Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear => Topic started by: Theodoros on January 27, 2014, 07:07:37 am
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It seems that Sony released an MF 33x44mm image size Cmos sensor for use on MF cameras, that will be shared among most MF makers. It also seems that this sensor has been "tuned" to retain the characteristics that MF users have been used at (Clarity, absence of colour shifts, colour accuracy)… It also seems that this sensor was specially designed for use with MF cameras and that its High Iso performance is restricted a bit lower with respect to current Cmos sensors used with DSLRs…
It is interesting that Sony didn't use an existing FF sensor and multiplied its size, but instead, they designed a completely new sensor for the task, which leads to the conclusion that special care has been given on this for the ultra demanding MF market.
I wonder, wouldn't it make sense if they crop it down to 30Mp-24x36mm in size and use it on FF DSLRs too? It seems that (other than ultra high Iso) this is the best Cmos sensor ever made… if only a bit costly. Would such an FF camera damage the MF market? …would it be a threat for Leica S and for Hasselblad H5D? Would people prefer it from the current solutions they have?
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The current crop of 36mp FF sensors is at least 2.5 years old in design, so isn't it only natural that a newer generation was used for the IQ250?
I guess that the improvements made to this design will be included in the next generation of FF sensors, but it is anybody's guess what resolution will be featured.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Nikon D4x or D5 has been "rumored" to be 50 to 54MP. For over a year now. I was having a bit of trouble seeing such a sensor but with the Phase One anno, it show Sony semi conductor has been busy for a while. It's also possible Sony will bring out such a large MP 35mm camera to their line.
Paul
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All Sony has to do is square the sensor to 35 x 35 and the have 54 mpixels
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Nikon D4x or D5 has been "rumored" to be 50 to 54MP. For over a year now. I was having a bit of trouble seeing such a sensor but with the Phase One anno, it show Sony semi conductor has been busy for a while. It's also possible Sony will bring out such a large MP 35mm camera to their line.
Paul
Never heard of such a rumour, only some trolls in DPR (no surprise here) that multiply 24mp APS-c sensors up to FF size to invent a (ridiculous) "rumour"… Obviously, sensors can't be upgraded in format terms (they can be down grated though) meaning that an APS-c sensor can't work as FF by simply expanding its surface (the opposite can be done), because the angle that photons hit the sensor on larger area sensors increases dramatically outside the APS-c area.
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The current crop of 36mp FF sensors is at least 2.5 years old in design, so isn't it only natural that a newer generation was used for the IQ250?
I guess that the improvements made to this design will be included in the next generation of FF sensors, but it is anybody's guess what resolution will be featured.
Cheers,
Bernard
the d800 sensor is old, the a7r sensor is a new design and one generation younger. you cans see this (beside the slightly bett image quality) in the much better live/screen view. it doesnt produce so much read out heat.
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the d800 sensor is old, the a7r sensor is a new design and one generation younger. you cans see this (beside the slightly bett image quality) in the much better live/screen view. it doesnt produce so much read out heat.
Possibly, but it doesn't seem to result in higher image quality.
Cheers,
Bernard
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A7r raws are compressed that could suck some IQ out.
But in reality CMOS Bayer sensors are almost as good as they will get.
Sony have solved the read noise problem, we have plenty of resolution, efficiency is over 50% microlens architecture is mostly sorted etc. It doesnt leave a lot of wiggle room for step improvements.
We need new sensor tech like forveon or something to really move on.
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All Sony has to do is square the sensor to 35 x 35 and the have 54 mpixels
And the perfect sensor for my dream camera: A small, fixed lens digital TLR.
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Never heard of such a rumour, only some trolls in DPR (no surprise here) that multiply 24mp APS-c sensors up to FF size to invent a (ridiculous) "rumour"… Obviously, sensors can't be upgraded in format terms (they can be down grated though) meaning that an APS-c sensor can't work as FF by simply expanding its surface (the opposite can be done), because the angle that photons hit the sensor on larger area sensors increases dramatically outside the APS-c area.
I would hate to think I am being called a troll.
Actually Nikon rumors has made monthly statements in regards to a follow on 54MP camera for Nikon. Sony rumors has also. I realize these are "rumors" however if you take a breath for a sec, you might realize that most of what they say comes about. Rumors are leaked for a reason.
Try a few searches for 54MP and Nikon, and or Canon, or Sony, see what you get.
Paul
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Tell that to Canon Rumours who have had a 100-400 mkII being released 'soon' for 8 years...
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Tell that to Canon Rumours who have had a 100-400 mkII being released 'soon' for 8 years...
Lenses are a lot less predictable because every single lens can be compared to a camera line.
