Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: dseelig on May 16, 2014, 03:02:46 pm
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In a heated topic now closed cursing was brought up and used. Once in the form of initials and then the words. For me, I grew up a street kid in NYC cursing was a way of life. However I see no difference in using initials or the words. I also feel like if someone talks to me like I am a piece of garbage they are doing the same as cursing. This is not an attempt to justify or bring up the topic discussed but how do we see our language affecting others. David
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Language is a very is a very personal topic...but it's a complicated social phenomena. Different people will respond to different language in radically different ways.
As a "habitual swearer" (spend time with me personally and you'll hear all manner of expletives uttered except the "C" word that my wife does not allow me to use) I've learned that in a small, personal conversation, pretty much anything goes. However, in public, I've learned that there are lines one does not cross.
At one point, I did a workshop in NYC called Digital Imaging For Photographers. In the audience were New York City photogs–a lot of them my personal friends. During the workshop (since I was in front of my NYC friends) I liberally used the "F" word a lot...(some of my best friends were sitting in front and they "got it"). At the end of the day, one of the sponsors came up to me and said "ya know, I lost count of the number of times you said the "F" word before lunch. The count was 80 times...he told me something that day that has stuck with me ever since...if you have no self discipline in your language, you loose the attention of the audience. If you pick and choose when and if to use certain words, they actually garner more importance and have greater impact. If you say those word all the time, their meaning and value diminish.
After that discussion, I vowed to never say the "F" word when I was wearing a mic. Why? Because in almost all cases, the "F" word isn't needed if you can find an alternative. Saying the "F" word turns some people against you regardless of the audience (although inside of NYC it's less of a problem than the rest of the country).
Ever since, I've been very careful of the words I choose to use...and I literally quit using the "F" word in public. I found alternatives that were equally effective and weren't as socially unacceptable.
So, I became a master of using terms like "F'ing", "Friggin" and even tended to over-use "fracking" (which started as a reference to Battlestar Galactica before fracking became associated with a more derogatory anti-envoronmental terms for raping the earth to get oil & gas).
As an author, I can tell you that exactly what words you choose matter. You can choose to go full bore and type the entire actual "F" word (sorry, I'm not gonna do it) or you can choose to use alternative language. Yes, the alternatives get the same point across without the tendency to offend the listeners (or readers).
Is using a euphemism for a certain word the same as using the word? Of course not–otherwise we wouldn't have euphemisms. DOH...I mean if you don't understand the differences then your brain ain't working.
There are lines you can cross in private that you shouldn't cross in public (although with the recent brouhaha with the Clippers owner talking to his girlfriend, I'm not so sure what's private vs public).
LuLa is a public forum...when you type some words, they go out to the internet never to be removed. It's exists for ever...so, if you want to make a point, it behooves you to understand the implications of what you type.
You can type the full word or you can type the euphemism (or alternative words). Is there a different? For darn sure tooting...
Try using the full "N" word in public surrounded by black people and see if the full word and the euphemism, "N Word", results in different physical injuries.
Yeah the words you type here on LuLa make a difference...using a euphemism vs the actual words makes a world of difference. In once case (the euphemism) you are giving the reader a degree of respect that the euphemism is enough of an emphasis that you don't need to use the full typed word. Nobody should be upset with the euphemism, even if everybody knows the meaning...using the full typed word is a sign of disrespect to the reader.
So, you might wonder why me (as the "pit bull of LuLa") should be so offended by somebody actually typing out the full "F" word, I'll tell you...it shows a lack of respect for the community and the reader. Allowing that to continue brings down the value and usefulness of the community because to sends the forums down a dark, stinky hole.
If you don't have the creativity or language skills to get your meaning across without resorting to typing out words that offend, then we really don't need you around here IMHO.
Also, if you think that I'm a obnoxious arse (note I didn't type a$$), that's ok...I can live with that. I write aggressively...I don't take prisoners and I don't suffer fools graciously. But I don't do Ad Hominem attacks (as a general rule unless an Ad Hominem attack is first launched at me). I attack ideas...and yes, I'm pretty good at doing that, and yes that can piss people off (am I allowed to type piss?).
