Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Computers & Peripherals => Topic started by: richarddd on September 18, 2014, 08:16:22 am
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I'm considering getting a 13" MacBook Pro Retina, 2.6GHz Dual-core Intel i5, 8gb ram, 512gb SSD, October 2013 as a traveling and sometimes at home computer for photo editing, mainly LightRoom, but some Photoshop and assorted plugins.
I'm currently using a Thinkpad x220, but the screen is an issue, especially the resolution.
- Would the 13" be adequate or will it be annoyingly slow?
- Is anyone using this model and can give some feedback?
I see an earlier thread on the 15"
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=92366.0 Many prefer the 15" MBP for the larger screen, faster processor and dedicated graphics card, but I'd rather have a smaller and lighter machine. The 13" from 2011 seems inadequate, but the October 2013 version seems much improved.
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The Retina screens are awesome.
With the SSD, my 15" (2.3/16gb) is so much faster than my previous computers it's crazy.
The newer models are also much thinner and lighter.
I don't think you will be unhappy.
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I've seen video edits with multiple cameras including GoPros [which are a complete bitch to render out] all dumped on the timeline with tweaks and colour correction all being done in real time in FCPX with no glitches on last years 15" MBP and your new MBP should be even faster than that one. That video work I just mentioned is far more stressful than LR or PS stills work tends to be.
I'd go for the 15" myself as 13" is a bit small for my liking and the 15" is pretty light. Particularly if you want to use it at home.
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I have the earlier version and love it - I only regret I didn't max the RAM to 16GB, this is not upgradable. My 128GB SSD also ran out of free space, but I'll repleace it to 0,5GB Transcend/OWC drive, so it's not a big deal.
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Would 16gb be all that different from 8gb? On my 8gb windows 7 machine, I'm usually around 30% physical ram usage for normal editing, although I can go to around 50% usage merging to panorama or HDR in PS (assuming I'm not running much else). Would a MPB use more ram?
It's very annoying that ram and ssd are not upgradeable on the MBP.
For travel, a the difference in size and weight makes a meaningful difference to me.
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Would 16gb be all that different from 8gb? On my 8gb windows 7 machine, I'm usually around 30% physical ram usage for normal editing, although I can go to around 50% usage merging to panorama or HDR in PS (assuming I'm not running much else). Would a MPB use more ram?
More memory is always good. No point limiting yourself now, even if 8GB is ok this year, in a few years it may be a bit weedy.
It's very annoying that ram and ssd are not upgradeable on the MBP.
Indeed, now you have to max out your computer when you buy it and at Apple's premium upgrade prices too. It used to be that you could upgrade as and when you could afford to and more importantly to better than what Apple would offer too. That's what I did with my MBP.
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Actually you can replace SSD module. Only RAM is soldered on the logic board, so it cannot be replaced. In my case I'm getting out of RAM quite frequently, so I'm quite confident 16GB is the way to go.
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More memory is always good. No point limiting yourself now, even if 8GB is ok this year, in a few years it may be a bit weedy.
In a few years, I'll likely buy a new computer. Do MBP users tend to be on a slower upgrade cycle?
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Actually you can replace SSD module. Only RAM is soldered on the logic board, so it cannot be replaced. In my case I'm getting out of RAM quite frequently, so I'm quite confident 16GB is the way to go.
It's good to see you can replace the SSD. I thought I'd read that the most recent MBPs have a proprietary connector.
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In a few years, I'll likely buy a new computer. Do MBP users tend to be on a slower upgrade cycle?
We have a lot of Macbook Pros and some Macbook Airs in our office (designers, mostly, plus a bunch of writers and a photographer.) They do seem to last awhile, certainly longer than the inexpensive PCs that other departments use, though of course many of those folks travel with theirs. We usually go 4 years or more before replacement, and the old machines are still usable and get either handed down or placed in the emergency reserve.
I'm among those who would recommend maxing out the machine from the get-go, especially RAM.
Also, just be aware than Macbook Pros below the midlevel 15-in Retina no longer have a separate video card; it's built into the main processor. Given that some photo apps are written to take advantage of the GPU for processing, this could be an issue for a few people. I suspect this was done for both cost reasons and to extend battery life, which is an important metric when selling laptops.
