Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Steven B on March 27, 2014, 12:26:10 am
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Is anyone jumping on this sale? It sounds like a great way to get a new complete system for 13995. Mamiya DF+ body + Sekor LS 80mm 2.8 + Credo 40mp digiback. I'm wondering if anyone has some feedback. Still on the fence committing the big bucks, but this deal has seriously caught my eye and it's almost over already. :(
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This is the best deal I've seen in years. Credo backs are great. There is Live View, you can put it on tech and view cam. The body and the lens are worth half of this money when bought separately. It's so good deal that I'm confused - why are they doing this? I don't think the new IQ250 is that better. If I was in US I would buy this Credo immediately, since I need a back up solution for my IQ160.
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There's probably a 50MP CMOS Credo in the pipeline so as they discontinued the IQ140 they might also do the same with the Credo 40.
Just speculating of course.. The deal is great value regardless..
Peter
It's so good deal that I'm confused - why are they doing this?
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i thought about it but decided to bide my time with an A7r which i am very happy with for my kind of work. i think the back itself is the best of the 40mp's but i'm not enamoured by the body. there were a few legacy lenses that i was interested in like the mamiya shift and the 1.9 portrait lens which also swayed my thinking.
the H4D-40 and the 35-90 zoom was also an option and i prefer the body and lens compared to the phamiya but i'm a capture1 convert. i came to the conclusion that all the systems were flawed in some way and it really depends on the work you are doing.
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i think the back itself is the best of the 40mp's but i'm not enamoured by the body.
It is too bad that they did not make the back available in the H mount at the same price as well...
$10K could have persuaded quite a few people with a Hasselblad H1/H2/H4X body.
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There's probably a 50MP CMOS Credo in the pipeline so as they discontinued the IQ140 they might also do the same with the Credo 40.
Just speculating of course.. The deal is great value regardless..
Peter
Hi Peter -
Just as an aside, the IQ140 is a current product and has not been discontinued, at least not formally or officially.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Hi Steve,
My mistake then, I thought that was the case. I think I read it somewhere, but maybe that was also just speculation ;-)
Peter
Hi Peter -
Just as an aside, the IQ140 is a current product and has not been discontinued, at least not formally or officially.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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It's so good deal that I'm confused - why are they doing this?
Same here... I'm hoping I can get this price a few months down the road when I have the savings to afford it...
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Steven
We have just added the ability to purchase any of our systems with the 'Bill Me Later' feature that includes one of the following promotions when you make a qualifying purchase:
- No Payments + No Interest if paid in full in 6 or 9 months
- No Interest if paid in full in 6, 12, or 18 months (with required minimum monthly payments)
This has worked well for some of our clients that wanted to take advantage of the Credo 40 promotion but did not have all the money today.
Please contact us @ Digital Transitions for additional details.
Lance
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Hi Steve,
My mistake then, I thought that was the case. I think I read it somewhere, but maybe that was also just speculation ;-)
Peter
It's an easy mistake to make as when you view the products on the Phase One site, immediately below is the "pre-owned" tab. I also thought the IQ 1st gen were no longer sold as new.
http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/IQ-Series.aspx (http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/IQ-Series.aspx)
Paul
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It's a very good deal - 40mp backs are hard to sell at high prices, since there are a few DSLRs at that resolution already.
Credo is much nicer than Aptus - however note that it gathers much more sensor dust. With Aptus you can go months without cleaning, with Credo I need to clean every couple of days. I would say an electric design bug probably shared with IQ. Credo colors are more accurate but less punchy. Credo is 1/3 stop more light sensitive on same ISO, and slightly less noisy.
DF+ is supposed to have much better MTBF, I could not find many other differences to DF (easier live view, but live view works well only under very strong light).
80LS I found the same quality as 80D, I didn't check wide open.
If you really hate dust, you might want to think about a used Aptus for a lot less.
