Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Motion & Video => Topic started by: Lightbox on October 07, 2014, 06:21:19 am
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I'm posting this here in the video forum ironically, as it's the area I'm least experienced in. I'm after a new camera something to replace a GoPro, I need a small lightweight camera that is mostly good at shooting video, but needs to be capable of a few other things.
I'm a Canon guy always have been and, I think always will be, I buy a new DSLR and get a good 4-6 years out of it before seeing a need to upgrade, so although I follow the market a bit I don't pay that much attention to specs. Currently have a 5DII which has been a great camera for my shooting style, have also had a GoPro to film boating/fishing action which has been great for its careless functionality of just mounting anywhere and hitting the red button.
I'm now in the market for a new small lightweight camera, here's some key features I'd like...
1. Good video, I have the 5DII for more setup shots but the new camera will mostly be used for mounting in odd places on a boat so I'd like it to be small and lightweight. I don't need to shoot super wide for this, maybe 24-28mm at the widest, I guess good quality video and a natural low contrast look are my main focus here. I'm not too fussed about ISO/lowlight performance but dynamic range is at the top of the list.
2. Ability to shoot good macro, I do a lot of fly tying for my saltwater flyfishing and sometimes like to create timelapses, here's a few examples...
https://vimeo.com/77227382 (https://vimeo.com/77227382)
https://vimeo.com/95693779 (https://vimeo.com/95693779)
Those were shot using my 5DII + EF100mm Macro, but I'd like to get away from using that and burning out the shutter and have a smaller camera to work with for fly tying. Also the shutter noise of a 5DII clunking away every 3 seconds as you're trying to relax and focus on tying is actually quite distracting.
3. To compliment the above, have built in wifi for setup and control when mounting in odd places using an iOS device, and also to setup and control timelapse shooting via Macbook Pro or iOS.
The two camera's I've mostly considered so far are the Canon G16 and the Canon EOS M2, both have wifi, both are small and the EOS M2 I could still use my EF100mm for macro timelapses and a pancake lens for filming on the boat. However there are a lot of offerings by Panasonic and others now that seem to keep me researching, and not purchasing :)
So really I'd just like some advice based on the requirements above, I want to shoot nice smooth good quality video, and keep it lightweight, any help would be great.
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Have you considered the Sony a5100?
Very good video quality (50 mbits/sec) in a light and compact package.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Thanks Bernard, had a read of the specs over on dreview and seems to be a great option, exactly the help I'm trying to get from this post.
I realise audio is a huge part of video for most, however the majority of my videos will just have music overlayed so not such an issue at this time, I'd like to buy a separate audio recorder at some stage.
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Thanks Bernard, had a read of the specs over on dreview and seems to be a great option, exactly the help I'm trying to get from this post.
I realise audio is a huge part of video for most, however the majority of my videos will just have music overlayed so not such an issue at this time, I'd like to buy a separate audio recorder at some stage.
There are a lot of small cameras, depending on how much you want to spend.
Something tiny with a converted larger lens really won't be that small, or lightweight.
For the best picture quality if you don't need autofocus, or auto anything is the blackmagic cinema pocket camera. It shoots an amazing file, you can add a metabones adapter for your canon lenses, or 4/3 lenses.
The only downside is sound preamps are awful and the battery is dismal. Good for 12 minutes of filming at the most, so you'll need an external power system, which isn't that difficult but a consideration.
The BMPCC is a serious camera, which means it takes serious work to get the best out of it. That's good, sometimes no so good.
The gh3 can be had on the cheap, shoots at all intra file rather than long gop and at 72MbitsPS. It's good to 800 iso or maybe 1,000 if your good at grading as long as you set it rather flat (there is no way to upload a log file). The gh3 also has mini hdmi out for a secondary monitor that is stable, unlike smaller cameras with micro hdmi, though the best way to view through a secondary monitor off camera is with the parallax wireless system.
The downside of the gh3 is it's either ntsc or pal, ie, 60hz or 50 hz so a different body per region.
The gh4 is more expensive but gives you 4k though has a slightly tighter crop and is ntsc and pal.
