Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Robert Ardill on September 11, 2014, 08:12:12 pm
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Hi,
Has anyone come across a matte paper that has a gamut anywhere close to sRGB, especially in the reds and oranges? Also with a DMax of 1.8 or better? I will be printing on an HPZ3100 with matte black inks.
Thanks
Robert
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Three come to mind:
1. Canson Arches amazing dmax, on matte ink. Very nice textured look also. No OBA
2. Breathing color 600MT, a bit cheaper than Canson but also very nice.
3. Epson Watercolor Radiant White, a bit heavy in weight, but the standard that most inkjet papers of this type are based on.
Paul
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You could try the new Exhibition Watercolor from Epson
It does have a heavy texture
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I would have to go back and look at my test print but as I recall Hahnemuhle William Turner would fit your needs. It has a nice texture and I've done a fair amount of printing with it. If you are interested send me a PM with a mailing address and I can get several letter size sheets off to you so you can test it yourself.
Alan
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Correcting my first post, Epson's Watercolor Radiant White is now called Exhibition Water Color.
Paul
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Thanks for your suggestions!
The problem is that as far as I can make out, no matte paper has a decent Dmax or is much good in the reds/oranges/violets. Here for example is the Hahnemuhle William Turner (4880 profile from Epson):
(http://www.irelandupclose.com/customer/LL/HFA-WT-4880.jpg) (http://www.irelandupclose.com/customer/LL/HFA-WT-4880-DEN.jpg)
Other papers like the Epson Radiant White (seems to be called 'Exhibition Watercolor Paper Textured' now) are slightly better in some areas and slightly worse in others, but all these papers have a Dmax of under 1.6 ... which is probably par for the course for matte papers.
I can live with that, sort of, but the weakness in the reds/purples is really a problem. In comparison, a paper like the Canson Platine Fibre Rag (which is not a matte paper) has a Dmax of nearly 2.2 and covers most of sRGB and a good bit a AdobeRGB (and exceeds both in areas).
Alan, many thanks for offering some sheets of the William Turner ... but I'm in Ireland (and I guess you're in the U.S).
What I'm doing at the moment is printing the less saturated images on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and Epson Watercolor Radiant White and the more saturated ones on Canson Platine.
If anyone is interested in trying out a problematic image on some watercolor paper, you can download it here: http://www.irelandupclose.com/customer/LL/Poppies#4.jpg (http://www.irelandupclose.com/customer/LL/Poppies#4.jpg)
Where there's a real flattening is in the darker reds on the large flower: the whole flower ends up looking quite flat using a matte paper:
(http://www.irelandupclose.com/customer/LL/Poppies4-S.jpg)
Printed on Canson Platine it looks great ... but then it looks more like a print of a watercolor than a real watercolor.
Cheers,
Robert
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You are right by its nature matte black will have less DMAX than platine with PK. However the Canson Arches gives it a good run. Try it in a small sheet pack.
Paul
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Robert,
Sorry that you are in Ireland, postage would be more than you just buying a small package of the paper to try it. You are not going to get much more of a Dmax on any matte paper relative to a gloss paper. Most papers labeled "bright white" or "radiant white" likely have fluorescent whitening agents in them. You can go to Ernst Dikla's site and see if he has spectral data on the paper of interest. I looked up my Dmax data and William Turner came in at 1.65 whereas I get 2.3 for Ilford Gold Fiber Silk and 2.4 for Museo Silver Rag (measurements done using an i1Pro and ArgyllCMS software). That's just what one has to live with. The key thing is to look at the print in isolation and don't try to compare it to the same image on a gloss paper as they really are two different ways of printing. Personally I still do a fair amount of printing on matte paper if the image warrants it.
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Thanks Paul,
I love the Canson papers, so I will definitely try the Arches. I assume you mean the Aquarelle and not the Velin?
Robert
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Yes the Aquarelle.
Paul
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Robert,
Sorry that you are in Ireland, postage would be more than you just buying a small package of the paper to try it. You are not going to get much more of a Dmax on any matte paper relative to a gloss paper. Most papers labeled "bright white" or "radiant white" likely have fluorescent whitening agents in them. You can go to Ernst Dikla's site and see if he has spectral data on the paper of interest. I looked up my Dmax data and William Turner came in at 1.65 whereas I get 2.3 for Ilford Gold Fiber Silk and 2.4 for Museo Silver Rag (measurements done using an i1Pro and ArgyllCMS software). That's just what one has to live with. The key thing is to look at the print in isolation and don't try to compare it to the same image on a gloss paper as they really are two different ways of printing. Personally I still do a fair amount of printing on matte paper if the image warrants it.
