Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Carsten W on November 14, 2014, 04:06:19 pm
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Hello all,
I have just picked up a Sinar Hy6 and the eMotion 75 back for it. It should be a 75LV, as the LCD goes right to the edge of the opening in the case.
It looks like some things have changed a bit since I had an eMotion 54LV on a Contax 645 a few years back, and I am wondering if there are other Sinar users here who would be willing to discuss software and workflow, and perhaps other issues.
Btw, it looks like the previous user never set up the back properly, as the spacer was not inserted, and the back/camera back-focuses furiously. I will get it inserted and try again, but unfortunately I left it at work.
Thanks in advance for any help.
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86 views and no one has any tips for getting started?
I installed the spacer today, and now it focuses correctly. I need to test at various distances with all the lenses, but it looks promising. I also went out and made a few shots to test shooting workflow, and can report that the RRS generic L bracket I am using gets in the way, so I will have to think of something else there. I can rotate the back by removing and reattaching it at 90 degrees, but this is obviously not terribly desirable, so an L-bracket is a must until I can get the rotating adapter.
I have just been opening the files in CaptureFlow Studio, setting white balance and exporting as DNG, and this works smoothly. I need to examine how to work the colour this way, however.
Any further tips are welcome.
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Hi Carsten,
when I had the combo I used the "other" Sinar software (dont remember the name) and not capture flow.
I was close getting back into Hy6 system several times but the S works too good for me...even though I believe when you get everthing right with the High6 and the Sinar back you can achieve beautiful files. Skin tones can be excellent.
What was the question again? ;)
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I have worked for a few years with the eMotion75+Contax645 combo and like a farmer content in his mountain valley am so satisfied with the results that I have managed to avoid upgrading to a newer system as you have done, so would be interested to hear what advantages have you found moving "up" to the Hy6? How do you find the ergonomics and autofocus system of the Hy6 and do the far more expensive lenses you are using with the Hy6 give far more superior results than the Zeiss lenses in the Contax 645 lineup or not?
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Hey Tom!
I guess my question is just what the workflow is :) I mean, which capture settings on back, how you loaded files, and how you processed. I don't mean the little things dictated by taste, just the broad strokes.
Currently I shoot at base ISO (100), pop my CF card into a card reader, open CaptureFlow Studio (was eXposure), double-click on the card, select all, drop them on the Desktop, and then import into Lightroom. I have not done many shots yet, due to other obligations this week, but this seems to work fine. On the other hand, I am also not getting amazing colour yet, I will likely have to pay more attention for that to happen.
And so the second part of the question is what steps I could take to maximise the quality of the files I get out, including colour. Shoot the Passport on every shot, make a white shading file, whatever else?
Hello lowep,
I wouldn't say that there is any huge jump in quality, no. Certain lenses in the Rollei lineup are unmatched in the Contax lineup, such as the 110/2, 180/2.8, and so on. Others are just different (35 vs 40, 120 Makro vs 90 Makro). Overall, I prefer working with the Hy6, mostly because of the brighter, larger viewfinder, and the ability to do 6x6 film if I want to. The darkish viewfinder of the Contax 645 AF was its weak point, I found. I never did try a focusing screen by Maxwell though, maybe that would have fixed it. The smaller waist level viewfinder of the 645 system was also less satisfying than the Hy6. Other than those point, I like both very much. Ergonomics of both are excellent, with the Contax being a bit more classical, and the Hy6 a bit more modern.
If you like the Contax, I don't see any reason to move, unless you find something very specific lacking. If you have an itch to try other things, what about a Cambo tech camera for your back?
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Hi there... My suggestion is to use Sinar's software... export to DNG and then import to LR and either export directly to TIFF or fine-tune the DNG a bit and then export...
I haven't used the 75LV on my Contax, but Emotion 22 was my first back and I've used (and processed) HY6 with Emotion 75.... I've also used 75H on Contax (same sensor, different adapter - same adapter as 54m, tethered only and 4x multi able). MO is, that your back is the best Single-shot back ever made! As simple as that... But I wouldn't say the same for the HY-6... Lenses are absolutely beautiful, but... I would much prefer the camera to be the C645... and wouldn't mind a bit C645 lenses or R6xxx ones... Could you please drop me a note if you ever decide to sell your back for good price?
Don't worry about the adapter not being the C645 one... I have access to my E-22 adapter and shimming I previously used to own...
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Thanks Carsten for the reassuring reply :-)
I use the same workflow as you mention apart from post processing in Photoshop rather than Lightroom mainly because it is just the beast I know best. I often export a few different ëxposures" of the original raw file from Captureshop after discovering a lot of detail in shadows and highlights is hidden in the raw files and only appears, as if by magic, when the exposure of the raw file is adjusted.
For capture outdoors I always use the "cloud" setting for colors then adjust to get the pop I want in Photoshop. I save to the internal HD rather than the CF card that is a lot slower then if the Internal HD fills up and time permits I copy the files from there to the CF card. Rather than fiddling with white balance settings in the field I just grab whatever I can get and adjust the white balance later though am not sure if this is a good idea or not.
Using the LCD to evaluate images is about as useful as trying to aim via a shaving mirror at a tiger coming up behind you, even basic stuff like focus is hard to evaluate though if I understand right the LV model has a better LCD than mine. Once upon a time Sinar did offer an upgrade path from the original eMotion75 to the LV model but by the time I found this out it was already history.
It took me a while to figure out how to drag and drop raw files from the camera into folders on my laptop in order to automatically process them into .dng files, which as far as I can figure out is the only way to do this.
I have found that using flash makes quite a difference to the vibrancy of the colors I can squeeze out of this old CCD sensor that needs a lot of light to deliver good results. 100asa delivers the best colors but when necessary I shoot the back at 200ASA that gives me acceptable results though flatter and less detailed colors and only go up to 400asa in an emergency. So have had to learn to work within these limits. I am sure you would agree it is not an easy system to use but with patience can deliver quite satisfying results, no cierto.