So Canon has 5-6 camera lines and probably 50-60 lens lines. Prioritization is
Now, you have a point, Canonrumors has been reporting fake high resolution sensor based camera rumors every 6 months before major photographic events for more than 2 years... ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Most manufacturers bring out 2 or 3 SLR bodies a year, these lines are well defined and quite understood.
The rumour sites could (and do) write endless bullshit over these models, so what if they get the details wrong? Still drives traffic , generates revenue. Which is their purpose.
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Never heard of such a rumour, only some trolls in DPR (no surprise here) that multiply 24mp APS-c sensors up to FF size to invent a (ridiculous) "rumour"… Obviously, sensors can't be upgraded in format terms (they can be down grated though) meaning that an APS-c sensor can't work as FF by simply expanding its surface (the opposite can be done), because the angle that photons hit the sensor on larger area sensors increases dramatically outside the APS-c area.
When Sony was making APS-c sensors at 16mp, they came out with the 36mp sensor, exactly 2.25x the 16mp layout. I suspect there are some factors to consider that do not scale cleanly, so having a design that works at a particular component density is an achievement one might replicate on a larger wafer. Rumors of a D4x with such a sensor based on the 24mp APS-c component layout have been around Nikonrumors for over almost two years. True.
That being said, I am not expecting a 30mp full frame sensor.
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When Sony was making APS-c sensors at 16mp, they came out with the 36mp sensor, exactly 2.25x the 16mp layout. I suspect there are some factors to consider that do not scale cleanly, so having a design that works at a particular component density is an achievement one might replicate on a larger wafer. Rumors of a D4x with such a sensor based on the 24mp APS-c component layout have been around Nikonrumors for over almost two years. True.
That being said, I am not expecting a 30mp full frame sensor.
Similar pixel density count has nothing to do with same sensor expanded in area, the 36mp FF sensor is a completely different sensor than the 16.2 mp APS-C one... not even pixel size matches, nor pixel depth neither micro lenses design or thickness of "walls" between pixels.
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Similar pixel density count has nothing to do with same sensor expanded in area, the 36mp FF sensor is a completely different sensor than the 16.2 mp APS-C one... not even pixel size matches, nor pixel depth neither micro lenses design or thickness of "walls" between pixels.
I didn't suggest that there wouldn't be changes to the design. I suggested that aspects of the design were scale optimized. I don't think it's a coincidence that 36 = 16 * 2.25. But that doesn't mean I think they used exactly the same design.
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I didn't suggest that there wouldn't be changes to the design. I suggested that aspects of the design were scale optimized. I don't think it's a coincidence that 36 = 16 * 2.25. But that doesn't mean I think they used exactly the same design.
There are no changes to the design… IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SENSOR, the area factor of FF is 2.35xAPS-c not 2.25X… That's why D800 ends up 15.5MP when used on APS-C crop factor, while D7K is 16.2… even more, the depth of the well and the design of it also differ. It doesn't work like that: "Aaaah similar (close) pixel size, hence same sensor multiplied!!!"… D800's sensor is a design from scratch to solve FF problems of receiving the photons correctly.
The fact that ALL makers use the same design approach on their sensors and develop on it, is "technique" that they develop, it doesn't mean that sensors are related more than what is called "family resemblance", neither "family resemblance" has anything to do with pixel size…, it exists between Sony's 24mp and 36mp FF sensors just the same. Certainly though, there hasn't ever been an APS-c sensor that its area has been multiplied to create an FF sensor, nor there will be one in the future from any maker!!!
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Most manufacturers bring out 2 or 3 SLR bodies a year, these lines are well defined and quite understood.
The rumour sites could (and do) write endless bullshit over these models, so what if they get the details wrong? Still drives traffic , generates revenue. Which is their purpose.
Sure… however, I believe that's easy to differentiate between "Official" rumor sites and trolls that "create" stupid rumours out of their minds. How many cameras would a D4X sell? …would 10000 annually look sensible? Is there any maker that would make a sensor to be produced for only 10000 units annually? The 1DX sensor (which is the lowest production in the market after the release of Df) is for more than 50000 cameras annually. If a D4x would ever be released, it would either use D800/E's sensor or (maybe) a crop version of 30mp (as suggested in the O/P) of the MF sensor… Besides, is there anybody who believes that people that buy these cameras have (more) pixel density as a priority? Despite the fact that (more than todays) pixel density would lead to less sales, discussions about the matter only come from people that are not the possible customer for the product they talk about.
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There are no changes to the design… IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SENSOR
Apparently, you are in violent non-disagreement with me.
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Sure… however, I believe that's easy to differentiate between "Official" rumor sites and trolls that "create" stupid rumours out of their minds. How many cameras would a D4X sell? …would 10000 annually look sensible? Is there any maker that would make a sensor to be produced for only 10000 units annually?
