Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: mcbroomf on September 06, 2014, 09:12:10 am
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http://www.dpreview.com/articles/4835137152/epson-launches-a3-sc-p600-printer-with-industrys-highest-black-density
http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Landing/precisioncore-advanced-printing-technology.do
I haven't gone all the way through the whitepaper yet but it looks like the new head has 600 nozzles/inch vs 720 and 2 rows of 400 vs 2 rows of 360 on the print chip.
"A source at Epson told DP Review that we should expect the Stylus Pro name to be gradually phased out as new products are launched, but was keen to stress that existing Stylus Pro models are not about to be replaced"
I wonder when we'll see large format versions...
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With current tech from Epson, I can get plenty of black. I would hope they maybe addressed:
1. Bronzing on glossy or satin with PK
2. Glossy differential on all satin and glossy media
3. PK and MK on line all the time, no more switching
That would be worth a consideration for upgrading for me.
Paul
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From this article about the SC-P600 printer:
"The 2.8DMax and a claimed wider colour gamut are produced via Epson’s new nine-colour UltraChrome HD inkset, which includes the new Vivid Magenta ink and, in this machine, 25.9ml cartridges"
Rebadging a K3VM nine color ink set with the "HD" label because the printer squeezes out a little more gamut via better variable dot placement and a PK ink with slightly higher perceptible dmax seems to confuse matters with the current UltraChrome HD ink set that already extends color gamut with additional orange and green inks. Also, no mention of a new yellow pigment with improved light fade resistance.
For the high end photographic market, a slightly higher perceivable dmax is small consolation over time as skin tones shift more purplish-blue due to more rapid loss of yellow colorant. Hence, I don't see a compelling reason to upgrade unless the initial print quality truly takes a noticeable jump forward. That objective seems unlikely given the already high initial image quality from the current Epson line of photo printers.
Edit: I was mistaken above in confusing the Epson Ultrachrome HDR pigmented set (as used in the x900 series printers) with this new name of "UltraChrome HD". Epson used the "HD" terminology first when describing its Claria dye-based ink set. DPReview described the new printer as a pigment printer. Yet After rereading the Epson press release, I didn't see any mention of either pigment or dye. So, it's really hard to say what this "new UltraChrome HD with vivid magenta " ink set really is. Could it possibly be a total dye set comparable to Canon's dye set used in the the prosumer Pro-100 printer? That would explain the high dmax on photo papers. And it would also mean Epson may now have introduced dye-based LLK and LK as well, so indeed a very new ink set for Epson. If so, keeping the Ultrachrome label for a dye based set is certainly confusing, but I seem to recall Epson has already done that with some of its dye-based mini lab printers. I guess we may have to wait for trade show reports from the floor at PhotoKina 2014 to sort it all out ::)
mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Anyone notice how small the ink carts are?
Don't throw away your 3880 yet.
Michael
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Anyone notice how small the ink carts are?
Don't throw away your 3880 yet.
Michael
My exact thought!!!
Peter
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For the high end photographic market, a slightly higher perceivable dmax is small consolation over time as skin tones shift more purplish-blue due to more rapid loss of yellow colorant. Hence, I don't see a compelling reason to upgrade unless the initial print quality truly takes a noticeable jump forward. That objective seems unlikely given the already high initial image quality from the current Epson line of photo printers.
Mark, one thing my 4900 suffers from is clogged nozzles if the printer isn't used at least every other day. I understand that this is a problem with all the x900 printers. My 3880 hardly clogged at all, and my 9800 usually produces perfect nozzle check patterns even if I haven't used it in a month; it pesters me to do a deep cleaning, but I ignore it.
If the new printers are as resistant to nozzle clogs as the 3880 and the x800 printers, I'll be a customer.
Jim
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Mark, one thing my 4900 suffers from is clogged nozzles if the printer isn't used at least every other day. I understand that this is a problem with all the x900 printers.
Wow! I must have missed the memo that put you in charge of speaking for the ten's of thousands of x900 owners! I hope this isn't the second coming, I'm not ready yet!
