Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Lorenzo Pierucci on December 22, 2013, 11:34:50 am
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Hi everybody, :)
first i will like to thanks all the user of this forum: in the past years always a great source of info.
My dilemma:
after a good year in the architectural photography ( shoot mostly D800+nikon14-24 ) i will like to push quality up a bit, especially from perspective point of view.
I own a Valeo 22, which give me great files in studio. I will like to use this sensor on the architectural work but, as Mamiya AFD user, looks that the 35mm AF is not a great option ( and rare on ebay ).
I'm looking at some LF plus sliding back ( for do some stitching too ). Looks that Toyo might be the cheapest option. But i will really thankful for any though about system and lens.
Thanks !
Lorenzo
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Lorenzo,
The real trick is that most view cameras are built for Large format and can't focus really wide lenses for shooting architecture. You need to go at least as wide as a 35mm lens and very few view cameras will focus it (especially with a sliding back). You also get into the issue that almost no view cameras are built to the demanding tolerances that digital backs demand.
Tech cameras easily beat out view cameras for precision. You can definitely find cheap 4x5s on eBay and adapt them to digital backs, but in my experience, the headaches are just not worth it. I've been shooting architecture with view cameras (both film and digital) for 20 years, so believe me... I've been around the block on this.
I would recommend that you at least try tilt/shift lenses on your dslr before making that leap. You will see a world of difference over your wide zoom.
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I shot architecture for several years with a Valeo 22wi and a Linhof Techno and a Schneider Digitar 5.6/35mm. The results were very good, but handling was pretty tedious because of the need to tether the back if you wanted live view or image reviews. I had a Macbook Air 11" mounted to the tripod via a Manfrotto Magic Arm and a little platform. The good thing about the Valeo, compared to more recent backs, is that it can be powered from the Macbook via the Tunderbolt-Firewire adapter, no need for an external power supply via a Firewire hub. The downside is that you are bound to the quite ancient Leaf Capture for live view (but live view works really well with the Valeo and LC!).
When browsing through ebay and the Luminous Landscape and getDpi for sale forums recently, I saw quite a lot of offers for relatively cheap Cambo Wides and Horseman SW-Ds, which seem to be good cameras for architecture (both really designed for use with wide angle lenses and rise/fall/shift only, no tilt without special add-ons). I have no personal experience with those cameras, but it surely would be a huge step up from the DSLR, if you get a Schneider or Rodenstock 35mm or something similar.
hope that information is useful for you,
best,
Gebhard
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there are some film cameras, that will work with digi baks also: for example Arca swiss F69 or linhof master technika, 2000 or 3000.
some guys use still technikardan 23 and 4x5 wih d.backs. Of course Techno or Arca swiss M2 would be better, but also much more expensive.
To Cambo wds/wrs: the cameras are cheap, but the lenses even used twice the price of an lens in usual copal shutter. Important point are also really good sliding backs, forget the china stuff.
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Hi Lorenzo:
The reality of the situation is that to improve on the quality you can get with the Nikon D800 is going to take a LOT of money. In short you are looking at a technical camera system, lens/lenses and digital back. The problem is that if you intend to use wide angle lenses you need a technical camera. It gives you the ability to mount down to a 23mm lens (that fully covers the sensor of all medium format digital backs) and helps you accurately and consistently achieve perfect focus and movements.
Arca Swiss (what I have) offers some great camera platforms, Cambo as well and Alpa ($$$). Contact a dealer for details (I used Digital Transition in NY). You have to think of it as a system (Lens, Camera Body, Digital back) and the dealer will help you put something together that works great together and helps you achieve what you want to do.
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I shot architecture for several years with a Valeo 22wi and a Linhof Techno and a Schneider Digitar 5.6/35mm. The results were very good, but handling was pretty tedious because of the need to tether the back if you wanted live view or image reviews. I had a Macbook Air 11" mounted to the tripod via a Manfrotto Magic Arm and a little platform. The good thing about the Valeo, compared to more recent backs, is that it can be powered from the Macbook via the Tunderbolt-Firewire adapter, no need for an external power supply via a Firewire hub.
Thanks so much for the feedback, of course open new questions:
I have a Mac Air 22 and i can't power it via thunderbolt + adaptor, seems there is not enough power, plus i can't use live view without a mysterious usb dongle. Is the valeo 22wi different?
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I would recommend that you at least try tilt/shift lenses on your dslr before making that leap. You will see a world of difference over your wide zoom.
Thanks Chris for the feedback. I was thinking about tilt shift plus stitching on my DSLR systems: for my mamiya AFD is kind of out of budget ( the TS lens is way to expensive ). But the nikon one can be ok.