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We have a lot of Macbook Pros and some Macbook Airs in our office (designers, mostly, plus a bunch of writers and a photographer.) They do seem to last awhile, certainly longer than the inexpensive PCs that other departments use, though of course many of those folks travel with theirs.
So cheaper PC kit that gets taken around the place doesn't last as long as more expensive Apple stuff that sits in an office. No surprise there. :P
My last PC laptop lasted as long as my MBP, but then they also cost about the same to buy. £2k
Which makes me think, Richard, why don't you simply buy a nice PC for the similar price as you would spend on a Mac? Possibly much power for your money, it was last few times I looked.
Unless there is a pressing reason to change, say to use Mac only software, there's no particular benefit. Both systems are very good and very annoying too. ;) But once you are in LR/PS etc it's hardly relevant what system you are using.
Also I'd say that if I didn't live near an Apple store, I probably wouldn't buy Apple products. But having one 15 mins away is really handy as all my Apple kit bar the barely used Nano have been back for multiple repairs or exchange. >:(
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<snip>
Also, just be aware than Macbook Pros below the midlevel 15-in Retina no longer have a separate video card; it's built into the main processor. Given that some photo apps are written to take advantage of the GPU for processing, this could be an issue for a few people. I suspect this was done for both cost reasons and to extend battery life, which is an important metric when selling laptops.
As I understand, Lightroom won't work any faster with a better GPU, although some other apps will take advantage.
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<>?Which makes me think, Richard, why don't you simply buy a nice PC for the similar price as you would spend on a Mac? Possibly much power for your money, it was last few times I looked.
Unless there is a pressing reason to change, say to use Mac only software, there's no particular benefit. Both systems are very good and very annoying too. ;) But once you are in LR/PS etc it's hardly relevant what system you are using.
Also I'd say that if I didn't live near an Apple store, I probably wouldn't buy Apple products. But having one 15 mins away is really handy as all my Apple kit bar the barely used Nano have been back for multiple repairs or exchange. >:(
I haven't been able to find a PC that weighs no more than 3.5 pounds, has a 13" screen of comparable resolution and quality and similar speed and price as the MBP. I can get nice screens with lower resolution and high or higher resolution screens that have issues with color calibration, but I haven't found anything as good.
I'd certainly appreciate suggestions as to PC laptops to look at.
I agree that the OS is irrelevant once in LR/PS. The possible exception is PS controls not scaling properly on high resolutions PCs, or have they fixed that?
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As I understand, Lightroom won't work any faster with a better GPU, although some other apps will take advantage.
PS utilises GPU, both like memory!
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I haven't been able to find a PC that weighs no more than 3.5 pounds, has a 13" screen of comparable resolution and quality and similar speed and price as the MBP. I can get nice screens with lower resolution and high or higher resolution screens that have issues with color calibration, but I haven't found anything as good.
I'd certainly appreciate suggestions as to PC laptops to look at.
I agree that the OS is irrelevant once in LR/PS. The possible exception is PS controls not scaling properly on high resolutions PCs, or have they fixed that?
I vaguely seem to recall scaling had been sorted, but best check.
Not looked at PC laptops for a while, but Sony Vaios and Asus Zenbooks are light and have had good screens. I had a couple of Vaios and at the time they were the best screens including Macs. The last Vaio I looked at had a great non-glossy screen, even better than my MBP anti-glare screen. When working particularly when away, anti glare is more important than anything else. No point having the best screen in the world if all you can see is yourself, which is often the case when working on low key images in bright conditions with glossy screens.
I believe Asus actually make Apple laptops and Samsung and LG supply their screens which kind of makes their suing each other a bit daft.
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I vaguely seem to recall scaling had been sorted, but best check.
Not looked at PC laptops for a while, but Sony Vaios and Asus Zenbooks are light and have had good screens. I had a couple of Vaios and at the time they were the best screens including Macs. The last Vaio I looked at had a great non-glossy screen, even better than my MBP anti-glare screen. When working particularly when away, anti glare is more important than anything else. No point having the best screen in the world if all you can see is yourself, which is often the case when working on low key images in bright conditions with glossy screens.
