Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Doug Peterson on June 02, 2014, 09:32:13 am
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Shipping in June.
https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/40-80mm-phaseone-lens
You can use our focal length calculator (https://digitaltransitions.com/page/tech-camera-visualizers) to check the equivalency to other formats with any given sized digital back.
This zoom does cover the full 645 sensor size. It's been a lens much-requested over the last few years.
We should have one of the first in the world. If you'd like to rent/demo/purchase contact us (https://digitaltransitions.com/page/contact-us) via your preferred method (I suggest against carrier pigeon).
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Here is the current product line of Leaf Shutter Lenses:
- 28LS
- 40-80LS
- 55LS
- 80LS
- 75-150LS
- 110LS
- 150LS
- 240LS
- de facto 300LS (150LS + 2x TC)
- de facto 480LS (240LS + 2x TC)
This is in addition to the current-and-high-performing-but-no-leaf-shutter Phase One D lenses and the legacy Mamiya AF and N lenses which are compatible with the AF/DF/DF+ including these lenses not currently covered in the LS line:
- 24 Fish
- 35D
- 45D
- 55-110 AF
- 80/1.9 N
- 120 TS
- 120 AF D
- 120 MF D
- 145/4 soft focus
- 200/2 APO
- 210/4 AF
- 300/2.8 APO
- 500/4.5 APO
- 300/5.6
Schneider and Phase One have a long term strategic alliance. Now that the 40-80 project is coming to a close, which lenses would you like to see next and why? Personally I'd like to see a prime in the wide-but-not-ultra-wide area. Maybe 35mm or 40mm or 45mm.
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I guess this is the old Mamiya 40-90 or 45-90 I can't remember the actual zoom range, that was first announced in 2009 or so? Finally comes to life, it's a great focal range for sure. It will be most interesting to see the results. I am sure the Schneider is all new, but still has to have some basis on the old Mamiya that never shipped. Any chance you can publish the "list" price? Couldn't find it anywhere on the blog or spec sheet.
Paul
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8990 USD :P
http://fstoppers.com/phase-one-introduces-40-80mm-f4-0-5-6-leaf-shutter-lens-from-schneider-kreuznach
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I guess this is the old Mamiya 40-90 or 45-90 I can't remember the actual zoom range, that was first announced in 2009 or so? Finally comes to life, it's a great focal range for sure. It will be most interesting to see the results. I am sure the Schneider is all new, but still has to have some basis on the old Mamiya that never shipped. Any chance you can publish the "list" price? Couldn't find it anywhere on the blog or spec sheet.
Maeda has the list price correct.
I haven't had the chance to speak to one of the optical designers yet. But I doubt this is the announced-but-never-released Mamiya 45-90 f/4.5 design since it's different in both focal range, aperture type, and general size.
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I guess this is the old Mamiya 40-90 or 45-90 I can't remember the actual zoom range, that was first announced in 2009 or so? Finally comes to life, it's a great focal range for sure. It will be most interesting to see the results. I am sure the Schneider is all new, but still has to have some basis on the old Mamiya that never shipped. Any chance you can publish the "list" price? Couldn't find it anywhere on the blog or spec sheet.
Paul
Looks (http://www.photomediaonline.com/on-the-market/camera-lenses/item/740-mamiya-introduces-two-sekor-d-series-lenses.html) quite similar indeed. Obviously the new lens probably required a lot of work to incorporate the shutter in there and probably other improvements. Just like there is quite a bit of difference between the non-LS and the LS version of the PhaseOne 75-150mm lens.
The Pentax 645 FA 45-85mm f4.5 looks similar as well but it also does not have a leaf shutter.
Regardless it seems to be a great lens to have.
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Ok, sorry, just not sure where the world is going, 9K, that's just a bit much. I hope sales are good. That's a bit out of my league.
Paul
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Looks (http://www.photomediaonline.com/on-the-market/camera-lenses/item/740-mamiya-introduces-two-sekor-d-series-lenses.html) quite similar indeed. Obviously the new lens probably required a lot of work to incorporate the shutter in there and probably other improvements. Just like there is quite a bit of difference between the non-LS and the LS version of the PhaseOne 75-150mm lens.
