Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: chrismuc on June 21, 2014, 05:10:04 am
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Some thoughts on Sony entering the MF sensor market.
If I would be Sony, I would try to sell as many sensors as possible, especially as there is so little competition.
Ok, step one was to offer their CMOS 44x33mm 50MP sensor to Pentax, Hasselblad and Phase for their cameras and backs. Pentax is very reasonably priced but not so popular. Hasselblad is already rather expensive and also a low volume system. Phase is popular and very versatile but prohibitively expensive which limits the sales quantity.
IMO Sony easily could develop and produce a MF back with their 44x33mm CMOS with different mount options (Phamiya, Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Contax, Rollei ...) as a direct competitor to Phase and offer it for let's say EUR 6.000.
And in a second step they could produce a real 645 format version with 54x40.5mm (or even 56x41.5mm:-) sensor size and +/- 80 MP for maybe EUR 10.000.
That would dramatically shake the MF market and promote sales of all 645 format mirror reflex, mirrorless and tech cams.
Am I dreaming or could that be Sony's MF roadmap?
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Well, are the mounts free? No patents?
Second - Sony has NO professional service in their photo department (they have with their professional video systems). That might be true with Pentax too - but Hasselblad, Phase and Leaf have their strength exactly there (besides the backs, cameras and so on). Building up such service is extremely expensive - and Sony is short of money (not the sensor department, but whole company). But without such service there is no entrance to professional market. This would leave such backs for amateurs - not bad at all. But for most amateurs even prices as given by you are "a bit" high... It still would be a small market.
So I do not see this option now - but Sony is always good for surprises :-)
Andreas - like the idea of a 80MP-Sony back at my Hy6...
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I would be surprised if Sony took that step, creation of a digital back. More likely they will create their own system, either a range finder like the old Mamiya 7 or a solution with lenses.
If Sony created a digital back, say for Phase One, to work on the DF or DF+, I can already see a problem with the support between the back and camera (there are already enough issues between Phase One and Mamyia on the DF+/IQ Backs), see past posts on firmware upgrades on the DF+.
If Sony just made the back, the support issues would become possibly even more confusing and problematic as you would have to work with Phase One and Sony, separately to trouble shoot an issue possibly.
Where Sony would have a real key marketing advantage, would be to take their mirrorless technology and come out with a camera with the current MF sensor.
We may see some ideas of where they are going in September at Photokina.
Paul
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I would be surprised if Sony took that step, creation of a digital back. More likely they will create their own system, either a range finder like the old Mamiya 7 or a solution with lenses.
If Sony created a digital back, say for Phase One, to work on the DF or DF+, I can already see a problem with the support between the back and camera (there are already enough issues between Phase One and Mamyia on the DF+/IQ Backs), see past posts on firmware upgrades on the DF+.
If Sony just made the back, the support issues would become possibly even more confusing and problematic as you would have to work with Phase One and Sony, separately to trouble shoot an issue possibly.
Where Sony would have a real key marketing advantage, would be to take their mirrorless technology and come out with a camera with the current MF sensor.
We may see some ideas of where they are going in September at Photokina.
Paul
Totally agree with you. Entering MF now will be entering a mess.
They may do it, but it makes no sense.
In good theory the future is mirror-less. Not because is lighter (the otus and the Sigma 50mm tell an eloquent story) but because they have less moving parts, are more versatile, allows for more advanced autofocus systems, and with bad lenses that do not exploit the sensor they are lighter (marketing ploy).
So if Sony want to introduce a camera with the MF sensor it will be better to create some kind of A series like camera. The machine could have excellent autofocusing Zeiss lenses, extra big digital viewfinder, modern autofocus (hybrid with in sensor autofocusing) and a good price.
I can see a machine like that creating a new marked and synergies for the rest of the Sony camera line.
Best regards,
J. Duncan
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I wouldn't be surprised if they unleashed soon a camera a la RX1 with a fixed 35mm f2.8 equivalent Zeiss lens and the 50mp sensor.
This would differentiate them clearly and would be a logical continuation of their strategy, which consists in releasing the smallest possible camera with each sensor size.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I happen to think that Bernard has the most accurate perspective. Making an MF back or MF camera system just isn't something that Sony would have any interest in. Smart companies play on their strength, not their weaknesses. MF is a declining segment, not a growing one.
