Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: david distefano on March 29, 2014, 12:24:41 pm
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i am selling some gear that will net about $7,000. i am thinking of going 2 ways. one, buy a used digital back, i guess a maximum of a p30 or aptus 5 that can be attached to my hasselblad 503, or two, buy the zeiss 135mm apo for my nikon d800 and use the rest of the money to buy the otus 85mm when it is finally released. max. print size 24x30. i think the nikon gives me more flexability from ultra wide to super tele. i am leaning (60/40) towards the lens option. any thoughts.
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With this budget, you will get a better rig in 35mm DSLR.
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Hi,
I would keep the money in the bank. If you need f/1.4, go Otus, but stopped down to f/5.6 almost any lens will serve you well.
If you have a Hasselblad 503 and a few decent lenses you can have great fun with an MFDB, but for real work I would go with DSLR.
I have a 555 ELD with 40/4, 50/4, 80/2.8, 120/4 and 150/4 with a P45+, and it is only the 150/4 that is really great.
Best regards
Erik
i am selling some gear that will net about $7,000. i am thinking of going 2 ways. one, buy a used digital back, i guess a maximum of a p30 or aptus 5 that can be attached to my hasselblad 503, or two, buy the zeiss 135mm apo for my nikon d800 and use the rest of the money to buy the otus 85mm when it is finally released. max. print size 24x30. i think the nikon gives me more flexability from ultra wide to super tele. i am leaning (60/40) towards the lens option. any thoughts.
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i am selling some gear that will net about $7,000. i am thinking of going 2 ways. one, buy a used digital back, i guess a maximum of a p30 or aptus 5 that can be attached to my hasselblad 503, or two, buy the zeiss 135mm apo for my nikon d800 and use the rest of the money to buy the otus 85mm when it is finally released. max. print size 24x30. i think the nikon gives me more flexability from ultra wide to super tele. i am leaning (60/40) towards the lens option. any thoughts.
I agree with what you say about flexibility.
However, to the thread title, I would say that no one should convince you. You should convince yourself. Given your narrowed choices, that should be relatively easy for you to do with a modest investment of time and money.
There is such a range of situations we encounter with our clients who purchase, in terms of how obvious (or not) a particular product suits their needs or desires. When it is quite obvious, that is easy, it is a matter of confirmation and reinforcement. When it is not - I strongly feel that you need to know the facts about what the products do, but you yourself really need to evaluate these hands on. This is not that difficult for you to do David and based on your post, I highly urge you do so.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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I agree with what you say about flexibility.
However, to the thread title, I would say that no one should convince you. You should convince yourself. Given your narrowed choices, that should be relatively easy for you to do with a modest investment of time and money.
There is such a range of situations we encounter with our clients who purchase, in terms of how obvious (or not) a particular product suits their needs or desires. When it is quite obvious, that is easy, it is a matter of confirmation and reinforcement. When it is not - I strongly feel that you need to know the facts about what the products do, but you yourself really need to evaluate these hands on. This is not that difficult for you to do David and based on your post, I highly urge you do so.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
i think convince was a wrong term. i think possible pros and cons would have been a better term. i was looking for people who have similar equipment to give their assessments. i will make up my own mind.
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i think convince was a wrong term. i think possible pros and cons would have been a better term. i was looking for people who have similar equipment to give their assessments. i will make up my own mind.
David, I think their input will be helpful, especially toward narrowing down your choices, because you ultimately will benefit from taking those final options and putting them through the paces you normally would to see how you feel.
There are many, many perspectives from users of these products - and from providers. Best of luck with this - if we can be of any help, please don't hesitate to contact us.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Sit on the cash, take a POCP class or attend an event where you can actually use a DMF compared to 35mm. Maybe we'll see a IQ250 World Tour this summer (please!).
You didn't say if you were making money off photography, so start there. Then say what you like to shoot, and how you perceive DMF as improving it. Post where you're at, or where you'll be and see if you can hire someone in the forum to show you their kit, and how it works for them.
