Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: jojo204 on July 05, 2014, 04:51:14 pm
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Hey guys
So I have an Elinchrom Ranger RX speed with A head. Im trying to get it to shoot faster than 1/250 with my Credo 40 and 80LS lens. I have tried it with the pocketwizard powerST4 with no avail. I have tried it with miniTT1 and flexTT5. I put them in trigger only mode and still no go. I even tried with just my plus II and still nothing. With my Quadra sets and using the skyport triggers i can get it right up to 1/1600 with no problems at all.
even in B plug no effect
Any help would be greatly appreciated
thanks
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Hey guys
So I have an Elinchrom Ranger RX speed with A head. Im trying to get it to shoot faster than 1/250 with my Credo 40 and 80LS lens. I have tried it with the pocketwizard powerST4 with no avail. I have tried it with miniTT1 and flexTT5. I put them in trigger only mode and still no go. I even tried with just my plus II and still nothing. With my Quadra sets and using the skyport triggers i can get it right up to 1/1600 with no problems at all.
even in B plug no effect
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Hi,
I suggest you get into contact with Frank Doorhof (http://www.frankdoorhof.com/site/), since he is very experienced with e.g. jump photography with the Elinchrom range of products. He is a kind of ambassador for their products, for a reason ...
From what I've heard, adding an additional flash head (even if not used for the actual exposure) in certain arrangements will cut the effective exposure time by the flash to a fraction. Again, I'm not an expert on Elinchrom, Frank on the other hand is!
Cheers,
Bart
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I use 1/1600s flash sync regularly with the Profoto Air system. It was my understanding that this was the only solution for syncing that fast. I use a Credo 60 with the 80LS and 110LS routinely with the Profoto 8A and the Profoto B4's. The DF/DF+ can be used with either the Profoto Air grip or with a standard Profoto Air transceiver on the DF/DF+ hotshoe. It works both ways.
The packs must have Profoto Air receiver radios built-in or an Air transceiver needs to be connected to the sync port.
Hope this helps.
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I use 1/1600s flash sync regularly with the Profoto Air system. It was my understanding that this was the only solution for syncing that fast. I use a Credo 60 with the 80LS and 110LS routinely. The DF/DF+ can be used with either the Profoto Air grip or with a standard Profoto Air transceiver on the DF/DF+ hotshoe. It works both ways.
The packs must have Profoto Air receiver radios built-in or an Air transceiver needs to be connected to the sync port.
Hope this helps.
Its not just Profoto that has the monopoly on high flash sync and while you may be able to sync at these speeds with Profoto gear the trade off will be loss of power output/exposure on much of their less expensive kit due to poor flash durations, especially as the power of the pack/head climbs. Profoto seem to make their kit sound more impressive by quoting t.05 flash duration times in their specs but for high speed sync this is a poor measurement of flash output. Hensel, Broncolor, PCB are other names that spring to mind that are able to sync at high sync speeds.
To the OP, try using a sync cable as high speed sync is often limited by the triggers used rather than the pack/head.
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None of pocketwizard's syncs can handle 1/1600th. You're being limited by the pocketwizard.
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What Doug said. I have two of those packs and a Credo 40 (H). I use the elinchrom skyports speed to sync at 1/800 with no problems. When I've tried those wizards I can't get past 1/500.
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The question that seems unanswered, to me anyway, is why the OP is trying to achieve the shorter exposure time setting.
Is it to freeze motion, by using the slowly decaying tail of the flash output curve as a constant lightsource and the shutterspeed for stopping motion, and also reduce ambient light influence by doing so? Or is he trying to freeze motion by using a shorter flash duration, with an electronic limitation of flash output curve, in an otherwise controlled ambient lighting situation.
Cheers,
Bart
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None of pocketwizard's syncs can handle 1/1600th. You're being limited by the pocketwizard.
+1. Except I do believe there is a way to program the new Pocket Wizard III transceiver to handle faster wireless flash sync triggering, also assuming that your lights have shorter flash duration to match your camera and lens capabilities.
Least expensive route to take advantage of Phase/Leaf faster flash sync speeds using a wireless trigger is the PCB cybersync transceiver CSXCV and Einstein combination with the CST trigger transmitter on the camera hotshoe. Not as nice as Profoto, Bron, and Hensel options, but it is at a fraction of the cost.
ken
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+1. Except I do believe there is a way to program the new Pocket Wizard III transceiver to handle faster wireless flash sync triggering, also assuming that your lights have shorter flash duration to match your camera and lens.
Yep. And if you already have a lot of PW gear you should look into fine tuning every last ounce and setting very last option. But as far as I know none of these adjustments will get you to a full 1/1600th.