I believe Asus actually make Apple laptops and Samsung and LG supply their screens which kind of makes their suing each other a bit daft.
The Zenbook was what I was thinking of when I mentioned uncalibrated screens. Reviews indicate the Zenbook has an uncorrectably yellowish screen, for example, http://www.ultrabookreview.com/4274-asus-zenbook-ux303ln-review/
The Vaois have 1920x1080 screens and I want a higher resolution.
Searching for a windows machine is what led me to a Mac. All things equal, I'd prefer a windows PC, as it's all I've ever had and for the ability to upgrade.
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I don't particularly like Apple and would prefer a Windows laptop also. I expect I will need a new laptop in the next 6 months or so but it's difficult to find a Mac-like version in the windows environment.
The Dell XPS versions are quite close to the Mac Pros (don't know how good the screen is) but I have some concerns about their integrated batteries, they might go down in a year and be more difficult to replace than for a Mac which has a better system in place. Otherwise weight and performance seem quite competitive, probably a little cheaper also.
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The Dell XPS 13 has a 1920x1080 screen.
I was amused to read this in one of the first google hits for the Dell: "For the same premium price, you could get a MacBook Pro"
http://www.cnet.com/products/dell-xps-13-fall-2013-series/
I continue to think there must be a competitive windows laptop, but perhaps that's just prejudice.
The Samsung Ativ 9 plus http://www.engadget.com/products/samsung/ativ/book-9/plus/ has a very nice screen, but it's limited to 4gb ram and 128gb ssd.
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The Zenbook was what I was thinking of when I mentioned uncalibrated screens. Reviews indicate the Zenbook has an uncorrectably yellowish screen, for example, http://www.ultrabookreview.com/4274-asus-zenbook-ux303ln-review/
The Vaois have 1920x1080 screens and I want a higher resolution.
Searching for a windows machine is what led me to a Mac. All things equal, I'd prefer a windows PC, as it's all I've ever had and for the ability to upgrade.
The irony being Apple screens and laptops are made by what people think of as PC companies.
And at one time some Dell monitors were the same as the Apple Cinema display, but in a different wrapper. Some iMacs had NEC displays and so on.
One of the problems with Apple hardware is that sometimes some laptops screens are better than others for same model. The reason - one batch is Samsung and another LGs and maybe the LGs were flawed. It's been known that one set were iffy, but as you have no idea who the supplier was for any item, you couldn't avoid it.
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One of the things with PC laptops is that there are a lot of interesting designs out there. This monster from a few years back (http://digital-photography-school.com/lenovo-thinkpad-w700ds-review/) being one aimed at photographers. Not photographers who travel light though! ;D
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Here's a comparison between the MPB retina and the Samsung https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51sFR11-9Kk
The reviewer thought they were the most comparable (as of November 2013). Both have soldered ram, so the Samsung doesn't have the usual advantage of Windows machines of being able to upgrade ram. She prefers the MBP screen for color accuracy.
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One of the things with PC laptops is that there are a lot of interesting designs out there. This monster from a few years back (http://digital-photography-school.com/lenovo-thinkpad-w700ds-review/) being one aimed at photographers. Not photographers who travel light though! ;D
;D
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Some Lenevo laptops have colour calibration features built in (http://shop.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/thinkpad/w-series/w540/?cid=gb:sem|se|google|47345481224|uk_W530_en|UK+IIP+ThinkPad+W+Series_Direct|109957967&ef_id=NDRN7euQugkAAAbs:20140919164012:s#tab-features) and their X1 (14") has a very high res screen 2560 x 1440 and weighs less than 3lbs, only 8gb ram though.
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One of the reasons I use Macs is the lack of choice bizarrely. When I used PCs there were so many great options to get distracted by, with Apple I simply get the most biggest, most expensive one and be done with it for 5 years. As after that I then can't afford to look anymore anyway. ;)
No need to waste time reading PC mags to keep up with who makes what also saves time and money.
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The Dell XPS 13 has a 1920x1080 screen.
