Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: msongs on December 10, 2013, 08:00:13 pm
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we bought this stuff and when it is rolled on with even the lightest touch it smears the inks on 3 different test images. we use a canon 8300 and let the inks dry for more than 24 hours before varnishing. no matter how lightly we roll, ink comes off on the foam rollers and when the roller crosses an already rolled area it ruins the picture.
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Timeless I feel is best sprayed. HLVP. It can be rolled but due to the very short drying time and non-leveling characteristics it is hard to work with when rolled. Glamour II will be much easier to roll.
Paul Caldwell
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Our finish of choice and we use a ton of it.
No problems but then we spray.
Paul hit it on the button If you have to roll then use glamor II.
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I roll Timeless, both Satin and Matte and have no problem. I can print in the morning and roll about eight hours later in most cases, although my workflow usually sets my rolling for the next day. Make sure you stir it for at least three minutes. If it's cold in my work room, sometimes I'll warm the Timeless up a bit. I do roll it on quickly, pressing heavy at first and then lighter strokes until there's no pressure for the last few strokes.
Sounds like you may have the wrong profile selected for the print. It may be laying down too much ink and doesn't get a chance to dry.
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I use the profile that the canvas maker provides (lexjet) and have been rolling varnishes for years. unfortunately this stuff is $150 a gallon incl shipping and that is a lot to dump in the trash. breathing color charged us a lot more to ship TO us than it would cost to ship the same package back using UPS so the shipping was almost as much as the product. Watched their videos online and am doing it like they said. tried this stuff because lexjet brand yellows too much.
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I switched from Timeless to Clearshield Type C Satin. I just wasn't skilled enough to lay down timeless flawlessly. I spray also. Clearshield gallon shipped from IT Supplies gets to my house in 2 days and total about $110 with shipping. I love the finish and the flexibility this coating gives me.
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I switched from Timeless to Clearshield Type C Satin. I just wasn't skilled enough to lay down timeless flawlessly. I spray also. Clearshield gallon shipped from IT Supplies gets to my house in 2 days and total about $110 with shipping. I love the finish and the flexibility this coating gives me.
Msongs, I don't see where you have mentioned exactly which media you are printing on? I saw Lexjet, but specifically which? And you mentioned that you are using Lexjet's profile, but what about the media type setting in the driver? This is what has most control of ink usage on a given print.
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I roll Timeless, both Satin and Matte and have no problem. I can print in the morning and roll about eight hours later in most cases, although my workflow usually sets my rolling for the next day. Make sure you stir it for at least three minutes. If it's cold in my work room, sometimes I'll warm the Timeless up a bit. I do roll it on quickly, pressing heavy at first and then lighter strokes until there's no pressure for the last few strokes.
Sounds like you may have the wrong profile selected for the print. It may be laying down too much ink and doesn't get a chance to dry.
You print on an Epson right? Just wondering if there is an issue with the Canon inks. Are any of the other's who posted using a Canon, maybe could clarify.
I never tried it when I was using a Canon 6100, but had no trouble with it when I did try it for a few prints after moving back to an Epson 7900. This was sometime ago, so I used glamour 2 on the Chromata product. Decided canvas wasn't for me so never tried the Lyve or timeless.
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to print I use lexjet's settings for the specific canvas l, also using the specific color profile
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Which canvas and settings?
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I used the spray version on a dye transfer back in the 70's. It messed up the surface over time.
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dye trasfer to what substrate?
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No problems here rolling Timeless, using Breathing Colour's 'Lyve' canvas with either my own or BC's profile on an iPF8300 and in varying temperatures and humidity.
Finished prints I spray with a Fuji HVLP system but, when proofing for final adjustments, and frequently after as little as 15 min curing time, I apply 'stale' diluted Timeless left over from previous jobs with a roller, using the recommended method of heavy strokes initially then finishing with passes using only the weight of the roller. There is some very slight ink lifting after such a short drying time, but this is only apparent as a faint darkening of the roller and has no visible effects on the print.
The only issue I sometimes have with sprayed Timeless, especially in cold weather, is in its tendency for the droplets to form small clumps rather than flowing together evenly, giving a slightly 'granular' appearance to the coating, but I suspect that is probably at least partially due to a sub-optimal adjustment of the gun for the ambient conditions and is something that requires further experimentation.
I would have no problem hand rolling smaller prints with Timeless if necessary, but I suspect it might be more difficult to achieve a flawless finish on large prints due to its fast drying time. Overall, I think Glamour II is easier to work with, and I shall probably revert to that for the majority of my canvas prints.
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I used the spray version on a dye transfer back in the 70's. It messed up the surface over time.
In the 70s? You used the spray version of what? On which substrate?
