Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: michael on September 04, 2014, 11:27:13 am
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We have just published my in-depth Pentax 645z review (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/a_pentax_645z_diary.shtml).
I have started this thread as a place for discussion about the review and as a place where I can answer any questions.
Michael
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thank you for your excellent article. by chance did you try out vintage hasselblad v system lenses and if so what were your results?
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No I haven't. I bought an adaptor ring on the thought that I might pick up one or two of the bargains that are out there, but haven't yet.
Michael
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Michael:
Thanks for the entertaining and informative review. As someone postponing the purchase of a 645Z (I have the 645D) while I consider the purchase of an A7r, I found your comments very useful.
Interesting that you are back to Pentax; when I first started visiting LuLa you were using a Pentax 67II and struggling with its 600mm f/4 lens.
Regards,
Tom
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We have just published my in-depth Pentax 645z review (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/a_pentax_645z_diary.shtml).
I have started this thread as a place for discussion about the review and as a place where I can answer any questions.
Michael
Thanks for posting! I was going to point out that there were some errors in the sensor size information but you seem to have corrected them quickly.
My impression of the 645D kinda applies to the 645z. It's a great body looking for lenses. But like it has been mentioned if what is available is good enough for your purposes then it is a superb camera otherwise an A7R (and the D810 to a slightly lesser degree) with it's ability to accept a huge range of superb lenses might be a better choice or the jump to a back and tech camera system if funds allow. Would love to see an actual system resolution comparison (camera lens combinations) between the 645z, the A7R and the D810 to see if the Pentax lenses (or which ones if any) take advantage of the extra (potential) sensor resolution of the 50mp sensor over the 36mp Sony sensor.
One aspect I would like more information on regarding the 645z is the service. I have been reading some horror stories regarding it with the 645D and now the 645z. From what has been posted one can expect to be 10 weeks without the camera if one has to send it in for repair. Can we expect this to change in the near future? Have you heard anything regarding this?
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I will be meeting with Pentax at Photokina in two weeks, and will asking specifically about service.
Michael
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This is obviously a valid question and 10 weeks is unacceptable IMO but I guess for most people a backup 645D at $5K could be an obvious choice.
Even 2 645Z bodies would still cost you $10K less than one Hasselblad body, not to mention Phase One.
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There's always disaster service happening to some people, even among companies like Phase One etc (where service is just as good or bad as your dealer).
But of course, if the default is to wait 10 weeks for a problem to be fixed, then there's an issue.
I think a self-contained camera like a Pentax 645z should not require more "dealer attention" than a Canon or Nikon DSLR, so if one likes the Phase One / Hasselblad dealer model I guess you won't find it for the Pentax. The traditional MF dealer model is however one reason gear costs you many times more than the Pentax, so I hope it's not a goal for them to get there.
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Hi Michael,
thanks for the review. It is interesting to see this after your Mirrorless vs dslr video that was recently published. Would you pickup the pentax 645Z when you KNOW you need to make a bigger print or do you find the quality any better then the sony a7R?
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Hi Michael,
thanks for the review. It is interesting to see this after your Mirrorless vs dslr video that was recently published. Would you pickup the pentax 645Z when you KNOW you need to make a bigger print or do you find the quality any better then the sony a7R?
No question, superior to the A7r, but the price is weight and bulk and cost.
Michael
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Hi Michael,
I'm wondering, you say you often make exhibition sized prints. What size are you printing from the Pentax files?
Thanks,
Peter
PS I bet their gorgeous.
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My gallery prints are usually 24x36" to 40x60". Depends on the image and what the file can manage.
Michael
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Hi Michael
Great review, touched on everything I needed......almost :)
A few quick questions.
1. You note that the files from the 645Z are superior to the A7r (my only contender until 2 days ago), I can see DR and high ISO as well as just plain size, would you add anything else?
2. How would you say the A7r files might be considered superior to the 645Z?
3. Do you anticipate this living on a tripod or can it be handheld realistically? In Nick's early review he noted that the Hassy was slow to set up but it seems that the 645Z is a bit more nimble in terms of size, handling and menus?
Many thanks
G
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Congratulations on the new camera and thanks for the informative review!
Cheers,
Bernard
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Michael,
In the review you mention using auto ISO up to ISO 12800. Since you are a raw shooter as far as I understand, and predicting an almost linear response regarding SNR vs ISO (what some call ISO less) I would suggest to not exceed ISO 1600. Most likely, if you check the raw files with a tool like RawDigger, those ISO's are achieved by multiplying the channels after a/d conversion.
This method might impair the use of JPEG previews but it will preserve highlights better without losing image quality
Two options: just set the shutter speed and aperture and treat ISO as if it were metadata (i do hope this will become normal in the future) or limit to ISO 1600 or even less and use exposure compensation.
Regards
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I think I've seen other cameras with similar Sony sensors to be ISO-less, ie there is no gain in increasing ISO rather than just pushing the base ISO file in post, so it's probably the same with the 645z.
However hunting exposure with exposure compensation or looking at near black JPEGs is not exactly improving the user experience. My own practical experience that if you have a high ISO image it's generally not that file you're going to tonemap to recover highlights and whatever, so the highlights can just as well be cut. In other words, the loss in user experience is not really worth it using the technique of shooting at low ISO all the time with varying degrees of under-exposure.
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Typical "pro" tonemapping situation is interior architecture, where you want to show the view outside the windows, or at least not blow out the windows, but the customer's stuff is inside the room in the low-light zone.
I've been there and it is painstaking careful work, balancing the flash with daylight.
I think the Pentax (and P and H Sony models) will pay for themselves quickly for these guys, since they save them a lot of strobe power, which is expensive to purchase, maintain, transport and takes time and effort to emplace.
On the other hand, this is shift-lens work typically. I think Canon TSE adapters for Sony are going to sell very very well :)
Edmund
I think I've seen other cameras with similar Sony sensors to be ISO-less, ie there is no gain in increasing ISO rather than just pushing the base ISO file in post, so it's probably the same with the 645z.
However hunting exposure with exposure compensation or looking at near black JPEGs is not exactly improving the user experience. My own practical experience that if you have a high ISO image it's generally not that file you're going to tonemap to recover highlights and whatever, so the highlights can just as well be cut. In other words, the loss in user experience is not really worth it using the technique of shooting at low ISO all the time with varying degrees of under-exposure.
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Michael,
looks great
i've played with the Z for a few hours
and must admit
for its price
jeez !!!
I remember, (I've worked for SONY 9 years as an engineer) 10 years ago, I talked to a Hasselblad representative in Belgium
I told him, the future would be a Haaselblad digital camera, but MIRRORLESS
I compared with 3CCD Betacam camera's, as SONY used to build
The guy walked with this idea to hasselblad sweden
Few weeks later, he came back and said, they laughed it away...
Should they've build a MFD camera, mirrorless, 10 years ago
They would have in a predominant position today
Now they'll loose it to lower priced, still DSLR like "Z" model ...
Laugh !
;D
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Hello Michael,
While buying a 645z is way out of my league, I read your review with great interest. Having used various film and digital Pentaxes for the last 9 years, I was curious about how their (generally) excellent handling was transcribed in the MF digital era. Seems like they did it right again!
Well, anyway, I wrote here to comment on your ETTR remark. Having dabbled a little bit with that technique on their K DSLR line, the obvious setback that everyone quickly encounters is indeed the histogram being based on the JPG...
But (don't know if you stumbled on this on your investigation about the matter) there is a mean to get a near-real RAW histogram on the Pentaxes by using the UniWB trick!
Steps are easy:
- go to M mode, be sure to completely overexpose a picture (completely white pic).
- go to the white balance settings, custom WB, and use the shutter to snap a (fully white!) WB reference pic.
- go to the image settings, chose "muted" and customize it with low contrast and a slightly brighter setting (you can even use the advanced contrast setting to fine-tune the highlights and shadow contrasts).
By following these steps, the camera will be tricked by the custom WB and will apply a 1-1-1 ratio on the bayer matrix, instead of pushing up the reds and blues to balance with the doubled green photosites.
I voluntarily left out the exact image settings (contrast, brightness, etc), as it greatly depends on the sensor used. You have to play with them and compare resulting on-camera histograms with the actual RAW histogram (from Rawnalyze for instance)...
Only drawback : any JPG preview you get from the camera will be greenish and washed out, so forget about OOC JPGs...
But an easy way out of this is to assign these settings to a User custom mode only, so this way the camera will behave as usual in every mode except for this "UniWB" User mode...
