Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Paul_Claesson_HasselbladUS on September 16, 2014, 10:01:29 am
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The new model – a feature-rich upgrade to the H5D-50c CMOS unit launched earlier this year – provides photographers with more freedom than ever before, thanks to an innovative Wi-Fi module.
The H5D-50c with Wi-Fi makes it possible for users to fully control the camera and browse/view images on iPhone/iPad on location via Phocus Mobile software, without the need for a computer. It also features a ‘Live View’ function, allowing photographers to see and zoom in on a live image on the rear LCD even when the camera is untethered.
The new model will be available first in Europe at the end of November and will retail at $28,500 excl. tax.
Michele Channer, Hasselblad International Sales Director said: “When we launched the new H5D-50c CMOS camera earlier this year we promised photographers ultimate image quality,
regardless of lighting conditions. Now we have developed a unique Wi-Fi upgrade for this camera enabling photographers to work unplugged but still very much connected.”
She added: “Now users can enjoy total freedom – direct camera control and image browsing, without a computer in sight. Our innovative ‘Live View’ functionality is another first for us. Previously photographers could not directly see at the back what they could see through the lens.
And of course this new model boasts all the functionality of its sibling, including a 50Mpixel CMOS sensor and excellent high ISO performance at up to ISO 6400.”
New features on the H5D-50c with Wi-Fi include:
- Wi-Fi: Control the camera and browse/ view images on iPhone or iPad, even on location.
- Live View: See a live image on the rear LCD even when the camera is untethered.
- Capture rate: The capture rate now enables 50 captures per minute.
- Longest exposure time: The longest shutter speed is now 34 minutes. And no extra black exposure is necessary.
- Film: Now you can use film magazines on the H5D-50c.
- Spirit level: Employ the built-in electronic spirit level even in tethered mode.
- Display modes: Select different display modes even when the camera is tethered.
- ISO and White Balance: Settings now available on viewfinder display.
Between January and March 2015 Hasselblad is offering photographers the opportunity to upgrade their H5D-50c model for the new Wi-Fi version for $1,000.
All new features (except Wi-Fi) will be available to H5D-50c and CFV-50c owners as a firmware upgrade shortly after the photokina trade show event.
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/news1/2014-09-16_h5d-50c_wi-fi.aspx
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Live view directly in the untethered back is great news. I wasn't sure if Hasselblad's digital back platform had the performance to do it, but here it is, that's nice!
Any indications of what the quality of this live view is? Is it as good as any modern DSLR, ie ~30 frames per second, and almost "night vision" in low light? Or is it only a few frames per second and only working in a narrow ISO range?
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now the CFV would make more sense with having live view on it - will you be able to use magnification or are there any other manual focus aids?
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Good announcement from Hasselblad! Better value than Phase One or Leica IMO.
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Any indications of what the quality of this live view is? Is it as good as any modern DSLR, ie ~30 frames per second, and almost "night vision" in low light? Or is it only a few frames per second and only working in a narrow ISO range?
I have not had an opportunity to test the H5D50c WiFi camera first hand with Live View. I will say the Live Video with the H5D50c (CMOS) when tethered (Phocus) is most impressive.
I will confirm with our corporate office what the fps is, i hesitate to provide inaccurate information.
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Great news and great to see Hasselblad getting their ass in gear. Now for a new larger sensor back that can work properly on view cameras. At least it's a right step. Really excited to see examples of 34 minute exposures without a dark frame. That is huge
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I agree great to see live view and wifi on a hasselblad. I am still on the fence on upgrading my H4D 50 - not sure about the crop of 1.3 on my lenses, curious about battery life and still the same old LCD on the back. Not sure why they are using the LCD that is so old. Minor issue I guess. I would like more MP and may wait for the next round to upgrade. I mostly sell panoramic images from my Horseman so I can be patient.
Steven
http://www.friedmanphoto.com (http://www.friedmanphoto.com)
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Possible that the H5D-50c actually shipped with what turned into the H5X body? Interesting to see if Phase backs will work on it :D
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- Capture rate: The capture rate now enables 50 captures per minute.
Why has the capture rate dropped from the original 50c which was listed as 1.5 fps to the above?
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Ben I imagine it was 1.5fps until you hit a buffer..
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Thanks Nick.
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New back is 50 captures per minute. That's 1.2 fps and that's faster than the original 50C which is 1.5 fps.
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Hi Chris,
Surely 1.2 fps is 72 captures per minute? If you can only do 50 captures in 60 seconds each capture would have to be longer than one second, so thats about 0.9 fps. A bit mind bending I know... The original was 1.5 fps which would be 90 captures per minute. Or have I got this totally wrong?!
Ben
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Your right Ben.
But often the cameras buffer isnt big enough to keep shooting at the highest frame rate. Guessing you get 1.5 fps for a bit, then some slowdown.
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The Frames Per Second rate is 1.5 FPS on both versions of the H5D-50c.
The Continuous Sustained Capture Rate combines the Frames Per Second rate + Memory Buffer + Write Speed of the Camera + Write Speed of the Memory Card in use. This is the "Captures Per Minute" rating. It gives you a guide as to what to expect if you keep shooting continuously for a minute.
The H5D-50c with the initial firmware was specified at 1.5 FPS / 35 Captures Per Minute
The new firmware is specified at 1.5 FPS / 50 Captures Per Minute. In other words, the new firmware has the same 1.5 FPS rate with an improved sustained capture rate.
I am assuming that the new firmware increases the write speed from the camera to the card. Please note that this will vary with the CF card used. You will need a fast card to maximize the continuous sustained capture rate.
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Is the wifi connection to the ipad/iphone direct? Or does it need to have an existing wifi running?
This would be really helpfull at outdoor shootings, where I don't like to bring the computer tethered(which causes me problems at cable shake in phocus).
And it would pay a little bit off for the crappy screen of the H5d series(hello, we are in 2014, and pay 27kUSD for this piece).
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Whoops! You're right, it's 1.2 seconds per capture (spc) and not 1.2 fps. No Hasselblad (that I know about) shoots 1 fps (60 images per minute) but are usually 1.5 spc or 35-40 images per minute.
