Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: abaazov on December 23, 2013, 07:56:34 am
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Hi all,
so my trusted z3100 finally broke down. 6 years of very good service. I know it can be fixed, but i am not sure it is worth it. i have not kept up with the state of printing machines over last few years. What are the highest rated machines out there today if I wanted to buy a new one? The "new" Canons, are they worth it?
TIA,
Amnon
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has anyone gone from z3100 to a Canon? any advice?
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Why not get a Z3200, i went from a Z3100 to a Z3200. My Z3200 sits idle for months, works perfectly whenever i print. Where are you located?
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Having bought a z3200, in October, to replace my z3100, I’ll definitely add an endorsement. The Z3200 has been re-engineered and is called their “B” series, which makes it pretty much the state of the art, and a nice machine. I’ve put several hundred feet of canvas and various papers through it and it has produced flawless results. I love the ability of the printer to make its own profiles and to self-calibrate for each media type.
My only complaint is that the fan is kind of loud. It could be easily muffled if one wanted to do so, with a shoe box or similar and some baffles, but due to the size of the printer (I have a 44” edition) it got its own room. One of the nicest details is that the ink carts (except for the red) transfer directly to the new printer, which represents a fairly $ubstantial savings.
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felix i am in montreal. unfortunately, not alot in terms of HP support around here.
amnon
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What local support is needed? Mine was trucked to me and I order supplies off of the web. If a service call is needed during warranty, HP will get someone there.
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Yes Justan you are right, it is the service after warranty i am worried about. i know how to fix my z3100, but it will take me countless hours. getting an hp service call for it will cost over $1000...i hate being in that situation.
amnon
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Don’t misunderstand the following as what kind of printer you buy is irrelevant to me.
In any event you may be looking at notable expense for out of warranty repair. I’m the owner of a company that provides IT support for several businesses in the area. I’ve run the place for over 25 years and have first-hand knowledge of what wide format printer/plotter repairs cost my customers. Note that we don’t do the repairs on these, but know of several local companies that do. They are not inexpensive in any event and service calls run ~ $200 or > per hour, plus parts.
A couple of possible ways to reduce repair cost include an extended factory warranty or a service contract with a local service providing company. Generally, unless you have a friend in the business, it is less expensive to buy a factory extended warranty while the machine is still covered by the original factory warranty than to buy anything after the fact.
With any printer you may spend roughly the same for maintenance, when needed. The variable is on the type of things that need to be replaced down the line. With the HP Z3x00 series, for example, the belt is what is called a pattern failure after a few years. That repair isn't much for parts but requires a lot of labor, and then there are the "while you're there" types of things.
Now which brand may or may not need more or less service after warranty requires a crystal ball which I do not have.
According to Mr. Google, Montreal has a population of about 1.6+ million people, so it is not exactly a remote location…. Given the amount of service providers a population of that size would have, go for whatever brand you think you’d like.
The only thing that is a given is that with a new HP Z3200 series, you can use your current ink cartridges, except for the one that holds red ink. For me that amounted to a notable savings, but isn't the reason i opted for another HP. I did so because i like the feature set, and the fact that the new Z3200 is pretty much the state of the science in 12 inks, wide format printers.
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I get what you are saying Justan. I actually found a service provider this morning, right next to my house, and am curious to see what he will quote me. it is the belt issue and another minor issue.
If I could have my way, I would just get z3100 fixed. I don't know how good the prints are from the z3200, but what I am able to produce from my z3100 is more than satisfactory.
I am hoping this guy will quote me a fair price.
thanks,
amnon
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Amnon,
I have a Z3100 and have contemplated which machine I would choose as a replacement when it dies.
I have suffered several very difficult periods with the Z and ended up buying a second hand Z so I could swap parts. This kept it going for about 6 months but I am again experiencing odd problems.
In the intervening period I looked at what was available in Canada and there is only Epson or Canon.
Justan has had a good experience with HP and I value her comments BUT she is in the US. The situation in Canada is very different.
Here I am in Toronto and I cannot find anyone who will sell me a new Z at a reasonable price (ie other than list) and even if they do offer list price I must wait until it is shipped into the country.
