Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: uaiomex on September 19, 2014, 03:16:04 pm
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The advantages and the versatility is mind blowing. Who do you think will come out with one first?
A camera maker with mirrorless experience or a medium format camera maker? Hit first, hit twice.
Eduardo
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Tech cams don't have mirrors. The newest cmos based backs have decent live view. Therefore mirrorless MFD cameras are there, aren't they?
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There is probably not enough competition in the MF digital world to make development costs worth while, There is not enough MF Camera makers or enough MF camera owners.
High volume sales is what generates development.
Paul
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The advantages and the versatility is mind blowing. Who do you think will come out with one first?
A camera maker with mirrorless experience or a medium format camera maker? Hit first, hit twice.
Eduardo
"Who will come out first" sounds like you are sure one will do... But none will for several reasons... 1. There should be sensors with good LV that would permit lenses to work at a near to light sensitive distance... (if a lens was to be mounted at current distance you may as well keep the mirror box) there are no such sensors (yet). 2. If sensor problem is solved, one may buy a back and use it on an Alpa or similar... the result will be very similar. 3. If a maker decides to go for a new system with no back added (to reduce size) and provided that there will be a sensor that will work well with short mount to sensor distance... The maker will have to make a new complete line of lenses for the system.... Don't we have enough systems already? ...who is gonna take such a financial risk? ...especially if there is a good chance for the system to be a marketing disaster.
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Isn't the Alpa FPS just that?
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Ok guys, tech-cams, view-cams and the FPS and Hcam have no mirror. In that way they are mirrorless. But that's not what I meant.
Instead I was thinking about a mirrorles Camera from Hasselblad, Pentax, Fuji, Mamiya, etc., with their own line of lenses and dedicated adapters to use many other lenses from other makers.
I was thinking of a manufacturer that already makes mirrorless systems (Fuji, Olympus, Sony, etc) again with their own glass lines.
Technology advancements keep bridging equipment and gadgets all the time now. I wonder for a couple of years who was to be the first manufacturer to come with a real phone/camera hybrid. Wil it be a camera maker or a smartphone maker? Well, it was neither. Actually was a manufacturer that did both already: Panasonic. Smart move.
Eduardo
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I would be my money on Sony first, second and third, pentax and fuji later. Sony has a long history of spending R&D money on the weirdest projects. In this case I see Sony trying a DMF mirrorless a la RX1 first, with an optical viewfinder as an accessory and later with a EVF and an interchangeable lens mount. I think they were figuring out the lens mount first when they developed the RX1 and testing the waters. Sony has the sensor ready and I've always asked myself why would they developed the MF sensor for a small market if they weren't planing to use it for themselves? like with the D800 sensor? ....also they don't mind creating a new lens mount after another and another ;D ;D ;D
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For some of the same reasons, I bet Sony first but Fuji could surprise us all because they were heavily in the MF business and now they are in the mirrorless. So they must have all the resources figured out.
I would be my money on Sony first, second and third, pentax and fuji later. Sony has a long history of spending R&D money on the weirdest projects. In this case I see Sony trying a DMF mirrorless a la RX1 first, with an optical viewfinder as an accessory and later with a EVF and an interchangeable lens mount. I think they were figuring out the lens mount first when they developed the RX1 and testing the waters. Sony has the sensor ready and I've always asked myself why would they developed the MF sensor for a small market if they weren't planing to use it for themselves? like with the D800 sensor? ....also they don't mind creating a new lens mount after another and another ;D ;D ;D
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I'd like to think that Fuji might produce a medium format version of the X100/s/t
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I'd like to think that Fuji might produce a medium format version of the X100/s/t
They haven't yet offered a FF version... Wouldn't it be more sensible if they do that first?
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heres a mirrorless medium format camera-
(http://www.redsharknews.com/images/arri_65_2b.png)
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Yes, the Sony CMOS opens up for a mirrorless MF camera in the same style as Sony A7r, ie not a tech cam, but a normal compact mirrorless without movements and with an electronic viewfinder. Problem is that the digital back concept is not really compatible with that, it would make a hopeless bulky camera body, you need to make a mirrorless body with integrated sensor and screen. Thus I see it more likely that Pentax, Fuji or Sony would be first with such a concept rather than Hasselblad or Phase One. But you never know...
Maybe something looking like a Mamiya 7 (which could indeed be compatible with Mamiya 7 lenses) but with a screen and EVF.
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iXU150 (http://industrial.phaseone.com/iXU_camera_system.aspx) with iX_Capture (http://industrial.phaseone.com/iX_Capture.aspx)
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iXU150 (http://industrial.phaseone.com/iXU_camera_system.aspx) with iX_Capture (http://industrial.phaseone.com/iX_Capture.aspx)
Technically yes, practical, no. Cost effective maybe.
Having to shoot tethered would be a bit limiting in many folks workflow, especially as mirrorless tends to = smaller and compact.
Paul
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Technically yes, practical, no. Cost effective maybe.
Having to shoot tethered would be a bit limiting in many folks workflow, especially as mirrorless tends to = smaller and compact.