Look...some people loose control over their emotions when posting on line. I don't...I've been posting online since the very early AOL and Compuserve days...I get right up to the line, but try really hard not to cross lines.
And yes, I understand the irony that my complaining about somebody typing the "F" word lead to the closing of a thread...but that thread had died way before.
So, think before you type (I always do) and see if you can craft your language to get you point across without using offending language. I mean WTF? I know some people here are not native English speakers (and I congratulate then for the English–cause I can't read their native tongues–I'm just a dumb American).
LuLa is Mike's (and now Kev's) place...they set the rules. But it would be useful for everybody here to respect the LuLa community and do nothing to soil it.
To finish off my story about no "F" words when a mic is on (you never heard me say that on any of the LuLA videos). Epson wanted to tape an interview with me to promote one of the new printers with new inksets. The video would ONLY be used in-house and not shown publicly. The video director wanted me say "With this new Epson inkset, I'm upset because with the new inks, it means I'll need to reprint my whole friggin' portfolio (insert full "F" word here). Normally, I can get something in 2-3 takes...but since I had a mic on, I had a real hard time getting the line right. I kept fumbling over the "F" word...I was really upset but the Epson guy (the same guy that mentioned my 80+ "F" words before lunch) thought is was incredibly funny!
Come on folks...you all know better. Be careful what you type...it can't be undone (but it can be edited by the moderators if need be and I suspect it will be for the foreseeable future based on this latest locked thread).
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i agree language is personal and as someone who does take initials or euphemisms for the real thing I ask everyone am I the only one when I read POS or other terms in initials I hear in my head as I read, the words. I appreciate the time you took Schewe . I can tell you if someone uses initials or euphemisms at me I will take it as the actual words. i do appreciate this site greatly. In one of my responses I almost took a words that I would've regretted I took a moment and stopped my self, so easy on the web to react and not think. I just want people to know how someone else might feel, over something that someone else might think is no big deal.
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i agree language is personal and as someone who does take initials or euphemisms for the real thing I ask everyone am I the only one when I read POS or other terms in initials I hear in my head as I read, the words.
But...that's the baggage you are personally carrying...
If somebody uses a euphemism, it's unfair to read that as the actual, fully typed words. If you choose to ignore the euphemism and read the full words, that's on you. If one types the full words (and crosses that line), it's on them.
There is a huge difference (or should be).
None of this "writing on an internet forum" is easy...different people have different rules and pain points. Using a euphemism shows a degree of respect that typing the full words doesn't.
So, I gotta ask, if I type WTF, is that really the same to you as WHAT THE F@#K?
Really? Then that's on you...not me.
(note, I still couldn't type the full four letter word in public).
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So, I gotta ask, if I type WTF, is that really the same to you as WHAT THE F@#K?
Really? Then that's on you...not me.
Nonsense.
If you don't want your words to be read as "WHAT THE F@#K" don't type "WTF".
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For me the point is to try and not degenerate into something not constructive so what do you want to accomplish, say something is on me, or trying to understand others ,and have a informative dialogue? I suspect with most here if they examine there hearts will say to be constructive with others. The dry written word on the internet can come across so harsh.
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If you don't want your words to be read as "WHAT THE F@#K" don't type "WTF".
So, ask yourself, why did you type "WHAT THE F@#K"?
Why didn't you type it all out?
Chicken?
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Language is a very is a very personal topic...
Very nice anecdote. But your (lack of) command of the English language is not the issue here.
You conveniently miss the seminal point in the thread you're referring to – context. 'jjj' typed the full version of Andrew's BFD because, I suspect, he was tired of seeing the unrelenting and repetitive use of the initialism. That's what Andrew was saying and he spelt it out.
Typing the odd WTF or BFD can be used as emphasis – in some circumstances, not all. In some cases it can even be humorous. The repetitive use, however, crosses the line. Is it offensive ? Yup. I'd argue that the repeated usage is just as offensive as writing the full word or expression and frankly, it's both unnecessary and uncalled for. When the connotation and tenor are offensive – there is NO difference.
LuLa is Mike's (and now Kev's) place...they set the rules.