Another thing I like about this combo is that it is so heavy if anybody ever attacks me I can probably use it as a weapon to protect myself :-) the closest I can get to digital copycat of my old 4x5 setup without having to rob a bank.
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I think it is important to mention that this back is more view or tech camera friendly than any other... second only to the Dalsa 22mp sensor (not by much)... It is better with movements than all backs with kodak 9μm sensor... This is due to the pixel wells being particularly shallow and no micro lenses existence... The back is also less prone to moire than the Kodak 39mp sensor... (don't know why, the pixel size is slightly larger at 7.2 microns, than Kodak's 6.8 microns). My (personal) judgement is that its colour (as recorded) is the most accurate out of all backs out there that are single shot... I also believe its DR being the best... It also has the cleanest output at 400 Iso out of all CCD sensors, with only little DR degradation too... I would take its output over any back on the market... The screen is rubbish alright... but who cares if he knows what perfection has been recorded in the card?
Another thing to mention is processing latitude... su-pe-rb! (the only word that can describe it)... Files my seem to luck "bite" to some... but they are so accurate and can take as much "bite" as one wants in processing... The best back that there is IMO.
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good luck with finding your sinarback theodoros. i dont have experience with other MFDBs but have noticed that with this one some moire can be an issue with some fabrics.
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Theodorus, thanks for your tips and knowledge! I do not imagine that I will sell the back. I could imagine selling the camera, for example if I move to a tech camera one day, but I will not sell either for a long time. When I sell, it will be for market value :)
I use the same workflow as you mention apart from post processing in Photoshop rather than Lightroom mainly because it is just the beast I know best. I often export a few different ëxposures" of the original raw file from Captureshop after discovering a lot of detail in shadows and highlights is hidden in the raw files and only appears, as if by magic, when the exposure of the raw file is adjusted.
For capture outdoors I always use the "cloud" setting for colors then adjust to get the pop I want in Photoshop. I save to the internal HD rather than the CF card that is a lot slower then if the Internal HD fills up and time permits I copy the files from there to the CF card. Rather than fiddling with white balance settings in the field I just grab whatever I can get and adjust the white balance later though am not sure if this is a good idea or not.
[...]
I have found that using flash makes quite a difference to the vibrancy of the colors I can squeeze out of this old CCD sensor that needs a lot of light to deliver good results.
That is interesting information! I could occasionally use flash, although not in general. I will keep it in mind. So you mean that doing longer exposure does not give the same image quality as having more light?
Your tip about doing several different exposures is also very interesting. That would mean that either some data is lost in the translation to DNG, which surprises me, or it is simply easier to process the image in that way, rather than trying to do the same in Lightroom. I will try it out and see how it works for me. When you say that the detail in the shadows and highlights only show up when the exposure is "adjusted", do you mean that just touching the slider initiates a different behaviour of the software, or do you mean that CaptureFlow can bring out the detail better when shadows and highlights are adjusted here?
The cloud setting is the overcast white balance preset? I think that shouldn't affect the raw, just the preview image. Good tip about writing to internal memory and copying to CF later. I don't tend to shoot a lot of images, so that would probably not limit me in any way.
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I use the Hy6 eMotion 75LV combo myself, but have the files go through the old Brumbaer converter as it's extremely straightforward. Anything that gets me into Photoshop quickly is alright by me.
I love the camera and the back too - it's pretty rock-solid and has put up with a lot of punishment from me in a great variety of weather conditions. The resulting photographs don't disappoint either!
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Does anyone in this thread have galleries where I could look at some of the results achievable with the back? The pro I bought my camera from provided this little gallery:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8370520@N04/sets/72157644824474024/
My own recent photos are here, but have nothing to do with medium format, being mostly Nikon D3 and D800, and some Sony A7.
http://500px.com/CarstenW
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you mean that CaptureFlow can bring out the detail better when shadows and highlights are adjusted here?
in my experience yes though am no expert
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Okay, I'll try it out and see if I can devise a test which would determine it conclusively, and report back here for critique.
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Watch out for the green cast in the 75LV files! IMHO the files from the eMotion 75LV have a green cast to them, tim-xxx´s gallery shows this. When i converted the raws in Exposure or CaptureShop and imported into LR i always had to dial in a tint correction of +66 magenta in the WB panel in Lightroom. The DNGs out of CaptureFlow Studio are a lot better in this regard. I am using CaptureFlow Studio now exclusively, ISO800 is also a lot better in CFS, actually quite usable. Not all DNGs are created equal.
About processing in LR: Also try the older 2010 process version, it gives drastically different results. I want to make my own camera profile for LR but i haven't done it yet. But i made some lens correction files for my lenses. Never needed a white shading file. The e75LV likes light, longer exposures are possible but more light is better. Exposure over 10-15 seconds do suffer a lot.
The revolving adapter is a must have! BTW: you should grab one of the many 50AFD and 80AFD lenses on ebay too. At current prices these are a steal.
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Philipp is right!
The revolving adaptor is a must - it makes things much simpler and it is easy to know if it is portrait or landscape whilst shooting just by feeling the orientation of the back with your hand.
I haven't found a green cast with the 75LV, probably a bit on the blue side though with my setup.
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I'll have to pick up a rotating adapter, it seems a very useful thing. IIRC these things are very expensive, does anyone know the price? I would guess 1200-1500 Euro or so...
I am on track to pick up the Schneider 40/3.5, but I am wondering if anyone here has compared it with the Zeiss 40/4? I saw a comment on photo.net that the Zeiss was meant to be a bit sharper. Are there different versions of the two?
I tend to use a fairly wide lens combined with a short tele, so I think that the 40/90 set will probably be perfect for how I shoot, but I will start with 40/80 for now, since I have the 80.
I'll have to think about how I shoot with low light, since I have relied on long exposures so far. I will experiment a bit and see where the quality cutoff is for me. Since I do a fair amount of UrbEx and forest photography, I don't really ever have loads of light...