It is far from clear to me that HP wants to play in the graphics art area, and I can only assume that they are walking away from it. The whole company is in some degree of disarray and seems to have lost its direction as the premier printer manufacturer in the World. At present they can only offer the Z3200 since the Z6200 is configured for a different market than fine art printing.
When I struggle through the HP support sites looking for supplies, instead of the HP warehouse, which was very fast in shipping parts and inks, I am now told that I have two options – one is a company in Mississauga which actually is just an order desk for a US based outfit and has NO inventory, and a company in Montreal !!
I note that there is a post from a Z user in the UK who cannot find parts.
Unless something radical changes, my next machine will be a Canon.
The Z has given me some joy and a lot of headaches. The software support is just awful. I don’t need the hassle of struggling to make this thing work.
On the other hand, I have a loathing of Epson printers. I have had three in the past – all of which plugged up solidly and unrepairably. I do not see why I should support a company which has done that to me. As far as I can tell from comments on this site, if you are a high volume printer, then the Epson 7990 and its brethren will produce superb prints. The challenge is keeping them running at volume so that the inks do not plug the machine solid. The 3880 seems to be the only small machine which does not plug with infrequent use.
That leaves Canon which has the same technology in its print heads as does HP. The blog comments seem to say that Canon ProGrafs can support infrequent printing runs without plugging problems. They also seem to have great support.
The problem with Canon comes with pricing. Epson offers the same style of deep discounts in Canada as they do in the US. Canon does not, and HP does not even if you can find someone to give you a quote.
If there was anybody awake in Marketing at either HP or Canon Canada then they would realize that there is an opportunity here that is going begging for business, but we who live here are used to US-centric management and try to live with the results.
Even though this is a Canadian website (many thanks to Michael) most of the posters are from the US and in many cases there is a huge geographic difference that is important in evaluating comments. Up here supplies are a lot more difficult to obtain and a lot more expensive. Some are simply not available, so comments need to be weighed with care.
Please let us know what your decision is. It will help other Canadians to decide what is best for their business.
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I don't know how good the prints are from the z3200, but what I am able to produce from my z3100 is more than satisfactory.
The prints are remarkably similar between the Z3200 and Z3100. I’ve read that some say there is a large difference in the saturated reds, but I don’t have works with a lot of this color, so can’t agree or disagree. HP did change the type of red ink in the z3200 so clearly there is a basis for the anecdotal stories. The detail that 11 of the 12 inks are the same is telling.
Another thing to keep in mind is that computer technology, including printers, represents the state of the science for what is called planned obsolescence. As computer stuff ages, and that includes printers, the likelihood of a variety of parts failing increases. Of course they don’t all do, but fans, pumps, hard drives, gears, flexible plastic parts, circuit boards, buttons, and on and on are sensitive to aging, by design and the choice of materials used.
Justan has had a good experience with HP and I value her comments BUT she is in the US. The situation in Canada is very different.
Thanks for the comment but I’m a he and not a she.
How is being in Canada different for buying hardware? It never occurred to me to find a local reseller as that’s irrelevant for this kind of purchase because most retailers typically don’t know bupkis about the products they sell.
Also, from the dept of fwiw, HP support centers for the wf printers are in Nova Scotia and Costa Rica, iirc.
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I let go of my Z3100 and got a new 3200 and am exceedingly happy with it. Many improvements - can't complain about a single thing.
Good drip technology, embedded spectrophotometer, 200 year Vivera inks - what more could you want - no clogs, great ink and ease of making profiles.
Enough said.
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Hi Amnon,
I had the same problem with my four years old HP z3100 and sold it defect via eBay for 300.- Eur. A little bit disapointing because of medium print volume. Repairing and serivce was to expensive and rare in my area here in Germany. HP seems to be a bit out oft the market concearning FAP. You can find a lot more Epson and Canon service dealers here nearby.
So I decided to downsize with Epson's 3880 plus additional 3years warranty :) and hope this machine will work for min. 5 years.