Chris
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Possible that the H5D-50c actually shipped with what turned into the H5X body? Interesting to see if Phase backs will work on it :D
Hasselblad started shipping H5D40 and H5D50 cameras on January 31, 2013 and started shipping the H5D50c on March 3, 2014.
The H5X is an update from the H4X camera and will accept third party digital backs from Leaf and Phase as well as the HM16-32 film magazine and H5D digital magazine.
H5D50c Press release (http://press.hasselblad.com/media/16036/2014-03-03_pr_h5d-50c-launch_en.pdf)
H5D press release (http://press.hasselblad.com/media/9025/2012-09-11_pr_hasselblad-h5d-series_en.pdf)
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Hasselblad started shipping H5D40 and H5D50 cameras on January 31, 2013 and started shipping the H5D50c on March 3, 2014.
The H5X is an update from the H4X camera and will accept third party digital backs from Leaf and Phase as well as the HM16-32 film magazine and H5D digital magazine.
H5D50c Press release (http://press.hasselblad.com/media/16036/2014-03-03_pr_h5d-50c-launch_en.pdf)
H5D press release (http://press.hasselblad.com/media/9025/2012-09-11_pr_hasselblad-h5d-series_en.pdf)
Will they be selling the H5 backs with an H5X camera if one prefers the H5X than the dedicated body? ...Will they sell the H5 backs (especially the 50ms-c and 200ms-c) as separate products for those that want to use the backs on a view camera?
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@paul - any idea when these and the X will ship?
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Live view directly in the untethered back is great news. I wasn't sure if Hasselblad's digital back platform had the performance to do it, but here it is, that's nice!
Any indications of what the quality of this live view is? Is it as good as any modern DSLR, ie ~30 frames per second ... Or is it only a few frames per second and only working in a narrow ISO range?
Live View will show a 100% full resolution image at approx 10-11 frames per second. This will be good enough for focusing. You are able to zoom into the image.
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Will they be selling the H5 backs with an H5X camera if one prefers the H5X than the dedicated body? ...Will they sell the H5 backs (especially the 50ms-c and 200ms-c) as separate products for those that want to use the backs on a view camera?
Hasselblad is maintaining the integrated H5Dxx camera solutions where the body and backs are calibrated together to ensure optimum performance. Each H5D system has been calibrated for UltraFocus and UF has been available since the H3D in 2006. The H5D represents the 6th generation of HxD camera and Hasselblad has learned a great deal through development and integration starting with the first H1D in 2004 to the present H5D in 2014. H5D digital backs are not sold separately.
You are able to remove the digital magazines from the H5D and use it on a technical camera. We offer a battery adapter for those that wish to work untethered and of course tethering to Phocus is also an option.
Prior to the H5X was the H4X and this camera accepted the Hasselblad HM 16-32 film magazine and third party digital backs. The Hasselblad photographer who owned an H4D body had the option to purchase a spare H4D body through their dealer and Hasselblad would calibrate UltraFocus so the digital magazine worked on two H4D bodies. We also offered the spare bodies for the previous models, H3D and H3DII. A spare body solution for the current cameras at that time have been available since 2006, though the company has not spent much time promoting this fact. When the introduction of the H5X, Hasselblad has eliminated the need for a spare H5D body as the exiting H5D digital magazine will work on the H5X and we can calibrate UltraFocus for the H5X and H5D digital magazine.
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@paul - any idea when these and the X will ship?
Doug, the H5X should arrive in a matter of weeks and I anticipate the H5D50c WiFi shipping in December 2014.
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Awesome, preordered mine and I have zero patience. Thanks!
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Hasselblad has been killing it lately. Opening the H4x, announcing H5X, and now this. Kudos, Hasselblad.
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Hasselblad is maintaining the integrated H5Dxx camera solutions where the body and backs are calibrated together to ensure optimum performance. Each H5D system has been calibrated for UltraFocus and UF has been available since the H3D in 2006. The H5D represents the 6th generation of HxD camera and Hasselblad has learned a great deal through development and integration starting with the first H1D in 2004 to the present H5D in 2014. H5D digital backs are not sold separately.
You are able to remove the digital magazines from the H5D and use it on a technical camera. We offer a battery adapter for those that wish to work untethered and of course tethering to Phocus is also an option.
Prior to the H5X was the H4X and this camera accepted the Hasselblad HM 16-32 film magazine and third party digital backs. The Hasselblad photographer who owned an H4D body had the option to purchase a spare H4D body through their dealer and Hasselblad would calibrate UltraFocus so the digital magazine worked on two H4D bodies. We also offered the spare bodies for the previous models, H3D and H3DII. A spare body solution for the current cameras at that time have been available since 2006, though the company has not spent much time promoting this fact. When the introduction of the H5X, Hasselblad has eliminated the need for a spare H5D body as the exiting H5D digital magazine will work on the H5X and we can calibrate UltraFocus for the H5X and H5D digital magazine.
Do you really expect to recover if you follow the same policy as before? ...I very much doubt it! For Hasselblad selling the H5 backs with H5X camera body and selling the H5 backs to whom ever would like to buy one, is only adding extra customers... If you don't want them, ...so may be it! ...You don't have to stop offering the H5 systems to apply to a new market, you obviously don't need the extra customers coming into the firm! ...well, you know better! ...its your capital that is destroyed after all.
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Paul
"Good enough for focusing" when asked how the new live view compares to the best live view presently available is a politicians answer not an actual answer. I regularly suffer with the present Hasselblad live view on a regular basis. It is barely usable for focus and only if the scene / set has an extremely low lighting ratio. It is really a piece of crap compared to a Nikon I played with lately.
So can you actually answer the question in real life comparison terms? Is it as good as a Nikon or Canon? Can it handle real life set lighting ratios? Will it not drop what is 5 stops in brightness when going from full view to 100% view? Can Phocus now set and show two different focus points of 100% at the same time? (think of the ease of shift tilt adjusting focus if you could see 2 100% points at once???)
Please note that I do not even own a 35mm camera, digital or film. We use them on productions. I hire the cameras and a great operator. When I see the live view on these compared to my Blad back it makes me sad. When I have to change a sets lighting ratio to flat shit just to see anything beyond white on the blad live view it so tempts me to throw it against the wall.
So I would appreciate a real truthful answer to the quality of the "New & Improved" Hasselblad live view as compared to Canon or Nikon or Pentax Z .......... .