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The 90mm APO-Makro never appealed to me. It seems to be a great lens optically but 90mm and F4 just don´t do it for me. I have the 80mm and 110mm Planars, 80mm AF-Xenotar and the 120 Makro-Planar.
I never tried the 40mm Zeiss lens but i think the Schneider is the better lens. It is smaller, lighter, faster, takes regular 77mm filters and the floating element floats automatically. The Zeiss has the Zeiss look though.
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I know what you mean about the 90mm, but f/4 is the same as the 120 Makro, and I do prefer a slightly shorter lens. The 90mm focal length I think comes into its own a bit on a 36x48mm sensor, being 105mm effective, or just a bit longer than a normal lens. I could also get along with the 120, but apparently it flares badly, and I prefer the stronger lens in that case.
How do you find the 120?
What is the "Schneider look", compared to the Zeiss look (and Leica, etc.)?
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Schneider look: High local contrast with low global contrast and very gentle transition into out of focus. Very un-Zeiss with the low global contrast.
The 120 Makro-Planar is a real Zeiss lens. Nice rendering (also for portraits if you like it sharp). I only had a flaring problem once but that was with a studio strobe pointing directly into the lens. It is one of my favorite lenses.
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The Schneider look sounds more like Leica, being lower overall contrast with a gentle sharpness transition. I love both the Leica and Zeiss looks, so no problem for me there.
Hmm, I was hoping you wouldn't answer like that... I think I will probably end up with both :) I'll start with the 40, and see where I go after that, which may depend on what comes up on eBay.
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I love both the Leica and Zeiss looks, so no problem for me there.
I actually prefer the 80mm Zeiss Planar to the 80mm Schneider Xenotar but I might be the only one.
The Zeiss Planar 110mm/f2 is excellent. Mine frequently has a tendency to underexpose though. Not sure why.
I own the Zeiss Sonnar 150mm/f4 PQS but I am still to be convinced.
I also own the Zeiss Sonnar 250mm/f5.6 PQS but hardly use it.
The two lenses I use the most are probably the 50mm and the 180mm, both Schneiders.
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Interesting. Favorites here are the 60 Curtagon, the 80 2.8, and the 150 Telexenar, all Schneiders. The 150 4.6 on the bellows is just superb, but limited to in studio or indoors, but a remarkable lens. Its distortion curve is just plain old flat. Also the 300 Apo is rather special.
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The 150mm APO-Macro is definitely on the list of lenses i want to try.
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Here is a list of all available lenses for the system, put together by Thierry some time ago. O means out of production, X means still in production, P means planned, at least at the time of his post:
Zeiss F-Distagon (Fisheye) PQ 3.5/30 mm (X)
Schneider Super-Angulon PQ 3.5/40 mm (X)
Zeiss Distagon PQ 4.0/40 mm (O)
Zeiss Distagon FLE PQ 4.0/40 mm (O)
Schneider Super-Angulon PQS 2.8/50 mm (O)
Schneider AF-Super-Angulon PQS 2.8/50 mm (X) / AFD-Super-Angulon PQS 2.8/50 mm (P)
Zeiss Distagon PQ 4.0/50 mm (O) / Distagon EL PQ 4.0/50 mm (O)
Zeiss Distagon FLE PQ 4.0/50 mm (O)
Schneider PCS-Super-Angulon (Shift) PQ 4.5/55 mm (O)
Schneider Curtagon 3.5/60mm (O)
Zeiss Distagon PQ 3.5/60 mm (O)
Schneider Xenotar PQ 2.0/80 mm (O)
Zeiss Planar PQ 2.8/80 mm (O) / Planar EL PQ 2.8/80 mm (O) / Planar PQS 2.8/80 mm (O)
Schneider Xenotar PQS 2.8/80 mm (X) / AF-Xenotar PQS 2.8/80 mm (X) / AFD-Xenotar PQS 2.8/80 mm (X)
Schneider Apo Symmar Macro PQS 4.0/90 mm (X)
Zeiss Planar PQ 2.0/110 mm (X)
Zeiss Makro-Planar PQ 4.0/120 mm (O) / Makro-Planar PQS 4.0/120 mm (X)
Zeiss Sonnar PQ 4.0/150 mm (O) / Sonnar EL PQ 4.0/150 mm (O) / Sonar PQS 4.0/150 mm (X)
Schneider AF-Tele Xenar PQS 4.0/150 mm (X) / Tele Xenar PQS 4.0/150 mm (P) / AFD-Tele Xenar PQ 4.0/150 mm (O) / AFD-Tele Xenar PQS 4.0/150 mm (P)
Schneider Apo-Symmar Macro PQ 4.6/150 mm (O)
Schneider Tele-Xenar PQ 2.8/180 mm (O) / AF-Tele-Xenar PQ 2.8/180 mm (X) / AFD-Tele-Xenar PQ 2.8/180 mm (X)
Zeiss Sonnar PQ 5.6/250 mm (O) / Sonnar EL PQ 5.6/250 mm (O) / Sonnar PQS 5.6/250 mm (X)
Schneider Apo-Tele-Xenar PQ 4.0/300 mm (X) incl. lens hood
Zeiss Tele-Tessar PQ 5.6/350 mm (O) incl. lens hood
Zeiss Tele-Tessar PQS 5.6/350 mm (O) incl. lens hood
Zeiss Tele-Tessar EL PQ 8.0/500 mm (O) incl. lens hood / Tele-Tessar PQ 8.0/500 mm (O) incl. lens hood / Tele-Apo-Tessar PQS 8.0/500 mm (O) incl. lens hood
Zeiss Tele-Tessar PQ 8.0/1000 mm (O) incl. lens hood
Schneider AF-Variogon PQS 4.6/60-140 mm (X) incl. lens hood / AFD-Variogon PQS 4.6/60-140 mm (P) incl. lens hood
Schneider Variogon PQ 4.5/75-150 mm (O) incl. lens hood
Schneider Variogon PQ 5.6/140-280 mm (X) incl. lens hood
Per suggestion, I have grouped the lenses in, let's say, strongly related designs, i.e. same manufacturer, same focal length and aperture, with only PQ/PQ EL/PQS and MF/AF/AFD differences. This should give a better idea of how many "unique" designs there are. Note that certain lenses may have had improvements hidden behind these differences.