Print quality is generally good with both printers. Especially b/w is, so far as I've seen until today, a little bit better with HP's z3100.
Regards
oriwo
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Hi Amnon,
I had the same problem with my four years old HP z3100 and sold it defect via eBay for 300.- Eur. A little bit disapointing because of medium print volume. Repairing and serivce was to expensive and rare in my area here in Germany. HP seems to be a bit out oft the market concearning FAP. You can find a lot more Epson and Canon service dealers here nearby.
So I decided to downsize with Epson's 3880 plus additional 3years warranty :) and hope this machine will work for min. 5 years.
Print quality is generally good with both printers. Especially b/w is, so far as I've seen until today, a little bit better with HP's z3100.
Regards
oriwo
There has not been a serviceman for my HP Z3100 and Z3200 since early 2007, a total of 12 printer years. Parts can be bought quite easily. Belt replacement, head carriage PCB replacement took time but was quite doable with the Service Manual available and user videos for that kind of jobs. If the formatter goes belly up there is a more expensive problem but refurbished ones appear on Ebay.
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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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To Justan,
Firstly my apologies for thinking you were a “she”. My only excuse is that I have met several female Tracys but never a male one. Again my apologies.
Secondly I repeat my comment that geography has a significant impact on printer and parts availability. You say:
“How is being in Canada different for buying hardware? It never occurred to me to find a local reseller as that’s irrelevant for this kind of purchase because most retailers typically don’t know bupkis about the products they sell.”
You need a local reseller because HP Canada will not sell you a Z. HP USA will not sell you one either, nor will the large US distributors like IT Supplies and Lexjet. In fact the distributors will not ship any professional graphics printer into Canada whether it is Epson, Canon, or HP.
I live in Toronto with an idiot mayor and a population of around 5 million including the fringe communities. There are 8 HP offices in the greater Toronto area. None know about the Z as an HP product but after lengthy transfers to tech departments will tell you to contact a reseller. The best they will sell you is the T series.
HP Parts Store used to be very good and carried Z parts with a one day turnaround. They appear to have pulled out of the Z market and only carry those parts which also fit lesser printers. I had never heard of HP Support in Nova Scotia, where they have one office and it is an absurd location for support other than simple telephone advice. It would be like you in Seattle being serviced out of Upper Rubber Boot, Arkansas.
When I buy parts for the Z, I want genuine parts and I want them fast. Buying from EBay does neither of those things for me. I have found an EBay supplier sending me tracer cables of the correct length but twisted incorrectly at one end. This just delays me another week at the minimum. Fast EBay also means shipping by courier and we get charged excise duty, plus brokerage fees, as well as sales taxes. A $30 EBay part has cost me $70 at my door.
Proper service means something reasonably local and with available inventory. Finding that is the challenge in my area.
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Firstly my apologies for thinking you were a “she”.
Accepted. Thanks for ‘splaining.
You need a local reseller because HP Canada will not sell you a Z. HP USA will not sell you one either, nor will the large US distributors like IT Supplies and Lexjet. In fact the distributors will not ship any professional graphics printer into Canada whether it is Epson, Canon, or HP.
Interesting. Out of curiosity I called B&H today and asked them about shipping HP wf printers to locations in Canada, and the person I spoke with said that they did that regularly, and that B&H added estimated Canadian taxes at the time of sale to the order so that it would clear customs quicker (and, no doubt, drastically reduce the number of items returned). He added that B&H will not ship Epson printers to Canada at all, because Epson doesn’t want US sellers competing with Canadian sellers. The B&H guy added that B&H isn’t selling the HP Z3200 series currently. Anywho, the ability to ship to Canada for HP appears to be based on the seller; due to that a local re-seller isn’t required by HP.
I had never heard of HP Support in Nova Scotia, where they have one office and it is an absurd location for support other than simple telephone advice. It would be like you in Seattle being serviced out of Upper Rubber Boot, Arkansas.