What are Sony's strengths? Sensors? Check. High res EVFs? Check. Availability of Zeiss designed and branded lenses? Check. Ability to productize miniaturization? Check. Appeal to the high end amateur market? Check.
Therefore it doesn't take having a Sony product planner as a drinking buddy to figure out that a likely product for Photokina introduction in September would be a fixed lens, pocketable MF camera.
Michael
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I agree with Michael and Bernard regarding the low chance sony making a competitor to Phase/Hassy, and the reasonable chance they would make some form of all-in-one pocket camera.
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I agree with Michael and Bernard regarding the low chance sony making a competitor to Phase/Hassy, and the reasonable chance they would make some form of all-in-one pocket camera.
Sony may not make, but I agree with Bernard that their semiconductor division will encourage the appearance of boutique cameras with Sony sensors.
Edmund
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Therefore it doesn't take having a Sony product planner as a drinking buddy to figure out that a likely product for Photokina introduction in September would be a fixed lens, pocketable MF camera.
Today the pro cameras of choice seem to be a nikon or Canon . . . and an Iphone.
Anything else is just rented.
I'm not one to rent stuff . . . actually hate renting stuff for a number of reasons, but the generation hot on my heels is all carrying a d800 or 5d3, a battery powered profoto and a macbook for their total kit.
If by chance a big job comes in they just call one of the dozen or so tech companies and rent it all then let someone else carry the overhead and do the heavy lifting of processing and retouching.
So for sony to make anything in the pro ranks like a blad or a phase wouldn't even show up on their balance sheet.
Now if they make a lower cost 5d2/d800 killer then they might sell, though most people already have an investment in canon or nikon glass.
That's why I think the A series will be a big hit. Two bodies, one for some b roll video and one for high rez stills you can use you legacy glass on for the price of a used p30 is hard to ignore.
IMO
BC
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One thing that I always come back to in a discussion about Sony is their lack of professional customer support. Canon, Nikon, Phase One, Leaf, Hasselblad, Leica all have people you can reach out and get assistance and/or specific professional support programs. Also dealer networks that are in the business of providing professional support. That for me is a big consideration if I were to consider a Sony product for being primary gear for my work.
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One thing that I always come back to in a discussion about Sony is their lack of professional customer support. Canon, Nikon, Phase One, Leaf, Hasselblad, Leica all have people you can reach out and get assistance and/or specific professional support programs. Also dealer networks that are in the business of providing professional support. That for me is a big consideration if I were to consider a Sony product for being primary gear for my work.
When I first noticed a Sony presence was at Photo East I think 7 years ago. They had aps c cameras, but the start of an interesting series of Zeiss lenses.
I had the feeling that this was just the beginning and given their size, expertise and range, Sony could become the #2 camera of choice for professionals and serious enthusiasts, maybe even #1.
Then they took years before they got to full frame and today don't have a full frame camera that will track focus for sports, which is interesting because they are sponsoring the world cup and every photographer is wearing an orange sony vest, but shooting mostly with a Canon and then Nikon.
To me that's just very strange.
So, it makes me assume that Sony is a consumer electronics company . . . like Apple only with more product. They open up stores in most of the major metro markets and then boom, close them.
I think they are innovative, obviously could make virtually anything and make it very well, but for some reason they get close then just kind of stop, like a kid getting uninterested with a toy.
Or maybe they don't see immediate results so that drives their decision.
It's interesting, given they're sensors seem to be in every camera made, except Canon.
They're a company who makes products you want to like, usually very well constructed and with style, but with still cameras there is always that one glaring omission.
As I mentioned a series of cameras like the A series is perfect for todays professional work. One camera for stills, another for motion, same lens set, accepts other makers lenses, but for video the 7s has no in camera stabilization, is 8 bit, no touch screen, somewhat hit and miss focusing and compared to other Sony cameras, not the most robust feel.
It's so strange and so close to being not just good, but magnificent.
IMO
BC
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When I first noticed a Sony presence was at Photo East I think 7 years ago. They had aps c cameras, but the start of an interesting series of Zeiss lenses.