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Hi Carsten,
I dont remember my exact workflow because ist too long ago.
Some comments:
-I allmost allways had to do Manual WB afterwards or adjust WB manually.
-Exp metering with the Hy6 did not seem very accurate to me, so some exp variations make sense.
-I had the Schneider 40mm and think to remember that it is generally prefered over the Zeiss 40mm
-The 110/2.0 is a great lens. However in the end I found the Xenotar 80mm also very nice but in a much smaller size.
-I have to check - eventually I have some Rollei things left which I dont Need any more which might be usefull for you. I think step up rings, SCA Flash Adapter, cable release and some other stuff. I will check and pm you
-Overall I found the Hy6-LV75 great but it takes much more effort to ge the final result compared to my Leica S which is as easy as a DSLR. On the other side the IQ from the Rollei lenses with the DALSA sensor is very Special and the Hy6 gives a very nice medium Format Feeling and the viewfinder is great too.
I also found the AF problematic and therefore used the Hy6 more in Manual focusing mode.
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Haven't used the Hy6 with a Sinar back, but extensively with a Leaf AFI II-7 (33mp) back. No real issues. The AF works fine for me, esp. with the 50 and 80 (just tried the 180 and its OK, but not as seamless as the other two).
The list of lenses made is impressive, but could be edited by simply noting the PQ and PQS as two available shutters for a given lens. The optics didn't change.
There is an inevitable discussion of the difference between a manual focus lens, the AF, and then the AFD (sometimes improved and different).
One of the hidden benefits of this system is the ability to use manual focus lenses (not so expensive on the used market), top tier quality. easy to use with the Hy6 focus confirmation. Compared to other systems (e.g. Leica S) with expensive lenses, one can build a Hy6 system with several additional lenses. And have lenses one would normally not spring for. I'm not saying they are cheap but at c. $2k for the Hy6 MF lenses, its not out of the realm to add a few. Having started with Rollei 6003 in 1992, the lens stable has gotten a bit fuller over the years.
One could also pick favorites on that list of lenses. I'm not a fan of the zooms, which are behemoths, but I've seen results from the 60-140 AF on an 80 mp back, and it was impressive (assuming weight/size were not an issue!).
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Carsten,
I haven't used the Sinar backs personally so can't weigh in on the software, but can comment on the lenses. I've tested them all with imatest at apertures from wide open to f/16. The sharpest lens in the whole lineup is the 90mm APO macro, but many are quite close. The differences between Zeiss and Schneider are largely the look in the rendering of the out of focus areas - where some prefer one or the other. Both makes of lenses achieve quite excellent results but the Schneider lenses are typically sharper wide open than the Zeiss, though there are a few exceptions - 110/2 and 120 macro being good wide open on the zeiss side and the 40mm schneider which is sharp in the center and middle wide open but not the edges until it is stopped down some. The schneider lenses are all color matched and the rendering is the same from lens to lens which provides some consistency in projects where you use multiple focal lengths. Also worth mentioning - the schneider lenses typically have lower distortion or less complicated distortion than the zeiss lenses - though there are some exceptions. I think of the schneider lenses as more neutral rendering and the Zeiss as having a bit more color contrast built in. The 40mm and 50mm FLE lenses from Zeiss are newer designs than the older distagons and are quite nice. I noticed with the FLE lenses that getting the rear element really correct made a difference - this means setting it in between the click stops when needed. I wish I had the time to put together sample images from all of these lenses. I test every lens I take in on trade for sale in my used dept, and also for a long time before when I was just a user. Normally there isn't much sample variation from copy to copy like you might see with some other brands, and mostly when I compare two samples I can't really tell them apart from the test images which is really a good thing.
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Thanks for the comments everyone. As per the suggestion, I have edited the list to group "strongly related" designs.
I am *very* interested in hearing which lenses are people's favourites, and why. I have just a 50/60/80/150Z/150S set right now, which represent some of the budget lenses, and am looking at expanding with some more "advanced" lenses.
I have also changed the thread's name to include the very similar Leaf products, to be more inclusive. It isn't like we are drowning in posts here, and including more will possibly let the thread appeal to more.
It might also be interesting for people to post approximate prices in Euro and US Dollars, to give an idea of costs of the various lenses.
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The AF works fine for me, esp. with the 50 and 80 (just tried the 180 and its OK, but not as seamless as the other two).
I would agree with this. The 180 AF is slightly more hesitant than the 50 or 80.
Another thing about the AF is that is not very good in low light situations. I usually switch to manual focus then.
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How do you focus on an eye with the 180/2.8? Focus, recompose? Which focusing screen do you use?
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The 110/2.0 is great for Portraits IMO. Very smooth Rendering, ist good to Focus manually (the shallow DOF helps focusing) and you can get very close.
The 40mm for a nice wide angle and small size of the lens.
And the 80 Xenotar for ist OOF-Rendering, Color and small size.
I found the 180/2.8 very nice but also very big and a tad too Long for my taste I prefered the 110/2.0.
http://www.pbase.com/tstreng/image/108063159&exif=Y
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Hi everybody,
Interesting topic!
Sorry about my english. I do my best! ;-)
I bought on this forum a Hy6 with a Leaf altus 10R and 80mm.
I upgraded to Hy6 mod2 two years ago.
I upgraded to Leaf Credo 60 last winter.
I bought the 110mm f2, the 50mm afd, the 40mm f3.5 Schneider Super-Angulon, the 90mm Apo.Symmar f4 makro and 3 months ago the 80mm f2.