Hope this helps...
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For those that believe that the 645z is "ISO-less", I was also curious about this and did some experiments last week.
It is to some extent, but setting the ISO does create a superior file to not doing so. Pentax is doing something in the A-D stage or afterward, because when I use the pseudo tone mapping controls in Lightroom (Highlights and Shadows) the results are not as good as setting the high ISO in camera and then using them. I've tested this at ISO 100, 1600 and 6400.
Reading their literature, talking to their people, and playing with files shows me that Pentax is doing a lot in terms of image manipulation in-camera, even to raw files, and that includes lens correction for all their lenses.
That's fine with me. The results are sterling.
As I wrote (and implied) in the review, I set the camera to TAV mode, manually set the appropriate aperture and shutter speed that the shot and conditions require, and let the camera set the ISO as appropriate, up to and including ISO 12,800. And only at 12,800 do I need to move the NR slider just a touch.
Frankly it's a revolutionary way of working. It makes hand-held landscape and nature shooting possible, and even on a tripod if the wind is blowing I can just bump the shutter speed until the foliage is controlled, and still shoot at f/16 for DOF. With the P25 to the IQ180 I never would shoot above ISO 400 because of quality loss. Now I shoot to 6400 without thinking about it. That's a 4 stop advantage, and there's more in reserve.
Remarkable.
Michael
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Hello Michael,
While buying a 645z is way out of my league, I read your review with great interest. Having used various film and digital Pentaxes for the last 9 years, I was curious about how their (generally) excellent handling was transcribed in the MF digital era. Seems like they did it right again!
Well, anyway, I wrote here to comment on your ETTR remark. Having dabbled a little bit with that technique on their K DSLR line, the obvious setback that everyone quickly encounters is indeed the histogram being based on the JPG...
But (don't know if you stumbled on this on your investigation about the matter) there is a mean to get a near-real RAW histogram on the Pentaxes by using the UniWB trick!
Steps are easy:
- go to M mode, be sure to completely overexpose a picture (completely white pic).
- go to the white balance settings, custom WB, and use the shutter to snap a (fully white!) WB reference pic.
- go to the image settings, chose "muted" and customize it with low contrast and a slightly brighter setting (you can even use the advanced contrast setting to fine-tune the highlights and shadow contrasts).
By following these steps, the camera will be tricked by the custom WB and will apply a 1-1-1 ratio on the bayer matrix, instead of pushing up the reds and blues to balance with the doubled green photosites.
I voluntarily left out the exact image settings (contrast, brightness, etc), as it greatly depends on the sensor used. You have to play with them and compare resulting on-camera histograms with the actual RAW histogram (from Rawnalyze for instance)...
Only drawback : any JPG preview you get from the camera will be greenish and washed out, so forget about OOC JPGs...
But an easy way out of this is to assign these settings to a User custom mode only, so this way the camera will behave as usual in every mode except for this "UniWB" User mode...
Hope this helps...
Interesting suggestion, but there's an easier way.
Use the red blinkies in Live View. As I mentioned in the review, they perfectly show highlight clipping that matches LR and RD histograms.
Even if one is shooting with the viewfinder, just popping into LV for a moment to confirm optimum exposure is all it takes.
Michael
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Could be worth noting that the smaller color gamut of sRGB and AdobeRGB is typically not the main problem for JPEG histogram inaccuracies. It's only a problem when highlight colors are saturated, and highlights is most often not so saturated. Oh well, if you photograph colorful flowers the smaller gamuts are a problem. But otherwise the main source of inaccuracy is instead the difference in white balance. The cameras generally see white as green, while the white balance is set to render white as white, and this is what the UniWB trick is intended to correct.
I've tried the UniWB trick on my Canon, and indeed it works, but I've also found that by getting a feeling for how the camera renders JPEGs one can expose well anyway so I don't use it any longer.
The true raw clipping indicators in liveview on the 645z sounds like a really nice feature though for the the tripod-mounted landscape shot, so one can decide the exposure directly without having to make a test shot.
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Hummmm, it's strange that the liveview blinkies behaves differently from the Pentax K line, as the 645z innards are quite similar (if not identical) to the K3.
From experience, they are still taken from the "on-the-fly" conversion done by the Liveview (as it still reflects your WB and image settings), and thus do not reflect the actual RAW data.
And they only show brightness clipping, individual channels clipping are not shown (from memory, so take with a pinch of salt).
A simple test would be using vastly different WBs (say, tungsten and shadow), and note their effect (or lack thereof!) on the liveview red blinkies... But I bet you'll get different results.
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Possibly.
But I use Daylight WB 90% of the time, and that matches nicely.
Frankly, I'm a pragmatist, and while I have a technical bent, my primary interest is in producing images, not playing with settings (appearances to the contrary).
When I find that something works well for me, I simply use it, and leave the theoretical and marginal case stuff to those that enjoy experimenting and have the time to do so.
Michael
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Michael:
When you go to that meeting with the Pentax folk, could you ask them if they are considering a new "mirror-box-less" design? It seems to me, such a revolutionary medium format design concept would make a lot of sense.
--much smaller, lighter camera.
--less chance of mechanical failure (6x7 Pentax was great for that!)
--no mirror slap to dampen leading to sharper images
--much quieter
--cheaper? ;-)
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Hi Michael thanks for the informative review and for your real world use observations. I have also used the D800E and Hasselblad H5D50 cameras and sold both after getting the 645Z, for many of the reasons you mention. First and foremost the high iso / image quality combo can't be beat for landscape work - it is so nice to not be a victim of the wind anymore, especially during wildflower season. I have a few things I am wondering about the camera: I have turned on the diffraction correction feature that is provided and still feel that diffraction is occurring noticeably at f22 - I am shooting mostly at f16 to avoid this and still get DOF. I do find I need to focus stack on some shots to get everything in focus. What are your thoughts on the diffraction correction feature and smaller apertures on this camera? Maybe worth a discussion with them at photokina since I can't find any info online about it. Also I am wondering if iso 200 is the base iso of this camera and not iso 100, in the interest of getting every last grain of quality from the files. On some tests I ran it seemed that iso 200 looked better than iso 100. Also have you done any tests on shutter shake and determined that there are certain shutter speeds to avoid when doing tripod mounted / mirror up shooting? This was not an issue with the Hasselblad leaf shutter lenses but feel it needs to be looked at with this camera.
I am currently preparing an online review for my blog of the 645z and will share a link here when complete.
Elizabeth Carmel
https://www.elizabethcarmel.com
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Hi Michael,
A good review, thanks very much! I hope Pentax sells lots of them!
Best regards
Erik
We have just published my in-depth Pentax 645z review (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/a_pentax_645z_diary.shtml).
I have started this thread as a place for discussion about the review and as a place where I can answer any questions.
Michael
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We have just published my in-depth Pentax 645z review (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/a_pentax_645z_diary.shtml).
I have started this thread as a place for discussion about the review and as a place where I can answer any questions.
Michael
Of the many camera reviews I have read (and watched), this is by a long way, the most engaging, informative and useful I have had the pleasure to read. What is particularly reassuring is that you liked it enough to buy it, and that you retracted a comment you made in your first impressions review. It takes a big man to do that!
Clearly it is the review of an experienced landscape photographer, rather than a salesman or lab technician (absolutely no disrespect intended to these two parties who do fulfill a valuable role!). Your review tells us what it is like to use the 645z and it clearly implies that you enjoy the experience of and results from this camera.
I'm still using film for MF (Pentax 645 N), but hopefully one day I'll make the jump to Z - got plenty of good lenses in waiting.
Really enjoyed your review, Michael, thank you for writing and sharing it.
p.s. I also did enjoy your video "The Mirrorless Revolution" which addresses the other end of photography when a quick lightweight quality camera is needed. (If only Pentax would bring out a ff mirrorless!)
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When someone talks to Pentax, ask them about their tethering suite, time of delivery, will it process or just shuttle?
Shuttle is fine as long as it's quick, but until it tethers it'll be DOA on most professional sets.
IMO
BC
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I think RED is going to be the next new entrant in the still photo field.
Exciting times.
Edmund
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I think RED is going to be the next new entrant in the still photo field.
Exciting times.