Best of luck on your decision.
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Sit on the cash, take a POCP class or attend an event where you can actually use a DMF compared to 35mm. Maybe we'll see a IQ250 World Tour this summer (please!).
You didn't say if you were making money off photography, so start there. Then say what you like to shoot, and how you perceive DMF as improving it. Post where you're at, or where you'll be and see if you can hire someone in the forum to show you their kit, and how it works for them.
Best of luck on your decision.
i use to own the hasselblad cfv-16 and used it both on a tech camera as well as my hasselblad 503. i have shot from 8x20, 8x10, 5x7 and 4x5 as well as with the roll film back with the 503. so i am able to compare the files from the cfv and the nikon d800. imo the d800 has the better file. landscape is most of my work and the money i receive covers my expenses. i make my money as a teacher. i live in the wastelands of art, the central valley of california. the p30+ has 25% smaller pixel size than the cfv-16, and being newer technology its image file should be finer in quality, but its sensor size precludes wide angle work. i believe that to see marked improvements in d800 images made up to 24x30 would require a mfdb of at least the p45+, not financially possible. the p25/25+ has the larger sensor and the ability for long exposures but will the files be a significant improvement over the d800. i am going to bear images in palo alto on monday to do some more research.
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In your first message, you considered a 135mm and a 85mm lens. Now you are talking about wide-angle lenses. What do you really want?
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I think you presently get the best bang for your buck with the Sony A7R.
There really is a problem with MF pricing, or rather there is a problem with the speed at which the 35mm guys have improved their product thanks to Sony's sensors, while the MF guys didn't invest.
Edmund
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For me, a 7 thousand dollar slush fund for camera equipment would be like winning a lottery. I would be really, really, cautious in my decision. But that is just me and my meager financial status. Having said that, I would set the money aside. Sony, it is rumored, may come out with their own medium format system using their new 50 MP sensor. It could be something like the Mamiya 7 based on their mirror-less system. If they do, and the prices are more competitive than other medium format systems- it may be worth waiting for a year.
Of course there is always going to be something better around the corner. So do you wait forever?
This time however the wait may be worth it. My 2 cents.
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In your first message, you considered a 135mm and a 85mm lens. Now you are talking about wide-angle lenses. What do you really want?
i already have the wide angle lenses
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I think you presently get the best bang for your buck with the Sony A7R.
If you start from scratch certainly so, but the OP already owns a D800 with a set of matching lenses.
Cheers,
Bernard
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i think convince was a wrong term. i think possible pros and cons would have been a better term. i was looking for people who have similar equipment to give their assessments. i will make up my own mind.
Steve has the answer in that nobody can tell you what's best. I personally know a good pro dslr like a d800 or a can 1d series will cover 99.99999% of all photography.
I also know that a lot of people don't like going that direction. I have a good friend that still uses his v series blad and phase p21+.
He absolutely loves both, doesn't care about dxo, or for that matter what anyone says or uses, he just stays with what he's used forever and is as happy as a clam.
In Regards to the A7R, unless you need to do this now, I'd hold off on that one, given that Sony seems to make new cameras faster than I can shoot a gig, so I would imagine the next version of that camera would address a lot of the originals issues.
P.S.
Though I don't use a d800 or a Blad, I have owned and still use most 1d___ Canons, have a boat load of contax with two backs which is not that different than a V series and would rather use the Contax, when time, light, subject permits.
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In your first message, you considered a 135mm and a 85mm lens. Now you are talking about wide-angle lenses. What do you really want?
i already have the wide angle lenses
I still don't understand. If you are only shooting landscapes with wide angles, why the 135mm and 85mm lenses? Is the choice between a 135mm that you don't need and a MF that you don't need?
And can you tell what wide-angle lenses you use on the D800? In my experience with the Hasselblad H lenses and the D800, Hasselblad simply trounces all what Nikon can offer as wide-angle lenses. If you are doing landscape work and are prepared to live with the limitations of MF (size, weight...), a second hand MF with a wide angle will allow you to print at least one size bigger.