I do portraits.
For me I use the 40mm and the 110mm a lot.
Here are some picture I did yesterday with the 110mm.
A few other portraits on my web site are made with the 80mm f2.8
Guillaume
And I want to say thank you to EricWHiss at rolleiflex.us. He has the answer at everything about Rolleiflex!
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Parato, we said the same feeling in the same time!
I just want to add that I have bought a Sinar 54LV to attach to my Bronica ETRSi (with a V mount) and I have a adapter to attach the Sinar 54LV to my Hy6. I want to try it next days.
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What is the "Schneider look", compared to the Zeiss look (and Leica, etc.)?
That's easy to answer... Schneider is lacking some contrast when compared to Zeiss... It seems to be a result of Zeiss (traditionally) being more flare resistant than any other lens which adds "bite" in its looks... In combination with a Sinarback e-motion back, (which also looks less contrasty than comparable Kodak sensors like P45+) Schneider may look dull in comparison... but this is only before processing... OTOH, the Schneiders may offer more processing latitude, they resolve as much as any and are extremely colour neutral....
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One of the things that is delightful about this system is that it is modular so you can change from one use to another easily. Film back, digital back, or change the viewer, pick a lens to go light or heavy, etc. Only wish the handle was removable like the 6003, so that you could pack it easier!
Eric is right about the distortion on the Schneiders being easy to correct: once used the 50AF to shoot architectural drawings (the drawings were very big, flat on the floor, and didn't have enough height to use a longer lens). After a bit of barrel distortion correction in C1, they came out fine. And this is a tough test. Any wobble in the one below is from the mylar not being flat.
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Good to know that the AFD 50mm is good enough for repro!
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That's easy to answer... Schneider is lacking some contrast when compared to Zeiss... It seems to be a result of Zeiss (traditionally) being more flare resistant than any other lens which adds "bite" in its looks... In combination with a Sinarback e-motion back, (which also looks less contrasty than comparable Kodak sensors like P45+) Schneider may look dull in comparison... but this is only before processing... OTOH, the Schneiders may offer more processing latitude, they resolve as much as any and are extremely colour neutral....
It's not my observation that the Zeiss lenses are more flare resistant to the Schneider lenses in this system - actually if anything the opposite might be true. The great thing is there are two excellent sets of lenses out there for the platform.
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i suppose if the statement that Schneider lenses have less global contrast is true, then that can quite easily be perceived as having less flare resistance under certain circumstances.
Anyway, this is all useful information, thank you all very much. I know that I love Zeiss lenses and the Zeiss look, but I am also keen on trying some Schneiders, so I will find out sooner or later. I do have both the 150/4 lenses, so that will be my first test. I suspect that I will order the 120/4 Makro next, since it would make for a nice 40/80/120 kit, and it is half the price of the 90, and for me a better general focal length on the 1.17x crop factor of the 36x48mm sensors.
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Two older threads on the Hy6 and its glass:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=76060.msg615365#msg615365
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=82794.msg668848#msg668848
The first one is really on the Pentax 645D lenses but at the end of page one lacunapratum does a very good job IMO on comparing the glass of the two systems and highlighting which lenses shine on the Hy6.
The second thread is on using PQS glass on the Hy6 with shutter speeds of 1/1000.
You might have already found these threads, if not they are worthwhile reading IMO.
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Thanks, I wasn't aware of these.
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Does anyone have head and shoulders portraits made with the 120 Macro wide open?
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Hi,
I have a new question.
I have a Schneider Xenotar AFD 80mm that I use a lot but the min. focus is 1m and I would love have a lens with 0.8m.
I have seen the the new Schneider AFD Apogon can have the min. focus 0.8m.
Do you know a solution to trade my Xenotar with the Apogon?
Thank you in advance.
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The Apogon appears to be very rare, I can't find any at all. You could contact DHW, but I suspect that any trade-in offer would undervalue your existing lens, and you may be better off just selling and buying. Are you in France? Who is your dealer?
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On the Apogon lenses:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=83164.msg671615#msg671615
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The Zeiss Planar 80mm 2.8 PQS focusses a little closer than the Schneider 80mm lens. OTOH the 9mm extension tube should do the trick for you, it maintains AF, metering and aperture control. Should be about 100 Euros used.
Did anyone try the new 150mm AFD lens?
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I'm located in Switzerland. Near France, Italy and Germany!
I bought my Hy6 (with the 80mm Xenotar) here on the LL sale forum.
I just plug few minutes ago my Sinar 54LV on my Hy6 mod2 with the revolving adapter. I enjoy to test it.
Regards,
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Ah, the revolving adapter, I need to get one of those myself. The price appears to be around 1600 Euro? Quite a bit, but it will be worth it, I suppose. For now I am rotating the back.
I was out this weekend, trying to find some phat light for the back, and experiencing moderate success, and a lot of misses. I mostly nailed the focus, or at least close enough, but it was hard work, and I am wondering if there are better screens that the split+microprism screen I have. I normally prefer a plain matte screen, but I don't know if I would get focus with it. Is there such a thing? Any experiences?
I found that the dynamic range was not overwhelming, something similar to my A7, maybe even less, but maybe I am doing something wrong. I find the histogram rather hard to read, and it doesn't always agree with the preview image. Recommendations? Once the image is within DR, the file is quite nice, if you don't have to shift things around too much. I think the sweet spot of this back needs working with very carefully. And walk-around (which isn't my thing anyway, I was just testing) isn't its element either. I did bring a tripod but decided to do handheld.
Phillipp, I found a bunch of your shots with the 120 Macro on Flickr, and I think I will get this lens, it looks awesome. I would love the newer Apogon, or at least a PQS lens, but realistically the PQ will do the trick for me, and the prices are a lot better...
If you put the 9mm extension on the 80, what are the near and far focusing limits? Is there a calculator somewhere online for this?
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Hi Carsten,
what difference do you find between the 75lv and the 54lv ?