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Some years back I ran into this limitation with my Pocket wizards and when I've wanted to use the faster sync speeds on my Hy6, I've just had to go old school with a wired sync cable. 10meter cable is like $30
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Hi,
1. if you want the fastest freezing speed
combine 2 A heads on the Ranger RX or Quadra, and use them on full power.
2 heads are faster than 1.
2. If you want fastest shutter speed
Use the sky port system on speed setting
You will be able to sync all the way up to 1/1600 BUT.... anything above 1/1000 you will loose output in my experience except on the S-heads.
So it's a bit of a tradeoff.
3. If you don't have sky ports.....
Use the standard sync cable.
Hope this helps.
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Its not just Profoto that has the monopoly on high flash sync and while you may be able to sync at these speeds with Profoto gear the trade off will be loss of power output/exposure on much of their less expensive kit due to poor flash durations, especially as the power of the pack/head climbs. Profoto seem to make their kit sound more impressive by quoting t.05 flash duration times in their specs but for high speed sync this is a poor measurement of flash output. Hensel, Broncolor, PCB are other names that spring to mind that are able to sync at high sync speeds.
To the OP, try using a sync cable as high speed sync is often limited by the triggers used rather than the pack/head.
I have not experienced any loss in power output or exposure that you speak of. I am using the Profoto Pro 8A and several Profoto B4's. I use them weekly outside, in the bright sun and shoot at f2.8 at 1/1600s. Have shot hundreds of photos this way. I've never had any problem, loss of power or exposure. Works every time very reliably.
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I've been able to sync up to 1/1600 with the phase LS lenses and my rangers with both A heads and converted acute heads. I've also been regularly syncing up to 1/800 on my h4x with the same lights. All of this has been with my 12 year old pocket wizard plus kit (the 4 channel black ones).
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Hi Jojo,
I used to work at PocketWizard's tech support department, right up with the engineers in Burlington Vermont. Now that I'm with Capture Integration, a few of my coworkers pointed me over to your post to see if I could help.
A lot of the issues users experience with their flashes and their radios above their camera's nominal sync speed is due to two factors:
1.) Radio Latency delay due to processing time.
2.) Flash duration.
Radio latency delay is simply the time it takes for the transmitting radio's signal to go through the receiving radio's antenna to exiting the radio's miniphone port. Typically, the radio latency of a PocketWizard Plus III, PlusX, or MultiMAX is about 500 microseconds, or 1/2000th of a second. Newer ControlTL units like the MiniTT1 and FlexTT5 tend to follow the same 500 microseconds limitation, although (with compatible cameras) they work around sync timing by doing some of the transmission before your camera's shutter even opens. DF bodies aren't compatible, however, so you'd need to use these radios in Basic Trigger mode, which limits you to the normal 500 microseconds processing time.
However, most models of the MultiMAX and all Plus III radios have a mode called FAST mode. This shortens the microprocessing time to 250 microseconds, or 1/4000th of a second. This gets the signal out must faster, and allows you to sync at higher shutter speeds when using leaf shutters.
When you start getting faster and faster speeds, you run up against the flash duration side of the equation. Remember, the amount of light in your scene is additive. When you have a longer flash duration, it takes longer for the entire flash output to be rendered to your scene. When you're using higher shutter speeds, you can run into the scenario where you get less overall flash intensity in frame because the flash hasn't full put out all of its juice. On focal plane shutters, this can be shadowing at the bottom of the frame, but with leaf shutters, this can be darker images than at the rated X-sync speed of the camera.
The good news for you is that it's not your flash gear itself that's the problem, it's the radios.
Unfortunately, with the radios you have (the Plus II, MiniTT1, and FlexTT5) there are no ways to get FAST mode enabled. You'd need to use a MultiMAX with FAST mode (one of the USB models would do nicely,) or a Plus III. You'd need, bare minimum, one of those radios, and then you could use a MiniTT1 or a FlexTT5 on your camera. You cannot use a Plus II as a transmitter in this scenario because it does not transmit on the Channels required for FAST mode.
For a tl;dr summary, the radio gear you have right now won't allow you to tap the maximum potential of your leaf shutters; you'd need a Plus III or MultiMAX in FAST mode on your lights, and a Plus III, MultiMAX, or one of your MiniTT1s or FlexTT5s (set to Standard Transmit Channel 17 or higher) on your camera body.
You can see Capture Integration's test results with this setup here: https://captureintegration.com/definitive-guide-to-medium-format-high-speed-sync/
Using that post's information (it was created and tested before my time here) you can get up to 1/1600th with a Mamiya DF body and a Credo back.
Hope that helps! If you have any questions, let me know!