Really the best deal if your shooting 2k, is the 70d. It's 50 MbitsPS, but has full functionality, use the 5d2 batteries, all you canon lenses and if you compare the weight to that of a tricked our small camera there isn't much difference. Also the 70d can be bought for under $900 and you have the lenses. It's also ntsc and pal and has touch screen focus.
Just make sure you download the technicolor file for the 70d. It changes it 100%.
One other off the wall option is the Olympus em-1 with a hack. There is one that records 4k and delivers 2k and it's pretty amazing detail, with a new one on the way that delivers 4k.
IMO
BC
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Thanks a heap BC, some good options and info there and I've been considering the BMPCC a lot, being a DSLR shooter for a longtime I never liked the look of GoPro footage, but they are awesome for their size and ease of use. I'd rather have full manual control over exposure and focus, most shots will be setup in one position so no need to rack or follow.
Just simple filming but at a nice quality as close to filming with a DSLR without the size. I'll look into the 70d as it may just work if I can use a lightweight ball head and lens combo, a good wide angle lens for the 70d may be a bag of sugar too far though. A lot of it will be filming with the camera pole mounted on the boat, with boat moving fast and also stationery filming, I'd love to get a gyro'd gimbal mount for this :)
Battery is also another big concern, boat has 12v USB charge but is slow/low amp charging, so I guess buying extra batteries, planning out shots and using a shot clock would be my best option.
Yonks ago before the drone movement I spent a year learning to fly a pretty big RC heli with the intentions of buying a proper filming heli, that took some serious effort and concentration. Oneday soon I'd love to buy a drone for filming and photo work so I'll be keeping this in mind with my camera purchase.
I think BlackMagic cams are a good thing, albeit a bit behind the times in useability, but if they keep at it and update their current cams they can be an awesome thing to work with.
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1. Good video, I have the 5DII for more setup shots but the new camera will mostly be used for mounting in odd places on a boat so I'd like it to be small and lightweight. I don't need to shoot super wide for this, maybe 24-28mm at the widest, I guess good quality video and a natural low contrast look are my main focus here.
Go-Pros have options shoot to far less wide than the default fisheye and/or you can use higher res than 1080p so you can crop in later. ProTune offers a very flat, low contrast large bit rate file to let you choose the look you want in post. I know you mentioned you do not like the look of GoPro footage but it can be tweaked considerably to be quite different from its baked in camera look. Have you tried these options with yours?
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I think BlackMagic cams are a good thing, albeit a bit behind the times in useability, but if they keep at it and update their current cams they can be an awesome thing to work with.
There are three ways to shoot motion footage. Easy, hard, super hard.
Easy, I phone 6, a few attached lenses and a sound kit with a go pro for crash cam. This actually works better than most people think and you kit will fit in a small satchel.
Triple J is right that a go pro can be amazing, though I really don't like them, for small crash cams, outside of cars, or under skateboards, high above, they are amazing little devices.
Hard. Tricked out dslrs, a Red Scarlet/Epic with Canon lenses, a Canon c500, and a black magic anything and of course trying to figure out what Sony sells, what lens goes on, what recorder is made to get to the frame rate you want and when they will actually ship.
The BMCPC needs to be viewed as a sensor and screen only. It needs a small cage, (I found a great one in London) and a sound pre amp (also from London is one made for smart phones) and of course battery power, which requires a bunch of small batteries or a second part gold line, v lock or lithium holder (you have to look around but there out there and easier to find than you'd think.
The thing about the bmpc it's a 3x sensor compared to still 35mm. The metabones ef adapter makes it 1.75x and will allow for canon lenses with image stabilization, but NOT canon dg lenses (aps c) because the flange goes back too far, but will take sigma dg stabilized lenses. I mention this because Canons 17 to 55mm with ois and a constant 2.8 is one great video lens.
Also remember you will need either ND filters or a fader which I suggest Tiffen as it's between the higher end BH and the lower end chinese faders.
super hard, is of course real cinema work. Actually if you want to learn about using multiple cams on a large project read all you can find about Anthony Dod Mantle and how he filmed the movie Rush, using Canons, Arris and Go Pros, graded on set to match them up. BTW: Since this movie was shot on a tight budget no one over the line (including ADM was paid), but the footage is amazingly good and inventive.