Just for the record, I don't have clogs, dots, streaks or head strikes because I keep my print head clean, shake my carts once a month, and keep my wiper/capping station clean. It's really that simple. My PK cart gets used maybe twice a year and is nearly 4 years old. Never a clog. My relative humidity varies between 12 to 70 percent with seasonal changes - I don't waste money on humidifiers.
And just how do you know you have clogged nozzles? It's far more likely that you have clogged filters in the damper (yes, each damper has two filter screens) which get clogged with pigment which is by design as Epson recommends you change the dampers every year. - Jim
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Michael: Yes of course I sure did notice the much reduced cartridge size and that usually implies much higher ink cost per ml. The key thing of course will be to see "by how much", insofar as for those of using higher-end papers (such as IGFS, Hahn, etc) the cost of the paper considerably exceeds the cost of the ink per sheet. To give you a feel for it, using IGFS 13*19 boxes of 50 sheets, including taxes and in Canadian dollars, if I fill one of those sheets with 11*17 inches of image content (one inch border on each side), while the paper costs me $2.55, the ink costs $1.09. The ink cost is the cost of the 200ml cartridge and the number of ml/sq.ft. expended on an average density print of those dimensions. The data for both these variables remains to be seen for the new printer model, however the "landed cost" of the ink per printed photo would need to more than double before it overtakes the paper. Not insignificant, and this will vary by user and according to a number of projections used to make such calculations, but I figure the amortization of the printer itself is worth about $1.11 for each Super A3.
Mark M-G: In a nutshell, could you give us an idea of roughly how long prints made from the Ultrachrome-HDR inkset on high quality Baryta-based papers can be kept in dark storage before yellow fading would begin to affect skin tones?
Jim: I have to say I am with you on that. I need to ensure at least one print of a real photograph or page of solid patches flows through my 4900 at the longest every three days, otherwise the nozzle check pattern will show gaps in one or more channels. If I use the printer every day or every other day the incidence of these "clogs" is far, far reduced, not eliminated, but easily cleaned out. The printer sits in a humidity range of 25% to 50%, depending. We won't know the reliability of the new set of models until they have been on the market and tested for quite a while by a fairly wide range of users under different conditions. I agree with Michael not to toss out the 3880 - but mainly for this reason. I would not buy one until I have adequate evidence that reliability is no worse than my current 4900.
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Mark, one thing my 4900 suffers from is clogged nozzles if the printer isn't used at least every other day.
I had exactly the same issues. You just have to use it nearly every day or it will clog. My 3880 literally never clogs. I made an Applescript to print a test on the 4900 every day and the clogging disappeared. But between having to keep the beast running every day, it's pretty awful paper handling for 8x11 sheet and the noise, and because the 3880 was such a joy, I ended up donating the 4900 and don't miss it at all. As Jim says, if you use your 4900 every day or run some kind of utility, the clogging issue pretty much disappears. Hopefully the next generation from Epson will fix this issue as it's a major PITA for anyone who doesn't use the product daily.
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.................. filters in the damper (yes, each damper has two filter screens) which get clogged with pigment which is by design as Epson recommends you change the dampers every year. - Jim
Could you please point me to where Epson recommends this? I ask, because there is nothing in the manual for the 4900 that recommends changing dampers every year, at least for that model, and I understand from several very well-placed sources the technology on this model is essentially the same as for the 7900/9900.
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Mark, one thing my 4900 suffers from is clogged nozzles if the printer isn't used at least every other day. I understand that this is a problem with all the x900 printers. My 3880 hardly clogged at all, and my 9800 usually produces perfect nozzle check patterns even if I haven't used it in a month; it pesters me to do a deep cleaning, but I ignore it.
If the new printers are as resistant to nozzle clogs as the 3880 and the x800 printers, I'll be a customer.
Jim
Well, it should go without saying that equipment failures or chronic reliability problems will force the enduser to another printer unit sooner rather than later, even if there's no "latest and greatest" one to switch to :-\
cheers,
Mark
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Near the top of my wish list is a 1.5 pl drop size in a 7xxx 24 inch wide format printer. The new head seems to be mostly about increased print speed, but it is also capable of 1.5 pl drop size. Maybe there is hope.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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Could you please point me to where Epson recommends this? I ask, because there is nothing in the manual for the 4900 that recommends changing dampers every year, at least for that model, and I understand from several very well-placed sources the technology on this model is essentially the same as for the 7900/9900.