I like the 54lv a lot, colours are rich and natural (Apart from WB you have to adapt). I wonder if the 75lv has the exact same character with some technical advantages (pixels, DR, iso) ?
I spent some time with other backs and cameras, but your thread pushed me to reload the batteries of the contax and sinar. My favourite lenses are 55, 80 and 120 mm. 55 is great for street work, the 80 has a great look wide open, the 120 is great but large. I only use the wvf on the contax : very clear and large, very light and small when folded, looks old fashioned, which creates a nice relation for making pictures.
I once tried the maxwell screen, but I didn't like it. Lighter but frames were to visible.
I also used the sinar 54 on an alpa TC / rodenstock 35 aaa ... Fantastic for landscapes. These LF lenses have something special. And the alpa is adictive.
KR
Marc
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To be completely honest, I haven't yet found the sweet spot. I haven't had much free time between full-time work, taking care of my daughter, and my girlfriend taking a masters beside her 3-day job, and a couple of birthdays in there too :(
The e75 is meant to be a touch better than the e54 in resolution and ISO, and about the same in colour. I am not sure about DR. I think the physical back and the operation is identical. I find the colours a touch subdued so far, but I really have very little time invested. I also had some trouble with the e54 as you know, but every once in a while when the Contax didn't crash, it would spit out a fantastic image. I haven't had one yet like that with the e75, but I am hopeful that it is coming. I really just need one day with good light and time, and I will head to the nearest forest with some lenses and my tripod, and try to put it through its paces. I might also dig out my studio light (yes, singular) and see if I can make some nice product-type shots. I just need to see one fantastic image, so that I can home in on the sweet spot, but I am still searching around a bit. Phillipp Derganz has some really nice portraits on Flickr, so if I can match the quality of one of those, I will be happy, as a first step.
I also hope to get a tech camera one day, but one thing at a time. I think I will get the 120 Macro and stop there for now, and just spend time working the combo. I might pick up a chimney viewfinder, if I can find one for less than a bar of gold.
On the Contax, I loved the 35 and 120 to death. I never really got into the 80, not sure why. Slightly longer than normal might have had something to do with it. I have seen great work done with it. I did have the 110/2 Hasselblad, which might also have had something to do with it. That lens is just a little better, although with no AF or auto-aperture. I always wanted to try the 55, but the prices were high and they only came up rarely, so I never got the chance.
I am surprised to hear about the Maxwell screen, I think you are the first not to like them. What was wrong exactly? What do you mean with frames, did you have framelines etched on it?
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The macro info might be in the Rollei brochure on macro photography. I think Eric has it on his website (its a free download, but you have to "order" it).
Here's a little crib sheet I put together for the 60 Curtagon, 80 f.2.8, 150 telexenar, and 300 Apo:
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I've shot portraits with the 80/2.8 and a 9mm extension and it works nicely. But if I might make a recommendation, while the 180/2.8 and the 110/2 are the real portrait lenses, the 150 tele-xenar is also a good choice for portraits and may even be cheaper than a 120 macro. I think the 120 is a great lens, but it has a way of emphasizing the fine texture which is fantastic for macro work with flowers and stuff, but can make for a lot of retouching of skin because it will make every pore stand out. It isn't that the Zeiss 120 is sharper, than the schneider because its not, it's just a different pronunciation - like an accent. However this is a personal opinion and everyone may have their own preference. You might just try the 80/2.8 with a 9mm extension first?
Geoff is correct - I have the Rollei close up guide available for free download on my site. It has tables for the the range of a number of lenses with different extension or combinations of extension tubes fitted. It's quite an interesting read as it also shows the wide range of macro accessories made for the cameras. Most of these will work with the Hy6 too! http://rolleiflex.us/products/rollei-close-up-guide-to-macro-equipment
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Eric, it is true that the pores come out more but it also makes the eyes pop. I would love to test the Schneider and Zeiss 150mm in this regard.
Thanks Carsten for the kind words!
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Carsten, do you have the Rolleiflex High-D screen? That´s the standard screen for the Hy6. I like this screen the best. It works quite well for manual focus too. I also have a plain matte screen (don´t know what brand) that is awfully dark and a Brightscreen plain matte screen that is quite nice but it is not as bright as the High-D.
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Thanks Geoff, that is very useful. I have to check if I have the 9mm ring, I think I just have the 17mm and a couple of larger ones, which I snapped up a while ago for a good price, but never really got around to using much.
Eric, what you write about the Schneider 150 makes sense when referring back to previous comments on contrast and micro-contrast differences between Schneider and Zeiss lenses. However, even if I do end up preferring the S150 to the Z120 for portraits, I might still get the macro lens for close-ups in forest and urbex photography.
Phillipp, I should have phrased the "as a first step" differently; on a second reading it may sound like I want to use your style as a first step to improve on. That isn't what I meant, and I would be happy just to get there. I meant as a first step to learning the e75. Btw, if you are ever in Berlin, let me know: I have both 150s at the moment if you would like to try them out.
I do not know how to tell which screen I have? It has a split ring with micro prisms and a grid.
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Thanks for the kind words was only meant as a reply to "Phillipp Derganz has some really nice portraits on Flickr". Didn´t want to express any sarcasm. ;D
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I do not know how to tell which screen I have? It has a split ring with micro prisms and a grid.
Page 17:
http://www.rolleiflexpages.com/pdf/systemcatalog_e.pdf
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It appears that I have "Hell- Einstellscheibe mit zentralem Messraster und Messkeil". I wonder if the High-D is better? I will look for it.
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To be completely honest, I haven't yet found the sweet spot.
I haven't had much free time between full-time work, taking care of my daughter, and my girlfriend taking a masters beside her 3-day job, and a couple of birthdays in there too :(
Yes, this thing needs time and efforts. I haven't used the contax & sinar a lot these last 3 years : played with alpa and P65+, got a sony a7r to travel light. I haven't yet processed all sony pictures taken this summer : very good in many aspects, but no sonar-magic.