Thanks for the offer all the same Alan! I'm surprised you're getting 1.65 on the WT ... looking at the Epson 4880 MK profile it's coming in at 1.59 (not far off, admittedly). Do you up the ink level? I'll be using a Z3100 and as I have a i1Pro2 I will also be making my own profile.
I agree that you can't compare gloss papers with matte side-by-side because the look is so different, and there are swings and roundabouts. I particularly want a matte look on a textured paper because I will be printing watercolors ... but for the image above really matte doesn't seem to work very well because of the saturated dark reds. The issue seems to be more with the darker colors because of the rapid fall-off ... so a color that is well in gamut will quickly go out of gamut if it is darkened ... and the result is a flattening (similar to the flattening with grayscale, but more upsetting because it's more obvious in color).
Robert
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Yes the Aquarelle.
Paul
Paul ... do you find much difference (apart from price) between the 240gsm and 310gsm papers? The prints will be mounted behind glass in any case.
Robert
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Hi Robert,
I can't comment on sRGB as I only print black and white, but like you have been struggling to find a decent matte paper with good dMax.
http://www.dygartphotography.com/papertestcharts/014epsonhotprbright1440.html
So far the best I've found is Epson's Hot Press Natural and Hot Press Bright. I'm used to selenium toned fiber based darkroom prints and really picky about my blacks, with the hotpress and QTR I can achieve close to 1.8 (1.78) - the blacks are truly awesome :
(http://paulozzello.com/externalimages/photo.jpg)
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Paul ... do you find much difference (apart from price) between the 240gsm and 310gsm papers? The prints will be mounted behind glass in any case.
Robert
I tend to deckle my matte prints on the Arches, so I prefer the 310 weight.
Paul Ozzello brought up a good point, and I did forget the Hot Press lineup. As he mentioned the Dmax on the Hot Press bright is excellent, I compare it to Optica 1, (which has OBA) Epson claims Hot Press does not. These papers have a smooth finish so I left them out. Most folks I print for prefer a textured (true water color paper look feel). The thing about Arches, is that it holds details so well. I believe the Hot Press will show a better overall Dmax, and it does make for a beautiful B&W print (I am using Epson).
The Epson Cold press have the texture as I recall, but not as deep a black retention so a bit less DMAX.
Paul
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Paul Ozzello brought up a good point, and I did forget the Hot Press lineup. As he mentioned the Dmax on the Hot Press bright is excellent, I compare it to Optica 1, (which has OBA) Epson claims Hot Press does not. These papers have a smooth finish so I left them out. Most folks I print for prefer a textured (true water color paper look feel). The thing about Arches, is that it holds details so well. I believe the Hot Press will show a better overall Dmax, and it does make for a beautiful B&W print (I am using Epson).
The Epson Cold press have the texture as I recall, but not as deep a black retention so a bit less DMAX.
Paul
See: http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm Epson Hot and Cold Press Bright both have OBAs from the spectral data.
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Oh well. I know Optica 1 does too but I love the look.
Interesting to see that information on the Hot Press Bright however.
Paul
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Yes, the Hot/Cold Press Natural look good (just from the Epson icc profiles) and have no OBAs ... pretty much same gamut and Dmax as the Hot/Cold Press Bright (which have OBAs). The gamut volume is more or less identical to the Canson Aquarelle: however the Aquarelle has more saturated colors in the light regions whereas the Epson papers are stronger in the darker saturated colors .... which are more important for watercolors, IMO (because they are harder to achieve). As far as DMax is concerned there seems to be no difference, except that the Epson papers have a much steeper b/w density response curve, which means that these papers will have better contrast than the Aquarelle. If Paul O can get a Dmax of 1.8 that's really impressive (the Epson profiles show a DMax of 1.6, same as the Aquarelle with the Canson profile).
The Hahnemuhle William Turner looks just as good as the Epson Hot/Cold press papers though (again just basing this on the icc profiles).