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I'd stay away from the Sony A7R. I played with one at a real brick and mortar store (BCooter is correct-Sony is a wild card). I also checked out the Fuji and Panasonic mirrorless cameras. I opted for the Olympus OMD EM1. I only shoot stills. If I shot motion as well as stills, a Lumix would be on the very top of the list.
I have a Nikon d800; the 14-24 lens is a miracle of science. But I love the Olympus more than any camera I've owned--that includes MFD, APS-C, FF, FX, 8 X10 film, 4 X5 film, 6 X6 film, 35mm film, 35mm half-frame, and Minox.
Pixel for pixel, the 16mp Oly cameras do a great job. I love the affordability of the fast primes. I've blown up some of the files to app. 24 X 32. Sure they are a bit noisy, however I rather like the look. I also have an EPL-5 with a VF4 EVF. I am taking more photos now, for the sheer joy of it, than I ever have.
The D800 is fine for my commercial work (although the red-channel often drives me crazy). Oddly, an Oly is sometimes the better option.
As far as MFD goes, there is no way you will be able to put together a system for $7K and be happy with it over the course of a year before you'll want to throw more money into it to broaden its capabilities. MFD does weird things to otherwise rational folks. Unless your living depends on fine art reproduction, ultra high-end tabletop, or noiseless giant-size prints, I'd nix the idea. If you have a trust fund, go for it. Or if you really want something expensive and neat, go for a Leica M9 and a couple Voightlander lenses.
I owned a Hassey CF39-MS, a compliment of lenses an HD body, and a pancake camera with an amazing 72mm Digitar equipped with an electronic shutter (prior to that an Ixpress 384C + Mamiya AFD). The files were gorgeous. The color out of the box was great. However, The dynamic range wasn't as broad as my Oly EM1. The HC 35mm lens is junk. The HC 28mm lens is quite good, but costs about as much as an Otus. I hear the new 24mm is excellent, but very expensive. I am sure you can find a Mamiya AFD II or a V Hassey, a P1 back, and a lens or two within your budget. But you will have a hard time finding an affordable wide angle solution. Whatever the case, your MFD solution will be technologically less sophisticated than currently available smaller format digital options. Funny, all of the MFD players are transitioning to CMOS sensors.
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i already have the wide angle lenses
I still don't understand. If you are only shooting landscapes with wide angles, why the 135mm and 85mm lenses? Is the choice between a 135mm that you don't need and a MF that you don't need?
And can you tell what wide-angle lenses you use on the D800? In my experience with the Hasselblad H lenses and the D800, Hasselblad simply trounces all what Nikon can offer as wide-angle lenses. If you are doing landscape work and are prepared to live with the limitations of MF (size, weight...), a second hand MF with a wide angle will allow you to print at least one size bigger.
ok let me try this again. i have the d800 with lenses from 16mm to 600mm. the reason i was talking about the zeiss lenses, i am giving to my wife my nikon 85mm 1.4d and my 135mm dc lenses and replace them with the zeiss, since my wife does not want to mf and i mostly do mf. since it is my wife, if i want the dc look of the 135 i can always get it. the p30 sensor, using my 503 will not allow me, when it is needed, to use wide angle lenses but it doesn't stop me on the tele end. i don't have h lenses i have v lenses for the 503 which are still damn good lenses. for the ultra wide nikon, i have the 16-35 lens. my epson printer is 24" so the ability to print one size bigger is a non-starter unless i want to send my work out.
so the reason for the post is based on the money available to me, and having both the nikon d800 with lenses and a hasselblad 503 with lenses and printing myself on the epson printer.
for those that have similar equipment, with the printing perimeters i have set, will i see significant differences in the images from the d800 vs. purchasing a mfdb ( p25/p30 or similar leaf back) attached to my hasselblad 503 using the v system lenses. i will test myself, i just want to get a feel from others until i do the testing with the hope that where i go will have the equipment to test.