I was amused to read this in one of the first google hits for the Dell: "For the same premium price, you could get a MacBook Pro"
http://www.cnet.com/products/dell-xps-13-fall-2013-series/
I continue to think there must be a competitive windows laptop, but perhaps that's just prejudice.
The Samsung Ativ 9 plus http://www.engadget.com/products/samsung/ativ/book-9/plus/ has a very nice screen, but it's limited to 4gb ram and 128gb ssd.
Initially I was looking at the 15.6" which has optional 3200x1800 and similar weight and processing power to to MacBook Pro 15.
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The irony being Apple screens and laptops are made by what people think of as PC companies.
And at one time some Dell monitors were the same as the Apple Cinema display, but in a different wrapper. Some iMacs had NEC displays and so on.
One of the problems with Apple hardware is that sometimes some laptops screens are better than others for same model. The reason - one batch is Samsung and another LGs and maybe the LGs were flawed. It's been known that one set were iffy, but as you have no idea who the supplier was for any item, you couldn't avoid it.
You had made many general assumptions that almost made me think you never really worked on rMBP13.
Retina 13" has excellent display, so it's irrelevant who made it. The IPS panel is reasonably linearised to a γ2,2 TRC, white LED backlight has very well balanced red and green phosphors, so the native wtpt is very close to D65. There's an excellent anti glare layer, and also OCF layer that reduces black leaking typical for IPS type panels. It also has 16:10 ratio, so it's actually bigger than you would expect from 13" display (looks more like 15" 16:9 display). Last but not least - massive 2560x1600px resolution is well handled by HiDPI modes of OSX, so there's completely no problem with UI elements being too small.
The whole rest is light, thin, compact but super-robust, covered with some sort of hi-tech surface that is virtually impossible to get dirt, and very, very scratch resistant. You can connect up to 3 external display to 2x Displayport and 1x HDMI outputs. The large touchpad is one of a kind, with many multi gestures well supported by the system. The SSD is extremely fast (almost 1TB transfer, both write and read). And so on, and so on - even the stupid charger has smart magnetic connector, that prevents the notebook from falling when you pull the cable.
I'm also not an Apple fanboy, but - giving credit where the credit is due - it's really difficult (if not impossible) to get such good PC notebook, or at least I haven't seen anything that comes close.
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Some Lenevo laptops have colour calibration features built in (http://shop.lenovo.com/gb/en/laptops/thinkpad/w-series/w540/?cid=gb:sem|se|google|47345481224|uk_W530_en|UK+IIP+ThinkPad+W+Series_Direct|109957967&ef_id=NDRN7euQugkAAAbs:20140919164012:s#tab-features) and their X1 (14") has a very high res screen 2560 x 1440 and weighs less than 3lbs, only 8gb ram though.
No SD slot and the keyboard arrangement are major issues with the X1. Why couldn't they stick with the standard thinkpad keyboard. http://www.engadget.com/2014/03/28/lenovo-thinkpad-x1-carbon-review-2014/ I'm sure I could live with 8gb ram.
I wish they'd come out with a high resolution version of my x220. Other than resolution, it's a very nice machine.
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"Do MBP users tend to be on a slower upgrade cycle?"
This user upgrades every 5 years or so. I max out on RAM, number and speed of cores, "hard" (now SSD) drive speed and capacity, then use the machine happily for the next 5 years. I am at 4 years 2 months with my current 15" non-retina anti-glare-screen MBP, so it is time to start ignoring tempting camera gear :P
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You had made many general assumptions that almost made me think you never really worked on rMBP13.
You wrote a post that makes me think you didn't even bother to read mine.
Retina 13" has excellent display, so it's irrelevant who made it. The IPS panel is reasonably linearised to a γ2,2 TRC, white LED backlight has very well balanced red and green phosphors, so the native wtpt is very close to D65. There's an excellent anti glare layer, and also OCF layer that reduces black leaking typical for IPS type panels. It also has 16:10 ratio, so it's actually bigger than you would expect from 13" display (looks more like 15" 16:9 display). Last but not least - massive 2560x1600px resolution is well handled by HiDPI modes of OSX, so there's completely no problem with UI elements being too small.