Edmund
They have tried to push their current camera for stills for years but even the current Red Dragon sensor, while awesome, is still too wide aspect (30.7mm x 15.8mm) and too small to compete with the look of the larger formats (although very fast lenses help). The camera also is made to be used with the sensor horizontal and even though RED sells a nice grip w/ battery and EVF the camera needs to be rigged up quite a bit for most uses. Also, I believe flash sync is limited to 1/60 due to the electronic shutter (if it works). RED definitely has the capability to make an amazing stills camera but I do not know if they want to.
I have used the RED One Mx and EPIC Dragon so I have some first hand knowledge of the cameras but I am sure DC or someone else can provide more info.
Regarding the 645z (back on topic :) ) I would love for Pentax/Ricoh to provide MUCH faster and better service (that is the main reason I let go of the 645D) and also would love to see a wider range of lenses and with better build and feel to at least match the camera body which is very nice. A 19mm rectilinear super wide angle would be awesome for Architecture interiors and also a 28mm Tilt/ Shift with 82mm filter thread. A 100mm f2 lens would be awesome also.
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I think RED is going to be the next new entrant in the still photo field.
Exciting times.
Edmund
A Pils at Koln during Photokina says they won't.
Michael
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Michael,
if a Phase One system with IQ250 and corresponding lens lineup would cost the same or even a bit less, would you still prefer the Pentax?
When I read your review it seems to me that the Pentax 645z is the current best match for your shooting style (taking the print-making into account too) even if we drop the cost factor.
I'm struck with how much the shooting style is integrated into the camera choice, and of course it should be like that. It's sometimes easy to forget, especially in medium format land where image quality often seems to be number 1, 2 and 3, forgetting about how useful the system is to make pictures with the shooting style one prefer.
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Michael,
One question I have been wanting to ask and I hope you don't take offense in me asking it.
In the past and up till very recently you have been very vocal about closed systems, especially with regards to Hasselblad.
Obviously the Pentax 645Z is a closed system system as well and in their case the back is (as far as I know) even non-removable.
Did you change your opinion in any way about closed systems?
Thanks, Joris.
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There is a difference between a closed system that is closed because the manufacturer is afraid of losing component sales to the competition, and a product which is closed because it is a logical impossibility for it to be open. That's like complaining that a car isn't a boat.
In any event, Hasselblad recently announced that anyone can now buy a H5X (without a trade in) and so the system is open once again.
I wonder what the state of Hasselblad would be today if they hadn't closed the system some eight years ago. Would Phase still be top dog?
Michael
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Obviously the Pentax 645Z is a closed system system as well and in their case the back is (as far as I know) even non-removable.
645z is a dSLR with a big sensor...
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Michael,
if a Phase One system with IQ250 and corresponding lens lineup would cost the same or even a bit less, would you still prefer the Pentax?
When I read your review it seems to me that the Pentax 645z is the current best match for your shooting style (taking the print-making into account too) even if we drop the cost factor.
I'm struck with how much the shooting style is integrated into the camera choice, and of course it should be like that. It's sometimes easy to forget, especially in medium format land where image quality often seems to be number 1, 2 and 3, forgetting about how useful the system is to make pictures with the shooting style one prefer.
Well, that's obviously a hypothetical. If my grandmother had wings, she'd be an airplane.
But seriously, the answer is – probably not. My shooting needs have changed over the past few years.
Given money no object my choice right now would be a Leica S and all of their lenses first, with the Pentax system second. But I'd much rather eat for the next 5 years, so the Pentax is my real-world choice.
Photokina is now just 10 days away. Let's see what it brings.
Michael
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Photokina is now just 10 days away. Let's see what it brings.
Michael
Jet engines for grandmother?
A larger Sony MF sensor and Phase and Hassy announcements?
The oft-promised digital Xpan?
A truly open Hasselblad body system compatible with all old Hassy and Phase backs?
Yet another Phamiya refresh?
A slew of MF compacts from Sony, Mamiya and Fuji ?
Decent software for the Sigma?
A cigarette-pack sized 4/3 camera with EVF?
Edmund
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In any event, Hasselblad recently announced that anyone can now buy a H5X (without a trade in) and so the system is open once again.
It is the H4X that is now available again without trade in.
There are Photokina rumors about a Hasselblad H5X:
http://photorumors.com/2014/09/03/new-photokina-rumor-hasselblad-to-open-their-h5-system-for-3rd-party-digital-backs/
but who knows…
If Leica could price its new CMOS S body around $15K I am convinced that they would take a lot of business away from Phase One and Hasselblad.
If they keep current prices (which I suspect they will or perhaps slightly lower at around $20K) then Pentax over time might become the main player…
That is if Sony or Fuji don't step in… It's all good and interesting!
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(snipped from original message)... If my grandmother had wings, she'd be an airplane...
...Photokina is now just 10 days away. Let's see what it brings.
Michael
Huh? I would have thought if grandmother had wings she'd be an ... angel!. I think Michael may be subconsciously thinking of a discounted way to do the Drake Passage airplane flyover :-)
Ok, maybe a poor attempt at humor.
However, if someone like Sony or Fuji announced a medium format mirrorless version of the Sony Rx1r or A7 series, or Fuji XT1 or digital version of a scaled down Fuji GW690, at a price point below the Pentax 645Z then I'd sure be flying high!
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Michael,
if a Phase One system with IQ250 and corresponding lens lineup would cost the same or even a bit less, would you still prefer the Pentax?
When I read your review it seems to me that the Pentax 645z is the current best match for your shooting style (taking the print-making into account too) even if we drop the cost factor.
I'm struck with how much the shooting style is integrated into the camera choice, and of course it should be like that. It's sometimes easy to forget, especially in medium format land where image quality often seems to be number 1, 2 and 3, forgetting about how useful the system is to make pictures with the shooting style one prefer.
Lets put the question the other way around.... If Pentax would ever decide to split the DSLR in two, a body and a back and would do that in parallel to the Z production and maybe would add some more versions of the back for M645, C645, H645 etc... Would P1 or other survive? Besides.... how much (surely less than the camera) the back would sell for? ::)
Next... would anybody make an adapter for my 528c to do MS with the Pentax? ...and more next, would the lenses be able to support FF (for mf) image size? :-\
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Photokina is now just 10 days away. Let's see what it brings.
:-) You say that so innocently. >whistling< No, no NDAs around here.
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:-) You say that so innocently. >whistling< No, no NDAs around here.
You think Phase and Hassy are going to slash their prices by 60% at Photokina? Wow! Pigs with jet engines indeed :)
Edmund
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Well, that's obviously a hypothetical. If my grandmother had wings, she'd be an airplane.
:)
Thanks for the reply. The purpose of the hypothetical question was to see if you think Pentax 645z is a superior system for your needs even without considering the cost, and I got a good answer. The cost difference is so large that I imagine many of us could make substantial compromises in function or image quality to save the dollars, but nice to hear that regardless of cost it's up there.
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Hi,
My guess is that Phase would still be top dog in backs, but those backs would sit on Hasselblad.
Best regards
Erik
There is a difference between a closed system that is closed because the manufacturer is afraid of losing component sales to the competition, and a product which is closed because it is a logical impossibility for it to be open. That's like complaining that a car isn't a boat.
In any event, Hasselblad recently announced that anyone can now buy a H5X (without a trade in) and so the system is open once again.
I wonder what the state of Hasselblad would be today if they hadn't closed the system some eight years ago. Would Phase still be top dog?
Michael
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You think Phase and Hassy are going to slash their prices by 60% at Photokina? Wow! Pigs with jet engines indeed :)
That's no way to speak about someone's grandmother! :-)
Seriously, I have no idea what's coming at Photokina. But Michael does.
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There is a difference between a closed system that is closed because the manufacturer is afraid of losing component sales to the competition, and a product which is closed because it is a logical impossibility for it to be open. That's like complaining that a car isn't a boat.
In any event, Hasselblad recently announced that anyone can now buy a H5X (without a trade in) and so the system is open once again.
I wonder what the state of Hasselblad would be today if they hadn't closed the system some eight years ago. Would Phase still be top dog?
Michael
My guess is that Hasselblad's decision to stop the CF backs did them even more damage than closing the system... If the CF backs where around, they could (along with D4X) have it both worlds "open" and "closed" at the same time and if they would give the (very easy to apply) ability to H4X to accept any back from the "closed" system, they would have been the leading maker by far... IMO closing the system and later stopping the production of CF backs was a decision of pure arrogance.... and the market punished it accordingly!
Never the less it's never too late, they can still re-introduce the CF backs by simply converting their current backs to self contained and take the market back...