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Everyone loves to compare footage, as image makers we look for sharpness, file quality, things that most people don't see, but in the end if the highlights aren't blown, the story is solid, the filming inventive the camera becomes somewhat secondary.
The only issue with cheaper cameras is they take a lot more work in post to get right than more expensive cameras.
When I set down to first light grade, I loathe dslr footage in medium key and high key work, love RED and black magic footage and the difference in time to get a look is 4x more with the cheaper cameras.
DSLR footage is generally pretty in low key. Go figure.
IMO
BC
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Again thanks BC, amazing knowledge to be sharing, but there must be an option between easy & hard :)
The camera needs to be small and lightweight, can be bigger than a GoPro, I think the most I could get away with would be a small mirrorless with adapter and SLR lens. After a bit of research over the weekend it seems a small mirrorless with biggest possible sensor size but not a fixed lens, and use a compatible pancake lens for the widest shots and adapter & EF lenses for everything else.
It's a pretty confusing market to look at right now with all the top brands having 2-3 models of their own served up on the table. I'm swinging quite highly towards the BlackMagic Pocket Cam because for me it's always been about the sensor and image look. I'm not shooting commercially with this so it's all on my own time for my own benefit of capturing nice footage of navigating my local water in my boat and fishing, and also timelapse/video of fly tying. Manual operation of the camera, planning and taking time to set up a shot, and getting a nice look out of the footage with interesting light is something I live for.
I need to make a decision soon as I'm out on the boat a lot and want to start building footage :)
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Sounds like you should be looking at the Panasonic the GH3 + GH4. They can be tweaked to produce very impressive results.
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Cheers JJJ, I'll study that one up as it seems to be designed more for video than photo. One thing making it tough is that I live in the country so I can't just pop down the road and handle these camera's, I will make a trip into the city for purchase and final comparison though.
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I'll throw in with the GH4 recommendations. I wasn't expecting much from it, but over a several day shoot it won me over with small size, decent files and surprisingly good battery life. We were using Canon lenses with the metabones adapter, decent light (no low light, they don't excel there) and no sound (handled with external recorder). Our purpose with this camera is to be a B cam for a RED. Since you are married to Canon, perhaps a 6D may be worth looking into. I think you also have to think long term -- if you have a C300 or C500 in your future, consider a 5D3. One thing worth mentioning is that you can power an entire system off of Canon batteries. You can not do so with GH4 batteries.
At the risk of putting words in BC's mouth, medium difficulty I would say is your 5DIII or the aforementioned Panasonic, though I suppose one could argue that in real world use they are actually much harder to get good results from than with a dedicated video camera. Things like follow focus and external sound complexity to the gear, but make getting quality footage easier.
However, to your question, a GoPro is a specialized tool and it does what it does better than anything else. Sure, you will probably get better results with a GH4, a good suction base with a head and a few magic clamps/super clamps but they cannot endure the abuse of a GoPro. I'm not sure what you don't like about GoPros (admittedly there is a lot not to like), but they are wonderful tools for what they are.
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Cheers JJJ, I'll study that one up as it seems to be designed more for video than photo. One thing making it tough is that I live in the country so I can't just pop down the road and handle these camera's, I will make a trip into the city for purchase and final comparison though.
To add to what Gandalf said, dedicated video cameras are quite different from stills cameras used for video which require a lot more other bulky kit to get them more functional. This applies to a GH camera as much as a 5D camera as both are stills kit in form factor. Both of which also happen to be very good at video stuff.
The GH cameras, like the 5D are hackable to get better than 'standard' footage out of them.
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To add to what Gandalf said, dedicated video cameras are quite different from stills cameras used for video which require a lot more other bulky kit to get them more functional. This applies to a GH camera as much as a 5D camera as both are stills kit in form factor. Both of which also happen to be very good at video stuff.