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Hasselblad is maintaining the integrated H5Dxx camera solutions where the body and backs are calibrated together to ensure optimum performance. Each H5D system has been calibrated for UltraFocus and UF has been available since the H3D in 2006. The H5D represents the 6th generation of HxD camera and Hasselblad has learned a great deal through development and integration starting with the first H1D in 2004 to the present H5D in 2014. H5D digital backs are not sold separately.
You are able to remove the digital magazines from the H5D and use it on a technical camera. We offer a battery adapter for those that wish to work untethered and of course tethering to Phocus is also an option.
Prior to the H5X was the H4X and this camera accepted the Hasselblad HM 16-32 film magazine and third party digital backs. The Hasselblad photographer who owned an H4D body had the option to purchase a spare H4D body through their dealer and Hasselblad would calibrate UltraFocus so the digital magazine worked on two H4D bodies. We also offered the spare bodies for the previous models, H3D and H3DII. A spare body solution for the current cameras at that time have been available since 2006, though the company has not spent much time promoting this fact. When the introduction of the H5X, Hasselblad has eliminated the need for a spare H5D body as the exiting H5D digital magazine will work on the H5X and we can calibrate UltraFocus for the H5X and H5D digital magazine.
It would be nice if Hasselblad would unlock the film magazines on their entire series of cameras. Now that the H5X exists, there is no reason to lock film magazines and whatever back presents itself as one (i.e. third party backs...) from the system.
The film magazines exist and film enjoys a revival at present. Hasselblad could be the only company supporting the use of film on their digital cameras by a simple exchange of the back. That would be nice and, presumably, only the effort of a firmware update.
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It would be nice if Hasselblad would stop thinking instead of photographers for photographer's needs... They have the best body in the market, they have quality lenses and they are the best there are in committing suicide... People want to buy from them ...but they refuse to sell! They'll only sell you if one promises to change his mind on his needs! Can't they see how many past customers they lost to Leica? Can't they see how much market they lost to P1 after they closed the system? How many more after they stopped the CF backs? Hasselblad's marketing thinking (judging from Paul's answers - if this is the official position for the future) is leading them to shrink their market further.
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My apologies to Michael and the others but ..................
Hey Theodorass
If you want an H5D back buy one. They come with a free camera body. Great deal $$ wise compared to Phase. Just please......please .........please stop going on about how Hasselblad should change their sales practices to suit your specific needs. If you want to have a real voice & influence in how Hasselblad runs their business stop ranting here. Put your $$$ where your mouth is and buy enough of the company to have a real say in their corporate direction & decisions. If you are right you will be able to buy us all a drink mate.
Ps: When you are the big boss at blad can you put get me my 2 up 100% live view points for shift/tilt focus adjustment? :) :)
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My apologies to Michael and the others but ..................
Hey Theodorass
If you want an H5D back buy one. They come with a free camera body. Great deal $$ wise compared to Phase. Just please......please .........please stop going on about how Hasselblad should change their sales practices to suit your specific needs. If you want to have a real voice & influence in how Hasselblad runs their business stop ranting here. Put your $$$ where your mouth is and buy enough of the company to have a real say in their corporate direction & decisions. If you are right you will be able to buy us all a drink mate.
Ps: When you are the big boss at blad can you put get me my 2 up 100% live view points for shift/tilt focus adjustment? :) :)
Hi Brent...
Why do you say that the body comes for free? ...is it because if one buys an H5 system he can't sell the body? In my view (and most that think sensibly) the body costs as much as an H5X body. Besides, none suggested that they should stop making the H5 systems... All I suggested is that they should consider selling the backs with H5X along it... Since all the 5-series backs are fully compatible with H5X and both are in production, there is no research expenses needed for such a decision, it's purely a marketing decision! They may even ask sales men to try to convince customers in favour of the complete system... Never the less, they could get some feedback from the balance of sales for what's more appealing to the market. Otherwise one insists to enforce customers on how they should think for optimum performance, instead of just informing of the extra qualities and let the customer decide for what's best for him... That's not a CEO's unique way of thinking... it's called common sense.
EDIT: I wonder why none can come up with the damage that such a decision would do to Hasselblad... Is there any?
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Theodoros,
Your point of view makes sense. A body is a body is a body, no reason for it to be locked down.
Also, I guess we should all apologize for Brent who has not yet internalized that in this forum we shamelessly bash cameras while remaining polite and collegial with the photographers who use them.
Edmund
Hi Brent...
Why do you say that the body comes for free? ...is it because if one buys an H5 system he can't sell the body? In my view (and most that think sensibly) the body costs as much as an H5X body. Besides, none suggested that they should stop making the H5 systems... All I suggested is that they should consider selling the backs with H5X along it... Since all the 5-series backs are fully compatible with H5X and both are in production, there is no research expenses needed for such a decision, it's purely a marketing decision! They may even ask sales men to try to convince customers in favour of the complete system... Never the less, they could get some feedback from the balance of sales for what's more appealing to the market. Otherwise one insists to enforce customers on how they should think for optimum performance, instead of just informing of the extra qualities and let the customer decide for what's best for him... That's not a CEO's unique way of thinking... it's called common sense.
EDIT: I wonder why none can come up with the damage that such a decision would do to Hasselblad... Is there any?
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It's one thing to agree with the point – in essence I happen to agree, too, although I can accept the reality of the situation and moved on – but to hear someone harp on about it, time and time again, in such an antagonistic and condescending way? I got sick of it long ago and have blocked the above mentioned members posts from showing up on my feed.
Theodoros,
Your point of view makes sense. A body is a body is a body, no reason for it to be locked down.
Also, I guess we should all apologize for Brent who has not yet internalized that in this forum we shamelessly bash cameras while remaining polite and collegial with the photographers who use them.
Edmund
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It's one thing to agree with the point – in essence I happen to agree, too, although I can accept the reality of the situation and moved on – but to hear someone harp on about it, time and time again, in such an antagonistic and condescending way? I got sick of it long ago and have blocked the above mentioned members posts from showing up on my feed.