Oopse, I should have wrote those are the locations for call-in support centers. Sorry for the mis-communication, but I thought that would be obvious from the locations I mentioned. Also, I’m not sure about the one in Nova Scotia. I talk with a lot of people in support centers, due to my day job and have more than once been uncertain about where the other end of a support call connects. Anywho, it is common for all of the bigger manufacturers to provide on-site support by way of local service providers. It’s possible that HP has turned their back on the Toronto area or all of Canada in general for wf printers. I dunno. They have done the same in some other nations.
Proper service means something reasonably local and with available inventory. Finding that is the challenge in my area.
FWIW, having inventory on hand for stuff under warranty is almost never used any more outside of some depot centers and some places, most commonly found on Ebay, who specialize in parts for out of warranty hardware. The industry has largely moved away from the parts on hand model. Shipping capability makes it pointless for local shops to keep inventory beyond stuff used daily. When out of warranty, the availability of parts becomes a very different conversation.
No matter what brand of printer you or anyone selects, if support is important, be sure to find out who the vendor uses for local support but it would be pretty rare for them to have parts on hand. Also, definitely get an extended factory warranty unless you want a kilobuck or more service cost a few years down the line.
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Justan, I was aware that B&H seemed to be the only exception regarding shipping to Canada. I did not mention it to avoid muddying the thrust of the discussion.
However I did not realize that they did not ship Epsons -- not of interest to me anyway. My take on the B&H policy had been that they were a big enough retailer to dictate to the manufacturer what their trading policies would be. It seems that that is not the case, but it does raise the issue of warranties and the important extended warranty. Is that going to be a B&H warranty or an HP one and is it enforceable in Canada. The point is moot since at this time B&H only seem to sell Canons into Canada.
There are so many concerns that I say to my self that I do not need to struggle with this and hence my intent to move to Canon, purchased locally.
For someone like the OP, I consider it appropriate to raise concerns about the longevity of HPs graphic arts business at least in Canada.
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Interesting responses generating a big "WTF?" from this long-time Canadian HP z-fan.
This Canadian in Niagara has had zero problems with recommending either repairing his z3100, or buying a new z3200, or servicing either.
Rule 1: Always buy in the US and ship it over from Altex (or one of the other commercial printer resellers in Ohio or New York) Why pay 50% more to buy in Canada? I paid something like US$1595 for mine brand new, had it trucked to the border, and paid only the HST on the way through.
Rule 2: Service is out there for HP. Yes, in Canada.
Good service, at that. I had the z3100 belt fail in 2012. A quick google search and a couple of calls gave me a choice of three service providers in the greater Toronto area. I chose a good one for a house call, Synergy IT Solutions, for Mississauga (http://www.synergyit.ca/printer_repair.shtml). Housecall service was reasonably priced and the machine is running perfectly.
IMHO, any Canadian who buys cameras, lenses or printer hardware/gear in Canada needs their head examined most of the time. Very occasionally, I can price match in Canada. VERY occasionally... But that's the attitude you develop when you live 12 miles from the border, and have a good internet connection.
If you are a low-volume printer like me and don't want to mess with colour profiling, the Z is the way to go, for many, many reasons. When the z3100 finally bites the dust, a z3200B is in my plans
Leigh
zippski
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Interesting responses generating a big "WTF?" from this long-time Canadian HP z-fan.
This Canadian in Niagara has had zero problems with recommending either repairing his z3100, or buying a new z3200, or servicing either.
Rule 1: Always buy in the US and ship it over from Altex (or one of the other commercial printer resellers in Ohio or New York) Why pay 50% more to buy in Canada? I paid something like US$1595 for mine brand new, had it trucked to the border, and paid only the HST on the way through.
Rule 2: Service is out there for HP. Yes, in Canada.
Good service, at that. I had the z3100 belt fail in 2012. A quick google search and a couple of calls gave me a choice of three service providers in the greater Toronto area. I chose a good one for a house call, Synergy IT Solutions, for Mississauga (http://www.synergyit.ca/printer_repair.shtml). Housecall service was reasonably priced and the machine is running perfectly.
IMHO, any Canadian who buys cameras, lenses or printer hardware/gear in Canada needs their head examined most of the time. Very occasionally, I can price match in Canada. VERY occasionally... But that's the attitude you develop when you live 12 miles from the border, and have a good internet connection.