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ok let me try this again. i have the d800 with lenses from 16mm to 600mm. the reason i was talking about the zeiss lenses, i am giving to my wife my nikon 85mm 1.4d and my 135mm dc lenses and replace them with the zeiss, since my wife does not want to mf and i mostly do mf. since it is my wife, if i want the dc look of the 135 i can always get it. the p30 sensor, using my 503 will not allow me, when it is needed, to use wide angle lenses but it doesn't stop me on the tele end. i don't have h lenses i have v lenses for the 503 which are still damn good lenses. for the ultra wide nikon, i have the 16-35 lens. my epson printer is 24" so the ability to print one size bigger is a non-starter unless i want to send my work out.
so the reason for the post is based on the money available to me, and having both the nikon d800 with lenses and a hasselblad 503 with lenses and printing myself on the epson printer.
for those that have similar equipment, with the printing perimeters i have set, will i see significant differences in the images from the d800 vs. purchasing a mfdb ( p25/p30 or similar leaf back) attached to my hasselblad 503 using the v system lenses. i will test myself, i just want to get a feel from others until i do the testing with the hope that where i go will have the equipment to test.
I talked about the H lenses, because these are what I have. I can't talk about V lenses, but I suppose that they are just as good. If they are just as good, you will get sharper pictures (especially corners) on a P30 back than with the 16-35. The difference will be tiny at 24", however.
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deleted.
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i am selling some gear that will net about $7,000. i am thinking of going 2 ways. one, buy a used digital back, i guess a maximum of a p30 or aptus 5 that can be attached to my hasselblad 503, or two, buy the zeiss 135mm apo for my nikon d800 and use the rest of the money to buy the otus 85mm when it is finally released. max. print size 24x30. i think the nikon gives me more flexability from ultra wide to super tele. i am leaning (60/40) towards the lens option. any thoughts.
Cant give advice unless we have more info about what you want to do with the medium format digital gear, what are your expectations of that gear, how you like to work etc. Its good that you posted what you already have available.
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Hi,
Here you can find MTF data for all Hasselblad V-series lenses: http://www.hasselbladhistorical.eu/HW/HWLds.aspx
I would say that my experience corresponds pretty well to the published MTF data. Hasselblad publishes similar MTF data for the H-series lenses.
Personally, I feel that my 40/4, 50/4 and 80/2.8 lenses are sharp at the center but not very good in the corners. The issue may be mostly field curvature, which may actually be helpful sometimes.
Example here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/SampleImages/Planar_80_28/
Best regards
Erik
ok let me try this again. i have the d800 with lenses from 16mm to 600mm. the reason i was talking about the zeiss lenses, i am giving to my wife my nikon 85mm 1.4d and my 135mm dc lenses and replace them with the zeiss, since my wife does not want to mf and i mostly do mf. since it is my wife, if i want the dc look of the 135 i can always get it. the p30 sensor, using my 503 will not allow me, when it is needed, to use wide angle lenses but it doesn't stop me on the tele end. i don't have h lenses i have v lenses for the 503 which are still damn good lenses. for the ultra wide nikon, i have the 16-35 lens. my epson printer is 24" so the ability to print one size bigger is a non-starter unless i want to send my work out.
so the reason for the post is based on the money available to me, and having both the nikon d800 with lenses and a hasselblad 503 with lenses and printing myself on the epson printer.
for those that have similar equipment, with the printing perimeters i have set, will i see significant differences in the images from the d800 vs. purchasing a mfdb ( p25/p30 or similar leaf back) attached to my hasselblad 503 using the v system lenses. i will test myself, i just want to get a feel from others until i do the testing with the hope that where i go will have the equipment to test.
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i am selling some gear that will net about $7,000.
There is an H3D-39 for sale for $4000 in the forum: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=88238.0 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=88238.0). For the remaining $3000 you could get an HCD28 or an adapter for your V lenses...