The GH cameras, like the 5D are hackable to get better than 'standard' footage out of them.
There is no free lunch. I had two gh4's on order but the 2.3 crop is just too much. If you want to pull a cinematic look with decent background separation, it takes .95 lenses or some kind of metabones type adapter and then you run into the fact you have no stabilization, manual focus only and at the end of the day, still end up with a dslr type file, rather than a full fledge cinema file.
I loved the little gh3's, until I tried the 70d which gave me a super 35 style sensor, though only 2k and of course line skipping which can alaise if your not careful.
Personally there is no right answer and I could list every camera I own, the good and bad and every camera requires a workaround.
I still think a bmpcc with a metabones and canon lenses is the cheapest way out with a very nice prorezz file. It's still a small sensor and with the metabones it will give you a 1.75 crop on canon lenses, but it's better than 2.3, though it will get larger than you think once you start adding to it.
IMO
BC
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I've just bought a GH4 and speedbooster for B-cam duties. Haven't used it in anger on a shoot yet, but initial impressions are good- managed to dial in a look which is a pretty good match to the RED with only a little fiddling about, which is a good start.
Love the self-contained form factor, the detail of 4K, autofocus, the long battery life and low weight.
Suspect this thing is going to find permanent home on my gimbal rig as having the RED on it is back-breaking.
The GH4 even has Wifi remote control built in. In our experiments it is a bit laggy and stuttery, but still enough for me to use an iPad as an external monitor complete with touch to autofocus. Great for solo use on the gimbal rig, easier than the remote focus we've got set up on the RED. Paralinx arrow pic transmitter, REDlink wifi, control via FoolControl app on MacBook which doubles as focus controller for EF lenses and monitor for the focus puller. It's awesome, it works, but it definitely needs a second a crew member to pull focus when the RED is on the gimbal rig. When I'm on my own I'll take something a bit less splendid which allows me to fly and focus solo.
I'm still using a GoPro but I have to agree that for narrative stuff it is less than ideal. Even with Protune camera raw and proper profiles from FilmConvert, I'm still never happy with the footage. Add to that the fisheye distortion and infinity focus and it is just too compromised.
I'm having more luck with an iPhone 5S as a "get into small spaces" action cam. With Filmic Pro app you can lock focus, exposure, white balance and shoot at higher bit rates- it generates a contrasty file, for sure, but overall I found it needs much less work to match the RED.
A mate has just got a 70D, shot a bunch of behind the scenes stuff for us at a recent shoot with fashion designer. It's pretty damn good, and the touch to autofocus is in a class of its own. I nearly bought one, but the lure of 4K swayed me to the GH4.
Cheers, Hywel
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J,
Could you expand a bit on "easy"? What and how can one do with an iPhone in your experience? Thx -
Edmund
There are three ways to shoot motion footage. Easy, hard, super hard.
Easy, I phone 6, a few attached lenses and a sound kit with a go pro for crash cam. This actually works better than most people think and you kit will fit in a small satchel.
Triple J is right that a go pro can be amazing, though I really don't like them, for small crash cams, outside of cars, or under skateboards, high above, they are amazing little devices.
IMO
BC
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I still think a bmpcc with a metabones and canon lenses is the cheapest way out with a very nice prorezz file. It's still a small sensor and with the metabones it will give you a 1.75 crop on canon lenses, but it's better than 2.3, though it will get larger than you think once you start adding to it.
Have you ever used one of these BC? I have to admit they really have my attention, but I have never seen one in the wild.
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Have you ever used one of these BC? I have to admit they really have my attention, but I have never seen one in the wild.
Yes and no. I borrowed "rented" one in London. Remember their are three metabones with caldwell glass for m43 that gives a 1.75 factor on m43.
One is for general m43 (though I don't know what general m43 is).
One is specific to the bmpcc only.
One is specific to gh4 and omd em1 and 5.
Using the bmpcc is not an easy thing, as it takes a small pre amp for sound, even scratch sound, (mine was modified in London to work from an iphone to a bmpcc,) you need to remember that without a metabones the crop factor is 3 so it's not just mm multiplication but it's also the look of separating the background to the foreground. In other words a 2.8 lens looks like around f6 to f7 (not exactly) on ff 35mm still camera.