Michael put it well:
“ Gratuitous profanity is inappropriate here, just as it would be at someones dining room table. “
Are you trying to argue that repeated use of some initialisms don't constitute 'gratuitous profanity' ?
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If you don't have the creativity or language skills to get your meaning across without resorting to typing out words that offend, then we really don't need you around here IMHO.
Delete 'words' insert 'expressions'.
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The more vulgar a word, the greater it's linguistic flexibility and besides
In 1971, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that the mere public display of fuck is protected under the First and Fourteenth Amendments and cannot be made a criminal offense.
. Made me wonder though about this saying "de minimis not curat lex,"that the law doesn't concern itself with trifles. ;D
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Well-chosen use of generally taboo words can provide very effective emphasis.
Accidental use is often merely funny: http://www.legalcheek.com/2014/05/legal-pic-of-the-day-30/
Jeremy
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Why didn't you type it all out?
Because I was quoting your words!
There's nothing complicated about this -- if you don't want people to be distracted by vulgarity don't use vulgarity.
Apparently you wish to provoke by using vulgar expressions, but you don't wish to be censured for doing so. I don't think many people are fooled by the charade.
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Apparently you wish to provoke by using vulgar expressions, but you don't wish to be censored for doing so.
I think you mean "censured", although I suspect he doesn't want to be censored, either.
Jeremy
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In case you missed it in another thread (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=89949.msg733497#msg733497) (about acronyms):
;)
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Some time ago, I proposed to replace the vulgar RTFM with a polite RTMF*. See? The same letter, different place, world of difference.
*Read The Manual First
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RTM (a TLA)
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I always thought RTFM meant Read The Friendly Manual ;D
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But...that's the baggage you are personally carrying...
If somebody uses a euphemism, it's unfair to read that as the actual, fully typed words. If you choose to ignore the euphemism and read the full words, that's on you. If one types the full words (and crosses that line), it's on them.
I have a pretty thick skin when it comes to language, but long ago realized that some others do not. It's not right or wrong, it's just one way that people differ. So, in the spirit of civil conversation, I do my best to avoid using words (or euphemisms, etc.) that might offend others. Is it "on them" if they are offended when I meant no offense? Perhaps, but that's beside the point. If you (generic "you") want to have a respectful and intelligent conversation (as opposed to braying about how smart and cool you are and how dumb the other guy is), then show restraint. Use of potentially offensive language, quite frankly, comes across as immature and, given the immense richness of English, shows an unfortunate poverty of expression.
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You conveniently miss the seminal point in the thread you're referring to – context. 'jjj' typed the full version of Andrew's BFD because, I suspect, he was tired of seeing the unrelenting and repetitive use of the initialism. That's what Andrew was saying and he spelt it out.
And BFD could stand for Big Friggin Deal. jjj typed the full version, I didn't because I understand the rules. If and when Michael and company spell out that BFD or RTFM is not tolerated, I'll be happy to refrain from their use. FWIW, I doubt the thread was closed down due solely to jjj spelling out what he did.
BFD also an acronym for Bakersfield, Boston and Buffalo Fire Department. While RAW stands for nothing to do with a raw camera format despite the number of people who use it that way. RAW could easily be interrupted creatively with "dirty" words too. So what?
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And BFD could stand for ...
Indeed, as WTF could stand for "Well, That's Fantastic" ;)
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Because I was quoting your words!
There's nothing complicated about this -- if you don't want people to be distracted by vulgarity don't use vulgarity.
Apparently you wish to provoke by using vulgar expressions, but you don't wish to be censured for doing so. I don't think many people are fooled by the charade.
Correct. It is just a feeble attempt to remain politically correct, although intended as a profane expression to make an impression or provoke. The need to use such language, unless one is a habitual (ab)user, usually originates from low self-esteem, IOW comes from people with issues.
Cheers,
Bart
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So I would ask a question why take a chance on offending anyone. Michael or Kevin should not have to say what is right we should all try and not offend each other. On Facebook today I posted something on politics that a real friend did not agree with and someone I barely know said she had no heart. I took him to task as I should there is no point in taking a chance on offending people. Listen in my own language I doubt anyone curses more then I but on the internet I try to be very careful as without seeing me knowing me you have no idea how I would mean something. I am glad we are talking and not screaming at each other.