I saw my success rate growing significantly over time, so you should succeed soon !
On the contax, the 80 is great wide open with an very narrow DOF. But backgrounds then have a circular distorsion that is very special. The 120 is much more linear.
I am surprised to hear about the Maxwell screen, I think you are the first not to like them. What was wrong exactly? What do you mean with frames, did you have framelines etched on it?
Maybe because I used it with the waist viewfinder, but I found the split screen to mask the scene. The standard screen is not so bright but you can focus on the subject of the photo. With this split screen, I only saw the focusing thing. And focusing with the wvf was no issue as the image is huge.
Maybe it makes much more sense with the prism viewfinder. That I don't like as much due to its size, weight, usual reflex-like attitude instead of the old-fashioned one with the the wvf.
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I am thinking of buying the High-D screen, but want to confirm first what it is that I am getting myself into. As far as I can see, it is just a matte screen, no split, no microprims, no grid, just a little central marking around AF and metering areas. Is that right?
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Carsten,
The High D screen comes in matte and split prism versions. It was standard in the Hy6, so I'm betting you already have one. Both matte and split prism version have dashed lines on the outside to show the 4.5 x 6 crop lines for portrait and landscape.
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The one I am looking at is 56704, with a centrally etched circle and a pair of brackets left and right. It does have some dashed lines as you describe. It isn't clear to me if it has micro prisms or not. I would prefer not. By the way, I see that you sell the Maxwell matte screen on your site. How do you find manually focusing with these, compared to the plain High-D screen?
My Hy6 didn't come with all the original accessories, and the only focusing screen I received was the split/prism/grid version. Nice screen, but not quite what I am looking for for most shooting. FWIW I am also missing a 45 degree prism cap and a shoulder strap, although I am not sure that I really need the latter. I will probably contact DHW for these items. I will probably need to melt down some bullion to pay for them though :)
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Hi Carsten,
If your screen has the split prism and the dashed lines you most likely have the 10772 screen. As to which is preferred? I spent an afternoon in a camera store my with my Hy6 mod2 tethered to a laptop seeing which screen people preferred and which one they were most accurate with. It seems that people liked the matte screens better than the split prism ones for focusing on subjects manually. It seemed that the Maxwell screens had a very slight edge in terms of people's preference but their accuracy was actually the same with both.
Since you have a digital back, you can check a few things on your system quite easily by setting up the camera on a tripod and tethered. First you should check and set the AF Offset values or micro fine tuning of the focus confirmation indicators for each of your lenses. This is the same as tuning the autofocus on autofocus lenses - works the same way. Once you have the lens focus fine tuned, you can practice manually focusing on subjects and see how far off you are with the indicator. Sometimes it takes a little training to get used to what the focus looks like on a particular screen. This can help you improve your manually focusing accuracy.
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Carsten, you could also try the screen you have in your 6008i. The screens fit in the Hy6, 6008 and some TLRs.
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Hi Eric,
Any updates on the current state of the manufacturer of this wonderful system that so many people here seem to find pleasure in using?
Best wishes, Neil
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I guess you know the recent news: DHW is insolvent, and is operating through guidance. They are, however, optimistic that ways can be found to continue, and they are still operating. If there is anything you want for your system, now would be a great time to support them. I will be making a small order soon, possibly including the 6060 back.
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Hi Neil,
I'll be at the factory next week and will know more then. As Carsten wrote, they are operating now but with a reduced staff. They do make some wonderful cameras. I'm still surprised every day by people who didn't know about the Hy6 or even that they still make the TLR's.
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Well, for better or for worse, I just picked up a slightly used copy of the Rollei 40mm f/3.5 Schneider Super-Angulon PQ HFT. I am a big Zeiss fan, but this lens has such a good reputation that I want to try it out, even if it isn't as sharp in the corners wide open as the Zeiss 40mm FLE might be. Now I just need a hood for it :/
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Now I just need a hood for it :/
My lens (bought on eBay) came with the hood. It is one with a screw knob and unfortunately does not play well together with the lens cap.
My (outdated 2010) DHW price list has it for $268.96. It is cheaper though on the rolleiflex.us website at $198.95.
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Phillipp, I took a look at my 6008i screen, but it is also a split screen, so I will likely pick up a matte screen. I am considering getting the Maxwell screen from Eric...
I had an odd experience Saturday, and I was wondering if anyone has any ideas: I went out to do some testing of my lenses, to see which are good and which I might want to replace, with a high-resolution digital back things are surely different than with film. I got back, and in spite of having been in A mode, and having varied the aperture manually, I see no difference in depth of field with my aperture-bracketed shots... I picked up the camera and looked at the lens, and made some shots, and it seems to work fine, so I really don't understand what might have gone wrong.
I was not expecting trouble of this nature, so I will have to do some more focused testing, but was just wondering if someone could think of something silly I might have done. I did check that the camera was in A mode before leaving home, and that night it still was, so I consider it unlikely that it switched to something else in the daytime, and then back again, but it isn't 100% impossible.
I also got a couple of over-exposed shots, but oddly they seem to be the later shots in the sequences, where I was hitting smaller apertures (f/16-f/22), and not the early ones where I might have over-exposed due to not noticing that the shutter speed wasn't fast enough (I need to get used to checking that more carefully). Ideas? Might the shots come out in reverse order from either CaptureFlow or the camera? I wonder if I might have shot one sequence from small to large aperture, I will have to repeat and take good notes.
I also found out that my 80 Planar PQS does not work at 1/1000s on the Hy6, so I am considering either swapping it for the Schneider, or sending it to DHW to get the resistor snipped.
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Has anyone here tried to tether the Hy6/eMotion 75LV to a Surface Pro? I have one lying around, and wonder if I should try it...
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Has anyone here tried to tether the Hy6/eMotion 75LV to a Surface Pro? I have one lying around, and wonder if I should try it...