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Never the less it's never too late, they can still re-introduce the CF backs by simply converting their current backs to self contained and take the market back...
They've (sort of) done that with the H5D, there's now battery adapter in the standard accessory kit so you can slap on a battery on the back without too much extra bulk, and use it on a tech cam as any Phase One back. Previously you needed a third-party external battery to use a H5D back. You're limited to the H system though, can't change mount. I think that is much less important today though than back in the days CF was new.
(https://captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Screen-shot-2013-06-06-at-8.28.05-AM.png)
What still remains is the possibility to buy the back without buying the camera body. Oh well, the pricing of the H5D is much higher than the CFV backs too. The CFV-50c is a bargain compared to the near-identical H5D-50c even if you deduct the camera body cost. Unfortunately the CCD-version CFV-50 was discontinued so if you want the 50 megapixel Kodak (great for symmetrical tech wides unlike any modern Dalsa) you still need to go for H5D-50.
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They've (sort of) done that with the H5D, there's now battery adapter in the standard accessory kit so you can slap on a battery on the back without too much extra bulk, and use it on a tech cam as any Phase One back. Previously you needed a third-party external battery to use a H5D back. You're limited to the H system though, can't change mount. I think that is much less important today though than back in the days CF was new.
(https://captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Screen-shot-2013-06-06-at-8.28.05-AM.png)
What still remains is the possibility to buy the back without buying the camera body. Oh well, the pricing of the H5D is much higher than the CFV backs too. The CFV-50c is a bargain compared to the near-identical H5D-50c even if you deduct the camera body cost. Unfortunately the CCD-version CFV-50 was discontinued so if you want the 50 megapixel Kodak (great for symmetrical tech wides unlike any modern Dalsa) you still need to go for H5D-50.
Can you put any of the H3D/H3Dii/H4D/H5D backs on an H4X? The damage that Hasselblad has done to their previous customers is unbelievable... Why an owner of an H3II-D39MS can't keep his su-per-b back?
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Can you put any of the H3D/H3Dii/H4D/H5D backs on an H4X? The damage that Hasselblad has done to their previous customers is unbelievable... Why an owner of an H3II-D39MS can't keep his su-per-b back?
Maybe it's a revenge for the damage those customers has caused Hasselblad by not upgrading ;)
Joke aside, we all know that the business model Hasselblad and Phase One employ works best if you follow recommended upgrade paths and stay on the latest. I would not recommend any pro user to buy from them if they don't think they can afford to upgrade when new releases come.
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Maybe it's a revenge for the damage those customers has caused Hasselblad by not upgrading ;)
Joke aside, we all know that the business model Hasselblad and Phase One employ works best if you follow recommended upgrade paths and stay on the latest. I would not recommend any pro user to buy from them if they don't think they can afford to upgrade when new releases come.
Spot on! ...main reason why I believe Leica/Sinar will have a great future with pros... they invite everybody (not only pros) and have complete solutions for one's needs! ...But it would be better if there was some more competition around... Jokes aside (not joking about Leica/Sinar), It surely will be great if they "wake-up" in Hasselblad and they stop taking their own eyes off.. ??? It really is so simple to do... they only have to convert the current backs for the adapter system they had with the CF backs and make an H5X that will be able (alongside compatibility with other maker's backs) to accept older backs from the older cameras they've made! :'(
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I never would have considered a Leica S2 except that Leica was smart enough to give me full use of my Contax lenses. Autofocus, auto diaphragm, everything.
It allowed me to buy into a newer system for less than even a pentax 645d.
And for what it's worth, I bought a leica 120mm, use it next to all my contax lenses and don't see any difference in sharpness, with the only change being the leica lenses have a smoother roll off than the contax zeiss and not as much bite, but other than that, no loss, no problem.
I hope Pentax sells a lot of cameras and obviously there is pent up demand for a lower cost medium format style system, though without a tethering suite I don't know how far it's going to go with professionals and at this point, most pros have some sort of medium format system anyway.
Now the upside of the Leica to Contax and H adapter is I'll probably stay with the system for a long time, though I tend to to that with all my cameras, but still cameras are not my concern anymore as I believe still cameras pretty much leveled out 5 years ago.
Ask a 25 something year old what their big camera is and it's a 5d3 or a d800 their small camera . . . an I phone.
IMO
BC
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I think RED is going to be the next new entrant in the still photo field.
Exciting times.
Edmund
Maybe not stills, but still image only production in the commercial world is so 2007.
Red made movie and TV cameras. It was a proven market and the place to go to get attention. It worked . . . still does.
But RED has always called their cameras dsmc . . . digital stills and motion camera.
Not promising to produce a still the quality of a 50mpx digital back, or even a 35mpx still dslr, but a camera than can cross territory in the new age.
Prior to digital, (In commerce) still photography was becoming more and more marginalized. First through broadcast television, then cable advertising and now the web, because all offer a moving pallet.
Now to qualify my thoughts, I think only in the realm of the commercial arts. Love photography, it's been my career my adult life and never a hobby, which is a plus making a living at what I love, but I don't let love get in the way of business.
In business the lines are crossing where motion and stills are intertwined. Still imagery in motion content, motion content turned to stills, all the productions wrapped into one.
From a technical standpoint, the software of motion to stills is not that far apart, the cameras are also combining functions, so if you can work light-room, give it a week and you can work Resolve.
below from resolve 9
(http://www.russellrutherford.com/1_color_grade.jpg)
Doesn't mean there isn't and won't continue to be specialists production companies that only shot motion, photographers that only shoot stills, but digital has brought them closer together than ever and this is just the start of new requirements, not the end.
This type of thought is a hard sell on this forum because it's historically based on still photography, mostly landscapes and inanimate objects where sharp clear detail matters as much as the content, to some people it seems to matter more.
But in the new world of commercial production, it's all about the concept, the story, the look, the creative brief and the ability to play on multiple platforms at once, but today . . . it really about ROI.
Everybody advertiser and editorial platform wants as much content they can get for the budget and the time.
I think RED saw this coming, in fact I know they did because from the start their marketing centered on movies, commercials, TV projects and editorial stills.
RED's cameras make great motion imagery and under certain situations pretty good stills. I see A level movie posters that were produced from RED capture, (which isn't a leap given the level of post production and retouching on movie posters)
But REDs are not small, have a sensor format for motion and if you've worked one for a day hand held you'll be tired. It is a serious piece of equipment, though a horizontal format isn't a problem anymore because 75% of all our comissioned work is horizontal, still or motion.
RED also is the only motion camera company that pretty much covered everything from the start, from lenses, the bodies, accessories and grading/processing suites hooked to their own graphics accelerators.
Will there be a time when one camera can do it all. Maybe . . . probably because that's what the commercial market is asking for.
But is Annoucekina the place for RED? . . . yes and no though they'll be there, but in a few years photokina will be seeing a lot more companies like RED.
IMO
BC
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I never would have considered a Leica S2 except that Leica was smart enough to give me full use of my Contax lenses. Autofocus, auto diaphragm, everything.
It allowed me to buy into a newer system for less than even a pentax 645d.
And for what it's worth, I bought a leica 120mm, use it next to all my contax lenses and don't see any difference in sharpness, with the only change being the leica lenses have a smoother roll off than the contax zeiss and not as much bite, but other than that, no loss, no problem.
I hope Pentax sells a lot of cameras and obviously there is pent up demand for a lower cost medium format style system, though without a tethering suite I don't know how far it's going to go with professionals and at this point, most pros have some sort of medium format system anyway.
Now the upside of the Leica to Contax and H adapter is I'll probably stay with the system for a long time, though I tend to to that with all my cameras, but still cameras are not my concern anymore as I believe still cameras pretty much leveled out 5 years ago.
Ask a 25 something year old what their big camera is and it's a 5d3 or a d800 their small camera . . . an I phone.
IMO
BC
It's surprising that in Hasselblad they totally ignore a photographer's needs... I also use C645 as my main system, alongside a Fuji GX680 (with C645 plate on it) and an Imacon 528c back since high resolution and "true colour" is essential for what provides mostly for me (art reproduction). If MS wasn't in my needs, I would have already invested on Leica S2 as well! I might as well do if they improve their high Iso performance in a future model... I'll then get rid of my Nikon system and have it covered with a Leica body, their 24mm lens and a Contax adapter since I have all the lenses but the 350mm for my Contax system.