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Hi Jojo,
I used to work at PocketWizard's tech support department, right up with the engineers in Burlington Vermont. Now that I'm with Capture Integration, a few of my coworkers pointed me over to your post to see if I could help.
A lot of the issues users experience with their flashes and their radios above their camera's nominal sync speed is due to two factors:
1.) Radio Latency delay due to processing time.
2.) Flash duration.
Radio latency delay is simply the time it takes for the transmitting radio's signal to go through the receiving radio's antenna to exiting the radio's miniphone port. Typically, the radio latency of a PocketWizard Plus III, PlusX, or MultiMAX is about 500 microseconds, or 1/2000th of a second. Newer ControlTL units like the MiniTT1 and FlexTT5 tend to follow the same 500 microseconds limitation, although (with compatible cameras) they work around sync timing by doing some of the transmission before your camera's shutter even opens. DF bodies aren't compatible, however, so you'd need to use these radios in Basic Trigger mode, which limits you to the normal 500 microseconds processing time.
However, most models of the MultiMAX and all Plus III radios have a mode called FAST mode. This shortens the microprocessing time to 250 microseconds, or 1/4000th of a second. This gets the signal out must faster, and allows you to sync at higher shutter speeds when using leaf shutters.
When you start getting faster and faster speeds, you run up against the flash duration side of the equation. Remember, the amount of light in your scene is additive. When you have a longer flash duration, it takes longer for the entire flash output to be rendered to your scene. When you're using higher shutter speeds, you can run into the scenario where you get less overall flash intensity in frame because the flash hasn't full put out all of its juice. On focal plane shutters, this can be shadowing at the bottom of the frame, but with leaf shutters, this can be darker images than at the rated X-sync speed of the camera.
The good news for you is that it's not your flash gear itself that's the problem, it's the radios.
Unfortunately, with the radios you have (the Plus II, MiniTT1, and FlexTT5) there are no ways to get FAST mode enabled. You'd need to use a MultiMAX with FAST mode (one of the USB models would do nicely,) or a Plus III. You'd need, bare minimum, one of those radios, and then you could use a MiniTT1 or a FlexTT5 on your camera. You cannot use a Plus II as a transmitter in this scenario because it does not transmit on the Channels required for FAST mode.
For a tl;dr summary, the radio gear you have right now won't allow you to tap the maximum potential of your leaf shutters; you'd need a Plus III or MultiMAX in FAST mode on your lights, and a Plus III, MultiMAX, or one of your MiniTT1s or FlexTT5s (set to Standard Transmit Channel 17 or higher) on your camera body.
You can see Capture Integration's test results with this setup here: https://captureintegration.com/definitive-guide-to-medium-format-high-speed-sync/
Using that post's information (it was created and tested before my time here) you can get up to 1/1600th with a Mamiya DF body and a Credo back.
Hope that helps! If you have any questions, let me know!
Obviously you know way more about this than me. I basically plug in what's in front of me and see what works. How would you explain how mine work with the Plus II set up? I've not had an issue at all syncing that fast with LS lenses (both phase and blad). I'm not trying to disprove anything you said, I'm just curious.
-C
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Obviously you know way more about this than me. I basically plug in what's in front of me and see what works. How would you explain how mine work with the Plus II set up? I've not had an issue at all syncing that fast with LS lenses (both phase and blad). I'm not trying to disprove anything you said, I'm just curious.
Pull the gear out, put it in a dark room (so that there is no ambient light) and shoot the same power setting on the light at 1/200th, 1/800th, and 1/1600th. You should notice the 1/1600th is significantly darker even though the flash fired at the same power because your pocketwizards weren't able to fire the flash in perfect sync and therefore the camera only saw a fraction of the flash output.
If you see identical exposures out of all three (or even pretty close exposures) please let us know as it would defy everything we know about PocketWizard high-speed sync and could lead to some interesting experimentation/research to see why it's working when it should not.
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I'm not able to draw something here (iPad) but a lot of people see strobes not the way they are.
Let's look at a slow strobe lets say with a flash duration of 1/800
It will look like this 0000001111111111111111110000000
In which the zeros are no strobe and the 1s are the strobe.
Now look at a very fast strobe with a flash duration of 1/5000
It will look like this 0000001111000000000000000000000
Same period of time but the strobe is there much shorter.
If you shoot on 1/125 there is no problem, the strobe is nicely recorded in all the range from the start of the 0s to the end of the 0s. However if you raise your shutter speed the range will be shorter in which the strobe is captured. The change that you cut the strobe in its rise or cut off is very likely with fast strobes.
Meaning if you shoot on 1/125 you will get f16
If you shoot on 1/500 you will get probably f16
But on 1/1000 you will start to get for example f11.3
And on 1/1600 probably around f8.5
Depending on the flash duration these numbers can be cut considerably. This is why with the hypersync from PW the fastest possible speeds are often achieved with slow strobes (d-lites etc) while with a heads on a ranger I never achieved anything higher than 1/320 on a canon 5d.