This review is worth looking at: http://www.ronmartblog.com/2011/02/epson-hot-and-cold-press-papers-review.html
Does anyone have experience of using these Epson papers on an HP Z3100?
Robert
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PAUL
The old Watercolor Radiant White is not the same as the new Exhibition Watercolor paper
The new one has much more texture, is very stiff, I like how images look on it but the feeling of the paper in my hands was a turnoff for me, almost like holding stiff sandpaper. I imagine it doesn't matter much once framed, but the feeling on my hands still stop me from buying a roll
Hugo
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I've tried to find printer settings for the Epson Hot/Cold press papers for an HP Z3100, but so far without success. I can profile the papers myself, so that's not an issue, but what I'm looking for are recommendations for what HP paper type to select and what settings to use in terms of ink amounts etc.
Does anyone have experience with using Epson papers on a Z3100? Or know where to get the information needed. Epson doesn't appear to provide this information, unlike paper makes like Canson and Hahnemuhle.
I had a bunch of Epson Watercolor Radiant White sheets that I used with my now defunct Epson 4800, but I'm not really happy with the results on the Z3100 and I suspect that I have the wrong paper settings.
Thanks
Robert
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Robert,
I used this information from Scott Martin to figure out the right settings with my Epson 3880
http://www.on-sight.com/how-to-determine-the-optimal-media-selection-for-any-paper/
Alan
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Robert,
I used this information from Scott Martin to figure out the right settings with my Epson 3880
http://www.on-sight.com/how-to-determine-the-optimal-media-selection-for-any-paper/
Alan
Thanks Alan ... if there was no choice I would certainly have a go using Scott's technique, but since Hahnemuhle, Canson etc., provide full settings for their papers I won't be going near the Epson ones while I'm using an HP printer. It's strange that Epson doesn't provide settings for other printers as I'm sure they could make plenty of money from paper sales.
As an update: I had forgotten that I have sample packs of Hahnemuhle paper and I've tried the textured fine art ones ... all very nice. My preferences would be as follows for watercolor prints:
Museum Etching: This a heavy 350gsm paper with a lovely texture, my favourite
German Etching: Next best, with a rougher texture (and feel to the hand)
Torchon: Very interesting paper with a 'torchon' finish. I will be using this for some images.
Wm Turner: V. nice, but I like the German Etching texture better. The Turner has quite a sharp texture which isn't watercolor-like.
Sugar Cane: A good possible as a Hot Press type paper. It has essentially no texture (just a little :))
Albrecht Durer: This is a lightweight paper (210gsm) with a very sharp texture that I don't like. Won't be using this one.
So of these the ones that I think I will use are the Museum Etching, Torchon and possibly the Sugar Cane for Hot Press prints.
In terms of gamut and Dmax there's not much to choose between these papers. Of course they all have a fairly low DMax of around 1.6 and they are all weak in the saturated reds, like all the other watercolor papers I've tried. Still, as long as these are taken into account, the look of the prints is fantastic.
Robert
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So of these the ones that I think I will use are the Museum Etching, Torchon and possibly the Sugar Cane for Hot Press prints.
In terms of gamut and Dmax there's not much to choose between these papers. Of course they all have a fairly low DMax of around 1.6 and they are all weak in the saturated reds, like all the other watercolor papers I've tried. Still, as long as these are taken into account, the look of the prints is fantastic.
Hahnemühle Sugar Cane is no longer available, they stopped producing it about a year ago.
William Turner and the chroma red of the HP z3200 render the most saturastes reds i ever saw on a textured matte paper.
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Hahnemühle Sugar Cane is no longer available, they stopped producing it about a year ago.
William Turner and the chroma red of the HP z3200 render the most saturastes reds i ever saw on a textured matte paper.
Thanks for the info Geraldo. Could you send me the icc profile for the Z3100 William Turner? I would be interested to compare the gamut to the papers I tested today on the Z3100 (unfortunately I don't have a Z3200 :)).
Robert
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Thanks Alan ... if there was no choice I would certainly have a go using Scott's technique, but since Hahnemuhle, Canson etc., provide full settings for their papers I won't be going near the Epson ones while I'm using an HP printer. It's strange that Epson doesn't provide settings for other printers as I'm sure they could make plenty of money from paper sales.
