithms are crunching away
makes no sense and defeats claimed 100% view of sensor frame, etc, etc
IBIS seems equally effective regardless of the setting
I mean lag, not IBIS effectiveness... it takes time for IBIS to kick in... in some cameras like Pentax it was possible to make a shot (start exposure) before IBIS becomes fully active (which is indicated in your viewfinder)
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'ya can't always get what you want...
Finally in-body stability which should help... however
- how well does it work with adapters like MB? Which is poor for AF and AF lock.. so not sure it's all that great through an adapter
- It's (for me) the least interesting variant of the line 24Mx etc.... i know some of you it suits fine... just not me. I want super low light and high res but can stand 2 bodies. Note the beef up lens mount... I suspected that hanging Big Glass (OTUS, 24mm TS-E) may be too much stress on the fitting...?
Just picked up the A7R and am in the process of eval... maybe we will see price reduction on current models?
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I want super low light and high res but can stand 2 bodies.
If you want high resolution buy the A7R, low light the A7s, 5-axis IS the A7II, fastest AF the A9, etc.
Don't ge me wrong, it is extremely impressive what Sony is doing and they look very well positioned to take a larger chunk of the market next year. I am also very pleased with the A7s...
but as a consumer it would also be nice to have one stable body that looks like it might be around for a while accompanied by some native primes...
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Because...
a) they are not expensive as bodies go... not cheap, but not crazy, my proposed line up is
- A7s for walking around and low light.... considering just about everything in the Market this is a no-brainer
- A7R for tripod-style photography and portraiture
- a6000 for action and high frame rates that solid tracking is needed
own the first two and they are doing just what I'd expect.. will be renting an a6000 to see if it really AF's sufficiently fast and furious
$5200 buys all three brand new, figure another $1000 - $1200 off on eBay for MINT
There is just no single camera that does it all from any manufacturer right now..
My real question is to keep my Canon 6D for the EF-lenses since the adapters just won't do what I want or are a waste of resources, and touchy. The 24mm TS-E II and maybe the Zeiss 100mm f2.0 Makro Planar are the only EF's I will certainly keep. A good Canon body like the 6D won't go completely to waste though it feels quite large after handling the A7's for a bit
If you want high resolution buy the A7R, low light the A7s, 5-axis IS the A7II, fastest AF the A9, etc.
Don't ge me wrong, it is extremely impressive what Sony is doing and they look very well positioned to take a larger chunk of the market next year. I am also very pleased with the A7s...
but as a consumer it would also be nice to have one stable body that looks like it might be around for a while accompanied by some native primes...
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Because...
a) they are not expensive as bodies go... not cheap, but not crazy, my proposed line up is
- A7s for walking around and low light.... considering just about everything in the Market this is a no-brainer
- A7R for tripod-style photography and portraiture
- a6000 for action and high frame rates that solid tracking is needed
own the first two and they are doing just what I'd expect.. will be renting an a6000 to see if it really AF's sufficiently fast and furious
$5200 buys all three brand new, figure another $1000 - $1200 off on eBay for MINT
There is just no single camera that does it all from any manufacturer right now..
My real question is to keep my Canon 6D for the EF-lenses since the adapters just won't do what I want or are a waste of resources, and touchy. The 24mm TS-E II and maybe the Zeiss 100mm f2.0 Makro Planar are the only EF's I will certainly keep. A good Canon body like the 6D won't go completely to waste though it feels quite large after handling the A7's for a bit
All true as well, as usual there are multiple ways of looking at things. I think I will stick with one body though, till things clear up a bit...
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Honestly this body seems a lot closer to what Sony probably should have released last year, the disadvantage is they now already have a system based on in lens stabilisation and the weight saving compared to something like the D750 is getting more marginal.
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Maybe "last year" BC had them persuaded there was no market :-)
Maybe "last year" Sony didn't have this camera.
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There are a few comments here about lenses and I just wanted to add that the lens road map is out there and Googling should lead anyone who's interested to it.
I suppose that one possible complaint is cost as Sony seem to be aiming at the higher end of the market, but these lenses do seem to be getting good reviews.