Yes, I would be interested in knowing that also, I can't find any mention in the 9900/7900 manual, in fact there is no mention of the dampers. I have had at least 7 service calls on my 9900 and not once did Epson mention or have me check a damper, actually I don't think there is a way to do this without tearing the printer apart anyway.
I only ask, because, since I have owned my 9900 (3.5 years now), I have had the left dampers changed out 2x and the right side 1x so you have a great point. I have long felt that a lot of the problems with this generation of printer is the dampers/pressure or a some combination of problems. Pressurized carts go back to the 7800 I believe maybe even the 7600 or older so they are not new. But the dampers in the 9900 are pretty touchy.
I also wonder if Epson considers a damper change PM? while under 1 year warranty or extend warranty.
All of my damper changes occurred under a warranty period.
Paul
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Anyone notice how small the ink carts are?
Don't throw away your 3880 yet.
Michael
Well given that this is a 13" printer and the 3880 is a 17" DEFINITELY don't throw out your 3880 ;D
This appears to replace the 2880 so far as I can tell (paper size), and I found suggestion that it's ink cartridges are only ~12ml.
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Mark M-G: In a nutshell, could you give us an idea of roughly how long prints made from the Ultrachrome-HDR inkset on high quality Baryta-based papers can be kept in dark storage before yellow fading would begin to affect skin tones?
If dark storage is the litmus test for print longevity, then any of the dye or pigment aqueous-based inkjet inks can easily turn in 100+ year performance, even the cheapest third party dye sets. Inkjet inks don't really suffer from thermal fading issues like the colour-coupler type dye molecules produced in the processing of traditional chromogenic color photographs. That leaves the media to bear the brunt of dark storage aging such as thermal yellowing, discoloration from airborne contaminants, foxing, embrittlement, cracking, flaking, mould and mildew, insect damage, mishandling, etc. Thus, as far as baryta based papers or any other inkjet media for that matter, one needs to test the specific paper to know where the weak links in the system are and under what circumstances. Even the cheapest litho inks on acid-choked lignin-filled paper will easily "last" over a century if the right environmental storage and display conditions are met and if the collector will accept some "patina of age" as inevitable aging occurs.
I wasn't really attempting to steer this conversation abruptly toward print permanence. It's but one of many variables that go into the decision making process when buying a new printer. I was only pointing out that the new printer offering from Epson does not appear to have addressed one of my personal printmaking concerns which is the poorer light fade resistance of Epson OEM pigmented ink sets compared to Canon and HP. Epson's competitive weakness with respect to light fastness lies essentially in just one colorant...the yellow!. Seems to me like low lying fruit for Epson to quietly reformulate the yellow colorant, or to provide an alternate yellow for those of us (admittedly a minority in a minority) who truly care about print permanence.
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Hi Mark,
I happen to think longevity is a serious consideration when selecting a printer/printing system, so I agree - talking about longevity is appropriate in this thread - it is one important consideration amongst a number of others when deciding to "upgrade", including print quality, cost and system reliability. The reason I raised dark storage is that a great many people probably (and me for sure) keep their prints in proper boxes or albums where they are shut away from light unless being viewed. I'd need a castle of walls to display it all, and then who would be interested..........so I'm relieved that dark storage is not much of a challenge for the yellows. That means my grand-children will be able to view correctly what their grandfather made for many years into their futures........if they care. !!!
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Anyone notice how small the ink carts are?
Don't throw away your 3880 yet.
Michael
This looks to be a replacement for the R3000, which is a 13" printer with the same size carts. I sure won't throw away my 3880, but it will interesting to see if its replacement will prove to be as great a printer.
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Epson recommends you change the dampers every year.