But then they might not sell as many printers! Anyway, Epson do not manufacture papers themselves but source them from one of the major manufacturers.
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A lot of these fine art papers are very different when the ink goes down compared to pure white areas where the texture is unchanged. It is interesting that you mention German Etching vs Museum Etching, at least with Epson inks, the German Etching holds reds and detail better than with the Museum Etching.
The wood pulp based German Etching will always have that steeper texture than the softer cotton papers. And the OBA content can be a problem.
And per your original post, neither are watercolor papers, they are both etching papers.
I have to laugh when I hear Rives BFK called a watercolor paper. It has always been a printing paper (intaglio, etc) from the start. Arches Aquarelle, as per the name, is a water color paper; at least until the inkjet receptive layer went down.
Brian A
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A lot of these fine art papers are very different when the ink goes down compared to pure white areas where the texture is unchanged. It is interesting that you mention German Etching vs Museum Etching, at least with Epson inks, the German Etching holds reds and detail better than with the Museum Etching.
The wood pulp based German Etching will always have that steeper texture than the softer cotton papers. And the OBA content can be a problem.
And per your original post, neither are watercolor papers, they are both etching papers.
I have to laugh when I hear Rives BFK called a watercolor paper. It has always been a printing paper (intaglio, etc) from the start. Arches Aquarelle, as per the name, is a water color paper; at least until the inkjet receptive layer went down.
Brian A
Yes, well none of these Hahnemuhle papers have a real watercolor texture IMO. The Museum Etching is a bit like a hot press watercolor paper, but if I compare my Daler Rowney Langton or Aquafine cold press papers to the HM papers then none of the HM papers come close to the same textures as the DR papers.
I need to get hold of some Canson Arches to see what that looks like.
Robert
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Hahnemühle Sugar Cane is no longer available, they stopped producing it about a year ago.
William Turner and the chroma red of the HP z3200 render the most saturastes reds i ever saw on a textured matte paper.
Geraldo, I was thinking of maybe selling my Z3100 and getting a Z3200 as a replacement, but it looks like the Z3200 is now obsolete (although HP is still selling a few at a very good price over here in Ireland - 1900 Euros for a 24" model ... about $2500) - which presumably means they're trying to dump the last few they have in stock.
Do you know what replacement is in the line for the Z3200?
Robert
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Thanks for the info Geraldo. Could you send me the icc profile for the Z3100 William Turner? I would be interested to compare the gamut to the papers I tested today on the Z3100 (unfortunately I don't have a Z3200 :)).
Here is the link to a custom profile: http://geraldogarcia.com/provas/ImaImp_Z3200ps_HFA_WilliamTurner_310_60cm.icc
I really don't know how to explain it... maybe the profile will not show a clear advantage on the reds, comparing the gamut plot to other papers I could not see a great difference. But when we print images with strong reds on William Turner everybody says "WOW!"
Maybe is something related to the texture and how the light interacts with it creating tiny shadow areas under the "bumps", something that the frontal light of the spectrometer cannot catch. Just guessing, but it really renders beautiful and strong reds with the Z3200.
Do you know what replacement is in the line for the Z3200?
It really looks like HP has abandoned the 12 ink pigmented printers, nothing new on the radar and everybody I know inside HP says the same: Their focus is on 8 ink faster printers and latex.
The price would have to be extremely low for me to consider buying a new Z3200 today, my biggest concern is the absence of spare parts in the near future.
I added a Canon IPF8400 to our studio early this year and we are very happy with it. I still prefer the black and white of the Z and the gloss enhancer makes all the difference in the world when printing on baryta/semi-gloss media. Other than that the 8400 is quite an improvement with slightly larger gamut on matte papers and really larger gamut on glossy. The Z3200 still has a more saturated red (barely, only noticeable on the gamut plot or with close comparison of prints), but loses on pretty much all the other colors.
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Yes, well none of these Hahnemuhle papers have a real watercolor texture IMO. The Museum Etching is a bit like a hot press watercolor paper, but if I compare my Daler Rowney Langton or Aquafine cold press papers to the HM papers then none of the HM papers come close to the same textures as the DR papers.
I need to get hold of some Canson Arches to see what that looks like.