Paul
It takes CF cards as well with Live View on the LCD
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heres a mirrorless medium format camera-
(http://www.redsharknews.com/images/arri_65_2b.png)
I wonder... what is the mount to sensor distance on this? ...Knowing this, could lead in more knowledge on the feasibility (or not) of a mirror less MF system... Is it more than an inch?
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It takes CF cards as well with Live View on the LCD
That's a good point, I forgot about the live view on the LCD. That does change things quite a bit.
Can it be triggered by hand, non tethered? if so, then yes, I would totally agree. Actually very small package.
If the camera could be fired from the LCD, that's actually a very neat solution, as Phase/Leaf already have the high iso needs met, and the optics are there too.
Paul
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The advantages and the versatility is mind blowing. Who do you think will come out with one first?
A camera maker with mirrorless experience or a medium format camera maker? Hit first, hit twice.
Eduardo
With the now seemingly readily available 50mp Sony MF CMOS sensor a Medium Format Digital Mirrorless Interchangeable lens camera systems should be quite easy to design and build.
The key advantages of such a system would be a much smaller and lighter camera body but more importantly it would allow to design much smaller and lighter lenses also and of course allow the use of a LOT of existing lenses (with adapters) thanks to the short flange focal distance. Costs should be much lower.
The technology to make such a system is out there. All you really need is a great High Resolution Electronic Viewfinder similar or larger to the one in the Fuji X-T1, a High Res. Rear LCD screen and external buttons and controls in a nice to hold camera body. A nice battery system is also a must. AF would be the biggest hurdle but with the EVF one can have great manual focusing precision with pip and 10x zoom.
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Paul, the iXU can be triggered by a fairly simply cable release...
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heres a mirrorless medium format camera-
(http://www.redsharknews.com/images/arri_65_2b.png)
Actually the Arri is not mirrorless but rather... mirror missing!!! The mount to sensor distance is the same as a Hasselblad H and the lens line is all rehoused versions of the H line of lenses.
http://petapixel.com/2014/09/21/need-resolution-arri-unveils-6-5k-alexa-65-sensor-three-times-bigger-super35/
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Fuji made several compact fixed-lens medium format cameras, in at least 6x4.5 and 6x9 (and, iirc, a 6x8 version in Japan), as well as a 6x17 panoramic fixed lens camera. These were well regarded at the time, with excellent lenses and sometimes quirky bodies (sound familiar?) I had a pair of the 6x9 cameras, one with a 65mm lens and the other with a 90mm. The lenses were ooutstanding. The handling of the cameras left something to be desired. But overall the results were very good 6x9 transparencies. Later Fuji made a zoom-lens version of the 645 camera.
It would not surprise me one bit to see a medium format version of the X100 style camera.
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Fuji made several compact fixed-lens medium format cameras, in at least 6x4.5 and 6x9 (and, iirc, a 6x8 version in Japan), as well as a 6x17 panoramic fixed lens camera. These were well regarded at the time, with excellent lenses and sometimes quirky bodies (sound familiar?) I had a pair of the 6x9 cameras, one with a 65mm lens and the other with a 90mm. The lenses were ooutstanding. The handling of the cameras left something to be desired. But overall the results were very good 6x9 transparencies. Later Fuji made a zoom-lens version of the 645 camera.
It would not surprise me one bit to see a medium format version of the X100 style camera.
I am sure Fuji can make the interchangeable lens mirrorless system camera (with Awesome EVF!) a reality plus they can make fixed lens MFD cameras today if they wanted to. Just look at what they have done with the X system in just a few years. Awesome stuff. Out of all the companies Fuji is the one I would bet on to make all these dreams a reality. Sony would be the second one but to a lesser extent.
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Ahhhh! Big difference. :)
I am sure that 50% of sales of the A7 line of cameras is because its ability to use practically any lens and that they can perform too as digital backs thanks to the short lens flange distance. No other FF sensor camera can match this versatility. Its only logical to presume 44x33 sensor is next. Just missing is knowing who will be first to do it.
Eduardo
Actually the Arri is not mirrorless but rather... mirror missing!!! The mount to sensor distance is the same as a Hasselblad H and the lens line is all rehoused versions of the H line of lenses.
http://petapixel.com/2014/09/21/need-resolution-arri-unveils-6-5k-alexa-65-sensor-three-times-bigger-super35/
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The loss of the weight and size in the body design would be recompensed by the bulk of batteries required to feed that big a sensor and the LCD that must be good enough to live up to the reputation.
Battery technology must advance first. Maybe when the supercapacitor becomes commercially usable as battery replacement.
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Hi,
I don't think so. Many mirrorless cameras have large LCDs and an EVF seems to be more power hungry than LCDs. CMOS is relatively power efficient. So, I don't think such a camera would be large.
An IQ-250 on a technical camera would essentially be a mirrorless camera. Using it with an ALPA FPS or Hartblei HCam it would even be pretty much integrated as both offer both shutter and aperture control.
Best regards
Erik
The loss of the weight and size in the body design would be recompensed by the bulk of batteries required to feed that big a sensor and the LCD that must be good enough to live up to the reputation.
Battery technology must advance first. Maybe when the supercapacitor becomes commercially usable as battery replacement.