Anyway, yes I have and you get full funcationality on most canon lenses, like f stop and stabilization, though Canon DX lenses won't fit it as the flange goes back too far, Tamron, and Sigma DG,or DX lenses are suppose to work through.
The reason I mention that is my favorite quick to use lens is the 17 to 55 Canon 2.8 with stabilization won't work because of he flange length.
Good news is Tokina has a new 1.8 zoom lens coming out, Tamron has a highly rated 17 to 50 DX lens that is suppose to fit a metabones, (though try before you buy).
The upside of the bmpcc it does look like cinema film, though you have to watch the highlights. It's so sharp that compared to the average dslr or video cam type footage a 2k bmpcc file looks like 4k (it obviouisly not).
I really wish black magic had more resource. I can't imagine what they could build (or sell) if their small cam had a 4/3 or super 35mm sensor, in camera stabilization and some basics like formatting cards in camera. (the last is a real b_ll buster.
But for 500 to 700 bucks it's a hell of a little camera and well worth owning.
IMO
BC
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if their small cam had [..] some basics like formatting cards in camera. (the last is a real b_ll buster.
They (bmcc & bmpcc) do now ..
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They (bmcc & bmpcc) do now ..
thanks
BC
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There is no free lunch. I had two gh4's on order but the 2.3 crop is just too much. If you want to pull a cinematic look with decent background separation, it takes .95 lenses or some kind of metabones type adapter and then you run into the fact you have no stabilization, manual focus only and at the end of the day, still end up with a dslr type file, rather than a full fledge cinema file.
I loved the little gh3's, until I tried the 70d which gave me a super 35 style sensor, though only 2k and of course line skipping which can alaise if your not careful.
Personally there is no right answer and I could list every camera I own, the good and bad and every camera requires a workaround.
I still think a bmpcc with a metabones and canon lenses is the cheapest way out with a very nice prorezz file. It's still a small sensor and with the metabones it will give you a 1.75 crop on canon lenses, but it's better than 2.3, though it will get larger than you think once you start adding to it.
Whatever you choose is a compromise of some kind - camera too big, sensor too small etc. So depending on what one's needs are, something that is a compromise too far for someone else could be perfect for yourself. This is why a hands on testing is essential, we can all give pointers and offer good advice, but ultimately we are not the person buying and sometimes little details can be a deal breaker. For example - The rubbish retro style shutter dial on the Fuji XT1 was one for me, style over usability. They weren't very good in ye olde days and are painful now we have 1/3 stop increments.
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Not really advise but an interesting video using all sorts of cameras https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z-YXyi8UTU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z-YXyi8UTU)
As has been mentioned, GoPro's are quite customisable and you can even buy replacement lenses that are not so wide.
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I'm gonna crack the whip here as we seem to have gone fairly off topic, although I am taking in a lot from the experience you guys have with video and the info being shared here, thanks.
As stated in my original post, I don't have anything against the GoPro it is an awesome little camera for its size, ease of use and crash cam ruggedness. I just want to step up a notch in video quality and a more cinematic look from a GoPro without gaining too much weight and bulk, so even the smallest of SLR's available today are way out of the question.
I realize it's a bit lazy but I'm not too concerned about audio capture, external monitors etc. at this stage, 95% of the video I'm wanting to capture and edit/use will have a soundtrack. For the other 5% where I might want to capture small sound clips, a fishing reel singing or a fish splashing on the surface, I'll get an external audio recorder.
I can afford to use a camera with a bit more size than a GoPro, and you would think that this would allow me to net some sort of gain in video quality and a more cinematic look :)
Where does that leave me? Like any consideration of a new camera purchase, in a big bag of compromises. It seems to me that camera companies are just not seeing the issues and developing a camera to work as a complete system, instead focusing on selling new camera bodies and forcing the customer to jump through hoops to make it work and get the real goodness that a camera may be capable of.
Here are 3 options I see...