Take into account that a strobe has a rise and cutoff (this is for example one of the reasons water seems to fall up instead of down when freezing it) and your trigger has a certain delay and you will quickly find out that it's impossible to say that all strobes should sync at ......
Now also know that a strobe unit will have different flash durations over its power range and you will also realize that it's a can of worms ;)
Best is to just try it out and remember for your gear and setting what works and use that.
If you want high shutterspeeds take slow strobes, if you want to freeze motion take very fast strobes and a slower shutterspeed but use ND filters.
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Obviously you know way more about this than me. I basically plug in what's in front of me and see what works. How would you explain how mine work with the Plus II set up? I've not had an issue at all syncing that fast with LS lenses (both phase and blad). I'm not trying to disprove anything you said, I'm just curious.
-C
It's totally true that it works (as in that it syncs and doesn't show shutter blades or curtains,) but there is going to be a BIG difference between shots done with a Plus II and shots done with a Plus III. Due to the difference in processing speeds between the modes, you can expect a massive difference in overall flash intensity in frame. I've shown a few examples below:
Mamiya 645 DF+ Body
Leaf Credo 40
Schneider Kreuznach 110mm LS f/2.8 AF
Profoto Acute 2 @ 1/2 power -2 stops
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uzowjyh1gwj747j/AAADSh6u7rtqOMKpI9rzOnnca/1.FAST%20Plus%20III%20vs%20Plus%20II.jpg
You can view a full folder of each radio method from 1/125th to 1/2000th here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uzowjyh1gwj747j/AAClm_a3j9HyvWd_aVUkVRAFa
As you can see, at 1/2000th the shutter switches to focal plane and you get zero sync with either method.
Again, it's a case of "It works, but it can work better and let you better tap the potential of your gear."
To tie it back to the original poster's comment, we need to know exactly what camera he's using, as it may be different from my setup. I made it the same as yours, Cal, so I could see what effects I'd get.
Hope that helps!
Frank is pretty much dead on as to how PocketWizard HyperSync works, as well. If I can get myself a flash output illustration, I'll draw up a timing illustration so as to better showcase what you get visually. Unfortunately, as I no longer have access to an oscilloscope, I can't show you the EXACT curve of the EXACT flash used in the examples.
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I understand how hyper sync works. The way I explain it to people is it's basically like a scan of the lit scene (fast shutter over the slow strobe). I also know that the faster sync with my system cuts a bit off the tail as well. I had thought that the original poster had not gotten any sync at all.
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I have not experienced any loss in power output or exposure that you speak of. I am using the Profoto Pro 8A and several Profoto B4's. I use them weekly outside, in the bright sun and shoot at f2.8 at 1/1600s. Have shot hundreds of photos this way. I've never had any problem, loss of power or exposure. Works every time very reliably.
Mainly because you are using the very top of the range Profoto equipment however, in bright outdoor conditions and using the higher power settings on the packs the flash durations could be as low as 1/500s and if you're shooting at 1/1600s then there will be a loss of flash power. Possibly as you have lots of power on tap you have the luxury of just dialing up the packs more to compensate?
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I understand how hyper sync works. The way I explain it to people is it's basically like a scan of the lit scene (fast shutter over the slow strobe). I also know that the faster sync with my system cuts a bit off the tail as well. I had thought that the original poster had not gotten any sync at all.
That's pretty much the exact way I'd explain it as well. I usually substituted Xerox, but I had a lot of younger customers asking "What's a Xerox?" Go figure...
I agree that the original customer's problem has not been fully solved, but without knowing exactly what camera he has, I can't try that out here to see how it works. He might have a camera that doesn't support using leaf shutters alone, or some other problem entirely.
Mainly because you are using the very top of the range Profoto equipment however, in bright outdoor conditions and using the higher power settings on the packs the flash durations could be as low as 1/500s and if you're shooting at 1/1600s then there will be a loss of flash power. Possibly as you have lots of power on tap you have the luxury of just dialing up the packs more to compensate?
That's my guess as well. The faster the flash duration, the less power loss you'll notice in the long run. Consider the following images I created while working at PocketWizard, taken from osciliscope readings of a Ranger RX pack with the A-head vs the S-head:
(http://wiki.pocketwizard.com/images/0/09/Ranger_RX_A-head_7.5_Power_Flash_Duration.JPG)
(http://wiki.pocketwizard.com/images/0/09/Ranger_RX_A-head_7.5_Power_Flash_Duration.JPG)
Both of these readings were done with the exact same pack, therefore they're putting out the same output of power. However, the peak amplitude of the A head is nearly twice as much as the S head because it puts out all that power in close to half the time. The timing is so important with the leaf shutter usage, as the shorter the shutter speed, the less time the camera has to "see" the output of the flash head. Faster flash heads get more of the overall power in frame faster, and reduce the amount of light loss you'll end up with.