If you are a low-volume printer like me and don't want to mess with colour profiling, the Z is the way to go, for many, many reasons. When the z3100 finally bites the dust, a z3200B is in my plans
Leigh
zippski
I guess you have pretty useless Canadian photo shops in your location. There is a specific shop in the Vancouver area that consistently beats B&H pricing and is great to deal with. Personally, driving through customs to save a few bucks on a Saturday afternoon is just no my cup of tea...I value my time much more than that...especially when shopping local actually saves me money. YMMV.
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Justan, I was aware that B&H seemed to be the only exception regarding shipping to Canada. I did not mention it to avoid muddying the thrust of the discussion.
There may be several vendors who ship to Canada. I didn't investigate but technically there may not be any restrictions as far as customs is concerned.
...it does raise the issue of warranties and the important extended warranty. Is that going to be a B&H warranty or an HP one and is it enforceable in Canada.
I don’t know if B&H or other 3rd party vendors would or would not offer an extended warranty on anyone’s printer. I know that 3rd parties may offer a service contract, which can be close, but not identical to a factory warranty. Personally I’d be disinclined to get a 3rd party instead of a manufacturer’s warranty if all was equal.
In an earlier conversation with HP, about their factory extended warranty, they did not care about the printer except that their warranty would have to be in place (read that sold and paid for) for 30 days or > before they would honor one of their extended warranties. At that point they'd honor the contract, and tech support would send out whoever was their local support contractor to do the work.
Another possibility would be a service contract from a local vendor. That would be between you and the vendor but I’d get the details spelled out for exactly what is covered before committing to something like that. A factory warranty would cover nearly everything and a service contract covers only what is specified. Some service contracts may actually be more inclusive than factory warranties but usually this only happens when the customer has a lot of support contracts through the vendor. After all, everyone wants to please their biggest customers. The devil is in the details. You can also shop warranties. With a manufacturer's warranty such as HP, they (HP) will provide a part number and not all vendors sell that part for the same amount. The same would be true for all printer warranties and it always pays to shop.
There are so many concerns that I say to my self that I do not need to struggle with this and hence my intent to move to Canon, purchased locally.
There is something very good about buying locally, but given the options available, it may not be the least expensive choice.
For someone like the OP, I consider it appropriate to raise concerns about the longevity of HPs graphic arts business at least in Canada.
This is a very good question. My knee jerk reaction is that as long as there is a warranty for the item from the manufacturer available, they are legally bound to support the printer. That would include consumables. One could call HP or any manufacturer and ask them about that kind of thing expressly. They likely have a written policy.
And yet, it is conceivable that the manufacturer can cause supply problems for inks and print heads at some point if the printer is discontinued. I do know that for Dell (as example) as soon as a computer model they make ceases production, unless one has or buys a warranty, they are not going to be able to get parts for it from Dell. I would not be surprised if this were an industry standard..............................
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The whole issue may be moot.
I looked at Atlex, Lexjet, ITSupplies, and B&H and the plain vanilla Z3200 looks like it has been discontinued for both 24" and 44" models.
The PS variant is still supposed to be available but I wonder how long for and is there going to be a new model to take the place of the Z3200. Somehow the 5400 does not seem to fit the bill.
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Hi all,
so my trusted z3100 finally broke down. 6 years of very good service. I know it can be fixed, but i am not sure it is worth it. i have not kept up with the state of printing machines over last few years. What are the highest rated machines out there today if I wanted to buy a new one? The "new" Canons, are they worth it?
TIA,
Amnon
If all the z3100 needs is the belt, you need to do it yourself. It's not that big of a deal.