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It's an easy mistake to make as when you view the products on the Phase One site, immediately below is the "pre-owned" tab. I also thought the IQ 1st gen were no longer sold as new.
http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/IQ-Series.aspx (http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/IQ-Series.aspx)
Paul
https://www.digitalstore.at/foto/dig-mf/kam_u_rueckteile/?m=PHASE%20ONE
There are even P series here ???. But, maybe they haven't updated their website yet.
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The only thing which costs money in the backs is the sensor and the R&D.
Maybe Phase could just simplify their product range.
Edmund
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It's a very good deal - 40mp backs are hard to sell at high prices, since there are a few DSLRs at that resolution already.
Credo is much nicer than Aptus - however note that it gathers much more sensor dust. With Aptus you can go months without cleaning, with Credo I need to clean every couple of days. I would say an electric design bug probably shared with IQ. Credo colors are more accurate but less punchy. Credo is 1/3 stop more light sensitive on same ISO, and slightly less noisy.
DF+ is supposed to have much better MTBF, I could not find many other differences to DF (easier live view, but live view works well only under very strong light).
80LS I found the same quality as 80D, I didn't check wide open.
If you really hate dust, you might want to think about a used Aptus for a lot less.
The 80LS is slightly sharper wide open and exhibits less color artifacting than the 80 D.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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The 80LS is slightly sharper wide open and exhibits less color artifacting than the 80 D.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
If you could expand on color artifacting I would be very interested to know.
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If you could expand on color artifacting I would be very interested to know.
Actually I've viewed some tests this week and have found results that counter this to some degree, to the point that the resolution differences between the 2 lenses to be so close as to be negligible (slight variation lens to lens may have accounted for results of a past test we did). Same with color artifacting - which isn't exactly what I meant - what I meant was more contrast, which resulted in a deeper black on the Schneider version. Didn't really see that on the tests we did this week.
Certainly compared to the legacy 80mm I would stand by that assessment, and add that chromatic aberrations shot at wide apertures are far more likely. But for the Schneider LS and the D, based on the most recent tests, I would say they are close to even, and slight sample variation (or even condition of a lens) might account for any noticeable differences.
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In my quite the extensive testing, I found more difference between Mamiya 80D and Phase 80D, than between Phase and Schneider. The non D of course is very far behind.
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In my quite the extensive testing, I found more difference between Mamiya 80D and Phase 80D, than between Phase and Schneider. The non D of course is very far behind.
Can you expand on "quite extensive" please? Do you mean much time and in depth analysis on those specific lenses or do you mean that, but also over many, many copies of those lenses?
Thanks,
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Not many many copies of course, but I've had a few pairs of Mamiya D and Phase D that I could compare.
I compare only in the parameters that are relevant to me.
Schneider I've seen only one copy, but could find almost no difference at all in the results.
With Mamiya vs. Phase I've had at least three opportunities, and I saw similar differences in contrast and sharpness in all cases.
That of course doesn't apply to 120AF which is a new lens so also the Mamiya copies are good.
In extensive I meant that I was deliberate and careful in testing what I had in hand.
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Not many many copies of course, but I've had a few pairs of Mamiya D and Phase D that I could compare.
I compare only in the parameters that are relevant to me.
Schneider I've seen only one copy, but could find almost no difference at all in the results.
With Mamiya vs. Phase I've had at least three opportunities, and I saw similar differences in contrast and sharpness in all cases.
That of course doesn't apply to 120AF which is a new lens so also the Mamiya copies are good.
In extensive I meant that I was deliberate and careful in testing what I had in hand.
I would chalk it up to some sample variation - the 80mm and 120mm af lenses are both available in Mamiya and Phase One badging, so don't know why the 120 would be more consistent between the two just because it is a newer lens.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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No, I'm quite sure it's not random.
The 120MF for instance, I've seen a few copies and the Mamiya was definite not as good as the Phase.
The 120AF is new, meaning it is from a time better practices are used in the factory. I guess if you got two new copies from the factory today, they would be similar, but most of the Mamiya D's were made a few years before the Phase lenses, and are not as good.
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No, I'm quite sure it's not random.
The 120MF for instance, I've seen a few copies and the Mamiya was definite not as good as the Phase.