I had the feeling that this was just the beginning and given their size, expertise and range, Sony could become the #2 camera of choice for professionals and serious enthusiasts, maybe even #1.
Then they took years before they got to full frame and today don't have a full frame camera that will track focus for sports, which is interesting because they are sponsoring the world cup and every photographer is wearing an orange sony vest, but shooting mostly with a Canon and then Nikon.
To me that's just very strange.
So, it makes me assume that Sony is a consumer electronics company . . . like Apple only with more product. They open up stores in most of the major metro markets and then boom, close them.
I think they are innovative, obviously could make virtually anything and make it very well, but for some reason they get close then just kind of stop, like a kid getting uninterested with a toy.
Or maybe they don't see immediate results so that drives their decision.
It's interesting, given they're sensors seem to be in every camera made, except Canon.
They're a company who makes products you want to like, usually very well constructed and with style, but with still cameras there is always that one glaring omission.
As I mentioned a series of cameras like the A series is perfect for todays professional work. One camera for stills, another for motion, same lens set, accepts other makers lenses, but for video the 7s has no in camera stabilization, is 8 bit, no touch screen, somewhat hit and miss focusing and compared to other Sony cameras, not the most robust feel.
It's so strange and so close to being not just good, but magnificent.
IMO
BC
Russell hit the nail on the head. I have noticed this same trend with Sony. A friend and I thought the same thing 7 years ago and we've witnessed Sony's growth to a strong consumer presence with their DSLR's, but that last 10-15% of effort to make them a true pro player hasn't happened. The interesting thing about the 7 year old prediction also had to do with the supply of their sensors to Nikon. In consideration of this, it would seem that Sony is in a potentially devastating position to Nikon. Of course there are legal agreements in place protecting/preserving Nikon's interests in receipt of the sensors for their camera line, but I have found it odd that Sony exists on the same consumer playing field as Nikon (pro level excepted) and they use the same sensors. If Sony decided it didn't want to honor its commitment to supply sensors or renegotiations at the end of the contractual term didn't pan out as expected, Nikon would be In a world of hurt and Sony would quickly become #2 with a big legal case as well. But I digress.
As for medium format chips from Sony, I agree with Michael and Doug as it makes the most reasonable and rational business sense. It is great to hope as consumers of these products that they would infuse some competition into the market and thus lower competitor's prices across the board, but this is a very small (arguable minuscule) market segment. However, the mere fact that we are here discussing this, is indicative of the fact that there is a desire. Trends start suddenly or sometimes involve a slow burn. The most recent notable and prolific trend in the photography market was the introduction of the Canon 5D Mark 2, with its video capabilities. Thanks in part to the dissemination of Vincent Laforet's "Reverie" video, the entire DSLR video market segment was spawned almost overnight. So, why is this profound? Well, let's assume that most photographers (advanced amateurs and pros alike) strive to produce the best end product (photos/video) possible and aside from the improvement in their own abilities, they look to better gear for the edge. They aspire to be better. I know I do. We saw how the market moved (more slowly as compared to the overnight DSLR video trend) from APS-C sensors and the like to more common full frame. (I have personally only used full frame from 1999). This was a slow trend. Who is to say that Pentax's new Z at it's very reasonable cost of entry doesn't initiate a new trend. Full frame pros finally able to get an affordable upgrade to provide an "edge". Could that be the event that lowers prices across the MFD board? Can/will Sony respond with an interchangeable lens system to compete since they have already spent the big cost in that production (sensor). It is likely not the case, since the image circle to cover the larger sensors would require a new line of lenses and that is a large production cost as well. In addition, since Sony now has agreements with PO and Hassy, I would bet the farm that both of those agreements have "non-compete" clauses. So, again, not likely.
Although the DSLR market has matured for the most part, it seems to be interesting times for the MFD market, with the low cost of the new Pentax and Sony's heart (sensor) being implanted in the Phase and Hassy backs as well. Interesting times.
I will be very interested to see what happens at Photokina. I am not a gear hound, but will typically invest in the best quality I can afford and justify from a business-use perspective. I always aspire to be better and maybe the proliferation of these larger sensors is the next trend and that will be good for everyone...