This is one of those bits of imformation that I stored and now cannot find the original source. It might've been on Eric's site or one of the printer manuals, just can't put my finger on it right now. I also remember reading it here: (scroll down to the second entry by "ssimoncini" third paragraph)
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?96675-Epson-4900-Printer-Extreme-Clogging-Problem/page4 (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?96675-Epson-4900-Printer-Extreme-Clogging-Problem/page4)
The point to all this is that there are other things to consider before just condemning your printer (and all others) assuming a clogged head. Here is a quote from the InkjetMall: "Traditionally, print heads age gracefully. When there is a plug it nearly always some type of matter in the filters of the ink dampers."
Just like the oil filter on your car protects your expensive engine, the ten dollar damper filter protects the expensive head. Changing an oil filter on a car is a messy job and so is replacing a damper. - Jim
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Michael posted videos today from PP that includes a long interview (just audio though) with Epson about the P600
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/5_short_interviews_from_photoplus.shtml
Some interesting comments about yellow longevity and the new matt black, but no plans to move this to wider than 13" at present.
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Michael posted videos today from PP that includes a long interview (just audio though) with Epson about the P600
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/5_short_interviews_from_photoplus.shtml
Some interesting comments about yellow longevity and the new matt black, but no plans to move this to wider than 13" at present.
Thanks for the link to MR's interview with the Epson tech rep about the P600. I was also at the Photo Plus East show this past Friday, and I also asked a knowledgeable Epson tech guy on the trade show floor about the P600. Maybe I spoke to the same guy as MR :). I specifically questioned him on whether the yellow colorant was the same one as used in the current K3VM and HDR ink sets. I was not told the P600 ink set was "ALL NEW", but he did venture to say that the black and the yellow have been reformulated, the PK for better dMax and the yellow for better light fastness. So, although I didn't hear "ALL NEW" inks and the somewhat lame press release only seems to dwell on the better dMax of the system, I think it's very positive news that Epson appears to have quietly reformulated at least the yellow colorant for better light fade resistance.
I will start some light fade testing on the P600 ink set with various media as soon as I can, but I'm not on any of those "industry influencer" lists that companies use to give advanced access to the new stuff. I will have to wait until the P600 is available for purchase in stores. I do get a laugh when watching the Epson guys trying to maintain a straight face when saying there are "no plans" to phase this "ALL NEW" ink set into larger format printers at this time :)
cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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Jim Kasson is hardly overstaying the 900-series head clog issue, irrespective of whether every owner suffers the problem of not. I'll go further than Jim has in saying that if the new printer series does not address the head clog problem, there will be a significant loss of the not-printing-every-day market. If, like Jim say, the new prints solve little other than the clog problem, I'll be a customer. If the All-New ink set makes better looking prints than the 900's do, all the better.
John Caldwell
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After being into this interview and hearing the expression "ALL NEW" for about the umpteenth time in 3 minutes, I switched it off because I got the message: "it's ALL NEW" :-)
Now that said, and even though I'm from Toronto, not "Missouruh", I gotta see how much better the print quality is from this ALL NEW inkset relative to what I get from my 4900. Deep down below the marketing hype, I expect any improvements to be "incremental" (but I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised), and indeed the more important variables will be maintenance and reliability. I must say I'm somewhat puzzled about why Epson would launch this with a 13" model, and not at least a 17". I wonder what the thinking is.
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Hi Jim
Do you know if the 9600 has the same type of filter in the dampers?
Mine never clogs but having a car repair and motorsports background, I understand the value of preventive maintenance, those screens look very small.
Thanks
Hugo
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This is unfortunately not the case.
The rep in the video interview was little too enthusiastic IMHO about the black saving mode in automated switching, instead of taking the final step to solve the root cause once and for all. I have a bad feeling the same will happen with the future Surecolor 3880.
No round trip times were given either.
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3. PK and MK on line all the time, no more switching
..
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Hi Jim
Do you know if the 9600 has the same type of filter in the dampers?
Mine never clogs but having a car repair and motorsports background, I understand the value of preventive maintenance, those screens look very small.