The specs have zero bearing on my post. The post was about the irony that Apple parts are usually supplied by 'PC' companies and the screen you think is so wonderful, may be sourced from different manufacturers. And what has happened is the past is that one of the suppliers was not as good as the other leading to faulty hardware. But as you have no idea who supplied the bits all labelled Apple you cannot avoid the bad stock with the known problem.
I'm also not an Apple fanboy,
Hard to believe after this post.
but - giving credit where the credit is due - it's really difficult (if not impossible) to get such good PC notebook, or at least I haven't seen anything that comes close.
So how hard have you actually looked, it's not like there's a single shop you can go in and see all the options unlike an Apple store?
You also missed the fact that I use Apple kit. But despite that being my preference, I was being helpful with a PC user who wanted a better laptop.
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No SD slot and the keyboard arrangement are major issues with the X1. Why couldn't they stick with the standard thinkpad keyboard.
That's my view with the MBP. THe standard Mac keyboard is great, but the cut down wireless and laptop version is quite crappy in comparison. Not to mention that fact that the slightly different layouts screw up your muscle memory.
There's no delete key for example on the laptop only a backspace, so you have to you a two handed key combination to delete. Ignore any Macolyte who tries to insist the backspace key is a delete key in the same sense as it is on the PC or full sized Mac keyboard.
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That's my view with the MBP. THe standard Mac keyboard is great, but the cut down wireless and laptop version is quite crappy in comparison. Not to mention that fact that the slightly different layouts screw up your muscle memory.
There's no delete key for example on the laptop only a backspace, so you have to you a two handed key combination to delete. Ignore any Macolyte who tries to insist the backspace key is a delete key in the same sense as it is on the PC or full sized Mac keyboard.
It's concern about things like this that make me nervous about switching to a Mac.
I've read and seen a fair number of Mac reviews and comparative MPB versus specific windows laptops reviews, almost all of which mentioned the keyboard, but I don't remember anyone mentioning this. I can't remember anything but praise for the Mac keyboard and especially its trackpad (already a transition issue from the thinkpad's trackpoint nub pointer).
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The specs have zero bearing on my post. The post was about the irony that Apple parts are usually supplied by 'PC' companies and the screen you think is so wonderful, may be sourced from different manufacturers. And what has happened is the past is that one of the suppliers was not as good as the other leading to faulty hardware. But as you have no idea who supplied the bits all labelled Apple you cannot avoid the bad stock with the known problem.
It's the result that matters. I've calibrated a couple of rMBP13", and all were excellent and consistent. It's a bit worse with rMBP15" where I saw some native wtpt unit to unit variation which may be result of different panel suppliers, but didn't notice it in case of 13" version. So or so none IPS notebook display that I calibrated didn't came close to any of Retinas, period.
Hard to believe after this post.So how hard have you actually looked, it's not like there's a single shop you can go in and see all the options unlike an Apple store?
You also missed the fact that I use Apple kit. But despite that being my preference, I was being helpful with a PC user who wanted a better laptop.
Apple makes a lot of crap, like iMac 27" where the display eventually fails (sooner or later), I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. To put it in polite words - I'm also totally not impressed by any of my iPhones (3,4,4s,5) reliability, they always broke short after warranty expires.
My late 2012 Retina MBP 13" is another story - it works flawlessly under very heavy use, and after almost 2 years still looks like new - apart from the dent after accidental fall on concrete from 120cm/48" height.
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It's concern about things like this that make me nervous about switching to a Mac.
I've read and seen a fair number of Mac reviews and comparative MPB versus specific windows laptops reviews, almost all of which mentioned the keyboard, but I don't remember anyone mentioning this. I can't remember anything but praise for the Mac keyboard and especially its trackpad (already a transition issue from the thinkpad's trackpoint nub pointer).
The trackpad is absolutely wonderful, I have one for my MacPro too. PC trackpads were better for a while, but after they introduced the large trackpad and embraced gestures they are the best currently - once you've altered it from the dreadful defaults that is. Not sure why the default setting on all trackpads [not just Apple's] are so bad, but that's probably the reason so many people hate trackpads. It's quite a faff to get the various gestures combinations sorted with a trip to accessibility settings needed if I recall correctly.