Ken
www.transposure.com
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Ken,
This far off topic, but:
- Sony semi conductor would probably not have invested in FF Exmor technology if they hadn't had nikon to sell a large number of bodies equipped with these sensors,
- Sony semi-conductor is a different company than Sony imaging, with its own objectives in terms of profitability. It is probably more profitable for them to sell sensors to Nikon. Structuring a group in different legal entities has value but also possible downsides, ;)
- Most of the recent Nikon APS-C bodies use Toshiba sensors with performance very close to that of Sony,
- At least the D4s comes with a non Sony FF sensor.
So overall, it seems that Nikon is very unlikely to be in any kind of serious trouble from a sensor standpoint.
Besides Canon has been far behind the curve for years sensorwise with little impact on their business, so sensors don't seem that important anymore for the majority of the market. We see things differently, but LL crowd represents probably around 0.001% of the market. ;)
Overall, the reality is that most SLR users are casual photographers will never change brand because of their lenses and the cost of migration relative to their disposable income.
Cheers,
Bernard
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That's what I was thinking: If Sony semi-conductor devision develops a high res 24x36 CMOS sensor, they must have sufficient quantities in mind, therefore selling it to Nikon and using it by Sony camera devision makes perfectly sense.
But developing a MF size version of such sensor and only selling it to Pentax, Hasselblad and Phase does IMO not generate enough business to legitimate their investment into such development.
Now what are the options to enhance sales numbers? Like others mentioned, that could be a Sony MF mirrorless camera or similar by e.g. Fuji. I agree that Sony has no history in professional photography and has no professional worldwide service but just looking at the market potential, I guess they could sell five, ten or twenty times more MF sensors with own backs (at the sub 10k price tag) than OEMing to Pentax, Hasselblad and Phase together. And for my feeling, it would be a much smaller risk for Sony to release MF backs only than to invent a completely new mirrorless MF camera or camera system (new mount, lenses ...).
But I agree, that MF back story might not happen ...
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I happen to think that Bernard has the most accurate perspective. Making an MF back or MF camera system just isn't something that Sony would have any interest in. Smart companies play on their strength, not their weaknesses. MF is a declining segment, not a growing one.
What are Sony's strengths? Sensors? Check. High res EVFs? Check. Availability of Zeiss designed and branded lenses? Check. Ability to productize miniaturization? Check. Appeal to the high end amateur market? Check.
Therefore it doesn't take having a Sony product planner as a drinking buddy to figure out that a likely product for Photokina introduction in September would be a fixed lens, pocketable MF camera.
Michael
As stated before I agree with this perspective, with a tiny difference I will expect interchangeable lenses. A fixed lens will limit the utility of the camera, in particular for vogue and similar.
Could you elaborate a little more why you believe a fixed lens is the correct (or maybe just the most probable) route for Sony?
Best regards,
J. Duncan
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Although offtopic, I have a remark: If (when) Sony decide to stop making sensors for still cameras, there go Nikon.
And Sony has after a few years abandoned just about any market they've been in except pro video.
Edmund
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Although offtopic, I have a remark: If (when) Sony decide to stop making sensors for still cameras, there go Nikon.
And Sony has after a few years abandoned just about any market they've been in except pro video.
And:
- TVs
- gaming hardware and software,
- audio equipment (mobile or not),
- ...
They have been losing billions of US$ on some of those and have not given up yet. Why would they want to stop producing money generating imaging sensors?
Cheers,
Bernard
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I think any discussion of a possible Sony MF back is so much fairy dust. It just isn't going to happen. I could go on about interface issue, interoperability, and such, but really.... it just is neither practical nor good business sense.
Designing a fixed lens camera is a simpler task, put on a custom medium wide and it can be quite pocketable. Put on an interchangeable mount and now the lens sizes are larger, and more to the point you need to create a whole lens echosphere.
Michael
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I think any discussion of a possible Sony MF back is so much fairy dust. It just isn't going to happen. I could go on about interface issue, interoperability, and such, but really.... it just is neither practical nor good business sense.
Designing a fixed lens camera is a simpler task, put on a custom medium wide and it can be quite pocketable. Put on an interchangeable mount and now the lens sizes are larger, and more to the point you need to create a whole lens echosphere.