Yes, ignore is a good solution if you feel that way. I have no problem with that. Just please, no direct insults, they are unlikely to make most people smarter, and guaranteed to make some people angrier ;)
There is some frustration evident in this repetition. MF customers are treated as locked-in cash cows. with nowhere to go without paying $10K or so. Phase and Hassy seem to be as much about paywalling their upgrades as about making good cameras.
I think it would be really beneficial if there were more actors - Leica and Pentax are real assets to the community in that sense as both have pretty conventional business models based on selling cameras and as then as many lenses as possible, not based on upgrading the expensive bodies.
Edmund
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A body is a body is a body, no reason for it to be locked down.
No it's not and yes there is. Actually locked down is not the proper word, going forward is a better term.
Edmund,
You stereotypically prove that some French really don't like the free market system, because EVERY TIME someone mentions medium format pricing or business models you lose it.
Since Hasselblad dedicated their newer cameras to be a synchronized unit for their newer digital backs, some went into uproar.
Actually the world didn't scream, new Hasselblad buyers didn't scream, it was basically just leaf/phase users that didn't like the mamiya 645 camera and wanted hasselblad to make newer bodies for their backs.
There is nothing closed about a Hasselblad h1, anymore than a Mamiya's RZ or V system. You can put any back you want on those bodies, but they're just not made anymore.
My Contax bodies hasn't been made in years and I'm not mad at Zeiss because they continue to work better today than they did when I bought them new, so options are out there and easy to find.
Actually if you want to complain ask Phase why they didn't latch on to the HY6 because it was offered to them, they just didn't like the buy in and Mamiya was cheaper to develop with.
I shake my head at this thought process of "open systems" because why would Hasselblad offer a $6000 camera to assist a competitor that sells $30,000 camera backs?
Before anybody thinks that's not fair, ask Nikon to give Canon 1ds users a kit to put a d800 sensor in a Canon, or ask Canon to offer a kit that allows all of their lenses to work with full functionality with Nikon bodies.
They wouldn't.
In the world of $3,000 Nikons, medium format is expensive.
Even the new Pentax is expensive when you add a modern lens set. That's just the way the world rolls, bigger usually costs more. Pay the price or buy a Nikon, or buy used medium format.
Used medium format is a good deal as the depreciation is on the front end and I'd much rather buy from a dealer than an e-bayer because a good dealer adds a level of support and security.
I buy RED's . . . the company is pretty good, but my RED rep changes every 6 months and I don't see any huge discounts or increase in service because RED sells direct. Honestly compared to working with CI and Steve I get 100x better service, a lot better value working through a dealer than going direct.
But this same conversation goes on in this section of the forum every week, with the same protagonists complaining about the same thing, which all boils down to price.
Professional products, professional service always costs more than consumer goods.
IMO
BC
Edmund,
You must have had bad dealer service in Paris. Maybe you should have tried peartree in London.
Still in the U.S., no dealer gives me the service of CI and I know in buying from big box stores like B+H, working direct with RED, the service I get from Steve Hendrix is far and above easy, the other's are fine as long as everything goes well, but I strongly believe in long term personal relationships with suppliers.
Maybe that's why I've never bought from Amazon.
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No it's not and yes there is. Actually locked down is not the proper word, going forward is a better term.
Edmund,
You stereotypically prove that some French really don't like the free market system, because EVERY TIME someone mentions medium format pricing or business models you lose it.
Since Hasselblad dedicated their newer cameras to be a synchronized unit for their newer digital backs, some went into uproar.
Actually the world didn't scream, new Hasselblad buyers didn't scream, it was basically just leaf/phase users that didn't like the mamiya 645 camera and wanted hasselblad to make newer bodies for their backs.
There is nothing closed about a Hasselblad h1, anymore than a Mamiya's RZ or V system. You can put any back you want on those bodies, but they're just not made anymore.
My Contax bodies hasn't been made in years and I'm not mad at Zeiss because they continue to work better today than they did when I bought them new, so options are out there and easy to find.
Actually if you want to complain ask Phase why they didn't latch on to the HY6 because it was offered to them, they just didn't like the buy in and Mamiya was cheaper to develop with.
I shake my head at this thought process of "open systems" because why would Hasselblad offer a $6000 camera to assist a competitor that sells $30,000 camera backs?
Before anybody thinks that's not fair, ask Nikon to give Canon 1ds users a kit to put a d800 sensor in a Canon, or ask Canon to offer a kit that allows all of their lenses to work with full functionality with Nikon bodies.
They wouldn't.
In the world of $3,000 Nikons, medium format is expensive.
Even the new Pentax is expensive when you add a modern lens set. That's just the way the world rolls, bigger usually costs more. Pay the price or buy a Nikon, or buy used medium format.
Used medium format is a good deal as the depreciation is on the front end and I'd much rather buy from a dealer than an e-bayer because a good dealer adds a level of support and security.
I buy RED's . . . the company is pretty good, but my RED rep changes every 6 months and I don't see any huge discounts or increase in service because RED sells direct. Honestly compared to working with CI and Steve I get 100x better service, a lot better value working through a dealer than going direct.
But this same conversation goes on in this section of the forum every week, with the same protagonists complaining about the same thing, which all boils down to price.
Professional products, professional service always costs more than consumer goods.
IMO
BC
Edmund,
You must have had bad dealer service in Paris. Maybe you should have tried peartree in London.
Still in the U.S., no dealer gives me the service of CI and I know in buying from big box stores like B+H, working direct with RED, the service I get from Steve Hendrix is far and above easy, the other's are fine as long as everything goes well, but I strongly believe in long term personal relationships with suppliers.
Maybe that's why I've never bought from Amazon.
Great post. Forum Admins should sticky this post at the top of the Forum and make it a must read before posting!
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As a Sinar 54H multishot user, I am interested in an upgrade later this year or next year and went to Photokina specifically with this intentions. I am not a pro, but I shoot the painting for my wife and some artists. I have no creative ambitions, but I need a tool.
Before, seven years ago, there were at least two players who manufactured the backs with their system of adapters: Sinar and Hasselblad. Both had the digital backs for multishot shooting. The hasseblad allowed untethered shooting and had a screen. Sinar has none.
I have the money ready for the upgrade and wonder why Hasselblad would not manufacture a stand alone 50 mpx multishot back with the adapters. I would use it on my Sinar P3 or buy a new, lighter view camera for that back. At the same time I want to use the same back on my Contax and 6008AF.