You can do this with a Phase One IQ (https://digitaltransitions.com/page/phase-one-iq-series) or IQ2 (https://digitaltransitions.com/page/phase-one-iq2-digital-backs) back or a Mamiya Leaf Credo (https://digitaltransitions.com/page/mamiya-leaf-credo-digital-backs) since they have USB3 as well as FW800.
How would you do this with a Hy6/eMotion 75LV?
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Has anyone here tried to tether the Hy6/eMotion 75LV to a Surface Pro? I have one lying around, and wonder if I should try it...
Carsten the only way to tether your Hy6 to a Surface tablet is if you had a Credo 60 or a Credo 80 back on it...via USB and Capture One...
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Well I don't know, that is why I am asking :) I thought I had read that owners of older Phase backs do it, but I guess they must have been the newer backs. I suppose I would need a Mac then, with a Thunderbolt to Firewire adapter. Maybe I will look for an older Macbook Air 11".
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Thanks Yair and Doug, the Credo is nice, but out of my budget. I will have to find other solutions.
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The eMotion back does have an onboard battery but I would check that it can reliably tether to an Air as you might need an additional power source for either the Mac or the back.
Cheers yair
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Has anyone used the loupe vertical finder, whatever it is called, with the Hy6? I find myself using the WLF with loupe almost exclusively, and the proper finder may be better for this case. It does have higher magnification, does it?
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Haven't used the "chimney finder", but have seen it. Rather I rely on the focus confirmation and it does wonders. But dial it in for each lens. Instructions for how to set the AF offset are attached. Makes a big difference, and is not well documented.
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I used the camera some more this weekend, and discovered that the Zeiss 80mm doesn't reach the smallest aperture openings. After about f/8 it doesn't stop down any further, which is where at least some of the over-exposed shots were coming from. Since it also doesn't use its 1/1000s shutter release time, I will likely send it in anyway, so that will be taken care of. I will test further to see if any of the other lenses have this problem.
I also tested some more to see if the lenses are stopping down in general, and it appears that the depth of field changes are much more subtle than I expected, but they are happening.
I need to test all combinations and send away the lenses needing maintenance. Does anyone know what the price is likely to be for a lens overhaul? I live in Germany.
I still haven't done the processing, just the shooting.
I am still learning little things, like it is faster to shoot to internal memory, and then transfer the images to CF card at some convenient time. The only way to see that this is happening is that the "images remaining" numbers on the info screen are red. There is no progress bar.
Another tip is that when attaching the back, lean in the bottom two prongs first, then click in the top two. If you try to do one side before the other, it may lock after the first side and have to be detached again.
Mounting and unmounting lenses is a little rough, and I will clean the bayonets carefully, and possibly apply a microamount of silicon lube or similar, to see if that gets rid of the stiffness.
I do wish that the lens release and grip release buttons were a little larger and easier to find without looking. They are small, a bit stiff to operate, and hard to find without looking.
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While it would make sense to adjust each lens for focus, I tend not to like using automatic systems, since they never tell what they are locking on to, and so I will still pursue the best focusing screen and technique that I can. So far I haven't had a problem with inaccurate focus very much at all, so with a bit of care, it works, which is great. I had much more trouble with my Contax 645, in spite of the lower resolution of the eMotion 54LV I was using at the time, as well as with my ancient Hasselblad 500C (with film!).
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I do find that the Schneider 40mm isn't wide enough for what I want to do. It would probably make it in a pinch on the full 56x56mm frame, but on 36x48mm I find it too tight. Eventually that probably means that I will have to add a tech camera, if it becomes a problem. The Cambo WRS or similar with a 35mm or 32mm lens, with a little room for shifting, and possibly a little tilt, would be awesome, but that is several thousand extra expense, so that will have to wait for now. I will keep my eyes open for good deals on used equipment.
Does anyone have lens recommendations for this combination? How does one focus accurately with such a system?
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I need to test all combinations and send away the lenses needing maintenance. Does anyone know what the price is likely to be for a lens overhaul? I live in Germany.
Hi Carsten, I would recommend that you give our service-technician Mr. Daus a call. He is an expert on lenses. His number is 0531/6800-425
Ps: Where in Germany do you live?
Best regards,
Johannes
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Hello Johannes, and thanks for the answer. I am in Berlin. I see now that you are in Braunschweig, a real shame, since just this weekend I was in Goslar. I guess you would have been closed in any case, so it wouldn't have made a difference, but it would be great to be able to visit one day.
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Well, I just took a dive into the slightly deeper end, and ordered the plain matte Maxwell screen from Eric :) Knock on wood that I will like it as much as I hope.
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I got a Maxwell screen for my Contax 645 and like it very much.
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Yes, I have heard great things about the Maxwell screens, but this will be the first time I try one. I am excited to see what all the fuss is about.
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Some early results. I am finally beginning to see the advantage of these files. The natural colour just comes so easily, and there is some meat in them, even outside ideal parameters. The Sony A7, which I also shoot, is also very good (in a different way of course), but I have to deal with a bunch of little issues with those files.
Sinar Hy6, eMotion 75LV, Schneider 40/3.5 @ f/8, 29s, ISO 100. The Schneider doesn't have the same micro-contrast as Zeiss lenses, but it is sharp when stopped down a little! Long exposures isn't really the forté of this back, but with a touch of noise reduction, it does okay.
(http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/SinarHy6e75/CW_20141213_SinarHy6e75_0123.jpg)
Another one, same camera/lens combination, 1/15s, f/8. I missed focus slightly, but there was enough meat in the file to bring it back.
I cannot imagine how much work is required to cover a house like this with slate! Incredible workmanship.
(http://throughthelensdarkly.com/forums/SinarHy6e75/CW_20141213_SinarHy6e75_0056.jpg)
By the way, these were both shot in Goslar, Germany, at the north edge of the Harz.
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Hmm, these show up smaller than they really are, and the downsizing isn't that great. It removes a bunch of detail. Is there some way to post links to the full images?