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Pull the gear out, put it in a dark room (so that there is no ambient light) and shoot the same power setting on the light at 1/200th, 1/800th, and 1/1600th. You should notice the 1/1600th is significantly darker even though the flash fired at the same power because your pocketwizards weren't able to fire the flash in perfect sync and therefore the camera only saw a fraction of the flash output.
If you see identical exposures out of all three (or even pretty close exposures) please let us know as it would defy everything we know about PocketWizard high-speed sync and could lead to some interesting experimentation/research to see why it's working when it should not.
So I just did that test. Using:
RangerRXAS pack with A head on B channel full power
H4X with Credo 40 back HCD 35-90 ISO 50, f11
Pocket wizard Plus kit
readings from middle of frame are:
1/60=248
1/125=248
1/250=248
1/500=248
1/800=235
It's about the fall off I've expected, not drastic, but I'm a portrait shooter and am somewhat cavalier with adjustments in post when I need to be. Are these the numbers you would expect?
Thanks,
Craig
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So I just did that test. Using:
RangerRXAS pack with A head on B channel full power
H4X with Credo 40 back HCD 35-90 ISO 50, f11
Pocket wizard Plus kit
readings from middle of frame are:
1/60=248
1/125=248
1/250=248
1/500=248
1/800=235
It's about the fall off I've expected, not drastic, but I'm a portrait shooter and am somewhat cavalier with adjustments in post when I need to be. Are these the numbers you would expect?
Thanks,
Craig
Hey Craig,
That actually does make sense to me. The Ranger RX AS with the A head has a flash duration of 1/5120th of a second (according to manufacturer specs. Given that your exposure takes longer than that, the reduction from 248 to 235 is likely due to the speed of the leaf shutter blades themselves just barely catching the end of the exposure.
If you were using the S head, you'd likely see a greater fall off because more of the flash duration happens AFTER the shutter blades have finally closed.
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The same test with a converted Acute head on same pack and settings is (The base 1/125 number could be different based on the head not being aimed exactly the same (stand not different, just different head) and a different reflector obviously)
1/60=225
1/125=225
1/250=225
1/500=220
1/800=184
So obviously the Acute head has a longer flash duration and/or a slower trigger delay. I also expected this.
-C
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The same test with a converted Acute head on same pack and settings is (The base 1/125 number could be different based on the head not being aimed exactly the same (stand not different, just different head) and a different reflector obviously)
1/60=225
1/125=225
1/250=225
1/500=220
1/800=184
So obviously the Acute head has a longer flash duration and/or a slower trigger delay. I also expected this.
-C
While I don't know what the flash duration of the Acute head is exactly with that pack, that makes sense to me. It'd be interesting to see an S head vs an A head on the same pack, same position. If I had one I'd break it out!
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Either way find them close enough to not worry about using them at fastest LS speed knowing I can compensate in post, or aperture etc, etc. For fun I'll try a hard sync if I can find it. Stay tuned...
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Plus I don't know how much of the acute head is actually still "acute". It's the same flash tube and housing, but I'm not sure how much of the innards were changed when Peter at Flashclinic converted it for me (I wanted to still use the PF shapers I had)
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FWIW I got the same numbers with the hard sync as I did with the old Plus PW kit while using the A head. So do you think that a PW III kit would improve over the hard line sync or am I maxing out what I can do with the H4X/Ranger combo?
-C
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FWIW I got the same numbers with the hard sync as I did with the old Plus PW kit while using the A head. So do you think that a PW III kit would improve over the hard line sync or am I maxing out what I can do with the H4X/Ranger combo?
-C
Nothing will beat cabled sync. With your combination, you likely have a fast enough flash that there's not much advantage to the Plus III's FAST mode over the Plus/Plus II kit. If you had a slower flash, or your particular camera body's shutters travelled slower, then that might be different. As I showed in the 2nd post, with slower flashes, FAST mode can make a big difference. It also reminds me of my HyperSync testing days, because every single camera body and camera manufacturer uses a different shutter in their cameras, and some even differ from line to line. Much like how the 5D Mark III and the 1Dx have different speed shutter travel, your H4x might be much faster than a Phase DF+ body. I don't have the equipment here to measure the FP shutters in the bodies, and I've never tried it with leaf shutters themselves, let alone ones in lenses. Needless to say, it's one of those applications where trying it yourself in edge situations is the best, and it sounds like you've gotten your gear pretty well checked out!