The 120AF is new, meaning it is from a time better practices are used in the factory. I guess if you got two new copies from the factory today, they would be similar, but most of the Mamiya D's were made a few years before the Phase lenses, and are not as good.
It is quite possible - and likely - that practices/processes, and even raw materials - improve with a product line over time - that, I will agree with.
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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I'm a little late to the discussion (and probably too late to be helpful!), but I purchased the Credo 40 kit from Steve Hendrix and received it last week. Once I knock out a few assignments with it, I'll probably have more to say - but I shoot architecture for a living (have had a P45+ for the last year and a half, and an Aptus II-5 before that) and was looking for a back with a little more flexibility. Namely, the ability to shoot exteriors untethered without cursing at the display. Also, even though the Mamiya/Phase DF+ is the subject of a lot of criticism in various forums, having the ability to put my MFDB on an autofocus SLR is a novel concept for a guy who has shot with a V-interface back for the past five years. While I shoot primarily with an Arca Rm3di, I have firms who are beginning to request more "editorial" type shots along with the carefully constructed architectural images. Especially in the higher ed market, which is a large part of my business. Being able to move from tech camera to SLR without running a Nikon/Canon in addition is great. I feel like the current Credo 40 deal is an incredible value.
The ONLY thing that gives me pause is losing 10% of my frame to the crop sensor. I feel like I might be the only one out there wielding 33x44mm on buildings. Ideally I'd be enjoying the Credo 60, but all five of my lenses are Schneiders, the widest being the 24XL and the 35XL. The 24 won't cover full frame (indeed, just covers my P45+), and the 35 is a bit marginal for big sensors, anecdotally. And no good for the 80MP sensors, if I ever win the lottery. So in addition to the substantially higher cost of the 60MP back, I'd have to add in a Rodenstock 23 and 32 to replace my Schneiders prior to going full frame. I've been shooting for four years, so my budget is not comparable to some of the more experienced folks rattling around this forum. I can't sink all my resources into the MFDB, there's some lighting and grip stuff that also contribute a lot to how I work. So the cost delta of full frame isn't really worth it for me at the moment. I wish they put a 36x48 into a Credo or IQ. It's about the best chip size, IMHO.
I'm in the mid-Atlantic and the busy season hasn't really kicked off yet, but my limited experience with the Credo 40 thus far is a net positive. The display is excellent, the colors are great, the dynamic range is more than my P45+, and I did a full minute exposure with no noise. Which is about as much as I've ever needed. Tethering with USB also opens up that neat option I read about involving the Microsoft Surface tablet. And the DF+ is relatively easy to use for my purposes. I slapped the Credo on it today and photographed my P45+ (post in the For Sale forum - make me an offer ;)) I took it out on the Arca for a small assignment at a high school on Friday, and I did find myself wishing for a 32HR at one point, but I think a few years with a crop sensor might be good for some compositional discipline. Unless I start shooting high rises, then Steve Hendrix can probably expect another big check from my bank.
In a month or so I plan on putting together a blog post with some images from the Credo, and how it is to live with. So far, I'm quite impressed.
Tom
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I can't speak to the Sk24, but the SK35 on the 60MP is great on center, as long as you have the CF installed. You can also get about 7 to 8mm of horizontal shift before the magenta shift/color smearing will ruin the shift. On rise and fall you can push it a bit more, this seems to be due to the layout of the Phase sensors, I would say around 9mm.
The current Phase One/Capture One LCC correction on the 35SK is very good on these types of movements. However if you are looking for the 80MP back in the future, then the 35SK is not as good a companion.
Chris Barrett shots with the SK35 for architecture with the IQ260 and he might be a good person to ask for more detailed info. My work is all landscape, outdoor.
I agree the Rod 23 and 32 need a bit of a lottery to use and both are huge and heavy lenses, the 32 being larger and even heavier. The 23 will limit you more with it's 70mm image circle at least with shifts or rise fall.
Congrats on the new kit.
Paul
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I am also interested in seeing the results with the Credo 40, I am looking to upgrade my Aputs75 back. I like the look of the Aptus files, but my unit has been a nightmare to work with.