Michael
Yes, interchangeable lensboard view cameras need larger bellows :)
It's a live-view iPad world now ...
I just wish someone would come along and prove us all wrong by thinking outside of the box.
Sony seems as likely as anybody to do this, as they have both the ability and no existing product line to protect.
Edmund
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Although offtopic, I have a remark: If (when) Sony decide to stop making sensors for still cameras, there go Nikon.
And Sony has after a few years abandoned just about any market they've been in except pro video.
Edmund
I don't think Nikon wouldn't blink an eye if Sony stopped making sensors. They would just step up their own production or find a similar sensor like the one in the D4s.
Paul
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…the biggest companies of course are Canon and Nikon, they have the legacy support, so in order to attract customers we have to give them a good reason to come to Sony. So we’re trying to make cameras which are desirable in addition to maybe a Canon or Nikon system. And in order for us to do that we have to create unique cameras that Canon and Nikon don’t offer.
…
We’re creating a market, which is vital in this industry, otherwise the market will be squeezed. If a customer doesn’t see anything new, they won’t be motivated to buy additional cameras. For Sony to improve our brand image within the camera industry we need to use technology. We need to change the world.
PPE 2013: Sony Interview - 'every six months I want to do something new (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/9689111831/ppe-2013-sony-interview-every-six-months-i-want-to-do-something-new-)'
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IMO Sony easily could develop and produce a MF back with their 44x33mm CMOS with different mount options (Phamiya, Hasselblad H, Hasselblad V, Contax, Rollei ...) as a direct competitor to Phase and offer it for let's say EUR 6.000.
And in a second step they could produce a real 645 format version with 54x40.5mm (or even 56x41.5mm:-) sensor size and +/- 80 MP for maybe EUR 10.000.
That would dramatically shake the MF market and promote sales of all 645 format mirror reflex, mirrorless and tech cams.
Am I dreaming or could that be Sony's MF roadmap?
Hi there,
well you forgot something perhaps, and I emphasized it in your quotation above. What the Heck should be the goal? Taking a piece of the MF market? For what? The market is as narrow as can be especially compared to the one Sony started to really shake up with the entrance of the Alpha 900 a few years ago and continued to do so until today.
If they sell around 5,000 units in the MFDB markets, worldwide, that would be a lot. I doubt it!
Hence, this makes no sense to me at all.
What would make sense is to buy PhaseOne though. Pick the cherries, optics and collabs with SK, ditch the camera and software, then leave the market for Hassy and Pentax to die with. ;D
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I think Sony has already broken the barrier of what is "sane" as a mass-market product company. By making a 44x33mm sensor, and by making expensive fixed-lens full-frame 135 compacts like the RX1.
So I would certainly not be surprised if Sony would make something more in the MF space. Being there could be more about prestige than making large profits.
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What would make sense is to buy PhaseOne though. Pick the cherries, optics and collabs with SK, ditch the camera and software, then leave the market for Hassy and Pentax to die with. ;D
I think you made my day. :)
Edmund
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At the risk of chiming in where the non technologically oriented (like myself) should (like the angels) fear to tread, I will risk referring to an issue which seems to me to keep highlighting itself. While the narrowness of the medium format digital market is frequently referred to as being an ironclad reason why manufacturers like Sony will not consider producing a lower priced digital back, is it not possible that there is a self-fulfilling prophecy coming into play herein. It would seem that the main reason why this market remains so narrow is very likely to be because of it's extremely high entry expense. I suspect that there are quite a number of others (besides myself) who are aware of the superiority of a tech camera system over 24/36 with high end T/S lenses, for doing architectural or landscape, (a fast growing amateur segment). I could more easily justify (rationalize?) spending for an Arca RM3DI and great Digeron lenses which will fill the bill from now on, but not for a very expensive back (however good) which will relatively soon become outdated and plummet in value. If the hope of we deluded optimists should ever be fulfilled, and an effective but affordable back were to come forward, I would be quick to grab up an RM3DI (and the lenses) before Arca-Swiss became vastly further behind in production because of Sony's foolishly adventuresome antics.