Why not?
I don't want the H5 camera, I have no interest in the Hasselblad lenses. But I am ready to spent my money for the multi shotback and the fora regulars are saying that the body is free, the value lays in the digiback.
I am confused.
Yevgeny
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The hasseblad allowed untethered shooting and had a screen.
There was no untethered multishot with Hasselblad.
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There was no untethered multishot with Hasselblad.
He never said there was... he only said "there was untethered shooting (ability)" from Hasselblad , which is true. In fact I use such a back myself.
EDIT: He also meant (without saying it) that he would buy a 50MS or 200MS on the spot... but Hasselblad won't sell him one! ...same happens with me actually... and some thousands of others. 8)
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J eke yclept Cooter,
I will let you have the last word and go back to sipping wine and gnawing at frog's legs.
Let me state without irony that I respect your work as a photographer and that I agree that the dealers you name have sterling reputations.
Edmund
No it's not and yes there is. Actually locked down is not the proper word, going forward is a better term.
Edmund,
You stereotypically prove that some French really don't like the free market system, because EVERY TIME someone mentions medium format pricing or business models you lose it.
Since Hasselblad dedicated their newer cameras to be a synchronized unit for their newer digital backs, some went into uproar.
Actually the world didn't scream, new Hasselblad buyers didn't scream, it was basically just leaf/phase users that didn't like the mamiya 645 camera and wanted hasselblad to make newer bodies for their backs.
There is nothing closed about a Hasselblad h1, anymore than a Mamiya's RZ or V system. You can put any back you want on those bodies, but they're just not made anymore.
My Contax bodies hasn't been made in years and I'm not mad at Zeiss because they continue to work better today than they did when I bought them new, so options are out there and easy to find.
Actually if you want to complain ask Phase why they didn't latch on to the HY6 because it was offered to them, they just didn't like the buy in and Mamiya was cheaper to develop with.
I shake my head at this thought process of "open systems" because why would Hasselblad offer a $6000 camera to assist a competitor that sells $30,000 camera backs?
Before anybody thinks that's not fair, ask Nikon to give Canon 1ds users a kit to put a d800 sensor in a Canon, or ask Canon to offer a kit that allows all of their lenses to work with full functionality with Nikon bodies.
They wouldn't.
In the world of $3,000 Nikons, medium format is expensive.
Even the new Pentax is expensive when you add a modern lens set. That's just the way the world rolls, bigger usually costs more. Pay the price or buy a Nikon, or buy used medium format.
Used medium format is a good deal as the depreciation is on the front end and I'd much rather buy from a dealer than an e-bayer because a good dealer adds a level of support and security.
I buy RED's . . . the company is pretty good, but my RED rep changes every 6 months and I don't see any huge discounts or increase in service because RED sells direct. Honestly compared to working with CI and Steve I get 100x better service, a lot better value working through a dealer than going direct.
But this same conversation goes on in this section of the forum every week, with the same protagonists complaining about the same thing, which all boils down to price.
Professional products, professional service always costs more than consumer goods.
IMO
BC
Edmund,
You must have had bad dealer service in Paris. Maybe you should have tried peartree in London.
Still in the U.S., no dealer gives me the service of CI and I know in buying from big box stores like B+H, working direct with RED, the service I get from Steve Hendrix is far and above easy, the other's are fine as long as everything goes well, but I strongly believe in long term personal relationships with suppliers.
Maybe that's why I've never bought from Amazon.
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There was no untethered multishot with Hasselblad.
Sorry. I am struggling with my English and I meant that in one shot mode the Hasselblad MS backs allowed untethered shooting.
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He never said there was... he only said "there was untethered shooting (ability)" from Hasselblad , which is true. In fact I use such a back myself.
EDIT: He also meant (without saying it) that he would buy a 50MS or 200MS on the spot... but Hasselblad won't sell him one! ...same happens with me actually... and some thousands of others. 8)
That is correct. I have allocated the funds for the upgrade. I talked to Sinar and Hasselblad on the show. Hasselblad were not very interested in a Russian customer. I was on their stand on Saturday. I was unable to find a person who was ready to talk about the MS backs. Maybe I should have visited them on Friday, when they had more reps there.
Edit: I believe I will get a solution from Leica/Sinar sooner. Leica listen to the customers, created a several clear lines of product and do not promote Lunars etc. alongside the pro equipment. I use the S2 with my Contax Makro for a lot of copying work when I am too lazy to use my 16-shot Sinarback on a view camera. I will cope with my two systems. But in the ideal world, I would like to have one digiback for my MF and view cameras.
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That is correct. I have allocated the funds for the upgrade. I talked to Sinar and Hasselblad on the show. Hasselblad were not very interested in a Russian customer. In was on their stand on Saturday. I was unable to find a person who was ready to talk about MS backs. Maybe I should have visited them on Friday, when they had more reps there.
I believe that Sinar will soon have a "real" LV MFDB based on Leica's new (CMos) sensor (for MS) soon... I guess Hassy "masterminds" still won't care... they don't even care for the "revolution" that the new Arca Universalis brings to the market... Which will allow C645 owners to use their lenses for DSLR (via Leica S), for MF and with view camera all the same... even for MS with the view camera (gone my beloved Fuji GX680 has...)... Hassy just don't care....
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Sorry. I am struggling with my English and I meant that in one shot mode the Hasselblad MS backs allowed untethered shooting.
Your English is vastly better than my Russian. No offence intended I just wanted to avoid any new users thinking they could shoot MS un-tethrered.
Regards
Nick-T
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Your English is vastly better than my Russian. No offence intended I just wanted to avoid any new users thinking they could shoot MS un-tethrered.
Regards
Nick-T
Thank you.
I understood.
Yevgeny
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Edmund,
I appreciate your contributions, find your writing very interesting and think your a great addition to this or any other forum.
You just happened to have a viewpoint and quote that I wanted to respond to.
I just think this forum for a long time has a hasselblad negative vibe which started when Hasselblad decided to sell their all in one systems.
At the time I didn't agree with that decision, today, in an over regulated, everybody's opinion rules world, I find it well within their rights to do so.
______________________
The Lunar. Man how everyone loves to bring that up, though the Stella McCarney Canon camera bag is never mentioned, the many Leica exotic animal skinned versions have been forgotten along with a bunch of gold edition nikons.