But with Hasselblad, it is surprising how they ignore their older customers... I would love to add a 200MS back in my system... but since I can't, a Sinar E-xact is the only alternative I have... It will immediately integrate in my system and along with a future Leica S Cmos sensor body will fulfil any photographer's dream... To work with as little equipment as possible for as many projects as possible without compromising in quality at all! ;)
EDIT: Why is it Leica/Sinar the only one that can provide effective solutions for real photography? ...I don't believe it's by accident! :-X
Another Thing, I believe they should consider in the next Leica-S (other that the high Iso) to work with Copal on a faster phocal plane shutter that would be able to provide 1/250 flash-sync. speed... I believe that with today's materials and technology it is feasible despite the shutter's extra mass from 35mm... It will shoot the camera's demand over the roof.
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Having heard both sides of the arguments from the respective companies, Phase and Hasselblad, I understood why Hasselblad closed off their system.
After all they were selling the less profitable part for another company to sell the more profitable part.
That like me giving another photographer our studios, crew, credit lines, equipment and taking less income for it. No company could, or would do that and honestly the only people pissed about it were Phase owners that didn't like the Mamiya solution.
The only downside to Hasselblad is it hurt them PR wise and of course the way around this was to make a superior digital back, maybe a newer better integrated camera (obviously better, open sourced software) and try like crazy to get the price point down.
Then the rumbling would have stopped.
That's kind of what the Pentax is, a low cost medium format camera, at least the body . . . the lenses are another matter, the software and tethering I don't know about, though I don't think Pentax is aiming at the professional advertising photographer, I would imagine it's the serious enthusiast and maybe the portrait/wedding crowd.
But in reality, medium format is a limited market.
IMO
BC
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You know, J, for once I disagree in spite of your business savvy. Hassy had arguably the more modern body and lenses, and you can make steady money off lenses, they could have made money off body upgrades eg. from H3 to H4 with the better focus and LCD etc etc. There was no reason to keep the huge prices as they were selling via guys like B&H, and had good links with traditional photo shops, and there was no reason to lock the system against reuse of their own old backs. And in fact, there was probably little reason to lock it against third party backs as the very fact that the system was open would have driven third party back prices down over time and increased lens and body sales. You know something - I believe they made a mistake by entering the back business at all, or rather by merging the operations of Imacon (backs) with Hasselblad (cameras). The huge initial sensor prices created that inflated pricing model and the high prices became addictive and removed the focus from the camera and lenses.
Edmund
Having heard both sides of the arguments from the respective companies, Phase and Hasselblad, I understood why Hasselblad closed off their system.
After all they were selling the less profitable part for another company to sell the more profitable part.
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You know, J, for once I disagree in spite of your business savvy. Hassy had arguably the more modern lenses, and you can make steady money off lenses, they could have made money off body upgrades eg. from H3 to H4 with the better focus and LCD etc etc. There was no reason to keep the huge prices as they were selling via guys like B&H, and had good links with traditional photo shops, and there was no reason to lock the system against reuse of their own old backs. And in fact, there was probably little reason to lock it against third party backs as the very fact that the system was open would have driven third party back prices down over time and increased lens and body sales.
Edmund
I agree that Hasselblad went too far, just don't agree that they should have been the phase one platform of choice.
I also am perplexed as to why a digital solution mattered in the world of cameras.
Hasselblad, Nikon, Canon . . . never had a film solution or made money of processing, but I guess did pretty well in the photo biz, but then once digital camera out every dealer would say, Contax, Bronica, Minolta, almost Leica went down because they didn't have a digital solution for their cameras.
I would have thought selling cameras and lenses would have been enough, but then again if I watched Phase sell $30,000 backs that went on my cameras, I guess I'd build my own back . . . the problem was at the time they didn't build it better.
IMO
BC
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I would have thought selling cameras and lenses would have been enough, but then again if I watched Phase sell $30,000 backs that went on my cameras, I guess I'd build my own back . . . the problem was at the time they didn't build it better.
IMO
BC
The problem was the huge back prices became addictive and the tail wagged the dog.
Also, Phase got Microsoft backing AFAIK, and at that point the issues of competing became predictable ...whatever the technical quality of the product.
Hassy are still around with decent hardware, a bit like Apple stuck around like a zombie for a while, not quite realizing that "not PC-compatible" was a clinical euphemism for "multiple organ failure". I guess if no one drives a stake through their heart a miracle could happen and the the brand could still revive. Innovation can sometimes do wonders for tech companies :)
Edmund
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Contax, Bronica, Minolta, almost Leica went down because they didn't have a digital solution for their cameras.
Add Frank & Heidecke (Rollei) to that list which was later resurrected as DHW...
In the digital medium format world in my opinion the numbers are simply too small to only survive on bodies and lenses.
On a different note, the digital X-PAN rumor is back… :)
Meanwhile, recent rumors suggest that the Hasselblad Digital X-Pan could finally be appearing at Photokina this year.
Reports say that the compact DSLR will boast a customized sensor (24mm x 65mm with 1.5 cropping).
It is rumored to be priced at around $8000, joining the Leica M price range.
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Add Frank & Heidecke (Rollei) to that list which was later resurrected as DHW...
In the digital medium format world in my opinion the numbers are simply too small to only survive on bodies and lenses.
On a different note, the digital X-PAN rumor is back… :)
Meanwhile, recent rumors suggest that the Hasselblad Digital X-Pan could finally be appearing at Photokina this year.
Reports say that the compact DSLR will boast a customized sensor (24mm x 65mm with 1.5 cropping).
It is rumored to be priced at around $8000, joining the Leica M price range.
yes, yes, it helps that this is a nice format for video ;)
Edmund
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Minolta had digital solutions, but probably was less than competitive. The operation was taken over by Sony. Pentax is a parallel, it was taken over by Ricoh.
Best regards
Erik
Add Frank & Heidecke (Rollei) to that list which was later resurrected as DHW...
In the digital medium format world in my opinion the numbers are simply too small to only survive on bodies and lenses.
On a different note, the digital X-PAN rumor is back… :)
Meanwhile, recent rumors suggest that the Hasselblad Digital X-Pan could finally be appearing at Photokina this year.
Reports say that the compact DSLR will boast a customized sensor (24mm x 65mm with 1.5 cropping).
It is rumored to be priced at around $8000, joining the Leica M price range.
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Michael,
I noticed you mentioned in another forum that Pentax is going to produce leaf shutter lenses for the 645Z. Can you elaborate?
Thanks,
Bob
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I saw 4 days ago a video from the back stage Annie Leibovitz shooting, and she uses recent phase one back on a H hasselblad body and lens, even the monster but great 50-110mm, and was a little surprise to me, she prefer the phase backs but prefer the H camera?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2743951/Where-rich-famous-live-Intimate-portraits-shot-Annie-Leibovitz-Jimmy-Buffett-Misty-Copeland-privacy-homes.html#v-3768284511001
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Michael,
I noticed you mentioned in another forum that Pentax is going to produce leaf shutter lenses for the 645Z. Can you elaborate?
Thanks,
Bob
It's just a rumour like so many others.
Maybe also a bit of wishful thinking. Pentax really need some new LS lenses to appeal to the wedding crowd.
Michael
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My friends at lensprotogo have purchased the camera, and early reviews are "sensor and body amazing, lenses not there yet. And most of their clients are wedding shooters.
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Great review Michael, thanks !
Finally in the DMF system - "The Sleeper has Awakened" - David Lynch's Dune my favorite sci-fiction movie cote...
For several years i read many times that one of reasons for the huge prices in DMF (huge sensors...huge costs)
The base bodys of the Phase One are from the days of mamiya 645AF, the bodys of the H hasselblad are from the Fuji 645 AF, i know that those company's are making a huge effort and a great job for the digital medium format system, thanks for that as a photographer. But the only brand that launch a new base 645 body not a upgrade one are the cheap one...Pentax
- Pentax 645Z 50 MP CMOS Medium Format DSLR Camera BODY - NO LENS - $8,496.95
- Hasselblad H5D-50c Medium Format DSLR BODY - NO LENS - $27,500.00
- Hasselblad CFV-50c - JUST BACK - $15.000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back -JUST BACK NO BODY - $27,000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back Kit with 645DF + f/2.8 80mm LS AF Lens - $30,995.00
- Mamiya 645DF+ Medium Format DSLR Camera (Body Only No LENS NO BACK NO SENSOR) - $6.000
I don´t have anything against a good company with a good product make good profit, but in this case with the same sensor, and this differences i just like to understand those price ranges in DMF, for me in the past i just could effort to buy used 39MP DMF format systems under 8k now finaly its possible to buy a 50MP DMF for 10k !!!