For basic "how fast can I go with X back" questions, our blog post still works great. (https://captureintegration.com/definitive-guide-to-medium-format-high-speed-sync/) In terms of actual light loss, though, it might be a real bear testing all the possible permutations. There's four factors involved in that: the shutter in the lens, the shutter in the body, the flash duration of the flash themselves, and the power level of the flashes. I'm no mathmetician, but the number of possible permutations of that makes it pretty impossible to have a fully published list, formulae, or anything similar to what you can expect for power loss.
So, another tl;dr summary to end that: To get the least amount of light loss possible, you'll get the best results with leaf lenses vs FP shutters, and the fastest flash duration strobe you can. You will, unfortunately, likely have to test that exact combination of gear yourself for best results.
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Chris,
Just looked at the blog page. One note is that RZ is listed with FP Shutter. RZ is leaf shutter only.
-C
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Chris,
Just looked at the blog page. One note is that RZ is listed with FP Shutter. RZ is leaf shutter only.
-C
Darn it, discovered we're not perfect again. Thanks for letting us know C. BTW - the very funny thing about this is that the man who put together that post - Zac Henderson - happened to stop by the office today. And I asked him - RZ, focal pane or leaf shutter? And he said leaf shutter. So clearly, he did not have his coffee when he inserted that field. And I was able to give him a very hard time about that! ;D
https://captureintegration.com/zac-is-off-on-the-adventure-of-a-lifetime-2/
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Chris,
Just looked at the blog page. One note is that RZ is listed with FP Shutter. RZ is leaf shutter only.
-C
Shoot! I was looking at that page to edit up the PocketWizard side of things, should have gotten a full shakedown. Thanks for letting us know!
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Hey Guys
Wow thanks for all the info and help on this. What a great community!
So after reading though and going out and getting 2 PW Plus III and doing a bit more fiddling around and countless combinations. I found the best way to get to 1/1600 was the CI blog method only loosing about 1/3-4 of a stop in light loss using the fast mode on the PW Plus III. anything from 1/160 - 1/400 was the same. Above 1/400 is when it dropped but even all the way up too 1/1600.
I was able to get it to finally go using Plus III on the Ranger and Plus II or FlexTT5 on the DF+ but it was about a full stop difference from 1/320 to 1/1600. with MiniTT in i couldnt even get it to go past f/320, Then when I switched it to trigger only it dropped 2 stops from 1/500 to 1/800. Any other combination like Plus II to Plus II or Plus II to FlexTT(trigger only mode) was all about the same.
Then trying port A only and then B only they trying 2 heads really didnt make to much of a difference with the Plus III fast mode method. When not using that mode 2 heads and B only got better results but still about a half stop loss from 1/400 to 1/800.
so after all that what have I learned... Who wants to buy some pocket wizards and elinchrom rangers lol
thanks again for all the input and help.
and now my accumulated Pocket Wizard Collection. Have they offered an IPO yet haha
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Glad to hear you got it working!
The MiniTT1 and FlexTT5 are interesting because they, by default, operate on ControlTL Channels. When used with a compatible system, those radios are great, because they can use TTL, remote power control, HyperSync, and other advanced features. Unfortunately, those features require a compatible camera, because the TTL, HyperSync, and other signals are much more complex (and longer) signals than the Plus IIs "hey, fire!" signal. Canon and Nikon radios can send those complex signals before the shutter opens on compatible cameras, making timing less of an issue.
However, unless you enable "Basic Trigger mode" on both the MiniTT1 and FlexTT5, you'll be using those same ControlTL signals on your DF+. This means you'll be getting all that complex (long) communications sent out at your X-sync trigger, when the shutter is open. Flash sync is the last signal sent out, and after the other signals, is delayed. This helps contribute to your overall light loss. If you weren't using a LS lens, you'd probably find out that you couldn't even sync up to the nominal sync speed of the camera itself; if you use ControlTL defaults on a non-compatible focal plane shutter, you'll end up losing a stop or more of sync speed.
Do you have both S-heads and A-heads? If you do, I'm curious if you saw any difference in performance between the two using two Plus IIIs in FAST mode. I'd assume that the A-head would perform better in terms of less light loss from shutter speed to shutter speed.
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Yeah unfortunately I only have 2 A heads. Now all this testing was in my office. hope it carries in real world work lol
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I know this is a curve ball but has anyone done similar testing with the bron move system and their rfs? I've demoed that system with my old 5dmkii but didn't test any LS lens as I didn't have the hassy system at the time. There are a lot if reasons I'd like to switch to this system and move on from the great in its time ranger set up.