(http://www.canonwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/stella.jpg)
That doesn't mean the Lunar was a good idea, at least not for anyone I know, but that also doesn't mean Hasselblad is down the tubes.
I do know this.
With all the cameras I own, none of them exactly do everything I want, or I wouldn't own different brands.
But in the end, the buyer, the free market will make the final decision.
IMO
BC
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J,
I think Hassies are great cameras, really I do. I am just starting to hate all the marketing strategists in photography as much as I hate the guys who shave inches off airplane seats to make coach so horrible that you give in and fly business.
Anyway, I think it's toy time. Here is one that will appeal to you - The Sonderoptics Leica to PL mount conversion (https://www.facebook.com/cwsonderoptic) :)
Edmund
Edmund,
I just think this forum for a long time has a hasselblad negative vibe which started when Hasselblad decided to sell their all in one systems.
At the time I didn't agree with that decision, today, in an over regulated, everybody's opinion rules world, I find it well within their rights to do so.
______________________
The Lunar. Man how everyone loves to bring that up, though the Stella McCarney Canon camera bag is never mentioned, the many Leica exotic animal skinned versions have been forgotten along with a bunch of gold edition nikons.
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Your English is vastly better than my Russian. No offence intended I just wanted to avoid any new users thinking they could shoot MS un-tethrered.
Regards
Nick-T
The man said that he is using a 54H in his post... Sooo, i guess calling him a "new user" is offensive enough...
EDIT: ...in your later post (which followed the one that you've "put words in his mouth" he never said).
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I was excited by this announcement. Still am, in fact. The lack of in-camera live view was holding me back, in spite of owning a bunch of H-series lenses. But I'm a little worried. I own an Imacon Precision II scanner. It has a SCSI interface, now obsolete. When Imacon came out with the Precision III, which had a FireWire interface in addition to higher resolution, they offered an upgrade to the Precision III to Precision II customers.
I bit.
The kit consisted of a firmware upgrade, a third-party FireWire to SCSI converter, and a stick-on rubber thingy with a “III” on it to go over the “II” on the scanner. Since I’d paid a couple of thousand bucks for the upgrade, I wasn’t very happy. It seemed like the only thing of value was the firmware upgrade.
Years later, I realized what a truly lousy deal it was. Imacon stopped supporting the SCSI-based scanners in their new software. But I was covered, right? Nope. They still supported real Flextight Precision III’s, but not Precision II’s that had been made into Precision III’s through their upgrade process. They froze the driver for my scanner at a version that ran on Windows XP, but on no newer operating system.
Now Windows XP is riding off into the sunset.
If I had a Mac, I'd be fine, right? Well, no. It turns out that the SCSI scanners aren't supported on Intel-based Macs.
My $17 kilobuck scanner is slowly turning into a doorstop.
Which brings me to FireWire. That's the only interface that the H5D-xxx supports. No USB-3. No GBE. It's hard to find FireWire machines new these days, although you can get there with a Thunderbolt adapter. However, it's not obvious that Thunderbolt is going to catch on in the PC world, which is where i dwell most of the time.
Thus I'm on the fence. I'd hate to see a new Hasselblad head for doorstop-dom in a couple of years. Mebbe I should wait and see if a high-count FF sensor is around the corner.
Hmmm.
Jim
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Jim,
There's probably some VM hack for that scanner - ask some enterprise guy, he'll know, this is what they do for a living.
Edmund
I was excited by this announcement. Still am, in fact. The lack of in-camera live view was holding me back, in spite of owning a bunch of H-series lenses. But I'm a little worried. I own an Imacon Precision II scanner. It has a SCSI interface, now obsolete. When Imacon came out with the Precision III, which had a FireWire interface in addition to higher resolution, they offered an upgrade to the Precision III to Precision II customers.
I bit.
The kit consisted of a firmware upgrade, a third-party FireWire to SCSI converter, and a stick-on rubber thingy with a “III” on it to go over the “II” on the scanner. Since I’d paid a couple of thousand bucks for the upgrade, I wasn’t very happy. It seemed like the only thing of value was the firmware upgrade.
Years later, I realized what a truly lousy deal it was. Imacon stopped supporting the SCSI-based scanners in their new software. But I was covered, right? Nope. They still supported real Flextight Precision III’s, but not Precision II’s that had been made into Precision III’s through their upgrade process. They froze the driver for my scanner at a version that ran on Windows XP, but on no newer operating system.
Now Windows XP is riding off into the sunset.
If I had a Mac, I'd be fine, right? Well, no. It turns out that the SCSI scanners aren't supported on Intel-based Macs.
My $17 kilobuck scanner is slowly turning into a doorstop.
Which brings me to FireWire. That's the only interface that the H5D-xxx supports. No USB-3. No GBE. It's hard to find FireWire machines new these days, although you can get there with a Thunderbolt adapter. However, it's not obvious that Thunderbolt is going to catch on in the PC world, which is where i dwell most of the time.
Thus I'm on the fence. I'd hate to see a new Hasselblad head for doorstop-dom in a couple of years. Mebbe I should wait and see if a high-count FF sensor is around the corner.
Hmmm.
Jim
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There's probably some VM hack for that scanner - ask some enterprise guy, he'll know, this is what they do for a living.
I tried the usoft product. I couldn't find the right virtual display driver.
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=678
Maybe I'll try again someday.
Jim
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I tried the usoft product. I couldn't find the right virtual display driver.
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=678
Maybe I'll try again someday.
Jim
Jim, this is not about making the thing, it's about using it - the techies are really better at that than we are, by now. Believe me, get someone else to do it for you.
Edmund
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The man said that he is using a 54H in his post... Sooo, i guess calling him a "new user" is offensive enough...
EDIT: ...in your later post (which followed the one that you've "put words in his mouth" he never said).
How very unpleasant of you. I wasn't suggesting the OP was a newbie at all but rather that a *new* user might be confused by the original somewhat ambiguous phrasing.
I'll let you get back to your endless suggestions about what Hasselblad should be doing for you. Perhaps they'd be more interested in your opinions if you weren't still using a ten year old system. Actually I doubt it.
Now where's that ignore button.