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Great review Michael, thanks !
Finally ....snip
- Pentax 645Z 50 MP CMOS Medium Format DSLR Camera BODY - NO LENS - $8,496.95
- Hasselblad H5D-50c Medium Format DSLR BODY - NO LENS - $27,500.00
- Hasselblad CFV-50c - JUST BACK - $15.000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back -JUST BACK NO BODY - $27,000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back Kit with 645DF + f/2.8 80mm LS AF Lens - $30,995.00
- Mamiya 645DF+ Medium Format DSLR Camera (Body Only No LENS NO BACK NO SENSOR) - $6.000
I want everyone to do well, but in reality the world of imaging for commerce has changed and a $31,000 still camera is a bit much considering a 6k RED goes for the same price.
Obviously, the RED needs another 7 grand to get a viewfinder, modules for sound input, plus extra battery power, but we're talking about a real, full fledged movie camera for the price of a still camera.
I think Pentax has hit a sweet spot, especially for the serious enthusiast and the photographer that doesn't need tethering, though if Pentax made a tethering suite, came in with some good lens quality and not break the bank prices they'd make life hard for the larger than 35mm competition.
The only issue is I'm heavily invested in lenses that fit my Contax and Leicas and they continue to be very good lenses. I'm curious where Leica will go in price with their cmos version . . . Bugatti bling or Audi efficiency. If they go Audi they'll do well.
IMO
BC
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J, a RED has no moving parts - it's just a sensor and some electronics. No reason for prices there not to crash here in the same way, if a commodity sensor comes out that can do the bandwidth without overheating. The rest is pretty much there already, now that SSDs are commodity items, and compression standards have been written and CinemaDNG has arrived. Over the past few years, Canon has had a good run financially with their cinema dSLRs, and I am sure Sony have designs on all that money ...they do have a *lot* of experience in the pro TV industry so they have the know how.
Edmund
I want everyone to do well, but in reality the world of imaging for commerce has changed and a $31,000 still camera is a bit much considering a 6k RED goes for the same price.
Obviously, the RED needs another 7 grand to get a viewfinder, modules for sound input, plus extra battery power, but we're talking about a real, full fledged movie camera for the price of a still camera.
I think Pentax has hit a sweet spot, especially for the serious enthusiast and the photographer that doesn't need tethering, though if Pentax made a tethering suite, came in with some good lens quality and not break the bank prices they'd make life hard for the larger than 35mm competition.
The only issue is I'm heavily invested in lenses that fit my Contax and Leicas and they continue to be very good lenses. I'm curious where Leica will go in price with their cmos version . . . Bugatti bling or Audi efficiency. If they go Audi they'll do well.
IMO
BC
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Is RED actually successful, or is it more hype? To me it seems like most pros are using Arri still... but maybe that's because I'm located in Europe?
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J, a RED has no moving parts - it's just a sensor and some electronics. No reason for prices there not to crash here in the same way, if a commodity sensor comes out that can do the bandwidth without overheating. The rest is pretty much there already, now that SSDs are commodity items, and compression standards have been written and CinemaDNG has arrived. Over the past few years, Canon has had a good run financially with their cinema dSLRs, and I am sure Sony have designs on all that money ...they do have a *lot* of experience in the pro TV industry so they have the know how.
Edmund
Actually REDS have a cooling fan, that moves.
Sony, who knows. First they're bleeding more money than a country in the southern euro zone and to this day do not make a modern dslr that will track focus, so obviously there are somethings Sony can't or won't do.
But price out an F55 or F5 and RED is a bargain.
Now there are rumors of an e mount camera at 10 grand with the f55 sensor, but knowing Sony, something will be missing, especially some way to process 4k.
Sony makes great video cams (engs) but aren't known to own the film world, or the looks like film world, though any file can be made to look good.
RED a gimmick? I don't think so, they sure own a lot of stuff, including their own studios and though JJ has deep pockets few individuals subsidize large expenses for a decade.
I waited forever for my first RED1 and ran the numbers of how many they sold and it was quite a haul.
I do know that a 20 grand scarlet will break your brain on how good the footage is, because I shoot my R1's and scarlet next to a lot of cameras and the difference in footage really shows and I'm no techno freak.
In regards to Arri they make a good camera, an enormous size and price and still don't have a 4k solution. Arri is used in TV to limit transcoding time and because dp's like most creative people are loathe to make a change, though the DP's I know that love Arri and hate RED rent a RED when they're shooting with their money, whatever that means.
I'm far from a RED fanboy, but love their file, kind of like their cameras, they've been great for my business and are affordable compared to anything else with the same look.
IMO
BC
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I'm lusting one of these, but the slow flash synch speed is a downside! Any hope to have LS lenses for it?
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"In regards to Arri they make a good camera, an enormous size and price and still don't have a 4k solution”
yes they do have a 4k solution*. they just aren’t in the habit of not delivering on their promises and moving the goalposts. not releasing it straight away while it’s being tested on a few select productions to make sure everything is 100% is vital when producing reliable professional equipment.
blackmagic and red obviously do it the other way.
*somebody at Arri told me to hang on to my old H/blad lenses. we will have to wait and see why ;)
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Great review Michael, thanks !
Finally in the DMF system - "The Sleeper has Awakened" - David Lynch's Dune my favorite sci-fiction movie cote...
For several years i read many times that one of reasons for the huge prices in DMF (huge sensors...huge costs)
The base bodys of the Phase One are from the days of mamiya 645AF, the bodys of the H hasselblad are from the Fuji 645 AF, i know that those company's are making a huge effort and a great job for the digital medium format system, thanks for that as a photographer. But the only brand that launch a new base 645 body not a upgrade one are the cheap one...Pentax
- Pentax 645Z 50 MP CMOS Medium Format DSLR Camera BODY - NO LENS - $8,496.95
- Hasselblad H5D-50c Medium Format DSLR BODY - NO LENS - $27,500.00
- Hasselblad CFV-50c - JUST BACK - $15.000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back -JUST BACK NO BODY - $27,000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back Kit with 645DF + f/2.8 80mm LS AF Lens - $30,995.00
- Mamiya 645DF+ Medium Format DSLR Camera (Body Only No LENS NO BACK NO SENSOR) - $6.000
I don´t have anything against a good company with a good product make good profit, but in this case with the same sensor, and this differences i just like to understand those price ranges in DMF, for me in the past i just could effort to buy used 39MP DMF format systems under 8k now finaly its possible to buy a 50MP DMF for 10k !!!
Even taking Pentax out of the equation nothing makes sense. Why have both Phase and Credo? And pricing is all over the place. In particular, $12K for a CFV50c and $27K for an h5D50c - none of it really makes sense. Just one thing is certain: for anyone coming into MF, Pentax is cheaper.
Edmund
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but isn’t real full frame 16bit CCD the only way to superior images?
oh sorry that’s last years press release i’m reading ::)
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I want everyone to do well, but in reality the world of imaging for commerce has changed and a $31,000 still camera is a bit much considering a 6k RED goes for the same price.
In fact, RED have actually just offloaded a bunch of barely used (just a few hours apparently) Dragons for $21K.
I think you overplay the abilities of the Dragon as a stills camera, and FWIW I know plenty of people who are none-too-impressed with its capabilities as a movie camera.
Half way between the worlds of cinematography and photography, timelapses from the IQ250 blow any footage you can get from a Dragon out of the water.
I do respect and appreciate that they work well for you (and that you get great results from them), but they are worse than useless in the vast majority of still photography genres.
Kind regards,
Gerald.
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Even taking Pentax out of the equation nothing makes sense. Why have both Phase and Credo? And pricing is all over the place. In particular, $12K for a CFV50c and $27K for an h5D50c - none of it really makes sense. Just one thing is certain: for anyone coming into MF, Pentax is cheaper.
CFV-50c can be cheap because the V-format is dead in the pro world. Ie even if CFV-50c was for free, it would be useless to professional photographers that need a back that works on the H body. This means that Hasselblad can have completely separate pricing, and making the CFV-50c "cheap" is a good move as it can attract amateurs and artists and one or two nostalgic pro photographers to buy it. They wouldn't sell much if it was as expensive as the H5D-50c. The difference was already there in the CCD versions by the way, CFV-50 vs H5D-50. Yes, you effectively pay $10k for the mount. It's unfortunate the CFV-50c sucks for tech wides, otherwise it would be a real bargain for those of us that just want a back for our tech camera...