Get a mirrorless camera with fixed lens and be happy with it. Probably won't be much of a gain at all over a GoPro, but will look like a bigger camera and thus make me feel like I'm doing better.
Get a mirrorless camera with no fixed mount and try hard to find a small wide angle lens, 24-28mm range, that will keep camera size down and offer better video quality and a more cinematic look than the fixed lens option.
Stop whining about the GoPro and just go and buy another one and forget about the camera market for another 5 years.
Video quality and a more cinematic look, you're sick of hearing that by now I know, but that's my focus here, my real reason for starting this thread. Surely starting with good footage out of camera is the right way to go rather than relying on post to pull footage into line.
Just typing.
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I have an NEX5n - there are now newer versions.
The video is not excellent but the S35 sensor makes it a really good match for other larger cameras you may use.
The 16mm pancake is incredibly small, the 18-55 kit lens has some things about it that make it not as terrible as I thought.
The camera it a bit tricky to mount as the tripod screw is a bit flimsy.
Shot most of 'Stolen' with an NEX5n (and gopro!) - you may note that with a nikkor 50 1.2 it certainly looks 'cinematic'
https://vimeo.com/81317308
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I saw a video by 'Dude Like Hella (https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZIHF5EoEixc)' the other day after the 'IFL Science blog (http://www.iflscience.com/physics/rocks-ice-make-coolest-sound-ever1)' mentioned strange noises skipping stones on ice can make. The reason I reference this is because I was intrigued by camera he shot his diary stuff with. It was nice looking footage, despite obviously being shot handheld with a pretty small camera with with at times fairly shallow DoF (which is what 'cinematic look' usually means) and I think it is a Sony RX100 Mark I that he uses. I just got the Mark III version the other day and although I've not had time to properly test the video, I'm very impressed by the camera, particularly by how customisable all the dials and buttons are and the amazing stills quality.
The thing is if you shoot wide open with this or say a m4/3 camera, DoF will be such, that you are still going have to be careful with manual focusing of anything nearby. Remember 35mm film footage capture area is smaller than a 35mm film stills or a FF camera, which are buggers to accurately focus for video in comparison.
A cinematic look is often down to lighting BTW. Not just shallow depth of field.
Most cinema is not in fact shot at f1.2 either. :)
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Thanks Sam for posting you're production, really enjoyed that and seeing what small format camera's are capable of, was great to see a bit of BTS footage at the end and how you've rigged the camera's.
Both the Sony RX100 III & the a6000 are looking like good options although the RX100 doesn't offer camera control via its WiFi but is slightly smaller in physical size. Might finally be worth a trip to the city.
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Thanks Sam for posting you're production, really enjoyed that and seeing what small format camera's are capable of, was great to see a bit of BTS footage at the end and how you've rigged the camera's.
Both the Sony RX100 III & the a6000 are looking like good options although the RX100 doesn't offer camera control via its WiFi but is slightly smaller in physical size. Might finally be worth a trip to the city.
That's funny, I was just about to ask if anyone has experience with the RX100 III. It looks like it might fit the bill. I may try to pick one up for some BTS on a shoot next week.
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I ended up getting a good deal on a Sony a5000 with 16-50mm lens, really happy with the light weight and image quality but using the WiFi feature is a bit 1990's. Instead have ordered Sony's IR remote for the camera to start/stop recording when the camera is mounted out of reach.
Have just sold the 16-50mm lens to get the 16mm pancake as my main wide angle, which will make it a really nice little compact camera for the boat and hopefully provide a fraction of extra quality being a prime lens. Here's the first bit of test video I shot with it the other day...
https://vimeo.com/123480267 (https://vimeo.com/123480267)
Seems really smooth and almost slow motion due to the glassy water not giving a sense of speed, and a reasonable amount of dynamic range for a small sensor. For the above video the camera was mounted to the top rail of the center console, next is to get it back behind me and up on a pole for a better view of the boat and me fly fishing up the front. Thanks again for all the input here stoked to finally have something I can mount easily and rely on to capture decent footage.
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Glad you got something you're happy with.
BTW - The music on track reminds me of Dreadzone.