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There is an H3D-39 for sale for $4000 in the forum: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=88238.0 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=88238.0). For the remaining $3000 you could get an HCD28 or an adapter for your V lenses...
Hassey no longer supports the H3D-39.
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Hassey no longer supports the H3D-39.
That is probably the reason behind the low price. Besides, Hasselblad still supports mechanical repairs on the H3D-39, it is only some electronic components in the back which they cannot repair any more.
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I shot IQ260 on a Linhof Techno and Sony A7r. 3000 shot later, I concluded that the file from the Sony A7r is exceptional if pairs with the proper lenses. Yes, the shutter is loud and there is light leak if you plan to shoot ISO 25600 for 30 second or plan to have a flash light pointing to the mount area ;). Other than that, I think it's quite a marvelous choice for landscape.
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If you're on such a low budget as $7K I'd say go with the 35mm DSLR systems if you're into getting the best performance for your money, and go for a second hand MF system if you like the old-school handling of these systems or just like to have something different. Don't expect it to be better in a technical aspect though, except for possibly some particular aspects like lens bokeh or something.
I have an ancient Aptus 75, the image quality is just fine with that, but sure it wouldn't hurt with the DR you get from an A7r in some difficult lighting conditions in my landscape photography, and sometimes higher ISO and longer exposure would be nice too. However, I just love working and make images with my Linhof Techno, and well, to do that I must have a digital back and I chose one that matched by budget and had good performance in absolute terms.
The message is that if you buy a budget MF system it's generally not for imaging performance alone, it's for that you like to use the camera.
If you shoot landscape I think a tech camera with movements is what really makes the MF experience fun, the shooting experience is then so much different from a regular DSLR. The attached snap I shot yesterday using my Linhof Techno and SK72mm Digitar lens, it has 15mm vertical shift, 2 degrees of tilt and 2 degrees of swing. Couldn't have done that with an A7r (oh well, perhaps I could, not sure about tilt-shift lens availability, it's less flexible than a Techno for sure though). Not the greatest image perhaps, but just a few hours old example of when I used shift tilt and swing in combination.
I have six lenses in my system, all with very good imaging performance, all with at least 90mm image circles, all bought second hand. Compared to buying Otus-type of lenses new my system is actually quite a bit cheaper, and the second hand MF market is quite good.
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For 7k$ I'd get an Arca Swiss F-Line, the Arca Swiss Cube and some decent glass and an Epson V750 scanner.
This will keep you from going out when you don't really want to take images and
it will keep you from taking meaningless and uninspired digital junk.
Or get a small and fast camera, like A Fuji X100s and storm the streets.
Or start doing video and get a Black Magic.
You could also take drawing lessons or buy a microscope or a telescope.
Anything else is most likely not a ground breaking decision.
Ask yourself what kind of photographer you want to be and chose accordingly.
Maybe the best decision would be to not invest the money into gear at all but some trips to great locations you'd otherwise never see.
Cheers
~Chris
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For 7k$ I'd get an Arca Swiss F-Line, the Arca Swiss Cube and some decent glass and an Epson V750 scanner.
This will keep you from going out when you don't really want to take images and
it will keep you from taking meaningless and uninspired digital junk.
Or get a small and fast camera, like A Fuji X100s and storm the streets.
Or start doing video and get a Black Magic.
You could also take drawing lessons or buy a microscope or a telescope.
Anything else is most likely not a ground breaking decision.
Ask yourself what kind of photographer you want to be and chose accordingly.
Maybe the best decision would be to not invest the money into gear at all but some trips to great locations you'd otherwise never see.
Cheers
~Chris
Humm, How about this 50MP (Multi-Shot a la Hasselblad MS) Camera Phone (http://connect.dpreview.com/post/3690130016/oppo-find-7-features-qhd-display-and-50mp-images?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=news-list&utm_medium=text&ref=title_0_12) ;D ;D
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Does $7K buy you half a day of Kate Moss these days? That might be a useful portofolio investment :)
Edmund
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Hassey no longer supports the H3D-39.