If you do swap, change the Control and Command keys around. Not only is it like Windows layout, but way more ergonomic than default setting. You can also turn off caps lock, which is one of my favourite OSX features over Windows it has to be said. Sometimes it's the the little things that matter most. ;D
As it happens I had to get a new key sorted for car and place was near the Apple store, so I had a wander in to check out the laptops as I was thinking about upgrading soon and discovered that Apple have dropped the antiglare option, so they only offer the dreadful mirrored version now. :o Which are quite frankly shite. I tried working on a train with a glossy screen on one occasion, all I could see was myself. Friends who have iMacs with the same awful mirror finish have to close all the curtains and keep lights low to avoid annoying reflections. I'm seriously annoyed about this as Apple have completely given up of pro users who need to see what they are working on, rather than themselves. If I can't get one with with the accurately named anti-glare screen, I too may be looking for a new PC laptop.
Had a glance at the new phones too and even though I wear X-large or XX-Large gloves, I found even the 'smaller' one too big to use one handed as I like to. So not a good day's browsing. :(
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It's the result that matters. I've calibrated a couple of rMBP13", and all were excellent and consistent. It's a bit worse with rMBP15" where I saw some native wtpt unit to unit variation which may be result of different panel suppliers, but didn't notice it in case of 13" version. So or so none IPS notebook display that I calibrated didn't came close to any of Retinas, period.
Still missing the point. If you get a duff screen, it's duff. The first versions of the Retina model used an IPS panel from LG, which had issues with ghosting where objects burned into the display.
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Still missing the point. If you get a duff screen, it's duff. The first versions of the Retina model used an IPS panel from LG, which had issues with ghosting where objects burned into the display.
But we're discussing 13" model, which AFAIK didn't have any issues. There were/are problems with iMac 27" displays. There were problems with early 15" Retina displays, as there were (serious and terminal) problems with nVidia GPU's in 15" rMBP. But are you aware of any problems with 13" rMBP?
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Duh! Go back read all the words in the posts, in the right order.
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I don't post often in this section but will add my 2Cents. I own PC's and Mac's..... PC's for all my desktop and power needs and Mac's for portability. The reason?..... If my Mac goes out its a 2 minute phone call, the box is at my door the next morning and is overnight'ed to Mac for repair. Its back to me within 48 hours and no need to go to the Apple store/zoo. I just don't think there is any other manufacturer that offers such unbelievable service. That's it in a nutshell.
Victor
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Actually in the UK/Europe the £280 you pay for Applecare should be mostly covered by normal warranties - which can last up to six years. Not that Apple honour their warranties, they've been taken to court in the Eu for not honouring EU mandatory warranties and I've seen them charge customers [a lot] for failed iPhone/iPad batteries that they should not have.
Extended warranties like Applecare, that shops try and sell people are generally seen as a con here in the UK.
In the US however I gather warranties are nowhere near as good as here.
Having said that the service I've had in my local Apple store on the whole has been very good indeed.
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I'm considering getting a 13" MacBook Pro Retina, 2.6GHz Dual-core Intel i5, 8gb ram, 512gb SSD, October 2013 as a traveling and sometimes at home computer for photo editing, mainly LightRoom, but some Photoshop and assorted plugins.
I'm currently using a Thinkpad x220, but the screen is an issue, especially the resolution.
- Would the 13" be adequate or will it be annoyingly slow?
- Is anyone using this model and can give some feedback?
I see an earlier thread on the 15"
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=92366.0 Many prefer the 15" MBP for the larger screen, faster processor and dedicated graphics card, but I'd rather have a smaller and lighter machine. The 13" from 2011 seems inadequate, but the October 2013 version seems much improved.
Getting back to the original questions...
I am using both a 15" MBP and a 13" MBAir (which, 2months ago, replaced a 5-year-old 13" MBP). All three have performed flawlessly with LR and my 40mp+ D800E raw files but they would all perform faster with 16GB of RAM, so that's the one recommendation I would make: max out on RAM. The air is definitely faster in every regard due to the SSD.
I must admit that I now look upon my 15" MBP as a "desktop" given the size and weight difference compare to the MBAir, but I do appreciate the larger screen size. The best of both worlds would be a 15" MBAir!