Personally I'm happy with (slightly) lesser lenses :D
The best lenses I had and used on my Canon 5D were Sigma, 50 and 85mm f1.4 and 150mm f2.8. If lenses of the quality of those could be made in a slightly more compact form I'd be happy. The Sony 55 and 35mm primes and the latest wide angle may very well be amongst the best mass market lenses available or indeed ever made but some of us don't need the very very best :D If these cameras are a huge success maybe it'll be worthwhile for Sigma to develop lenses but recent Sigma releases have also been aimed at the higher end so we may not see any bargains from them.
PS. I'm very happy with my A7 but if it dies a similar camera with IBIS would be great.
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image is coming from sensor... if IBIS is working why 'd your EVF get stabilized feed ? you seem to allege (below) that camera then wastes CPU/battery to undo IBIS effect ? and for what logical reason then (not even talking about implementation and not a word in camera manuals/forums about that since the dawn of IBIS) ?
My point was that Oly's IBIS has two different modes: one that engages the sensor assembly with a shutter button half-press (and allows a stabilized EVF/rear screen display); and a second that engages only with a full shutter button press. Seems to me the second mode is more likely to be effective (which, in fact, it is) if computationally IBIS is always switched on with a half-press.
-Dave-
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Where this type of stabilization is needed is in the video modes.
If it works, doesn't warp, etc., then I'm sure we'll see it in the A7s.
I would imagine, (just a guess) that the A7 was the lowest in sales as it didn't have stellar video or high still mpx., two of the main selling points today.
I think adding the stabilization was to get more sales in the middle . . . but that's just a guess.
I think, like all things digital, we'll see a lot more updates to this line.
IMO
BC
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I think the A7 was the camera Sony designed. Then they had this high mpix sensor on the shelf so they made a R version just because they could.
So iterating the sensible A7 first makes perfect sense to me.
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At the moment I'm wondering about the amount of computing power needed to move 5 axis stabilization with a full frame sensor especially when the camera is attempting sophisticated metering functions and EVF at the same time. No company can debug every possible combination of circumstances.
I would advise early adopters to expect some odd results and much changing in firmware before things settle down.
I doubt that modern GHz speed processors have much trouble handling camera motions that on the scale of milliseconds; the inertia of the sensor is probably the bigger challenge, and it is still probably not as heavy as the lens elements that are moved in long lenses with in-lens stabilization. What is interesting is features like compensation for rotation around the optical axis, which is impossible with in-lens stabilization.
Also, my guess is that the algorithms for this new 5 axis IBIS are not so new, but are based on those developed by Olympus, as part of the technology sharing announced with Sony's investment in Olympus. Hopefully in exchange Sony continues to put its latest sensor developments into sensors for MFT, even if it is competing with Panasonic for those sensor sales.
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lens elements
did you see an OIS moving more than one element ?
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my guess is that the algorithms for this new 5 axis IBIS are not so new, but are based on those developed by Olympus, as part of the technology sharing announced with Sony's investment in Olympus.
They claim Sony's IBIS was developed independently. Who knows the true with 'secret' latest technologies...
http://www.43rumors.com/update-on-the-sony-5-axis-system-they-say-its-not-from-olympus/
Price, native lenses sizes and lineup, and body IS were Olympus key differentiators in the mirrorless world vs Sony. It seems body IS is not anymore.
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The Sony A900 and the A850 and the A99 already had IBIS.
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The Sony A900, the A850 and the A99 already had IBIS.
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The Sony A900 and the A850 and the A99 already had IBIS.
Not 5 axis IBIS; and although the A-mount cameras (and P&S) had IBIS, the E-mount cameras hadn't and A7 II is an E-mount camera.
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I just don't see any upside to getting A_mounts and use Sony's adapter. It likely works better than the MB, but it's still a band-aid and puts an additional lever in the lens system and body... ugh...!
I'll wait for the E-mount versions. Hopefully they will be even better glass than the A-mount legacies from Minolta.
As far as IBIS... OK... IS of any flavor is good. The A7s is so fast though one can almost always amp shutter speed to quiet things down. Further with my photography it's usually the subject that blurs the image, thus IS systems are useless.