Not completely accurate:
H2D-22, H2D-39, H3D-22, H3D-39
- Service is available for analogue repair of the H body.
- Service is limited to IR Filter and Linkboard replacements.
So for example a failed mirror can be repaired/replaced.
Service is also provided elsewhere for repairs:
http://www.B23.dk/
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Does $7K buy you half a day of Kate Moss these days? That might be a useful portofolio investment :)
Edmund
Regretably not ::) but close Daily: USD 22,800.00
http://www.paywizard.org/main/salary/vip-check/kate-moss
As to accuracy ?????????
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Hi,
I would agree on what Anders Torger says. I am pretty sure that high end 135 matches/surpasses low end MFD in many areas. So, main reason to use MF is something else, could be flexibility or just pleasure.
At this time I would just put the money in the bank.
Some points:
- I have observed very little difference between MFD (P45+) and 24 MP full frame in prints of A2 size (17" x 24") . Beyond that I guess MFD has an advantage.
- What I see is that the old Hasselblad lenses are a bit weak in the corners. I guess my Sony 24-70/2.8 at 40 mm beats my Planar 80/2.8 in the corners when enlarged to same size, even if the Sony has only 24MP and the Hassy/P45+ has 39MP. In center the Hassy wins, no discussion.
- Some Hasselblad lenses seem to be very good (according to MTF data), like: Distagon 40/4 CFE (IF FLE), Planar 100/3.5. Putting money in these lenses may make some sense. I am considering getting a 100/3.5 and replacing my 150/4 with a 180/4, for instance.
- Quite possibly, P45+ prices may go down. CMOS sensors may cause a drop on price of older CCD designs.
Best regards
Erik
If you're on such a low budget as $7K I'd say go with the 35mm DSLR systems if you're into getting the best performance for your money, and go for a second hand MF system if you like the old-school handling of these systems or just like to have something different. Don't expect it to be better in a technical aspect though, except for possibly some particular aspects like lens bokeh or something.
I have an ancient Aptus 75, the image quality is just fine with that, but sure it wouldn't hurt with the DR you get from an A7r in some difficult lighting conditions in my landscape photography, and sometimes higher ISO and longer exposure would be nice too. However, I just love working and make images with my Linhof Techno, and well, to do that I must have a digital back and I chose one that matched by budget and had good performance in absolute terms.
The message is that if you buy a budget MF system it's generally not for imaging performance alone, it's for that you like to use the camera.
If you shoot landscape I think a tech camera with movements is what really makes the MF experience fun, the shooting experience is then so much different from a regular DSLR. The attached snap I shot yesterday using my Linhof Techno and SK72mm Digitar lens, it has 15mm vertical shift, 2 degrees of tilt and 2 degrees of swing. Couldn't have done that with an A7r (oh well, perhaps I could, not sure about tilt-shift lens availability, it's less flexible than a Techno for sure though). Not the greatest image perhaps, but just a few hours old example of when I used shift tilt and swing in combination.
I have six lenses in my system, all with very good imaging performance, all with at least 90mm image circles, all bought second hand. Compared to buying Otus-type of lenses new my system is actually quite a bit cheaper, and the second hand MF market is quite good.
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As I see it:
1) $7K is some pretty good money but by all means that doesn't get you deep into DMF country. You'll be always only scratching the surface. On the opposite, spending that money on FF gear gets you some of the latest and best stuff.
2) Keeping with best of the lesser side also gives you the opportunity to have the best and at the same time the opp for upgrading at will. Who doesn't suffer from GAS? (N, C and S will love me for this).
3) We are only 5 months from Fotokina. Rumors abound about new economical MF entries. I know, they are only rumors but people claim and shout for a new world order every single day.
Good luck with your decision
Eduardo
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Pentax 645Z maybe is your answer? the problem is you need to add little more to get just the body, not just if that including the kit with 1 lens, but i am sure the lens is also expensive, so you definitely need over $7k anyway, and it is a new upcoming MFD, so keep an eye on that one.