Sure Hasselblad could probably sell the H5D-50c for $12k too and make profits on volume rather than ultra-high margins, but it's hard to change business model once it's set. Hopefully the pressure from Pentax and high end 135 will force them to change eventually, but I think they may have still a few more years ahead where they can continue as if nothing has happened.
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It's unfortunate the CFV-50c sucks for tech wides, otherwise it would be a real bargain for those of us that just want a back for our tech camera...
could you explain? are you saying this because of the sensor size?
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It's main issues are crosstalk on shifts and the 1.3x crop. Crosstalk on the 50mp Sony gets pretty harsh on most wides by 8 to 10mm of shift. Crosstalk = non recoverable loss of color and saturation.
Paul
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Word.
Bottom line on the Pentax is this.
If you work in commerce and your shooting 6 figure projects 9.999 times out of 10 you'll use a phase or a leaf if the job requires medium format.
Pentax played their hand with the D having virtually no tethering, a tiny buffer and no immediate solution for any professional processing suite.
Now with the Z, tethering is in the future, professional support isn't mentioned.
For some that's fine, for me that's not.
I hear Pentax will do this, will do that, set up this, offer that, but that's not today and today most of us are working for a living.
And BTW:: Having a good dealer for Leaf and Phase doesn't mean the products are faulty or lack maturity, it just means you have a true professional to assist you and all of us or only as good as who we work with.
EVERY camera company has had issues. Even deep pockets Nikon, Canon and Sony have pushed stuff out too soon.
Example: (One of many)
Steve Hendrix has helped me source equipment at 9pm at night. When I bought my S2 from him, I got goofy and tried to put an old tilt shift on the contax adapter (bad move) the night before the shoot. It jammed and I called Steve who was on his roof clearing his gutters.
The next day I had a new adapter. That's the service professionals need.
I own broncolor HMI's, the blue ones. Nobody has them, nobody in the U.S. knows anything about them. If I want a part, a fix, another one . . . Steve finds it. So yea, a good dealer is priceless and when it comes time for me to buy a new medium format anything, Steve is first on my list,
second would be Doug and Lance.
I just wish CI sold motion equipment because they'd get all of my business.
I'll tell you I don't understand why everyone loses their mind over the price of professional cameras, especially medium format. Phase/Leaf/Hasselblad/Leica don't have supenoa power, they just offer a product and it's up to the buyer to make the decision.
If you think there price is too high, don't buy. If you're mad that they won't sell you a $26,000 camera for 8 grand, go a different direction. There is more to costs than upfront.
My ancient Phase backs are still very viable, produce a unique look and the service I get from Capture Integration is the same today as it was when my backs were new, the software is improved every year.
That's a professional requirement that has made me money for a lot of years and I have no worries using it today, or tomorrow and btw: my phase backs have never had one single service. Not even a loose screw. With Leaf I loved the look, some of the best work in my life with their backs, the ONLY issue was way back then with their software which they fixed a billion years ago. Yair is one of the most honest and stand up guys on the planet and will go to extraordinary lengths to save your ass.
So for anyone to get mad at the dealer system is just damn silly. These a pros that should be rewarded for their efforts and none I know are driving 911's or moving into 5,000 sq. ft. beach houses in Malibu.
_____________________
Now in regards to my comments on RED, I don't care who uses an Arri. I know a lot of operators and dps that prefer Arri, none (absolutely none I know) own one as the production company sets the budget and arranges for the equipment. Most DP's own a dslr or a small black magic pocket cam for fun.
Though the dps I know that don't like RED uses them when their shooting on their own money, so it can't be that bad.
Me, I hate renting, I buy.
My RED's (two R1's and the Scarlet) work reliably and professionally, make me money and have never had a repair after going around the world multiple times. I've had one break on a Rocket Card and one EVF had some issues, other than that their bulletproof and my RED rep helps me whether I'm in our London, Dallas or LA facility.
Maybe Arri does also, I'll probably never know because an Alexa is 80 grand my reds were about 24k a body and the Alexa weighs twice what the RED's do, so for my style of work, the Alexa is too big.
And though I work around the world, use equipment from every company, I'm kind of proud that the RED's are made in America. No other pro camera is.
Also I never said RED made a still camera to equal medium format, or even a mid range dslr, but I did say they make cameras for the new media world where motion and still content come together in an electronic pallet. But honestly if the "special frame" is more compelling from the motion grab than the still shot a client will always pick the most compelling image.
_____________________
We have an upcoming print ad that we co op with another company that will run in CA. Today I'm doing concepts, This is my studio's money, the media buy is as much as a Pentax the production costs even more and I know I'll probably shoot it with my ancient Phase backs.
Since this is my face to the world and probably the most important imagery we produce I could use anything.
IMO
BC
P.S. And for a disclaimer, nobody gives me anything for free. I don't ask because knowledgeable people and companies should be compensated for their services.
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could you explain? are you saying this because of the sensor size?
Crosstalk issues, you get limited shifting and/or unstable color rendition (which can't be fixed with LCC), even with Rodenstock Digarons (which are a bit retrofocus unlike the Schneider Digitars). If you do use the Digarons and don't shift much at all you can still be satisfied with the performance, but I would not recommend to anyone buy an expensive digital system where the lens and sensor design match this poorly. For longer lenses it will work fine though, so say for studio table-top photography the CFV-50c is a bargain compared to the competition. On the other hand you could be using a Sony A7r on say an Arca-Swiss MF-two (same crosstalk issues, only good performance on longer lenses) and get an even more cost-effective system, if resolution is enough.
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Hi, here is a quick Dynamic Range test by Mahesh / http://starvingphotographer.com using the 645z.
http://starvingphotographer.com/pentax-645z-real-world-dynamic-range/
He underexposed severely to save highlight detail. Probably more than is required in this case but even so the result is impressive. On a side note, the Pentax 25mm lens seems to be lacking a bit in sharpness (specially close to the borders) and has noticeable CA and some distortions. I found that I needed to sharpen the file a heck of a lot more than my IQ160 files but the end result in the resolution department is good. The file felt a LOT like a tad larger D800E file but with an average lens.
Maybe Michael can chime in and expand on this.
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I guess I don't understand what he means when he says that he "underexposed by two stops". Underexposed from what, based on what?
There is only one proper exposure to maximize DR, and that's ETTR. Since the 645z has real-time exposure warning in Live View that almost exactly matches Lightroom's raw histogram readings, it should be simple to do an optimally exposed shot.
In the end though, I agree with him. The 645z's DR is among the best I've ever seen.
Michael
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I guess I don't understand what he means when he says that he "underexposed by two stops". Underexposed from what, based on what?
based on the content of the scene
let us use FRV ( http://www.fastrawviewer.com/ ) and simulate what will be if we are to add 1 stop more to exposure
(http://s27.postimg.org/gn5tz24pv/frv.jpg)
so he was trying to protect quite useless highlights in those areas, those might be painted by ACR/LR algorithms quite nicely... red (magenta actually) = clipping in 1 channel, blue = clipping in 2 channels, black = in 3 channels
and what if we add 2 more stops = still pretty much not a problem
(http://s12.postimg.org/ha3beqmzh/frv2.jpg)
using LR or ACR to evaluate clipping ? gimme a break !
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amazing what those 35mm and MF exmor sony sensors can capture, the bar its very high for all the next brand sensors.
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Word.
Bottom line on the Pentax is this.
If you work in commerce and your shooting 6 figure projects 9.999 times out of 10 you'll use a phase or a leaf if the job requires medium format.
Pentax played their hand with the D having virtually no tethering, a tiny buffer and no immediate solution for any professional processing suite.
Now with the Z, tethering is in the future, professional support isn't mentioned.
For some that's fine, for me that's not.
I hear Pentax will do this, will do that, set up this, offer that, but that's not today and today most of us are working for a living.
And BTW:: Having a good dealer for Leaf and Phase doesn't mean the products are faulty or lack maturity, it just means you have a true professional to assist you and all of us or only as good as who we work with.
EVERY camera company has had issues. Even deep pockets Nikon, Canon and Sony have pushed stuff out too soon.
Example: (One of many)
Steve Hendrix has helped me source equipment at 9pm at night. When I bought my S2 from him, I got goofy and tried to put an old tilt shift on the contax adapter (bad move) the night before the shoot. It jammed and I called Steve who was on his roof clearing his gutters.