Hi Hugo. To the best of my knowledge the 9600 uses dampers in pairs and each unit does have a filter screen in it. Since the 9600 uses a different print head than the x900 series, I believe the mesh size of the filter screen is larger and therefore is less prone to clogging. That's my story, I'm stickin' with it. - Jim
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After being into this interview and hearing the expression "ALL NEW" for about the umpteenth time in 3 minutes, I switched it off because I got the message: "it's ALL NEW" :-)
Now that said, and even though I'm from Toronto, not "Missouruh", I gotta see how much better the print quality is from this ALL NEW inkset relative to what I get from my 4900. Deep down below the marketing hype, I expect any improvements to be "incremental" (but I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised), and indeed the more important variables will be maintenance and reliability. I must say I'm somewhat puzzled about why Epson would launch this with a 13" model, and not at least a 17". I wonder what the thinking is.
yeah, the “new” thing got a little old, but the discussion of the blacks, the concept of dyes designed to stay at the top of the resin to increase density, and most importantly the discussion about the new yellow and substantially increased longevity all sound like a solid improvement, even if they are visually very incremental (and hopefully delivery systems that are more reliable and less prone to missing nozzles/clogs). ( Epson has lagged in the longevity area for too long now).
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Yes, it all sounds good, even if the incremental improvements are small, so long as reliability is better. To me it's odd that DMax improvement is presented as though it was the chief complaint with the prior product line, rather that the stuff many of us have been going on about on this forum from a few years now. I can't recall many people spending much time on the print quality issue in a critical way, the yellow longevity issue aside maybe. Even here though, I suspect that a yellow-longevity search would turn up many fewer articles than the clog/air entrainment issue. No disrespect in any way to the valuable work Mark is doing. To the contrary, it's probably human nature to be more focused on the here and now (temporary) issues like clogs, than to be concerned about future investment matters like ink fade; so Mark is leading the adult-end of the conversation (and conservation).
John Caldwell
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When I look at the longevity ratings (Henry Wilhelm) for prints kept in albums or dark storage for an Epson 4900, there seems to be nothing whatsoever to worry about. Some of the ratings for displayed prints, depending on the paper and the display conditions, can come up a bit short, so maybe it is those that these improvements will target.
I agree with others that the main concern raised in the forums is about maintenance and reliability, and we will only know first-hand about that with experience.
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yeah, the “new” thing got a little old, but the discussion of the blacks, the concept of dyes designed to stay at the top of the resin to increase density, and most importantly the discussion about the new yellow and substantially increased longevity all sound like a solid improvement, even if they are visually very incremental (and hopefully delivery systems that are more reliable and less prone to missing nozzles/clogs). ( Epson has lagged in the longevity area for too long now).
I've seen some prints from the new printer and the increased D-Max can't be described as a small, incremental change. The blacks are much darker than I've seen from any inkjet printer. The Epson representative said that the D-Max was 2,88. I recall measuring a Seagull paper developed in special paper developer and then selenium toned. The D-Max was 2.4, darker than any other paper that I tested. This was with a semi glossy paper. I hope that the matte papers get a solid increase in their D-Max, as well. And we all long for a better longevity and less clogging, but there only time will tell.
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I’ve been OK with dMax on the papers I use, but I’ll take your word for it ... glad to hear it may be visually more significant than it I might think.
I agree Epson’s biggest problem is on the reliability side, so hopefully the new inks and printers can improve that.
As far as the yellow and longevity, I don’t think dark storage is very relevant, and I haven’t been too worried about it, but they’ve known for a long time the yellow dye was the problem, and I’m glad to see they will be competitive now.
Will be very interested in bringing one into the store and giving it a try ...
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Let's say this printer is everything we hope for, including as reliable as the 7800/9800/3880. Now I'm in a quandary. If I get one, my 4900 will get even less use than it does now, which means it'll clog even worse.
Hmmm...
Jim
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Let's say this printer is everything we hope for, including as reliable as the 7800/9800/3880. Now I'm in a quandary. If I get one, my 4900 will get even less use than it does now, which means it'll clog even worse.
Hmmm...
Jim
Hi Jim,
I'll give you the standard economist's answer (but it's true): your 4900 is a "sunk cost". Look FORWARD at INCREMENTAL costs and benefits, not all of which are monetary.
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I'll give you the standard economist's answer (but it's true): your 4900 is a "sunk cost". Look FORWARD at INCREMENTAL costs and benefits, not all of which are monetary.