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How very unpleasant of you. I wasn't suggesting the OP was a newbie at all but rather that a *new* user might be confused by the original somewhat ambiguous phrasing.
I'll let you get back to your endless suggestions about what Hasselblad should be doing for you. Perhaps they'd be more interested in your opinions if you weren't still using a ten year old system. Actually I doubt it.
Now where's that ignore button.
Ohhh... I see now... you suggest that Hasselblad does well not to provide solutions for their previous customers... Guess what, I also use some 20 years old stuff in my system and even have some 35 years old lenses that do well... will I replace it? ...if I find better I will!
Pitty there is no automatic rejection of insane logic posts...
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I have the money ready for the upgrade and wonder why Hasselblad would not manufacture a stand alone 50 mpx multishot back with the adapters. I would use it on my Sinar P3 or buy a new, lighter view camera for that back. At the same time I want to use the same back on my Contax and 6008AF.
Your problem is that you want a back that is multishot and with an exchangeable mount plate. That does not exist any more. The market for multishot backs is so small that there are not many options.
Your only solution is to buy an Hasselblad MS system and a plate for the H system for your P3. But you will not be able to use that particular back on your Contax and 6008AF cameras.
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Your problem is that you want a back that is multishot and with an exchangeable mount plate. That does not exist any more. The market for multishot backs is so small that there are not many options.
Your only solution is to buy an Hasselblad MS system and a plate for the H system for your P3. But you will not be able to use that particular back on your Contax and 6008AF cameras.
Why should he buy worst than he has Jerome? (spending a fortune and not achieving the ideal that suits him?) ...Do you know a better alternative than his 54H (apart from the identically spec'ed 528c) that can do as well? ...maybe E-xact can... (a little bit better) but unless he'll test it there is no other solution than to keep the "IQ-280 destroyer" he already has for what he is using it for... After all, if he'll use Sinar's "liquid" solution for LV he already has PERFECT LV... (I say this because my mate in work does use a 75H on a P3)... A 50ms or a 200ms would provide him the ability not to work with "view camera" lenses but to use his own on a Universalis if it was available as a solution... then he wouldn't have to worry about aberrations... and he would have the ability to integrate his back in single shot for his system..., the result would't be as good as he has with the 54h (in ms), but it would be close while the equipment would reduce considerably... But Hasselblad won't sell him what he needs.
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But Hasselblad won't sell him what he needs.
How large do you believe the multi-shot digital back market is?
MF Digital is a niche market and multi-shot is a niche market within a niche market.
I guess I don't know but I would be surprised if there was enough demand for Hasselblad to make its MS backs available as standalone backs and in all mounts...
... and still make money...
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How large do you believe the multi-shot digital back market is?
MF Digital is a niche market and multi-shot is a niche market within a niche market.
I guess I don't know but I would be surprised if there was enough demand for Hasselblad to make its MS backs available as standalone backs and in all mounts...
... and still make money...
It's just an example... an example... of additional sales for "ready" products that they refuse to sell... an example... You know what an example is ... right? ...that they refuse to sell in more than the example... is the fact!
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@ Jerome
@ Theodoros
Sinar still offer the adapters. I can buy a Sinar back, upgrade my lenses, buy a control unit and forget about the Hasselblad and shoot film on my Contax. I have a db20 for my 6008AF.
I have the Sinarback 54 Н and I am happy, the quality is very good, I have the studio in the basement and my camera on the Foba stand is stable enough for the 16 shot shooting, if I need the quality. But I have to use Captureshop, very old and if stable SW. The back is FireWire 400 and I keep an old laptop for the camera. The new SW from Sinar is wonderful, but it does not support my old back.
The P3 is a very good camera and I enjoy the full integration with my back. The problem is that I do not need too much of movements for copying work and I want something lighter to shoot outside. 4 shot at 50 mpx shall be enough.
Eventually I will have to upgrade.
I tried the Hasselblad software and liked the workflow. I remember the Hasselblad MS stand alone backs and wanted to explore the Hasselblad solutions.
I am just surprised that there is only one player, Sinar. And you might be right, the multi shot market is too small.
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"How large do you believe the multi-shot digital back market is?
MF Digital is a niche market and multi-shot is a niche market within a niche market."
Yes, I understand that. The MS market have always been small.
Raison d’être of Medium Format Digital is ultimate quality of the image, in my view. And it is sad if the MultiShot
cottage industry is passing away. :(
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I have long been a fan of multi shot. Back in the day (6MP back) the difference between single and 4 shot was huge. Over the years that difference has narrowed considerably but it is still there. For me shooting mostly food there is not enough of a difference to justify multi-shot (plus of course food moves). Were I still shooting whiskey bottles and room sets then I would still be using multi-shot assuming I could find clients who recognise the quality, (not so easy these days).
Nick-T
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Sinar still offer the adapters. I can buy a Sinar back, upgrade my lenses, buy a control unit and forget about the Hasselblad and shoot film on my Contax. I have a db20 for my 6008AF.
Do they? How much do they cost, roughly? I may be interested. I have an Esprit 65 in H mount, I could be interested for another mounting plate.
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Do they? How much do they cost, roughly? I may be interested. I have an Esprit 65 in H mount, I could be interested for another mounting plate.
I have never seen the Esprit. I think they are rare.
I have not checked the prices for a while, but five years ago the adapters were sold for euro 1000-1800, depending on the model.
The older adapters for eMotion and Hasselblad backs demanded the user to shim the back individually. There was a foil stack, and one had to peel off the individual foils to adapt the back to the camera. Later Sinar introduced the solid inserts for different cameras, and it became unnecessary.
I mentioned that because I had to shim an adapter for my friend, who bought the older adapter online.
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To Paul Claesson
As the Hasselblad rep here are you going to answer my questions I posted directly to you earlier on the quality of the new Hasselblad CMOS live view?
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I believe Paul stated on another forum – and he may correct me if I'm wrong – that live view is between 10 and 12 frames per second. Reports from Photokina suggest that there was minimal lag evident in beta firmware, although it wasn't as responsive as a modern Canon / Nikon / Phase or Leaf COMS back. All that tried it said it was adequate, but nothing spectacular. I have not seen one in action, so this is just recounting what I've been told.