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I know this is a curve ball but has anyone done similar testing with the bron move system and their rfs? I've demoed that system with my old 5dmkii but didn't test any LS lens as I didn't have the hassy system at the time. There are a lot if reasons I'd like to switch to this system and move on from the great in its time ranger set up.
Hi Craig -
The High Sync Speed link that Chris referenced earlier in the thread indicates that RFS-1 will sync at up to 1/500th and RFS-2 will sync at the full 1/1600th (at least with DF/DF+ and Schneider Leaf Shutter lenses).
https://captureintegration.com/definitive-guide-to-medium-format-high-speed-sync/
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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I know this is a curve ball but has anyone done similar testing with the bron move system and their rfs?
Bron's RFS 2.1 will give you full sync up to 1/1500s. I think its a wonderful trigger and once you get your head around its menu and lack of buttons its very, very easy to use. The battery in them lasts a long time and the transmitter itself in tiny in comparison to pocket wizard/airsync etc which I think is brilliant. The only down side to the RFS 2 system is they are transmitters only until you add a USB power source where they automatically switch to receivers. Not a problem when using RFS 2 packs (Move, Scoro) but if you need to sync a speedlight then you will need an additional USB battery back.
Sync wise, Move will sync with your 1/1600s shutter and experience no power loss up to a max of 425Ws in Speed mode. Above this you will loose flash power, however how much and its effect on exposure will depend on the camera/lens combination.. 600Ws in Speed mode (that is full power in Speed) is 1/1000s t.01.
I think the Bron Move is an amazing pack and comes very highly recommended from an ex Profoto user who didn't like the Pro-B4. The MobiLED head are a work of art also.
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I think the Bron Move is an amazing pack and comes very highly recommended from an ex Profoto user who didn't like the Pro-B4. The MobiLED head are a work of art also.
just out of curiosity... what's not to like in the profoto B4? it seems "perfect"
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just out of curiosity... what's not to like in the profoto B4?
Apart from the sticker price, zilch !
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Apart from the sticker price, zilch !
Yeah... it could miss a zero if you ask me ;D
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just out of curiosity... what's not to like in the profoto B4? it seems "perfect"
Taking cost out of the equation, size and weight are a massive issue with the B4. Next to each other the Move looks like a toy but is much more feature packed, more powerful, wider range of "optimal" flash duration, more colour stable etc, etc.
I tried the B1's and while a great light I prefer a separate pack/head. I was all set to buy a couple of B4's to go along with my AcuteB's until I was introduced to Bron and the Move at a trade show and it was enough for me to dump all my profoto gear and jump ship. I honestly think anyone who tries a Move will be hooked, they're that good.
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Taking cost out of the equation, size and weight are a massive issue with the B4. Next to each other the Move looks like a toy but is much more feature packed, more powerful, wider range of "optimal" flash duration, more colour stable etc, etc.
I tried the B1's and while a great light I prefer a separate pack/head. I was all set to buy a couple of B4's to go along with my AcuteB's until I was introduced to Bron and the Move at a trade show and it was enough for me to dump all my profoto gear and jump ship. I honestly think anyone who tries a Move will be hooked, they're that good.
Why do you prefer a separate pack and head? Just curious on this side, as I'm a huge fan of monoblocs as I tend to be monkeying around my sets so much that the less cables, the better. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose, but I always love hearing from other people's personal takes; you never know what you might pick up!
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Why do you prefer a separate pack and head?
Lots of reasons but I like the buttons on the ground rather that 3m in the air. Putting a head and 6ft softbox up the the air is much less of a worry with smaller and lighter heads hanging off the stand. The main reason however is I much prefer the size of the heads and I especially found the B1 plus modifier to be too big. I shoot a lot of interiors and the B1 was difficult to hide. The AcuteB heads and now the MobiLED heads are tiny in comparison and can be hidden almost anywhere.
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Lots of reasons but I like the buttons on the ground rather that 3m in the air. Putting a head and 6ft softbox up the the air is much less of a worry with smaller and lighter heads hanging off the stand. The main reason however is I much prefer the size of the heads and I especially found the B1 plus modifier to be too big. I shoot a lot of interiors and the B1 was difficult to hide. The AcuteB heads and now the MobiLED heads are tiny in comparison and can be hidden almost anywhere.
Ahhh, right on. I got so used to using the PocketWizard ControlTL system (and now the Profoto Air system) that button control never really bothered me much. I should have realized about hiding them though; goes to show what shooting so much in the studio does, you just hide stuff with lens control!
Thanks for the feedback!
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Chris,
Although we have strayed off topic, since there seems to be interest, I'll add a few cents...