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What would make sense is to buy PhaseOne though. Pick the cherries, optics and collabs with SK, ditch the camera and software, then leave the market for Hassy and Pentax to die with. ;D
1st, Silverfleet would have to want to sell them, so far there has not been much stated as to directions that Silverfleet wants to take Phase One.
2nd, Sure hope they won't get rid of the software (if you are implying Capture 1) as it's one of the best raw conversion software tools out there, and 1 no for tethering, not just Phase One backs.
Paul
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Hi,
Pentax would not enter MFD if they didn't expect making money.
Regarding Phase one, I would suggest that the value is the whole package as a whole. The lenses are worthless without a body. The backs can go on a technical cam. C1 is an asset of it's own.
Just to say, I met a guy who happens to know some of the engineers at Phase One in Copenhagen, and he says it is a significant operation, to that comes assets of Leaf and Mamiya.
Best regards
Erik
1st, Silverfleet would have to want to sell them, so far there has not been much stated as to directions that Silverfleet wants to take Phase One.
2nd, Sure hope they won't get rid of the software (if you are implying Capture 1) as it's one of the best raw conversion software tools out there, and 1 no for tethering, not just Phase One backs.
Paul
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I met a guy from Rochester who knew some people who worked at Kodak, and he told me that was a significant operation.
Memento Mori (remember thou art mortal). (wikipedia image).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori#mediaviewer/File:Danse_macabre_by_Michael_Wolgemut.png
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Danse_macabre_by_Michael_Wolgemut.png)
Edmund
Hi,
Pentax would not enter MFD if they didn't expect making money.
Regarding Phase one, I would suggest that the value is the whole package as a whole. The lenses are worthless without a body. The backs can go on a technical cam. C1 is an asset of it's own.
Just to say, I met a guy who happens to know some of the engineers at Phase One in Copenhagen, and he says it is a significant operation, to that comes assets of Leaf and Mamiya.
Best regards
Erik
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We need to think about this logically. What would happen if Sony made a stand alone medium format back that would work on other platforms and with tech cameras?
This forum would light the skies up with comments like "how dare those scumbags in Japan create a cheap back with no cheap camera system!" "How dare they force our hand to buy the greatly inferior bodies and lenses from Phase and Hassy and Rollie and Arca Swiss and Alpa!" "This is the end of it, no one should even think about buying this thing Sony created!" "Damn them all!"
Sounds like them not making a back would be the better business system.
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We need to think about this logically. What would happen if Sony made a stand alone medium format back that would work on other platforms and with tech cameras?
Although one could expect almost anything from Sony by know, there's one thing that's just too improbable, and that is making a back without also making a camera system. If Sony would make a MF system it will likely be a mirrorless system, much like an enlarged A7r. It could be used as a digital back just as the A7r is now on view cameras, with certain limitations on focal lengths and movements.
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:-)
I met a guy from Rochester who knew some people who worked at Kodak, and he told me that was a significant operation.
Memento Mori (remember thou art mortal). (wikipedia image).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori#mediaviewer/File:Danse_macabre_by_Michael_Wolgemut.png
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Danse_macabre_by_Michael_Wolgemut.png)
Edmund
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Does anyone know what is the exact model of the Exmor R CMOS sensor used in the new MF Pentax 645Z?
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Does anyone know what is the exact model of the Exmor R CMOS sensor used in the new MF Pentax 645Z?
What makes you think there is more than one Sony MF sensor?
It was already surprising to see them invest in such a niche, are you implying they may have developped several versions? ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Good point, but I doubt it.
IMO there is one single MF SONY CMOS chip and that's all. The higher ISO by PENTAX is additionally boosted, in comparison to the Hassy and PS, by its image processor and board design. You know: better colling location, better logic and many others I guess.
I believe that the strength of Hassy and PS is in their broader spectrum of better glass. I am not sure. I guess others have to say about that.
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Good point, but I doubt it.
IMO there is one single MF SONY CMOS chip and that's all.
That's my view as well.
Cheers,
Bernard
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To me, Sony will repeat the FF strategy with the 44X33 sensors. First a fixed lens body and a year later an ILCE. Fixed lens is a safe comfortable strategy and ILCE gives them the empowerment to do more things, learn and later cope a significant portion of the market. Besides the A7 line has proved that it can be also a digital back. A MF sensor ILCE will sure sprout third party companys much more than the A7. Or....