The next day I had a new adapter. That's the service professionals need.
I own broncolor HMI's, the blue ones. Nobody has them, nobody in the U.S. knows anything about them. If I want a part, a fix, another one . . . Steve finds it. So yea, a good dealer is priceless and when it comes time for me to buy a new medium format anything, Steve is first on my list,
second would be Doug and Lance.
I just wish CI sold motion equipment because they'd get all of my business.
I'll tell you I don't understand why everyone loses their mind over the price of professional cameras, especially medium format. Phase/Leaf/Hasselblad/Leica don't have supenoa power, they just offer a product and it's up to the buyer to make the decision.
If you think there price is too high, don't buy. If you're mad that they won't sell you a $26,000 camera for 8 grand, go a different direction. There is more to costs than upfront.
My ancient Phase backs are still very viable, produce a unique look and the service I get from Capture Integration is the same today as it was when my backs were new, the software is improved every year.
That's a professional requirement that has made me money for a lot of years and I have no worries using it today, or tomorrow and btw: my phase backs have never had one single service. Not even a loose screw. With Leaf I loved the look, some of the best work in my life with their backs, the ONLY issue was way back then with their software which they fixed a billion years ago. Yair is one of the most honest and stand up guys on the planet and will go to extraordinary lengths to save your ass.
So for anyone to get mad at the dealer system is just damn silly. These a pros that should be rewarded for their efforts and none I know are driving 911's or moving into 5,000 sq. ft. beach houses in Malibu.
_____________________
Now in regards to my comments on RED, I don't care who uses an Arri. I know a lot of operators and dps that prefer Arri, none (absolutely none I know) own one as the production company sets the budget and arranges for the equipment. Most DP's own a dslr or a small black magic pocket cam for fun.
Though the dps I know that don't like RED uses them when their shooting on their own money, so it can't be that bad.
Me, I hate renting, I buy.
My RED's (two R1's and the Scarlet) work reliably and professionally, make me money and have never had a repair after going around the world multiple times. I've had one break on a Rocket Card and one EVF had some issues, other than that their bulletproof and my RED rep helps me whether I'm in our London, Dallas or LA facility.
Maybe Arri does also, I'll probably never know because an Alexa is 80 grand my reds were about 24k a body and the Alexa weighs twice what the RED's do, so for my style of work, the Alexa is too big.
And though I work around the world, use equipment from every company, I'm kind of proud that the RED's are made in America. No other pro camera is.
Also I never said RED made a still camera to equal medium format, or even a mid range dslr, but I did say they make cameras for the new media world where motion and still content come together in an electronic pallet. But honestly if the "special frame" is more compelling from the motion grab than the still shot a client will always pick the most compelling image.
_____________________
We have an upcoming print ad that we co op with another company that will run in CA. Today I'm doing concepts, This is my studio's money, the media buy is as much as a Pentax the production costs even more and I know I'll probably shoot it with my ancient Phase backs.
Since this is my face to the world and probably the most important imagery we produce I could use anything.
IMO
BC
P.S. And for a disclaimer, nobody gives me anything for free. I don't ask because knowledgeable people and companies should be compensated for their services.
Do you expect anybody to read all this just to reply or quote on it on a forum? :o
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I guess I don't understand what he means when he says that he "underexposed by two stops". Underexposed from what, based on what?
There is only one proper exposure to maximize DR, and that's ETTR. Since the 645z has real-time exposure warning in Live View that almost exactly matches Lightroom's raw histogram readings, it should be simple to do an optimally exposed shot.
In the end though, I agree with him. The 645z's DR is among the best I've ever seen.
Michael
He obviously considers not the maximum DR, but to protect HLs to the maximum because he considers extra LL information to be useless in the scene... I also do that in some cases, it's a matter of choice on what one thinks as most important on a scene... ETTR, may give max DR, but it also means that in certain scenes one may get HLs blown just to have useless information (to his judgement) present in LLs... In such a case, one may consider to ignore the extra info in LLs, just to protect HLs as much as possible. ETTR is a technical matter, photography is ...a photographer's matter.
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Do you expect
I expect Peace, Love and my own aqua blue Gulfstream.
Maybe my expectations are too high.
IMO
BC
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I expect Peace, Love and my own aqua blue Gulfstream.
Maybe my expectations are too high.
IMO
BC
Your peace, love, or Aqua blue gulfstream, are not mentioned in the post that I quoted.... (see? ....you made me read it! ;D)
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BC,
You are optimistic on the Peace part. The other two I guess you either already have or may achieve.
Thanks for posting anyway! Yes, your writing may be a bit on the long side, but it is good information from someone who has been there and done that. I really enjoy your posting!
Best regards
Erik
I expect Peace, Love and my own aqua blue Gulfstream.
Maybe my expectations are too high.
IMO
BC
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Do you expect anybody to read all this just to reply or quote on it on a forum? :o
I, for one, really enjoy BC's posts. I find it very interesting to read his opinions and I learn a lot from him.
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I can relate to those (BC's posts) more than the all the handwringing, angst and aggressive fanboyism.
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I think commercial pros' point of view is very important since they appreciate the high efficiency of the camera system because of the high demanding shooting condition. But at the same time, commercial-pros view is not necessarily more important than non commercial-pros view.
I assume that in this forum, each group should maintain relatively similar importance.
I think it's an important aspect to have almost highest IQ without spending too much money with this new system.
I'm wondering the quality of Pentax lenses compared with Hassel HCs especially 120mm macro which I understand relatively well.
Without understanding the available lenses, the final IQ is difficult to tell, I guess.
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I expect Peace, Love and my own aqua blue Gulfstream.
Maybe my expectations are too high.
IMO
BC
Maybe 'cause you don't use the word "Nyquist" enough in your posts. ;)
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Nyquist? Are they a grunge rock band from Seattle?
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Nyquist? Are they a grunge rock band from Seattle?
Either that or a nighttime liquid cold remedy.
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I, for one, really enjoy BC's posts. I find it very interesting to read his opinions and I learn a lot from him.
Me too, It was a joke about the size of it! :)
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Hi,
Thanks for making that clear :-)
Best regards
Erik
Me too, It was a joke about the size of it! :)
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Fastrawviewer seems a wonderful aid for such discussions. However, I disagree with your pov that highlights in those areas *in this image* are useless because they can be rebuilt, the human eye is extremely sensitive to slight hue changes close to "white" and you need to get these exactly right in an image, it makes all the difference for the perception of the sky and thus the ambience. I used to spend my time clicking around like crazy in the cloud edges to find the right white point for the rest of the image - the differences don't show up that much on a normal print, but if you enlarge to 44" the eye becomes really sensitive to sky tone variations especially for the highlit clouds. For a normal image, or viewed at small size btw, I would agree with you.
Who knows, maybe if we chant "Nyquist" or "ETTR" enough, peace will descend on the middle east, Ukraine and the location the artist now known as Cooter lives. Now, before the todler comes back and starts yelling, I am going to take myself out for coffee and a stare at the girls showing off their summer legs in the autumn sun, and I wish all ye merrymen a good day ;)
Edmund
based on the content of the scene
let us use FRV ( http://www.fastrawviewer.com/ ) and simulate what will be if we are to add 1 stop more to exposure
(http://s27.postimg.org/gn5tz24pv/frv.jpg)
so he was trying to protect quite useless highlights in those areas, those might be painted by ACR/LR algorithms quite nicely... red (magenta actually) = clipping in 1 channel, blue = clipping in 2 channels, black = in 3 channels
and what if we add 2 more stops = still pretty much not a problem
(http://s12.postimg.org/ha3beqmzh/frv2.jpg)
using LR or ACR to evaluate clipping ? gimme a break !
-
Fastrawviewer seems a wonderful aid for such discussions. However, I disagree with your pov that highlights in those areas *in this image* are useless because they can be rebuilt, the human eye is extremely sensitive to slight hue changes close to "white" and you need to get these exactly right in an image, it makes all the difference for the perception of the sky and thus the ambience. I used to spend my time clicking around like crazy in the cloud edges to find the right white point for the rest of the image - the differences don't show up that much on a normal print, but if you enlarge to 44" the eye becomes really sensitive to sky tone variations especially for the highlit clouds. For a normal image, or viewed at small size btw, I would agree with you.
we can probably do an experiement - bracket, supply you with "underexposed" raw, collect your xmp and see what "overexposed" raw looks like... but just in case with untwisted profiles if we are talking about ACR/LR