Could be. Then again from this level of similarity one could say the 55LS and 80LS are the same design :). I should hear back definitively in the next day or two. Not that it matters, but I for one am always interested in such minutia.
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The mamiya 300/4.5 APO is missing in your list... ;)
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The mamiya 300/4.5 APO is missing in your list... ;)
There are actually at least a half dozen lenses I left off. I was mostly trying to show the ranges covered in LS and non-LS form. If you include every lens made the list gets fairly over-elaborated. For instance there was an 80mm f/4 making the total of 80mm releases at least seven The mamiya 300/4.5 APO is missing in your list... ;)
There are actually at least a half dozen lenses I left off. I was mostly trying to show the ranges covered in LS and non-LS form. If you include every lens made the list gets fairly over-elaborated. For instance there was an 80mm f/4 making the total of 80mm releases at least seven (2.8LS, 2.8D, 2.8AF, 2.8N, 2.8C, 1.9N, 4N).
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Interesting lens. The FL range looks good. The tech sheet says 1/1000 flash sync so not 1/1600? (given the aperture who cares, but still) Expensive though!
...which lenses would you like to see next and why? Personally I'd like to see a prime in the wide-but-not-ultra-wide area. Maybe 35mm or 40mm or 45mm.
More than anything I think they need a 40mm LS prime. Fits perfectly between the 28 and 55.
Highest on my wish list are updated standard primes, the current lineup are good lenses, however they could be improved--mostly better correction for longitudinal chromatic aberration. Think Otus. If they could make them a little faster that would be an added bonus. And an eight bladed iris.
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Ok, sorry, just not sure where the world is going, 9K, that's just a bit much. I hope sales are good. That's a bit out of my league.
Paul
If it is really good at 40mm to 60mm rivaling a prime I may be interested, but it does sound a little too rich for my blood, especially since I don’t find myself shooting the phaseOne much anymore.
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Pricing seems to match up with the Hass 35-90. I hope someone gets a chance to do a side by side of an IQ250 on a H body and a M body with these lenses - the HCD lens is amazing.
Depending on how much Phase is going to dabble in the 44x33 crop market for new backs, there seems to be a need for a zoom that gets a bit wider than the 40mm on this new lens. But I have to admit, this was a major hole in the Schneider lineup. Is there chatter about a non-LS version?
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Pricing seems to match up with the Hass 35-90. I hope someone gets a chance to do a side by side of an IQ250 on a H body and a M body with these lenses - the HCD lens is amazing.
Depending on how much Phase is going to dabble in the 44x33 crop market for new backs, there seems to be a need for a zoom that gets a bit wider than the 40mm on this new lens. But I have to admit, this was a major hole in the Schneider lineup. Is there chatter about a non-LS version?
The 40-80 LS looks like a beast of a lens. It covers full frame 645 according to specs so should be superb on a IQ250. Looks like SK went all out with this lens.
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Nobody thinks that the sliding aperture is a "problem" on such a lens ? f5.6 for that kind of equipment is a bit of a nonsense for me.
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Quick update: optical team says its a brand new ground-up design, not a generation of the previously announced but never shipped mamiya wide angle zoom.
Again I'd be the first to say I don't care what is a new design and what is a refinement of a previous design; I inly care about measures real-world performance. But I said I would find out and I did.
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Nobody thinks that the sliding aperture is a "problem" on such a lens ? f5.6 for that kind of equipment is a bit of a nonsense for me.
Most if not all Medium Format (645) zooms are variable aperture designs of about f3.5~f5.6 even the Leica S 30-90mm is like that and its for a smaller than 645 format. Pentax does have a nice 45-85mm f4.5 zoom (645 FA) but it does not have a leaf shutter and its best used at f8~f11.
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I'm not saying other brand do better, I'm just wondering about that limitation. The fact a lens is best at some aperture doesn't mean wide opening, i.e. short depth of field, can't be used ! Aperture is not only a exposure parameter ! I'm just asking myself about the relevance of such a lense on a medium format system. Per my view point the medium format system, especially P1 system is dedicated to image quality, compacity is more a parameter for small format systems. By this I mean that I'd be surprised that such a lense can replace fixed length lenses. I understand the limitation due to the size of the Lense shutter, but my opinion is that such a zoom seems a bit exotic in a MF system.