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Some time ago, I proposed to replace the vulgar RTFM ...
I always read that as "Read The Full Manual". And in the photo above, clearly WTF = Way Too Fat.
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So I would ask a question why take a chance on offending anyone.
If you go through life eliminating any chance of offending people, then you must be like the Dali Lama. He's the only person that I know of who is so enlightened that never offending anybody would seem second nature. But, he sure does piss off the Chinese government :~)
Some posters have taken a black & white position on expletives of any kind. Hum, I see more than just black & white to this argument. There are plenty of shades in between. It's up to all of us to decide for ourselves. I choose to use alternate spelling or euphemisms...and that is tolerated by the LuLa owners (I've seen Mike use some euphemisms over the years). If somebody chooses to be offended, you have a choice, deal with it or don't. But that's your choice, I've made mine.
P.S. the amount of self righteousness in this thread is really pretty impressive. Reminds me of a Tea Party rally :~)
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Speaking of euphemisms, most LuLa readers are probably too young to have ever heard the one that used to be very common, many years ago: "Unmentionables."
I find it quite amusing, as it clearly represents an attempt to provide a name for something that "must not be named." ;)
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I am talking about on this site in terms offending anyone and internet forums in general why bother. when you offend you lose them and never will you get them back. I brought this up to make people think. For me comparing anyone to the tea party is pretty insulting what is the point of that. I find it pretty funny that so many that would insult here would never do it face to face. No not making threats just pointing out reality. Just because someone sets a limit does not mean you should not go the extra mile and be as good as you can. I have also never seen Michael insult anyone here. How you use a curse word or substitute makes all the difference. By the way I was the white guy who grew up a minority person I played basketball in NYC . I could tell some stories about language used.
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I find it pretty funny that so many that would insult here would never do it face to face.
If you are talking about me, what you see here on LuLa is what you would get in person except I DO use expletives in person. In point of fact, I'm actually more polite here than in person...make of that what you wish.
But hey, there's hope...I've just started reading In My Own Words (http://www.amazon.com/Own-Words-Introduction-Teachings-Philosophy/dp/1401931847) by the Dali Lama. So, maybe that will have an impact on how I deal with people (but I wouldn't hold your breath).
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If somebody chooses to be offended, you have a choice, deal with it or don't. But that's your choice, I've made mine.
P.S. the amount of self righteousness in this thread is really pretty impressive.
Oh! The Irony! :-)
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Language is a very tough thing I meant if you curse or use words at people. No I was not talking about you Schewe. Was truly talking in general.
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LuLa is a public forum...when you type some words, they go out to the internet never to be removed. It's exists for ever...so, if you want to make a point, it behooves you to understand the implications of what you type.
So, think before you type (I always do) and see if you can craft your language to get you point across without using offending language. I mean WTF?
LuLa is Mike's (and now Kev's) place...they set the rules. But it would be useful for everybody here to respect the LuLa community and do nothing to soil it.
And on that we agree.
But you invoke, quite correctly, the gospel according to St. Mike, and Mike spelt it out:
"Gratuitous profanity is inappropriate here, just as it would be at someones dining room table."
What part don't you get ?
Gratuitous ? look it up.
Profanity ? try this:
“ Profanity is a subset of a language's lexicon that is generally considered in society to be strongly impolite or offensive. ... can take the form of words, expressions, gestures or other social behaviours that are construed or interpreted as insulting, rude, vulgar, obscene, obnoxious, foul … “
If somebody uses a euphemism, it's unfair to read that as the actual, fully typed words. If you choose to ignore the euphemism and read the full words, that's on you.
ROTFLMAO
Some posters have taken a black & white position on expletives of any kind.
I don't see that anywhere – I see shades of grey (think Epson ABW, not the book) - care to quote ?
I see more than just black & white to this argument. There are plenty of shades in between. It's up to all of us to decide for ourselves.
Not according to your own quotes above. So what is it - a free-for-all or Mike's word ?
P.S. the amount of self righteousness in this thread is really pretty impressive.
Again, don't see that anywhere but I do see humbug in abundance.