Right. If the new printer replaced the 4900, that would be the case for sure. But since the new printer can't do C-size images (my most common size), I have to continue to use the 4900, which will be acting up even more than it is now because of its need for attention. OK, I'm anthropomorphizing...
Jim
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As long as you run a couple of sheets every few days that exercise all the channels it will remain as operational as it can be. Before jumping into the new machine however, I would really like to see how visible the difference of DMax is in reality.
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Jim Kasson is hardly overstaying the 900-series head clog issue, irrespective of whether every owner suffers the problem of not. I'll go further than Jim has in saying that if the new printer series does not address the head clog problem, there will be a significant loss of the not-printing-every-day market. If, like Jim say, the new prints solve little other than the clog problem, I'll be a customer. If the All-New ink set makes better looking prints than the 900's do, all the better.
My view as well. I print more and more rarely and the 9900 is a nightmare for such usage patterns.
Cheers,
Bernard
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The big issue in my mind is whether Epson will move this new ink technology into the 3880. Based on all the anecdotal reports here (and my personal experience) the 3880 is just a great 17 inch wide printer. I still print on matte paper and a better Dmax with is appealing as is better yellow stability. One would think that Epson could role the new ink technology out to the 3880 accompanied by a driver update that addresses any issues with ink application.
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Alan, My take on Michael's interview with Epson's spokesperson did convey that the All-New intent was to move the new topology into the professional series machines. I walked away with the feeling that this A3 machine, with the built-in CD printer, was the consumer entry to be followed by the LF and 3800-sized machines using the same ink/head topology. Perhaps I'm just being hopeful, but Epson would probably not reinvent an ink series without the plan of moving the inks into a whole range of printers. Isn't there talk that the Stylus Pro name is going away, as a further sign of Epson's intent?
John Caldwell
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The big issue in my mind is whether Epson will move this new ink technology into the 3880. Based on all the anecdotal reports here (and my personal experience) the 3880 is just a great 17 inch wide printer. I still print on matte paper and a better Dmax with is appealing as is better yellow stability. One would think that Epson could role the new ink technology out to the 3880 accompanied by a driver update that addresses any issues with ink application.
Hi Alan, I was a little surprised Epson would have chosen the 13 inch format for rolling out such a new technology - surely they have their reasons, I just don't know them. Regardless, I would hesitate to believe the adaptation to a 3880 would be as easy as you suggest. I would expect the tnk delivery system and printhead may need to be varied depending on the chemical properties of the inks and the sequences in which they need to be applied.
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Yes, Mark. I thought the whole new thing was just that - new inks and delivery system. Didn't you take that away from Michael's interview?
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Perhaps I'm just being hopeful, but Epson would probably not reinvent an ink series without the plan of moving the inks into a whole range of printers. Isn't there talk that the Stylus Pro name is going away, as a further sign of Epson's intent?
Considering the huge investment it is to develop the new printer head that they use in this printer, I would be extremely surprised if they didn't use it in the next generation of LFP. But I don't think we will see the new printers next week. I think what you see is a public beta test, a bit more complicated with hardware. When they see how this printer has been received they can start to roll out the new larger printer. I hope to replace my Epson 11880 during 2015.
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Yes, Mark. I thought the whole new thing was just that - new inks and delivery system. Didn't you take that away from Michael's interview?
Hi John, what I took away is that it's "ALL NEW" :-)
It was good communication, huh - sticks in the mind - "all new", so I gotta see it.
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Yes, Mark. I thought the whole new thing was just that - new inks and delivery system. Didn't you take that away from Michael's interview?
It wasn't just new, I think I heard that it was ALL NEW a couple of times.
But when I spoke to Epson's rep here in Sweden, he said that the major change is the new printer head that allow them to use new inks. The head also has an automatic check for clogging, which sounds promising. But I have just seen the printer and some prints made from it. I hope to get my hands on one in late November for a test. But how do you test for clogging problems?
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It wasn't just new, I think I heard that it was ALL NEW a couple of times.
But when I spoke to Epson's rep here in Sweden, he said that the major change is the new printer head that allow them to use new inks. The head also has an automatic check for clogging, which sounds promising. But I have just seen the printer and some prints made from it. I hope to get my hands on one in late November for a test. But how do you test for clogging problems?