There have been rumors of a Sony 54MP sensor for some time now, published both at SonyAlphaRumors, and here. One supposes just as the D3x sensor was co-developed along with the A900/A850 sensor, it might be true that the D4x sensor fundamentals would be shared with other cameras, perhaps after a period of exclusivity.
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i applaud sony's dynamic leadership in this area. Financially the company is trouble with investor;s right now http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/27/technology/sony-downgrade-junk/index.html but i suspect they are large enough to survive that storm.
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There have been rumors of a Sony 54MP sensor for some time now, published both at SonyAlphaRumors, and here. One supposes just as the D3x sensor was co-developed along with the A900/A850 sensor, it might be true that the D4x sensor fundamentals would be shared with other cameras, perhaps after a period of exclusivity.
Where from? …may you post a link of the "rumour" provider? Do you think that any calculator user that can multiply a number by (wrong) 2.25x is a "rumour creator"? Just answer me my previous question then… "how come and D800's APS-c files are of 15.5mps rather than 16.2 as of D7K…?". May you please post relevant to the O/P instead of ruin a conversation because of "rumours" of yours? …you've already dominated the conversation with irrelevant and "mp count - rumour" posts.
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Apparently, you are in violent non-disagreement with me.
We "disagree" on what? …is your position that D7K's sensor is a cropped version of D800's sensor? …this is not a matter of "opinion" for somebody to disagree with. It's a matter of knowledge…. as simple as that!
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i applaud sony's dynamic leadership in this area. Financially the company is trouble with investor;s right now http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/27/technology/sony-downgrade-junk/index.html but i suspect they are large enough to survive that storm.
Haven't you see this happening before Ellis? …Are "Moody's" able to judge imaging consumers needs better than Sony? …Does Moody's (do we?) knows the "end of plan" or how far the progress of it has gone from start? …who would believe it only a month ago? (!!!) …Sony entering the MF market! I don't believe it's as simple as it looks… I don't think of them as so naive to have invested some large amount of money only to develop a sensor for some ultra expensive backs that less than a hundred people will annually buy... ...do you? I think we "see the tree and miss the forest" here...
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Where from? …may you post a link of the "rumour" provider? Do you think that any calculator user that can multiply a number by (wrong) 2.25x is a "rumour creator"? Just answer me my previous question then… "how come and D800's APS-c files are of 15.5mps rather than 16.2 as of D7K…?". May you please post relevant to the O/P instead of ruin a conversation because of "rumours" of yours? …you've already dominated the conversation with irrelevant and "mp count - rumour" posts.
Etc., etc...
You didn't read me correctly. That's ok actually. A bit too quick on the trigger maybe.
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Haven't you see this happening before Ellis? …Are "Moody's" able to judge imaging consumers needs better than Sony? …Does Moody's (do we?) knows the "end of plan" or how far the progress of it has gone from start? …who would believe it only a month ago? (!!!) …Sony entering the MF market! I don't believe it's as simple as it looks… I don't think of them as so naive to have invested some large amount of money only to develop a sensor for some ultra expensive backs that less than a hundred people will annually buy... ...do you? I think we "see the tree and miss the forest" here...
If I understood correctly, your point seems to be that the Sony small-MF sensor was developped because Sony intends to scale down its technology to FF sensors... but you also seem to doubt the possibility of Sony being interested/able in scaling up smaller sensor technology to larger ones.
I agree that Sony semi-conductor did probably not bother to develop this small-MF sensor for P1/Hassy alone, but my belief is simply that they have other orders for this sensor from other players having committed larger volumes. This could be Pentax, Sony camera, Nikon, Samsung,... or Hassy has decided to sell it at 645D prices...
I also believe that higher mp FF sensors are around the corner, irrelevant of whether they are a simple scale up of the D7100/D5300 or completely new designs. They may be Sony, Toshiba, Nikon designs... and will be used in a D4x, D800x,...
Cheers,
Bernard
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44 x 33 sensor, isn't that the same size as the current Pentax 645D sensor ?
Add a sensor to an improving EVF technology and you can get a complete rethink and/or collapse of the current MF SLR and camera back concept. It has potential to reduce the cottage industry industry model.
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If I understood correctly, your point seems to be that the Sony small-MF sensor was developped because Sony intends to scale down its technology to FF sensors... but you also seem to doubt the possibility of Sony being interested/able in scaling up smaller sensor technology to larger ones.
the first EXMOR sensor was APS-C one (in 2007)... not FF (which followed in 2008)... not MF (2014)... so it was smaller -> bigger -> bigger yet
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the first EXMOR sensor was APS-C one (in 2007)... not FF (which followed in 2008)... not MF (2014)... so it was smaller -> bigger -> bigger yet
The talk is for scaling, not for sharing technology…