Sony will come with a fixed WATE-like super duper Zeiss lens and be done with it. End of story.
Eduardo
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Does anyone think they will develop a larger CMOS sensor, equal to the larger PO offerings (54mm x 40mm)?
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Does anyone think they will develop a larger CMOS sensor, equal to the larger PO offerings (54mm x 40mm)?
I believe it's a certainty.
Phase and Hassy will pay for the large chips, just to be able to maintain differentiation with Pentax.
Edmund
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Phase and Hassy will pay for the large chips, just to be able to maintain differentiation with Pentax.
Edmund, what keeps Pentax from using such a chip? Their body started out as a 645 film camera, n'est pas?
Jim
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Edmund, what keeps Pentax from using such a chip? Their body started out as a 645 film camera, n'est pas?
Jim
Their non-modular design slows down their product release schedule, and complicates inventory control, je crois.
Edmund
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Their non-modular design slows down their product release schedule, and complicates inventory control, je crois.
Touché!
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I met a guy from Rochester who knew some people who worked at Kodak, and he told me that was a significant operation.
Memento Mori (remember thou art mortal). (wikipedia image).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori#mediaviewer/File:Danse_macabre_by_Michael_Wolgemut.png
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Danse_macabre_by_Michael_Wolgemut.png)
Edmund
Pentax is not Kodak. I worked in Rochester for a few years; Kodak suffered from the arrogance of being the best for so many years. Any arrogance that Pentax may have had would have been eliminated by the Hoya acquisition.
Tom
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Pentax is not Kodak. I worked in Rochester for a few years; Kodak suffered from the arrogance of being the best for so many years. Any arrogance that Pentax may have had would have been eliminated by the Hoya acquisition.
Tom
Tom,
I do wonder whether a Harvard business case has been written for Kodak, and whether there was a different way out. Anyway, I was writing about a different MF camera manufacturer, not Pentax not Hassy, which does, I believe suffer a bit from "best" syndrome. I think elimination will get you there ;)
Edmund
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I do wonder whether a Harvard business case has been written for Kodak, and whether there was a different way out.
I guess that Fujifilm provides a clear proof that there was at least one way out.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi,
I don't know, there is a market for high end stuff. It may be high end audio, watches or cars. I sort of cannot relate to it I am a Toyota, Seiko kind of guy. I prefer stuff that works and does it with minimum hassle. Also I feel that there is good enough. Also, I am not really a believer in magic.
Now, I pretty much feel there are a couple of non magic advantages to medium format.
- Larger format, mostly good
- More pixels, always good
- Lenses may be better, specially in relative terms
- MFD backs can be used with technical cameras, may be a good thing, but it cannot be done with the Leica S or the Pentax 645Z
I do feel that there is an overmarketing of MFD.
Watches is a good example, there is a significant demand for high end watches. None of those are better more functional than an Iphone with a few 10$ apps or even a Casio.
Best regards
Erik
Tom,
I do wonder whether a Harvard business case has been written for Kodak, and whether there was a different way out. Anyway, I was writing about a different MF camera manufacturer, not Pentax not Hassy, which does, I believe suffer a bit from "best" syndrome. I think elimination will get you there ;)
Edmund
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Hi,
I don't know, there is a market for high end stuff. It may be high end audio, watches or cars. I sort of cannot relate to it I am a Toyota, Seiko kind of guy. I prefer stuff that works and does it with minimum hassle. Also I feel that there is good enough. Also, I am not really a believer in magic.
Now, I pretty much feel there are a couple of non magic advantages to medium format.
- Larger format, mostly good
- More pixels, always good
- Lenses may be better, specially in relative terms
- MFD backs can be used with technical cameras, may be a good thing, but it cannot be done with the Leica S or the Pentax 645Z
I do feel that there is an overmarketing of MFD.
Watches is a good example, there is a significant demand for high end watches. None of those are better more functional than an Iphone with a few 10$ apps or even a Casio.
Best regards
Erik
Big Single Purchase for super-rich people
Big commissions for dealer
Big weight in camera bag
Big impression on client
Big prints
Big croppability
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I am no MF pro. Which of the trio has best glass?