So Jeff, say what you mean and mean what you say. What's the matter with you, having a bad-hair day or are you simply deluded with your self styled pit-bull moniker ? What you continue to avoid addressing is the 'context and tenor' of the written word. Either way,
Dans l'attente, cher Monsieur, veuillez agréer l'expression de mes sentiments les plus distinguées.
M
P.S.
And whether you interpret that as a respectful salutation, as intended, or simply an extension of the proverbial middle finger is, in your own words, 'down to you … not me.' See - context matters.
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And BFD could stand for Big Friggin Deal. jjj typed the full version, I didn't because I understand the rules. If and when Michael and company spell out that BFD or RTFM is not tolerated, I'll be happy to refrain from their use. [...]
Time to Man-Up, Andrew. Michael did spell out the rules - see above.
I've got no issue with you, Andrew. Far from it. I've got no issue with your using BFD, WTF or any of the other initialisms either, in an appropriate context. What I react to is the hypocrisy of Jeff berating 'jjj' for (incorrectly, I agree) spelling out the f-word in the face of continued BFD'ing in what was a thinly disguised provocation - and then trying to justify his stance with a chronicle of how he moderated his 'social limitations'. All of which have zero bearing on 'respecting the LuLa community and do nothing to soil it'.
Mike spelt it out, and unless it's one rule for all and another for Jeff - the message is clear. And, yes, CONTEXT and TENOR do matter. Period.
Sorry guys, not going to waste any more time in asinine discussions.
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But you invoke, quite correctly, the gospel according to St. Mike, and Mike spelt it out:
"Gratuitous profanity is inappropriate here, just as it would be at someones dining room table."
What part don't you get ?
Gratuitous ? look it up.
Profanity ? try this:
“ Profanity is a subset of a language's lexicon that is generally considered in society to be strongly impolite or offensive. ... can take the form of words, expressions, gestures or other social behaviours that are construed or interpreted as insulting, rude, vulgar, obscene, obnoxious, foul … “
Ah, again it's context. I know what Gratuitous is but Gratuitous Profanity? Is WFT simply Profanity while spelling it out is Gratuitous Profanity? What about BS? I may feel BS is Gratuitous Profanity or I may feel writing it out is Gratuitous Profanity or I may feel Jeff's creative spelling is Gratuitous Profanity or none of the above. Do we limit this to 'the seven dirty' words or add others? Is WFT worse than telling someone to 'screw off' or "Piss Off" or "Bite me"? Or insert another word for screw? Is the so called "N" word worse than any of the other words for other races that are used in a highly derogatory way? It's a very slippery slope.
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... Is WFT worse than telling someone to 'screw off' or "Piss Off" or "Bite me"?...
This evening, driving out of Chicago ;)
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So Jeff, say what you mean and mean what you say. What's the matter with you, having a bad-hair day or are you simply deluded with your self styled pit-bull moniker ? What you continue to avoid addressing is the 'context and tenor' of the written word.
Oh, I do (and that's what seems to piss off some people no end). Nothing I've written in this thread (or the one that spawned it) is anything other than totally authentic.
So, can we agree that writing out the full word for an obscenity is unacceptable on LuLa? If so, (and I think we better all agree otherwise the monitors are gonna be really busy) then my calling JJJ on the carpet for crossing a line was valid and reasonable...
Now, to the rest of the verbal diarrhea regarding alt spellings, alt words and euphemisms, the jury is still out. Nothing about Mike's statement: "Gratuitous profanity is inappropriate here, just as it would be at someones dining room table." doesn't really address that. That's where the root of the debate falls. It seems like it's ok sometimes for some people and not ok for other people other times. Sorry, but we've not reached a consensus about alt spellings, alt words and euphemisms. And so far, Mike's said nothing about that specifically.
So, I realize I'm a polarizing figure here...and when I took JJJ to task for spelling out the full obscenity, I became a big target because of the appearance of hypocrisy. But that's pure BS. There are lines in the sand here...I get up to the line but am careful not to cross what I see as the line. Spelling out an obscenity is over the line...right? Beyond that, it's still fuzzy (and will remain so).
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Spelling out an obscenity is over the line...right? Beyond that, it's still fuzzy (and will remain so).
Not unless you wish it to remain so.