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Had a look at the specs but couldn't see what pixel pitch the resolving power of the lens is designed for / limited to ?
If it's ~4.5 microns (which would be quite an achievement in a zoom lens), then I guess we may see a 100MP DB one day.
If it's ~5.2 microns, then I guess a maximum of 80MP is where P1 plan to stay.
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I would have thought that one of the dealer's might have stepped in by now and answered this? i.e. 'Will my digital back out-resolve the lens or will the lens out-resolve my digital back' is a pretty fundamental question for anyone planning to drop $9k on this bit of glass. For that price, the answer had better be the latter.
Given that the best-in-class Rodenstock 90mm HR/W is designed for digital backs of 5 microns and above (IQ180 = 5.2 microns), then I'm guessing this zoom lens is probably somewhere below that in terms of absolute resolving power across the frame. But by how much? There's not a lot of headroom, and if it can't resolve detail down to 5.2 microns then, well, that's a bit poor given that P1's top of the range digital backs are 5.2 microns.
Unless … this long awaited and expensive lens is intended for a future range of <=80MP full-frame CMOS digital backs? Kinda makes sense - I don't think we'll ever see another CCD back from P1, and even if an IQ180 out-resolves this lens, it's obviously still going to produce a very good image, just not the best one possible given the resolution of the IQ180 digital back. If you've invested $45k in an IQ180 and $9k in this lens, you've every right to expect the absolutely best image possible.
That said, even the IQ250 is a 5.3 micron back so again there's not much headroom for the performance of this lens to match the sensor.
Jim
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I think that the reason you got no answer is because this is not how lenses are characterised. They don't "outresolve" or "underresolve" backs, they have a given contrast level for a given line-pairs value.
FWIW, this zoom is not a first in medium format. Hasselblad, for example, has had a 35-90 zoom for a while now. It is not inferior to the primes it replaces. I would expect Schneider Kreuznach to be able to manufacture a MF zoom that is just as good.
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I would have thought that one of the dealer's might have stepped in by now and answered this? i.e. 'Will my digital back out-resolve the lens or will the lens out-resolve my digital back' is a pretty fundamental question for anyone planning to drop $9k on this bit of glass. For that price, the answer had better be the latter.
I've not yet answered because good dealers wait and do their own testing rather than rely on charts, numbers, or manufacturer claims. Our demo unit has not arrived yet, and so I have not been able to shoot with it and therefore I cannot report based on my own findings.
I don't really care or value much of what a lens designer says their target line-pairs-per-[whatever] or micron density was. I care about what I see when I take some challenging images.
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@jerome_m
Ok, how many lp/mm can this lens resolve?
Rodenstock quote the pixel size their lenses are good to because this makes a lot more sense in the digital age than lp/mm.
@Doug
No problem - makes perfect sense - but at the same time P1 must know the answer to the question, so why not mention it in the press release / specs they publish? They should take a leaf out of R/S's book.
Maybe you could ask them and post the reply here?
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Ok, how many lp/mm can this lens resolve?
At what contrast level? That question only makes sense if you give a contrast level. (And: no, I do not know, as technical data has not been published).
Rodenstock quote the pixel size their lenses are good to because this makes a lot more sense in the digital age than lp/mm.
If they really do that, they lose a lot of credibility in my books. I agree that this would be a very convenient figure for photographers. The problem is that lenses do not work that way.
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Quoting the pixel size down to which your lens performs is a useful short hand (as opposed to contrast vs spatial frequency) way for telling the guy in the street, 'you know what, the detail that this lens can resolve is a worthy match for your digital back.' I'd rather be out shooting pictures than pouring over MTF charts - I just need to know that for $9k this lens is supposed to sing, not just hum out of tune.
To quote Schneider-Kreuznach: "The pixel size and pitch of a CCD array would clearly determine the necessary performance of a lens for use with this array".
Well, they know the pixel size and pitch of P1's flagship product - the IQ180/280 - let's see if this has determined the necessary performance. My prediction: The lens is capable of producing great images, but doesn't exploit a 5.2 micron back to its fullest.
If we have to play the MTF game, all P1 need to do is publish some graphs, and I'll shut up.