Quite honestly though, Hasselblad didn't promise in back live view on release and shipment of the H5D-50c or CFV-50c. The only hints I heard if it coming in the form of a possible firmware up was from well connected and trusted users, not anyone from Hasselblad itself. If you ask me, this is a case of under promising and over delivering and Hasselblad should be applauded for that. There are plenty of examples, by them and other companies, of doing the opposite and that never does anyone any favours.
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My questions to Paul about live view never concerned frame refresh rates or viewing on the digital back screen. I shoot still life in studio and always tethered. Before I worry about how slow my finger moves into a set I need to first be able to see anything on the tethered live view.
The big problem with the present live view on CCD backs is that it basically can only handle a lighting dynamic range of about 3 stops before it starts to freaky blow out. Looks like a bad old polaroid missing image over parts of it. Park a big soft box over a scene it is fine. Flat floro room light it is fine. Copy light a painting or wall it is fine. Anything much else and it blows out. A scene with a range of highlight (255s to 253s) to shadow (4s to 0s) on a capture will blow out the video to freaky bad old polaroid look.
Beautiful effective dynamic range with a slow frame refresh rate would be like a slow gif, but usable. High refresh frame rate and very low dynamic range means blown out view, which is hopelessly unusable.
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My questions to Paul about live view never concerned frame refresh rates or viewing on the digital back screen. I shoot still life in studio and always tethered. Before I worry about how slow my finger moves into a set I need to first be able to see anything on the tethered live view.
The big problem with the present live view on CCD backs is that it basically can only handle a lighting dynamic range of about 3 stops before it starts to freaky blow out. Looks like a bad old polaroid missing image over parts of it. Park a big soft box over a scene it is fine. Flat floro room light it is fine. Copy light a painting or wall it is fine. Anything much else and it blows out. A scene with a range of highlight (255s to 253s) to shadow (4s to 0s) on a capture will blow out the video to freaky bad old polaroid look.
Beautiful effective dynamic range with a slow frame refresh rate would be like a slow gif, but usable. High refresh frame rate and very low dynamic range means blown out view, which is hopelessly unusable.
CMOS backs are much better than ccd for LV Brend... Sinar, has developed a system that one can have su-pe-rb LV via a CCD back, (either old or modern), but it requires a P3 and the dedicated accessories to it, as well as a Sinarback fitted (so that the software will respond)... It is a beauty but it is expensive and needs using a back that can't be used untethered... (which makes it even more expensive). My guess is that the new Sony sensor will be years ahead in LV focusing... but I will wait to see Sinar's respond which I suspect will be based on the sensor that the Leica S (007) will be using before I move into solving the matter... For now, I use a Fuji gx680 and do the focusing via the VF (the traditional way). I think that it's too early to rush things and I do believe in long term solutions.... My opinion is (if you DON'T use MS) to use a Sony A7 (instead of an MFDB) on one of the new "compact" view cameras and wait for things to develop... Rushing things has never being a good advisor for pros... One thing is for sure, we are in front of a revolution with LV ability of MFDBs that CMOS brings and if Hasselblad will not fully "open" their system, they won't be able to follow... They have to be advised by photographers in Hasselblad (if they are to survive) so that they can see the whole picture... Marketing boys won't help them, nor the H5X, neither their stupidity of thinking of themselves that they may require from the market to think of them as "by definition the leaders"... In Hasselblad they are well in front of competition (not from Sinar though) in technology as to provide solutions but they only see "PHAMYIA" as the "enemy" that has damaged them... The truth is that "they've damage themselves" while they could have (and still can if they "wake up") "crushed" the competition years ago... Yet, Ebay is full of Hassy H on sale for silly prices (without lenses) from people that replace their 'Blads for Leica "S" and if Sinar will provide a cheep (and capable) MFDB with good LV ability, it's a bye-bye story for both Hassy and Phamyia...
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Theodorass I asked my questions specifically to Paul Claesson as he seems to be on here running PR for Hasselblad. As Paul most likely has seen the LV on the new 50c ms, and every other LV in the market he may actually be able to subjectively answer the questions. Have you actually seen the LV on the 50c ms? If not your opinion on the LV of the 50c ms is worthless.
If I wanted more of your opinions on Hasselblad's past business decisions for the tenth time I would ask you. However I did not ask you. Did I? Maybe open your own thread specific to that subject?
Cheers
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Theodorass I asked my questions specifically to Paul Claesson as he seems to be on here running PR for Hasselblad. As Paul most likely has seen the LV on the new 50c ms, and every other LV in the market he may actually be able to subjectively answer the questions. Have you actually seen the LV on the 50c ms? If not your opinion on the LV of the 50c ms is worthless.
If I wanted more of your opinions on Hasselblad's past business decisions for the tenth time I would ask you. However I did not ask you. Did I? Maybe open your own thread specific to that subject?
Cheers
1. My name is not Theodorass... ???
2. I haven't (yet) tried a 50ms myself, but my partner at work uses a fully equipped P3 with 75H back (the system has superb LV) and I did have some info from people that do use equally equipped P3s and H-systems along it, that did try the 50ms on their P3 and say that it is ...close and good enough (same as Paul answered you). ;D
3. The conversation here is not your own... there are other people (with less aggressive attitude than your stupid arrogance) reading, that can "filter" better than you the provided to them information through the discussions they read... :'(
4. I don't think that will get an answer from Paul at all... If you are not satisfied from the answers you get in forums, I suggest to go to a dealer and try the 50c yourself... no answer can replace what you consider (if any) as adequate... :P
5. In forums, one doesn't need your approval to quote you or to reply to you... :-*
EDIT: ...Or to use your post as a "platform" to develop the conversation further... ;D
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Using terms like "Theodorass" & "stupid arrogance" is a quick way to get banned - which you both will be if this continues.
Chris
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Hi,
I see Chris's point. Why not calm down and share good information without invectives?
Best regards
Erik
Using terms like "Theodorass" & "stupid arrogance" is a quick way to get banned - which you both will be if this continues.
Chris
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+1. Let's have more light and less heat.
For some reason, every time things get a bit unpredictable here somebody says "shrimp" - it's easy to know how you start but sometimes even the smartest guys end up with ... more :)
Edmund
Hi,
I see Chris's point. Why not calm down and share good information without invectives?
Best regards
Erik