Any news of an H mount deal?
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Paul, the SK24 has an IC of 60mm, which will (barely) cover a 36x48 sensor with no shift. I think the Credo 40 may be able to eke out 4mm or so with it. But I bought the SK24 used a year ago for 1/3 the cost of the 23HR, and I wanted to continue to use it if possible - especially considering it's probably worth $1.50 in resale now as many people have gone full frame. I definitely agree with your thoughts on the SK35, which has been a great lens for my P45+ and I expected it would do pretty well with the 60MP sensor. I have a CF for both the 24 and 35, and use them all the time, as it really aids the LCC.
I think I'm set for a while, and will have to see where the MFDB market moves over the next couple of years before I start replacing my SK lenses for heavier, more expensive, more complex designs. Although I've heard very nice things about the 32HR.
Tom
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I bought the credo 40 with H mount. I will be picking it up next week and in the meantime am playing with a loaner iq140 to get used to my new H4x. I was tempted to go the df+ but I feel more comfortable with the hassy lens line up for now (love the Schneider LS lenses but there just aren't the right ones for me for now)
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I'm a little late to the discussion (and probably too late to be helpful!), but I purchased the Credo 40 kit from Steve Hendrix and received it last week. Once I knock out a few assignments with it, I'll probably have more to say - but I shoot architecture for a living (have had a P45+ for the last year and a half, and an Aptus II-5 before that) and was looking for a back with a little more flexibility. Namely, the ability to shoot exteriors untethered without cursing at the display. Also, even though the Mamiya/Phase DF+ is the subject of a lot of criticism in various forums, having the ability to put my MFDB on an autofocus SLR is a novel concept for a guy who has shot with a V-interface back for the past five years. While I shoot primarily with an Arca Rm3di, I have firms who are beginning to request more "editorial" type shots along with the carefully constructed architectural images. Especially in the higher ed market, which is a large part of my business. Being able to move from tech camera to SLR without running a Nikon/Canon in addition is great. I feel like the current Credo 40 deal is an incredible value.
The ONLY thing that gives me pause is losing 10% of my frame to the crop sensor. I feel like I might be the only one out there wielding 33x44mm on buildings. Ideally I'd be enjoying the Credo 60, but all five of my lenses are Schneiders, the widest being the 24XL and the 35XL. The 24 won't cover full frame (indeed, just covers my P45+), and the 35 is a bit marginal for big sensors, anecdotally. And no good for the 80MP sensors, if I ever win the lottery. So in addition to the substantially higher cost of the 60MP back, I'd have to add in a Rodenstock 23 and 32 to replace my Schneiders prior to going full frame. I've been shooting for four years, so my budget is not comparable to some of the more experienced folks rattling around this forum. I can't sink all my resources into the MFDB, there's some lighting and grip stuff that also contribute a lot to how I work. So the cost delta of full frame isn't really worth it for me at the moment. I wish they put a 36x48 into a Credo or IQ. It's about the best chip size, IMHO.
I'm in the mid-Atlantic and the busy season hasn't really kicked off yet, but my limited experience with the Credo 40 thus far is a net positive. The display is excellent, the colors are great, the dynamic range is more than my P45+, and I did a full minute exposure with no noise. Which is about as much as I've ever needed. Tethering with USB also opens up that neat option I read about involving the Microsoft Surface tablet. And the DF+ is relatively easy to use for my purposes. I slapped the Credo on it today and photographed my P45+ (post in the For Sale forum - make me an offer ;)) I took it out on the Arca for a small assignment at a high school on Friday, and I did find myself wishing for a 32HR at one point, but I think a few years with a crop sensor might be good for some compositional discipline. Unless I start shooting high rises, then Steve Hendrix can probably expect another big check from my bank.
In a month or so I plan on putting together a blog post with some images from the Credo, and how it is to live with. So far, I'm quite impressed.
Tom
Keep us updated for sure, definitely interested in how your gigs go with the set up. Thanks for sharing.
-Steven
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I have this exact same kit and I am more than happy with its performance. If you would like to know anything specific, shoot me a question.