As a true watercolor paper (not inkjet coated) Arches Aquarelle, the largest selling watercolor paper worldwide, comes in three 'textures': hot pressed (in other words smooth), cold pressed, and rough. A watercolor paper doesn't have to be textured. The Langton papers are also available hot pressed.
Etching paper was generally not intended for watercolor.
Brian A
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Here is the link to a custom profile: http://geraldogarcia.com/provas/ImaImp_Z3200ps_HFA_WilliamTurner_310_60cm.icc
I really don't know how to explain it... maybe the profile will not show a clear advantage on the reds, comparing the gamut plot to other papers I could not see a great difference. But when we print images with strong reds on William Turner everybody says "WOW!"
Maybe is something related to the texture and how the light interacts with it creating tiny shadow areas under the "bumps", something that the frontal light of the spectrometer cannot catch. Just guessing, but it really renders beautiful and strong reds with the Z3200.
It really looks like HP has abandoned the 12 ink pigmented printers, nothing new on the radar and everybody I know inside HP says the same: Their focus is on 8 ink faster printers and latex.
The price would have to be extremely low for me to consider buying a new Z3200 today, my biggest concern is the absence of spare parts in the near future.
I added a Canon IPF8400 to our studio early this year and we are very happy with it. I still prefer the black and white of the Z and the gloss enhancer makes all the difference in the world when printing on baryta/semi-gloss media. Other than that the 8400 is quite an improvement with slightly larger gamut on matte papers and really larger gamut on glossy. The Z3200 still has a more saturated red (barely, only noticeable on the gamut plot or with close comparison of prints), but loses on pretty much all the other colors.
Yes ... I was on to HP and they were quite evasive. It looks like they're abandoning the 12-ink line. I guess they couldn't compete with Epson and Canon. Pity because the Z3100 (and no doubt the Z3200) are great printers. I've had mine for six years and apart from a belt replacement earlier this year I haven't had a single problem with it.
I'm not sure I can justify getting an ipf6400 ... might see what I can get for my Z3100.
Robert
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As a true watercolor paper (not inkjet coated) Arches Aquarelle, the largest selling watercolor paper worldwide, comes in three 'textures': hot pressed (in other words smooth), cold pressed, and rough. A watercolor paper doesn't have to be textured. The Langton papers are also available hot pressed.
Etching paper was generally not intended for watercolor.
Brian A
Well I'm getting some Aquarelle - looking forward to trying it.
I'm a watercolor painter so I'm reasonably familiar with traditional media. What I'm trying to do now is to make prints of my watercolors and for that I need both hot and cold press papers. However ... from a purely visual point of view ... I think using a smooth paper is preferable, with the texture coming from the photograph/scan of the painting. Otherwise there's a mismatch between the texture of the painting and the texture of the digital paper (for example paint separation/pooling occurring on the hills rather than in the hollows of the paper). Of course the feel of the paper is another matter.
I'm also v. interested in digital painting (watercolors again) ... but the same issue arises here: matching the texture of the digital painting to the texture of the paper. Papers like the HM Sugar Cane (sadly no longer available) and the Museum Etching (to a lesser extent) are good compromises because they have a nice feel with little texture. I'll be interested to see what the Canson Aquarelle hot press paper is like.
Robert
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If you haven't already, you could also try St Cuthbert's Mill, which produces several inkjet coated watercolor papers that aren't available here in the US.
I don't know about the reproduction of watercolors on smooth inkjet papers, it might work. Paper is such a personal thing. I would suggest looking the softer 'velvet' textured papers, which would retain some texture but not overwhelm the photographically reproduced texture of the original.
I think if you are going to use a heavily textured paper, you will have to use very flat lighting when shooting the original.
Brian A
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If you haven't already, you could also try St Cuthbert's Mill, which produces several inkjet coated watercolor papers that aren't available here in the US.
I don't know about the reproduction of watercolors on smooth inkjet papers, it might work. Paper is such a personal thing. I would suggest looking the softer 'velvet' textured papers, which would retain some texture but not overwhelm the photographically reproduced texture of the original.
I think if you are going to use a heavily textured paper, you will have to use very flat lighting when shooting the original.
Brian A
Thanks Brian - I'll have a look at the St Cuthbert's.
You're right about the lighting - it has to be very flat otherwise there's far too much paper texture coming through. The photograph has to show very little paper texture, just an impression.
Robert