As far as shutter shock... not sure the IBIS would, or even could be tuned to work at that frequency, but perhaps... the electronics are amazing, but accelerating the mass to that frequency that quickly may be more difficult than it first looks. The sensor of course likely has much less mass than a lens element(s) but whatever... not worth the battle over it.
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As far as IBIS... OK... IS of any flavor is good. The A7s is so fast though one can almost always amp shutter speed to quiet things down. Further with my photography it's usually the subject that blurs the image, thus IS systems are useless.
IBIS is fab, though, for handheld pics where you want to record subject motion. Optical stabilization is great for this too. The first stabilized lens I bought soon led to an NYC trip specifically to photograph people walking, cars & buses & trains moving, escalators running, etc. It's a style of pic-taking I still enjoy doing.
-Dave-
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Sounds cool really
what sort of subject motion especially attracts your eye?
Think about it... predators do exactly this to look for the slow ones... hmmmm... maybe you're a hunter at heart...!
IBIS is fab, though, for handheld pics where you want to record subject motion. Optical stabilization is great for this too. The first stabilized lens I bought soon led to an NYC trip specifically to photograph people walking, cars & buses & trains moving, escalators running, etc. It's a style of pic-taking I still enjoy doing.
-Dave-
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any EVF will show IS effect by definition... you can't really start IS operation after the shutter release - otherwise it will increase the lag to the actual exposure start and you can't keep IS on all the time - dSLMs do not have big battaries... so by defintion you will see in any EVF IBIS effect (image starts to stabilize when you for example halfpress the shutter release) if camera has IBIS.. unlike OVF
Not my Panasonic GX7. IBIS operates only when a still image is being recorded. There is no detectable lag. Battery life is extended. It cannot be turned on via settings.
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...At the moment I'm wondering about the amount of computing power needed to move 5 axis stabilization with a full frame sensor especially when the camera is attempting sophisticated metering functions and EVF at the same time. No company can debug every possible combination of circumstances.
At current state of embedded computing, you can afford to read 5 scalars, do a lot of maths, then write 5 scalars at 100 or 1000 updates/second. Say that you've got a 4 cores working at 2 GHz doing 4 (float) to 16 (int8) SIMD elements at a time. That is what I've got in my Sony cellphone. Cameras might be lagging somewhat behind (battery requirements, lower sales), possibly compensated by higher price.
So how much is "a lot of math"? Is this problem solved using some Kalman filtering or what? And is 100-1000 updates/second a sensible temporal resolution? I don't know.
I would advise early adopters to expect some odd results and much changing in firmware before things settle down.
Based on what?
One should always confirm that essential features of a new product works as claimed, IBIS or no IBIS.
-h
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My first computer was an IBM 360 and had some decades actually trying to work out what parts of various all signing and all dancing bits of software actually did something like they were supposed to. And then to find workable or more reliable ways to actually safely save the data so that ordinary staff could access and manipulate the data without having a room full of nerds take a month to do so.
But hey everyone has their own little phobias and fantasies - so feel free to run as you will.
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My first computer was an IBM 360 and had some decades actually trying to work out what parts of various all signing and all dancing bits of software actually did something like they were supposed to...
While I do respect working on something like that, I'd suggest that modern hardware has carried with it some significant improvements in raw compute power.
If this compute power is used for the "greater good of mankind" or only to make more error-prone complexity is another question.
-h
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consider that my first IBM desktop had a 10 meg hard drive. :)
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Sounds cool really
what sort of subject motion especially attracts your eye?
Think about it... predators do exactly this to look for the slow ones... hmmmm... maybe you're a hunter at heart...!
Hah, no, I'm more interested in recording motion within a still scene than in tracking motion. Thus little interest in most BIF or sports photography but lots in urban scenes with moving people & transportation using shutter speeds in the ~1/4–1/30th sec. range.
Edit: Guillermo's photos below are right in the ballpark.
-Dave-
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The kind of application where IS is the way:
(http://digital-photography-school.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/blur-motion-train-600x400.jpg)
(http://digital-photography-school.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/motion-blur-street-3.jpg)