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we bought this stuff and when it is rolled on with even the lightest touch it smears the inks on 3 different test images.
I'm guessing you're using a microporous surface like an RC paper that's not compatible with any water based varnish? You need to use a media (like canvas) that's compatible with these varnish products.
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canvas is lexjet sunset select matte and the driver setting is the one lexjet provides for that canvas type
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canvas is lexjet sunset select matte and the driver setting is the one lexjet provides for that canvas type
Using Matte (MK) ink?
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I've used Timeless a while now and only had one or two problems like you describe, early on. I learned pretty quick to roll one heavy coat first and then let it dry a good long while, an hour or two. Soak the roller really well and then pour a half pint or so directly on the center of the canvas and roll out from the puddle to the edges. Don't over work the coating, just get it covered and stop. Then another lighter coat volume wise or two if needed, you can lean on the roller pretty hard at this point. I have found that if the rollers don't roll quite easily then they will slide on the canvas scuffing the surface and move ink around. So you really need to clean the holder so it doesn't drag the roller.
I've since gone the HVLP spray route, just so much better, easer and quicker.
Later Larry
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Wow, I haven't used that particular canvas but that's surprising to hear that you seeing that kind of smudging. I can vouch that Timeless and the 8300 inks are both great for this process. Moving to HVLP might be a smart move on several levels.
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If your first pass is smearing ink, use a special first-pass mixture with your normal coating diluted by about 1/2 with water. Coatings are a weak solvent for inks, but water is not. Put that first coating on fast, and be sure you're not scrubbing the surface with the roller. Think how roller bearings work between two pieces of metal...no rubbing, no scrubbing, just rolling. Pressing creates scrubbing from the foam spreading out, so go easy with the pressing on the first pass. But after that first pass, press as hard as you want.
Fact of life...8300 inks are a little more coating soluble than most, if you're rolling you should seal the surface with that diluted first coat. That's especially true for glossy canvas, much less so with matte.
As so many have said, HVLP is bliss, if you have a space for it.
Edit...start with a wet but not too wet foam roller. Just hold it under the hot water faucet for a few seconds, squeeze out the excess water. Helps keep down the bubbles. Don't worry too much about the finish on the first pass, little puddles will level out over several minutes. The thin mixture will permeate the whole thickness of the canvas, for fastest drying you can hang the print up on a clothes line or such to expose the back to air, much faster drying than with the print on the table. Or hang the print from the edge of a table with good masking tape, that works too. But do the coating with the print on a table of relatively horizontal flat surface.
If you get eyelashes, cat hairs, or general crud on that first coat, just wait until the print dries and you can easily whisk off the crud with your fingers. Never a good idea to go poking at a wet print, IMHO. One advantage to thin coats is you can pick off each coat's dirt when that coat is dry, rather than marring a thickly coated wet print with tweezers. It's a trade off.
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I work in a fairly cool and very humid environment (usually 80% or >), and use the same canvas as the OP. Due to the combined elements of temperature and humidity, I let works dry after printing for 3 days before coating.
I roll on Glamour II (G2) and have always had great results. I recently coated a few works using G2 gloss only plus the suggested water dilution and the results absolutely sparkle. I also let these dry for 3 to 5 days at about 65 degrees (F) before doing anything else with them.
If you continue to have problems at least try a pint of G2 gloss. The cost of continued problems and wasted tests can quickly be more than the cost of the Timeless.
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Yup, G2 Gloss is a marvel all by itself. The high gloss may not be appropriate for gallery wraps where the combination of ripples and highlighted edges can look tacky due to out of control highlights from lights in the display space. But for canvas absolutely flatly mounted on Gator the super gloss look is sensational. My ultra glossy canvases pieces are in several locations next to facemounted pieces, where my mounted canvas makes the facemounted pieces look like plastic they are. If I do say so myself.
One small issue with G2 is that even the gloss version does have a bit of residual something in it that slightly masks the image, like Dan's excellent wax paper analogy. Those who are looking for a real high gamut thrill with a low, low Dmax might want to investigate some of the ultra clear (and difficult to use) varnishes down at Home Depot. But don't try to stretch that stuff, too brittle. The slight G2 haze probably comes from stuff designed for stretchability, and it's a good compromise for gallery wrappers. Super clear coatings also boost the gamut of canvas up into the Baryta range if you profile coated targets, but of course that won't happen with matte or even slightly hazed coatings.
Agree with Justan about drying time before coating. Even is bone-dry New Mexico I like to wait at least 24 hours before coating, and much more if it's been raining. Next time you coat, look at the darkest areas at an angle when the coating is dry. If you can see a distinct difference in the quality of reflections between light and dark areas, the dark areas are still wet under the coating, which can't be good thing.
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Welcome back Bill,missed your wit and wisdom.