I think i know how to move lens and body to do appropriate stitch but: how can i move a camera on tripod if is not a 4X5 technical camera with all the movement knobs ? There is any tripod head specific for this?
Thanks again :)
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Important point are also really good sliding backs, forget the china stuff.
Mmm.. i will keep this I'm mind. Thanks a lot, i was look at chinese one actually…. ;D
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Why not do spherical stitching with your D800 and a top lens like the Zeiss 55mm f1.4?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Why not do spherical stitching with your D800 and a top lens like the Zeiss 55mm f1.4?
Cheers,
Bernard
Thanks for the idea Bernard, i shoot mostly interiors, I'm not sure that spherical stitching will not distort lines… I'm look into that. :)
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Thanks for the idea Bernard, i shoot mostly interiors, I'm not sure that spherical stitching will not distort lines… I'm look into that. :)
It won't as long as you select a planar projection and use either PTgui Pro or Autopano Giga.
2 rows of 3 vertical images with a good 50mm lense will emulate a 24mm very well.
You can if course use more frames or use a 35mm like the Sigma f1.4 to speed things up when you need to go wider. Corner quality will be hard to distinguish from the center.
You will need a pano head from a vendor like Really Right Stuff for best results.
Cheers,
Bernard
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It won't as long as you select a planar projection and use either PTgui Pro or Autopano Giga.
2 rows of 3 vertical images with a good 50mm lense will emulate a 24mm very well.
You can if course use more frames or use a 35mm like the Sigma f1.4 to speed things up when you need to go wider. Corner quality will be hard to distinguish from the center.
You will need a pano head from a vendor like Really Right Stuff for best results.
Cheers,
Bernard
Thanks again Bernard
This sound interesting, my goal is to get the equivalent of a 20-24 mm on 35mm.
But i have this medium format back on a AFD. I will be able to do same with a lens ( stellar as everybody says ) as the 55mm AF.
I was also looking at the 50mm PC, that have shift ability. Any though?
Thanks, thanks and thanks again!
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If budget is important, you can buy a Olympus OM 35 mm shift lens, which is really good, see the Alpa Homepage, they have a test shot of it to compare it to other MF view lenses. You can convert this lens for Nikon mount. You can use it for flat stich or as a shift lens on its own. This lens is around 300-500 Euro on Ebay and a jewel.
Everything else is much more expensive. I know of people who use it with the Alpa camera and Sinar used it with their digibacks also.
Best,
Johannes
Great thanks! I looking into it. but it won't be better the mamiya 50mm PC on my Valeo 22 MP? ???
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Thanks so much for the feedback, of course open new questions:
I have a Mac Air 22 and i can't power it via thunderbolt + adaptor, seems there is not enough power, plus i can't use live view without a mysterious usb dongle. Is the valeo 22wi different?
Hm, very strange, you can see some photos of my setup with a 2012 Macbook Air 11" connected to the Valeo 22wi via firewire, plus the USB live view dongle here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/15njf94vxy8iu4l/gxXVVn1k9l
BTW, I made these photos yesterday because I am selling the Leaf USB live view dongle (I already sold the Valeo 22wi). In case you're interested, head over to:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=85392.0
best,
geb
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Thanks again Bernard
This sound interesting, my goal is to get the equivalent of a 20-24 mm on 35mm.
But i have this medium format back on a AFD. I will be able to do same with a lens ( stellar as everybody says ) as the 55mm AF.
Yes, of course. You can do spherical stitching with a back also and the 55mm may be an excellent choise. My personal experience with Mamiya lenses is limited to the 28mm, 35mm and 80mm, all pretty good.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Wow! there is a lot of info going on here. Thanks guys :)
jsch: i will definitely give a try to this Olympus 35, reading around about it looks is the real deal ( and really cheap on ebay )
gebseng: thanks for all the info, the photo of your setup make me realize a couple of key factor. It might be my favorite choice, as i already own a DB, to use beside my D800 for "light work "
Bernard: i will look into it. I just feel that this nodal stitching can't be compare to a real plane stitching.
My goal is to have the LARGE FORMAT LOOK, captured in digital. So shooting a 45mm lens with a DB stitching 2 frame on the longest side ( so should be a 8x3 ratio more or less )
I think this is the best solution, or is just more the headache then the gain?
Thanks again
Lorenzo
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Bernard: i will look into it. I just feel that this nodal stitching can't be compare to a real plane stitching.
Give it a try.
Having done very rigorous comparisons, I am 100% sure that the only differences you will see result from the much higher degree of technical perfection with spherical stitching.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I am 100% sure that the only differences you will see result from the much higher degree of technical perfection with spherical stitching.
So tempting ! :D
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Give it a try.
Having done very rigorous comparisons, I am 100% sure that the only differences you will see result from the much higher degree of technical perfection with spherical stitching.