And since these packs sync up the speeds questioned, it is not totally off topic....lol
I use a mixture of Profoto packs and heads (B4's, D4, 8A, D1's). Whenever I have a D1 on a stand, I am always aware that if the wind takes it down, I am risking damage to everything (head, electronics, flashcube, modeling light, case), except the power cable (yuck, yuck). With the separate packs and heads, regardless of brand, the expensive part is safe down low and the less expensive part is up high at risk. A Pro B Plus head on a stand fell over a month ago due to the wind and I couldn't catch it in time. The flash tube alone was over $400. That was a lesson. Ugh.
But there is another benefit that I like. With the separate pack and head, I have attached these Home Depot heavy duty velcro straps with integral swivel carabiners to all of the pack handles. I connect those to the light stands at their bases, under tension. That way, you have built-in, always ready, ballast for your stands. Unfortunately that pack ballast, as heavy as it was, was no match for the large soft box and the wind on that fateful day a month ago. Cha-ching!
Ken
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Ahhh, right on. I got so used to using the PocketWizard ControlTL system (and now the Profoto Air system) that button control never really bothered me much.
It's not just the button pressing as the RFS 2.1 triggers do everything the Air Remote does but sometimes it's just nice to know what power you're at when it's buried in a modifier and IMO adjusting the power of multiple heads (in a studio) is still much quicker manually (especially out of the same pack) that jumping about lamp addresses on the remotes.
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But there is another benefit that I like. With the separate pack and head, I have attached these Home Depot heavy duty velcro straps with integral swivel carabiners to all of the pack handles. I connect those to the light stands at their bases, under tension. That way, you have built-in, always ready, ballast for your stands. Unfortunately that pack ballast, as heavy as it was, was no match for the large soft box and the wind on that fateful day a month ago. Cha-ching!
Ken
I would love to see this set up. Sounds like a great idea
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Also as we are sort of on the topic. Has any one tried to use the Profioto B1 Airs at full power and at higher sync speeds of 1/800 or above. From what I have been reading it doesnt look possible even with the short flash duration but would love to hear if any one has real world experience with it. Trying to air travel with 2 ranger packs, 4 batteries, and 4 heads is heavy. I was thinking of jumping ship and getting 4 b1's instead.
thanks
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Chris,
Although we have strayed off topic, since there seems to be interest, I'll add a few cents...
And since these packs sync up the speeds questioned, it is not totally off topic....lol
I use a mixture of Profoto packs and heads (B4's, D4, 8A, D1's). Whenever I have a D1 on a stand, I am always aware that if the wind takes it down, I am risking damage to everything (head, electronics, flashcube, modeling light, case), except the power cable (yuck, yuck). With the separate packs and heads, regardless of brand, the expensive part is safe down low and the less expensive part is up high at risk. A Pro B Plus head on a stand fell over a month ago due to the wind and I couldn't catch it in time. The flash tube alone was over $400. That was a lesson. Ugh.
But there is another benefit that I like. With the separate pack and head, I have attached these Home Depot heavy duty velcro straps with integral swivel carabiners to all of the pack handles. I connect those to the light stands at their bases, under tension. That way, you have built-in, always ready, ballast for your stands. Unfortunately that pack ballast, as heavy as it was, was no match for the large soft box and the wind on that fateful day a month ago. Cha-ching!
Ken
As a counter-note, (only) on the topic of disaster budgets, the replacement flashtubes for D1/B1 are $156 vs $400 for the Pro B Heads.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Hey Steve
Have you guys done any testing with the Profoto B1 airs at the shop yet? Full power or even at 7-8 to see how fast it will sync with a 645DF+. interested to find out. In the Phase One videos where the photographer is shooting with the B1's and an IQ250 in Australia. Im wondering at what power he we at and what sync speed. There's no mention of it during the video.
If you can shed any light on this it would be greatly appreciated.
thanks
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Has any one tried to use the Profioto B1 Airs at full power and at higher sync speeds of 1/800 or above. From what I have been reading it doesnt look possible even with the short flash duration but would love to hear if any one has real world experience with it.
I've not seen that mentioned before. Do you mean physically won't sync or sync but with major loss of output at full power and high camera sync speed?
I never tested this when I had my B1's but looking at the specs the B1 in FREEZE mode should sync above 1/800s from about power setting 8.5 (190Ws t.01) and below. By a power setting of 8.0 (125Ws t.01) you'll probably safely sync at 1/1600s without experiencing light loss. In normal flash mode (colour stable) you'd probably have to drop the power down to 6.0 (30Ws t.01) to get good flash durations for high speed sync.
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If I get a chance, I'm going to test this later today, but my guess is that at lower power (faster flash duration) you'll see less dramatic light falloff than at full power, as the entire output of the flash will emitted in a shorter time at lower power than at full.
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would love to hear your findings.
thanks