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Welcome back Bill,missed your wit and wisdom.
+1
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tried this stuff because lexjet brand yellows too much.
I've yet to notice any yellowing issues with the LexJet coatings. Are you speaking about problems you notice immediately, or over time?
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I first started off using gloss but wow you put any light to it and you can't even see the actual image if you're looking directly at it. You kind of have to look at it at an angle to see the photo. That's the only reason why I went down to matte coating.
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You want to use a relatively smooth canvas for gloss. If the peaks and valleys of the weave are too steep, you get objectionable highlight reflections from the rounded edges of the deep weave. Fredrix 777 has a very fine weave, but very limited gamut and lots of OBA's. Can't get a non-orange red out of it. Currently Sunset Select has a pretty steep weave which makes it not the best choice for gloss, but some recent samples were much smoother. But disregarding weave and OBA issues, Sunset Select shows an awesome amount of gamut and excellent color when profiled from super-clear gloss targets. Very few canvases can cover reds, violets and blues better than glossy Sunset Select.
Canson Museum Art is a pretty good gloss candidate, only 15 mils thick and very smooth with a non-directional texture. You need to build super-gloss profiles to bring the OBA-free emulsion up to truly impressive gamut proportions, it's has a pretty poor gamut when profiled from uncoated targets. Very consistent surface, Canson has excellent QC in regards to surface and weave, and everything else for that matter.
If BC would bring out a smooth canvas with their Lyve coating, it would be great stuff. But the current Lyve weave is too coarse for high gloss, you get terrible reflections when viewing glossy Lyve prints off center when the dominant texture is vertical, and when a print is hung on the wall with the dominant weave texture oriented left-right overhead lighting will haze it out. Bottom line...glossy needs smooth, which is why the so-called Epson Natural Gloss with its deep, coarse weave is so pointless.
The enemy of glossy canvas is of course the "hey Mom! I'm printed on CANVAS!" attitude of most canvas manufacturers. I like canvas not because is looks "like oil paintings" or some such nonsense, but because is easy to handle in large sizes, and because it allows the creation of very large pieces that don't weight a ton. Basically, the same reasons painters like it. So can we please minimize the weave, it's OK, really!
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had a chat with lexjet and they told me the varnish they sold me was not suitable for sunset select. ok then why did they not say that when I ordered the canvas and the "incompatible" varnish at the same time? the yellowing issue is the only reason I bought some Timeless in the first place
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I first started off using gloss but wow you put any light to it and you can't even see the actual image if you're looking directly at it. You kind of have to look at it at an angle to see the photo. That's the only reason why I went down to matte coating.
I started using gloss after using a matte finish for some time. Someone here suggested it. I roll on a single coat of G2 and that makes a difference, compared to spraying. Generally, rolling the media produces a heaver coat than spraying. Of course it is possible to apply a pretty heavy coat by spraying, but one would best use multiple lighter coats, spay while the target is lying flat, or risk runs. Anywho, a heaver coat fills in more of the valleys and using a roller can compress the peaks a little as well. Even with a heavier coat, a gloss finish isn’t suitable for everything, imo.
had a chat with lexjet and they told me the varnish they sold me was not suitable for sunset select. ok then why did they not say that when I ordered the canvas and the "incompatible" varnish at the same time? the yellowing issue is the only reason I bought some Timeless in the first place
Many vendors are remarkably not forthcoming about the fine print (too god a pun to pass) when selling products; and then they are often good at pointing fingers away from themselves. Hope they offered a refund or similar. Only time I’ve seen yellowing with Sunset Select is when the G2 or canvas was contaminated. My oldest canvas works are about 4 years and no one has reported any complaints.
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The enemy of glossy canvas is of course the "hey Mom! I'm printed on CANVAS!" attitude of most canvas manufacturers. I like canvas not because is looks "like oil paintings" or some such nonsense, but because is easy to handle in large sizes, and because it allows the creation of very large pieces that don't weight a ton. Basically, the same reasons painters like it. So can we please minimize the weave, it's OK, really!
Canvas is also an economical way to produce large works because with a good veneer coating it doesn’t require acrylic or glass. As you know, this is a key detail to relay to the customer. Most customers gush over the painting-like results that canvas produces, too. For the ones that want a traditional foto finish, i offer Hahnemühle Photo Rag Baryta, and (gasp) acrylic over the top, at a substantial premium. But it would be great to find a good minimal weave that got along with G2. There are probably some significant engineering issues that lead to the to the typical canvas presentation.
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( Those who are looking for a real high gamut thrill with a low, low Dmax might want to investigate some of the ultra clear (and difficult to use) varnishes down at Home Depot.)
Hi Bill
What's the brand of those Home Depot Varnishes you mentioned?
Hugo