The #1 reason NOT to buy another HP z3200 is the cost of the inks. HP foolishly discontinued the twin packs, and I've noticed steady increases in the single carts. The inks for the Canon ipf8300/ipf8400 are a MUCH better deal, and the Canon carts actually hold a useful quantity of ink (330ml or 700ml). If you can get a deal on the Canon ipf8400, get it. I picked up a 44" ipf8300 for around $2200 back when Canon was about to bring out the ipf8400. It's all around better than the z3100 in all ways but 3: The z has the built in spectro, the z can make true neutral tone B&W prints using no color inks, and the z uses a gloss enhancer. You'll never quite eliminate gloss differential on the Canon for that reason. I print my satin and glossy photo prints on the z3100. Everything else goes to the Canon. The Canon is insanely faster, and the software blows away the clunky HP software. Productivity definitely went up when I got the Canon. You should definitely fix the z, though, because for not much time and / or money you can use the z for printing, or just use the spectro on the z to build custom profiles for the Canon. It works great and they are better than the canned profiles from the paper manufacturers or retailers.
All around, if I was forced to pick one of the other, the larger carts and better deal on the Canon ink, plus the speed and efficiency of the Canon, would make it my choice. Still like having both, though. The z has some real strengths.
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I have gone from a z3200 to a canon iPF8300 and i cant be happier.
the paper handling is much better because the roll is in the front.
the print quality is slightly better on photo paper, and majorly better on canvas.
its much faster, but that is no big deal for me. what really impresses me is the quality modes to improve image quality. this guy here details it. http://www.on-sight.com/2010/04/25/canon-x300-printer-review/
what i liked better on the HP is the minimum sheet lenght was less than 6 inches, 8 inches for the canon.
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And he test HP and EPSON with Canon paper!??
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i saw that too, and i saw the review after i got the printer. but you should know that most high quality papers dont come from the OEM, such as Canson, hahnemuhle.
Since I got the canon I've been using my remaining HP photo paper as well as some canon photo paper, both types produced incredible results. I am also amazed with the results from some third party canvas that i don't even know brand name. :)
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+1 for what Roscolo said. I moved from the z3100 to an iPF8300 (also at a very favorable price) and am happy with the switch. I never had a maintenance call on the Z and was very satisfied with the machine. Things I like about the Canon are the front mount of the rolls (always had to pull the Z away from the wall), the print plug-in, larger ink tanks, faster speed, and it is built like a tank. Zero issues with this machine so far as well, but I am not a high volume printer. Crwoo's comments are spot on as well. The biggest factor for me is that both of these machines handle intermittent printing very well without clogs. I can't overstate how big an issue that becomes with the wrong machine.
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The #1 reason NOT to buy another HP z3200 is the cost of the inks. HP foolishly discontinued the twin packs, and I've noticed steady increases in the single carts.
A firmware upgrade that allows the use of the 300ML carts of the Z5200 on the Z3200 would be welcome. That range of carts covers the most consumed inks on the Z3200.
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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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A firmware upgrade that allows the use of the 300ML carts of the Z5200 on the Z3200 would be welcome. That range of carts covers the most consumed inks on the Z3200.
Will the 5300 carts physically fit in the 3200 Ernst?
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Will the 5300 carts physically fit in the 3200 Ernst?
Yes, the doors will nog close but that's all.
Ernst, op de lei getypt.
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Ernst , could you not just buy the large inks and fill the z3100 cartridges with it? as with the HP9180?
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We could but inserting a Z5200 cart is much easier than refilling other carts with the content of a Z5200 cart. If people abandon the Z3200 because the ink is expensive then HP should consider that firmware upgrade. We want Vivera pigment in that printer, not a third party ink.
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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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You could slide the HP70 ink chip out of the old carts and replace the one in the 5200 carts.
That should work providing the 3200 carts are not totally empty.
This is great, I will keep a look out for cheap 5200 carts as well now.
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How about just changing the chips in the carts:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/720487331/Permanent_chip_for_hp_Designjet_Z3100.html
It works great on HP ProB 9180 and I am thinking for some time about that, I was just not sure if carts physically fit in printer, but it is also possible to exchange entire lower part of cart replacing it with lower part from old used regular cart in which chip was changed. It is not difficult to do that at all.
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You got it. But the difficult part is reliable third party chips for 12 inks. As written before I rather see a firmware change so it can accept 5200 carts next to the HP70 carts.
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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
January 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.