Phase
Hassi
Pentax
I presume each has own mount...right?
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I am no MF pro. Which of the trio has best glass?
Phase
Hassi
Pentax
Which maker has the best car?
What's the best city?
Who is the most beautiful women in the world?
What's the best pint of beer?
Who is john galt?
Can you provide us some idea of what you're priorities and desires are, and what kind of budget?
A Rodenstock 32HR can provide sharp corners on an 80mp back with rise and tilt but is nearly 10k requires a tech cam like an Arca Swiss rm3di (https://digitaltransitions.com/page/arca-swiss) body.
A Schneider lens on a df+ can sync with flash up to 1/1600th of a sec.
A Hassy 110/2 and mamiya 80/1.9 are the fastest lenses you can buy (re aperture) but can only be used with manual focus, manual stop down, and on a body with a focal plane shutter.
A hassy 100/2.2 is the fastest aperture lens you can buy with autofocus but some other lenses in the hassy/phase/Leica/Rollei lenses are sharper wide open.
Some Rollei lenses are greatly respected but can only be used with some digital backs.
Many like the look of RZ lenses especially for shooting people and it's hard to find a lens line with as much performance per dollar, but MF only and no super wides.
Some lenses cover full frame 645, or even more, while others only cover a crop sensor. If you only have a crop sensor this isn't very important.
The phase 150d/2.8 is brutally sharp wide open but is larger and heavier than the Schneider 150ls.
Some lenses are not available new anymore. Some lenses are even hard to get serviced.
Some lens lineups are easily available in rental while others are not.
Etc etc etc.
You'll find there are few bad choices in medium format. That said there usually is a stand out for any given set of priorities and budget.
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Wow. I didn't realize things are that deep. Thank you for opening my eyes.
Perhaps with a little help from you I can manage to understand things better.
Now Pentax is $8k. While the other two are in the two digit $K range. Let's say money is NO consideration to me.
But ISO is! Lens is heavy? No issue. Bring it on! I ain't scared.
Are there ANY good quality fast glasses from Pentax?
Or is there any mount from any other system to Pentax.
Or Pentax lenses aren't even close to "all the best"?
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What do you take pictures of? What focal length ranges will be important to you (here you can see focal length equivalents (https://digitaltransitions.com/page/tech-camera-visualizers))? Are you located anywhere you can try out some lenses before you make any decisions?
I can't speak to Pentax lenses as DT (my employer) does not sell them.
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Hi,
Pentax has some good quality lenses and some lenses that are less good. New designs in the digital era are often better than older ones. In addition, there are sample variations.
I have seen some images at actual pixels from the P645D that were very sharp and it seems most owners are pretty happy with it.
Keep in mind that new lenses may be quite expensive.
Lloyd Chambers, has tested many of the available lenses a couple of years ago: http://diglloyd.com/prem/prot/DAP/Pentax645D/index.html
This is a pay site, around 50$ for the DAP site alone, but it may be a worthwhile investment to read before spending on the Pentax.
Best regards
Erik
Wow. I didn't realize things are that deep. Thank you for opening my eyes.
Perhaps with a little help from you I can manage to understand things better.
Now Pentax is $8k. While the other two are in the two digit $K range. Let's say money is NO consideration to me.
But ISO is! Lens is heavy? No issue. Bring it on! I ain't scared.
Are there ANY good quality fast glasses from Pentax?
Or is there any mount from any other system to Pentax.
Or Pentax lenses aren't even close to "all the best"?
-
I think it's very interesting what's happening.
I switched from Canon to Sony for the look and dynamic range, the customer support NEEDS to be much better for pros but I'm pretty happy, however I have direct lines with Sony.
The A7r is a dropdead awesome camera and could be the best image quality delivering camera in the market today (in the FF market that is).
I still very much prefer the look of the Credo60 on a DF+ and RZ but..... I have to be honest it's a lot more expensive of course.
I hope Sony will deliver a bigger sensor like the Credo60, one of the main reasons for me to go to MF is the sensor size, especially on the RZ of course. I'm also curious to see if the Sony sensor will yield the same "look" that the "old" sensors give, but the idea of being able to shoot ISO 3200 and up without noise and with the huge dynamic range does water my mouth :D