I've learned over the years that you can't. This gets revealed in time with experience under actual conditions of usage.
And by the way, what did you think of the prints you saw? Were you able to see them compared with the same photo printed on an x900?
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I've learned over the years that you can't. This gets revealed in time with experience under actual conditions of usage.
And by the way, what did you think of the prints you saw? Were you able to see them compared with the same photo printed on an x900?
Even without comparing them, I saw a better black. But it was even more visible when I saw prints from a x900. Not from the same file, though. But both contained large areas of black. So, not a small incremental change, it was an ALL NEW BLACK :)
Some might say that a deeper black isn't that important, but for me it translates into a longer range of hues that I can work with and a possibility to increase the separation in the mid tones and shadow areas. And that's important.
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Some might say that a deeper black isn't that important, but for me it translates into a longer range of hues that I can work with and a possibility to increase the separation in the mid tones and shadow areas. And that's important.
I agree with you. If it's doing that, this is a significant improvement, and whets the appetite for 17-inch + versions. But I think what you said above about the beta testing makes sense, and the more "tested" these machines are before they hit the remainder of the market the better.
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I will start some light fade testing on the P600 ink set with various media as soon as I can, but I'm not on any of those "industry influencer" lists that companies use to give advanced access to the new stuff. I will have to wait until the P600 is available for purchase in stores. I do get a laugh when watching the Epson guys trying to maintain a straight face when saying there are "no plans" to phase this "ALL NEW" ink set into larger format printers at this time :)
I hope to get my hands on a printer in the middle of November, so if you haven't had a chance to get som sample prints before that I will print some and send it to you. As you know, we at Projektor is really interested in the longevity of the prints that we deliver. The tests that you did on our ImagePrint samples were very interesting and showed very clearly that the yellow ink is the weak chain for Epson.
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It will be interesting to see how this printer pans out. As a relatively infrequent printer I'd like to be satisfied that clogging is not an issue, though when I read that the new print head auto-detects clogs it does bother me that this might be a fix for a problem not inherently solved, and a means to sell more ink lost through head cleaning! Can't help being cynical here.
I'm also keen to see how well it handles the thicker papers. My old 2100's rear feed slot worked beautifully with the thicker papers, albeit with some manual intervention, but I find my 2880's rear feed is hopelessly unreliable. I gather that the 3000 is much better in this regard. So I'd want to see a lot of user experience before dropping the cash for one.
Ian
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Hi Alan, I was a little surprised Epson would have chosen the 13 inch format for rolling out such a new technology - surely they have their reasons, I just don't know them. ....
I'll be in the market for a new printer in 2015, and the P600 looks very promising. Though I consider myself an advanced-amateur, when I take a critical look at the sizes I like to print, a 13" printer will work more often than not. I just don't print the big stuff enough to justify replacing my old 3800 with an equal size machine. Perhaps I'm not alone, and that explains why Epson considers 13" to be a good entry point for the new tech.
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One thing that has been left unsaid - how does this inkset compare in overall gamut to Ultrachrome HDR (or Canon Lucia EX)? It has deeper blacks than any previous Epson inkset (including HDR), and it has better overall gamut than Ultrachrome Vivid Magenta - both according to the Epson rep in the interview. He didn't address whether the improved gamut makes up for the two "extra" inks in HDR. Some say you can't really see them, but, when I look at prints from my 7900 against my old 3880 (or a friend's iPF6100, which is similar in gamut to a VM printer), there's a serious extra "pop" from the orange and green inks! If the next-generation large-format machines go back down to 9 inks, will we actually lose gamut in some colors? Alternatively, Epson could be working on the two extra colors right now... An inkset with this base (if it's as good as Epson says), plus orange and green (if we get greedy, add a dark blue, Canon-style, as well) might well be significantly higher gamut than anything else we've seen, certainly from an inkjet - and perhaps the best way of putting color on paper yet seen, regardless of process. As I understand it, the widest inkjet gamuts already go significantly outside the gamut of any other process, with the possible exception of extremely saturated blacks?
Dan