No-one is doubting the authenticity of your posts (content and veracity, yes) no-one (that I can see) is disputing that writing out the full word for an obscenity is unacceptable on LuLa and no-one is saying that your calling JJJ on the carpet for crossing a line wasn't valid and reasonable ...
Andrew provoked 'jjj' and 'jjj' reacted. In football (soccer) parlance, 'jjj' got a red card. It happens. If you need a paragon, think Zidane v Materazzi in the 2006 World Cup Final; one was verbal, the other physical; one was in the LuLa community, the other was in front of 2 billion tv viewers. Same principle. End of story.
So don't continue with this obfuscation and fixation on a singular instance when there is a rudimentary point in discussion. Rather than resolve any perceived ambiguity, you're doing everything possible to perpetuate it.
Nothing about Mike's statement: "Gratuitous profanity is inappropriate here, just as it would be at someones dining room table." doesn't really address that. That's where the root of the debate falls. It seems like it's ok sometimes for some people and not ok for other people other times. Sorry, but we've not reached a consensus about alt spellings, alt words and euphemisms. And so far, Mike's said nothing about that specifically.
But he doesn't need to and no, we don't need consensus, because, in your own words, “ LuLa is Mike's place... and it behoves everybody here to respect the LuLa community and do nothing to soil it. “ And yet again, it is you who misses the point – it is NOT ' ok sometimes for some people and not ok for other people other times'. Where did you see that ? You didn't. It is quite simply 'ok for all people some of the time' depending on the context and tenor(*) - 'just as it would be at someones dining room table'.
(*) And by 'tenor' you are to equally infer 'intent, import, gist ..etc'
You may not like it, and it may or may not have been inadvertent, but IMO Mike's sentence was quite brilliant in it's simplicity. In fifteen words he's set a guideline which is the yardstick for all. It'll last for ever.
Combine that with the forum rules which state unequivocally that ' you will not post any material which is abusive, vulgar, obscene, profane …' and you're good to go. The only 'grey' area that one may possibly query is the point where a colloquialism crosses into a vulgarity or vice versa (such as your twee adaptation of the word 'BS'). But perhaps we can leave that to another thread - this is a photographic forum / community not a society of vestal virgins.
I've put it to you before I'll ask again “what is the difference between the initialisms WTF and my writing 'ef-u' , other than one is an exclamation and the other a dysphemism – short answer: none, except that the INTENT of the latter is clearly abusive. Capisce ?
And if you're still struggling with the concept of 'intent' ask yourself this: what's the difference between murder and manslaughter ?
As Voltaire said “ I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” just as long you respect Mike's rules (with a smattering of artistic licence)
So Jeff, NO, I don't see any ambiguity and, NO, we don't need consensus. Your imaginary line in the sand just got a bit of territorial expansion.
One final point, kindly spare me the feigned pit-bull moniker. No one who has contributed in the selfless way you have over the years (despite all the huff and puff), who has the gravitas you have, who has been married to the same woman for over 40 years (unless she's certifiable, which I seriously doubt) comes over as a pretty A OK guy. You're fooling no-one.
[/written with a respectful nod and a wink]
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Partly, it bemuses me that some people worry so much about particular sequences of letters, rather than the message intended by them. I am far more bothered by repeated disparagement of another poster's honesty, intelligence and competence phrased in completely SFW language than I would be if someone idiomatically said:
”Hey, <bleep>ing great photos; you're a talented <four syllable bad word>.”
(Not that anyone ever has.)
But writing online in view of many people I do not know, I am for the self-restraint of the "dinner with some guests that I know very little about" rule ... unless a particular site or thread has already established that more liberal standards are acceptable to its participants.
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I think it's time to draw this to a close.
We are (mostly) adults here, and I am loath to create arbitrary standards. Sometimes, even in civilized discourse, profanity is acceptable. Language also changes. "Pissed off" used to be considered vulgar. Now it seems to be acceptable.
I have no desire to create arbitrary rules, so if we all just act like grown-ups this forum can be mostly self-policing, as it has been for some 15 years.
Let's move on.
Michael
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Gee, Manoli, the longer posts you write, the less I get what your point is ;)