I agree with Bernard. The individual tiles only use the center of the image circle, unlike with a shifted single lens. One also has the option to use a slightly longer focal length, thus increasing magnification and resolution. The results should be superior.
Cheers,
Bart
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The results should be superior.
I will definitely give it a try. And i guess my set up will be Mamiya AFD + 55mm or 80 mm. Cause i really want to use the MF sensor.
But still, i feel attracted by the large format technical camera. Even the Cheap Toyo 23 is out of the reach for me now ( Arca and Linhof not even mentioned ). But i saw a Calumet wide, able to mount 47mm, that plus a my Veleo on a slide, will not give a better image?
Sorry if i keep beating on this guys, but i shoot in studio both D800 and Valeo ( more then 10 years older sensor ! ), and the file that come out from that sensor are just "client shocker".
Thanks for all the input, learned a lot!
Merry Christmas
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I'm really not into stitching... my post-production workflow is already almost always backed up. I have to wonder though on shifting versus nodal... wouldn't the interpolation required to straighten and align the various images outweigh the benefit of using the center of the lens?
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wouldn't the interpolation required to straighten and align the various images outweigh the benefit of using the center of the lens?
+1
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Spherical stitching is very powerful, a good stitching head and tune it well for the nodal point and you get great results. I've have one myself for my DSLR. Nowadays I would only use it if my Schneider Digitar 35mm on the Techno would not be wide enough for a shot.
To me it's not really about quality but about workflow, I like to capture the scene in one shot. But if you'd want the highest possible quality at a budget, spherical stitching is clearly unbeatable. Post-processing work can be quite much more though as you need to manage many files, but if you're very structured in the workflow and use the fastest software it can be quite smooth.
I've also tried a 4x5 camera with wides. I'd say that focusing is not the main problem if you use some tricks (pre-focus at a fixed distance, have a strong flashlight in dark environments, using a very strong loupe etc), however parallelism can be an issue, ie it's quite likely that the front or back standard is put out of alignment so you get a fuzzy side. Most will certainly want to shoot tethered when using a view camera, due to ground glass darkness with wides in indoor environments. If you can shoot tethered it can be done say with a Sinar X in good condition and super-recessed boards, but it won't be that smooth. Compared to stitching it could be argued that it still would be smoother as you get less files to work with in post-processing.
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I'm really not into stitching... my post-production workflow is already almost always backed up. I have to wonder though on shifting versus nodal... wouldn't the interpolation required to straighten and align the various images outweigh the benefit of using the center of the lens?
You can battle that with using a longer focal length and stitch more frames... but then you get even more files to deal with in post-processing.
You can configure the stitching programs how you want to stretch, if you output fewer megapixels you can make sure that's there's no enlarging of pixels, only making them smaller. But then you get fewer megapixels, so you need more in the input, ie more frames.
The main drawbacks of stitching I'd say is 1) many files to deal with more data and more post-processing, 2) scene movement can be messy to handle.
If lots of professionals actually worked with stitching I think the workflows could be a lot smoother then they are today, imagine motorized heads with realtime tethered stitching and a new virtual raw readily stitched so you get only one file to deal with, but I don't think stitching is fully there yet.
You might also want to use HDR techniques on top and then you get even more frames to merge.
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Most will certainly want to shoot tethered when using a view camera, due to ground glass darkness with wides in indoor environments. If you can shoot tethered it can be done say with a Sinar X in good condition and super-recessed boards, but it won't be that smooth.
Tethered was my plan, especially for the focus ( btw the live view for Valeo is only available with a USB dongle that i just bought from a user of this forum… 3 days and i love this forum so much ;D )
Thanks torger this was also really useful !
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I'm really not into stitching... my post-production workflow is already almost always backed up. I have to wonder though on shifting versus nodal... wouldn't the interpolation required to straighten and align the various images outweigh the benefit of using the center of the lens?
As always, there are trade-offs:
Flat-stitching with a lens that has a weak outer image circle, you end up with softness/smearing/falloff in the outer image.
Rotation-stitching w/ too wide of a lens, you get perspective stretching of the grain/texture/detail of each frame, giving weird results between frames. If you overlap more, you do more work.
Rotation stitch with a longer lens, you eliminate the perspective stretching between frames and interpolation losses, but have a longer shooting process.
If you use a large sensor and an amazing lens, you get the shot in one, but spend a ton of money.
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If you use a large sensor and an amazing lens, you get the shot in one, but spend a ton of money.
This pretty sum all...
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I just back from a shooting in the Taipei 101, lot of glass tons of reflections: ergo a lot of different exposures merged, flagging different reflections and killing lights. This is a case where the stitching will definitely be a problem.
This push me more on the 4x5 camera plus 40 something - 20 something lens…